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View Full Version : Wagner on the block??



MasonBuzz3
03-30-2006, 03:09 PM
According to the Cincinnati Enquirer, Reds scouts suspect that Ryan Wagner might be available through a trade.

Some team needs to go get him. As things stand now, it appears that the Reds are leaning toward carrying Mike Burns over him on their Opening Day roster.
rotoworld.com

I hope that the Reds aren't shopping Wagner, unless they are looking to get a solid starter in return for him. I know Wagner has struggled at the big league level, but it would seem a little early to give up on him with the lack of quality arms in the Reds system.

savafan
03-30-2006, 03:12 PM
Taking a relief pitcher in the first round of the draft was a foolish thing to do. I said that then, and I say that now.

Red Leader
03-30-2006, 03:15 PM
Taking a relief pitcher in the first round of the draft was a foolish thing to do. I said that then, and I say that now.

I completely agree.

Oh, and Mason-what SP would you give up for a young reliever that hasn't produced at the MLB level for an extended period of time?

If he's moved, I would think he'd be packaged with someone else to increase the value on the Reds' side. Womack, Denorfia, one of the catchers?

MasonBuzz3
03-30-2006, 03:17 PM
i agree that Wagne would have to be packaged with other players to bring anything back of value. A straight up trade involving Wagner would bring back nothing but the same, most likely a young player who has yet to produce at the major league level

i also agree that selecting a reliever high in the draft is foolish, however the rushing of Wagner to the bigs most likely hindered his development

BRM
03-30-2006, 03:20 PM
I completely agree.

Oh, and Mason-what SP would you give up for a young reliever that hasn't produced at the MLB level for an extended period of time?

If he's moved, I would think he'd be packaged with someone else to increase the value on the Reds' side. Womack, Denorfia, one of the catchers?

Adding Womack decreases the value on the Reds side. Denorfia or Valentin/Larue might add enough value.

SeeinRed
03-30-2006, 03:21 PM
Wagner himself will not pull in a solid starting pitcher. But I wouldn't mind seeing him go in a package for another pitcher, starter or closer. I think, without a doubt, there is something in the works. Everyone knows that by now. I personally think that the most likely players to go are catchers, in my opinion Javy is the most likely canidate because of contract. Nobody is really looking for a starting catcher right now, and LaRue's contract is too large for a backup. Might also see an utility player be moved. Freel maybe?

What the Reds would get in return will be interesting. I'm almost more anxious for the days leading up to opening day, and a trade that could go down, than I am for Opening Day. ALMOST.

flyer85
03-30-2006, 03:32 PM
Taking a relief pitcher in the first round of the draft was a foolish thing to do. I said that then, and I say that now.Cordero and Street(1A) look pretty good. That being said I am not sure that relief pitcher is ever a major need. Seemingly looking at an college infielder or starting pitcher would have been the way to go.

Not an impressive draft when you realize Ronda(3rd), Lewis(4th) and Cornell(5th) were wasted picks.

The Red Sox drafted Papelbon in the 4th round that year.

SeeinRed
03-30-2006, 03:42 PM
Taking a relief pitcher in the first round of the draft was a foolish thing to do. I said that then, and I say that now.

To take that one step further, bringing him to the majors the same year he was drafted was a big mistake. Sure he was great in the beginning, but once he started getting hit hard, you could see him loose confidence. Injuries just compound the problem. You cannot throw a young guy in the heat of battle like that. That is just a case of what were they thinking. If we learned one thing from the Bowden era, it is that JimBo really doesn't care about the future unless the future involves "5-tool players." Get Wagners confidence back, you could have a good pitcher. That is easier said than done though.

RedsManRick
03-30-2006, 03:51 PM
Let's just hope that they don't go out and trade him for a "proven closer" -- i.e. a guy who has closed in the past, even if he was basically a league average guy.

flyer85
03-30-2006, 03:54 PM
Let's just hope that they don't go out and trade him for a "proven closer" -- i.e. a guy who has closed in the past, even if he was basically a league average guy.I could see DanO working out a deal to bring in Jose Mesa.

JinAZ
03-30-2006, 03:55 PM
Personally, I think trading Wagner would be a mistake unless the return is excellent. He still has a great deal of potential, and he was extremely unlucky last year (BABIP = 0.346, FIP = 3.81). He's also among the few pitchers on our staff that routinely gets ground balls (64% last year). That, coupled with his (potential for) extremely high strikeout rates means he's exactly the sort of pitcher I'd look for to pitch in our ballpark. Maybe they want to send him down to AAA to "prove" he's throwing well...if so, fine...but the guy could be a huge asset for us this year, as well as many years into the future.
-JinAZ

Jr's Boy
03-30-2006, 04:04 PM
I could see DanO working out a deal to bring in Jose Mesa.
Would have been a step up from what we got.

TeamBoone
03-30-2006, 05:15 PM
I was under the impression that he's had a really good spring. Is that not so?

traderumor
03-30-2006, 05:18 PM
I was under the impression that he's had a really good spring. Is that not so?No, that is the case. But then bullpenners are really hard to judge in the spring because they are frequently facing the other team's scrubs and minor leaguers.

TeamBoone
03-30-2006, 05:29 PM
bullpenners are really hard to judge in the spring because they are frequently facing the other team's scrubs and minor leaguers.

Very true, but it's not like he stunk up the joint. If he had, it certainly would be worse to display suckitude against scrubs and minor leaguers.

We already know that when he's on, he's effective. And he seems to be much improved since getting the shoulder back in shape. Remember last year he started lights out, until the shoulder inflammation.

Because his woes seemed to be due to that, and the fact that he's had a decent spring, I would think they'd want to keep him, even if only in AAA.

traderumor
03-30-2006, 05:34 PM
TB,

I'm in Wagner's camp and watching him Saturday with the Twins, he seemed to have good command again and looked really good.

Chip R
03-30-2006, 05:56 PM
I was under the impression that he's had a really good spring. Is that not so?

He's had good springs the last couple of years too.

VI_RedsFan
03-30-2006, 06:00 PM
Would you guys trade Wagner for Gathright? If that happens, our OF defense gets a lot better with Gathright going to CF, Griffey moving to LF, Kearns staying in RF, and Dunn heading back to 1B. Gathright has CRAZY range, which we need in CF.

BRM
03-30-2006, 06:02 PM
Would you guys trade Wagner for Gathright? If that happens, our OF defense gets a lot better with Gathright going to CF, Griffey moving to LF, Kearns staying in RF, and Dunn heading back to 1B. Gathright has CRAZY range, which we need in CF.

If we are willing to move Griffey to LF and Dunn to 1B, why not do it now and put Denorfia in CF?

SeeinRed
03-30-2006, 06:06 PM
Would you guys trade Wagner for Gathright? If that happens, our OF defense gets a lot better with Gathright going to CF, Griffey moving to LF, Kearns staying in RF, and Dunn heading back to 1B. Gathright has CRAZY range, which we need in CF.

No way Dunn moves back to first on a regular basis at this point. Barring an injury, I also see Griffey in CF all year. That trade also seems to go against what the Reds real problems are anyway. They need pitching, pitching, and more pitching. Maybe a 1st baseman would be good, but not another outfielder, not at this point.

MattyHo4Life
03-30-2006, 06:09 PM
No, that is the case. But then bullpenners are really hard to judge in the spring because they are frequently facing the other team's scrubs and minor leaguers.

I actually agree with you on something TR :) Afterall, even Josh Hancock had a great spring. :)

MattyHo4Life
03-30-2006, 06:13 PM
I don't understand why the Reds would want to trade Wagner right now. His value is low. You won't get a lot for him. There will just be a lot of wolves out there looking to get something for nothing.

traderumor
03-30-2006, 06:20 PM
I actually agree with you on something TR :) Afterall, even Josh Hancock had a great spring. :)You better watch that. I might just have to take a trip over the Post-Dispatch board and do some trolling :p:

BenHayes
03-30-2006, 06:25 PM
Ever since spring training started i've wondered why the reds have pushed someone like rick white ahead of ryan wagner in the pen. I know all about wagner's moaning about his demotion last year but unless the reds can bring in a 93-95 mph closer type for wagner in a deal or a multi player deal involving him and somone else i just can't see pushing him aside because of lack of space. Rick White will never be more than a marginal middle man and cincy has too many of them already on the roster.

MattyHo4Life
03-30-2006, 06:32 PM
You better watch that. I might just have to take a trip over the Post-Dispatch board and do some trolling :p:

Go for it... I don't care for that board much anyways. lol

Just stay away from stlouissportsforum.com :cool:

reds44
03-30-2006, 06:33 PM
Would you guys trade Wagner for Gathright? If that happens, our OF defense gets a lot better with Gathright going to CF, Griffey moving to LF, Kearns staying in RF, and Dunn heading back to 1B. Gathright has CRAZY range, which we need in CF.
Griffey isn't moving from CF. Now you could get Gathright to play LF and lead off ala Carl Crawford.

MattyHo4Life
03-30-2006, 06:33 PM
Ever since spring training started i've wondered why the reds have pushed someone like rick white ahead of ryan wagner in the pen. I know all about wagner's moaning about his demotion last year but unless the reds can bring in a 93-95 mph closer type for wagner in a deal or a multi player deal involving him and somone else i just can't see pushing him aside because of lack of space. Rick White will never be more than a marginal middle man and cincy has too many of them already on the roster.

Unfortunately, I think the answer is that Rick White is from the area.

RedsManRick
03-30-2006, 06:37 PM
Ever since spring training started i've wondered why the reds have pushed someone like rick white ahead of ryan wagner in the pen. I know all about wagner's moaning about his demotion last year but unless the reds can bring in a 93-95 mph closer type for wagner in a deal or a multi player deal involving him and somone else i just can't see pushing him aside because of lack of space. Rick White will never be more than a marginal middle man and cincy has too many of them already on the roster.

Options

You put Wagner in the minors and if/when White doesn't perform up to par, you have Wagner ready to go. You count on Wagner from the get go and he underperforms, then you have to go to somebody even LESS proven that he is...

Fact of the matter is that Wagner had an ERA over 6.00 last year. He's got major league stuff but outside of a pretty solid spring, doesn't exactly have some great claim. He's still fairly young. Start him in Louisville as the closer to get him some experience there. Once a spot opens up in the big leagues, you bring him up.

We shouldn't be getting our collective panties in a bunch over this one. This isn't a keeping Johan Santana in the pen so Joe Mays can start type situation.

Mario-Rijo
03-30-2006, 06:56 PM
I think the kids stuff is too good to get rid of him unless of course what you are getting in return has a pretty equal upside or isn't much older and is already developed into an above average pitcher. I would think Atlanta would love to have him but this time hopefully we don't get ripped off, like in years past with them. They need bullpen help and this would be the type of arm they would relish, but they are going to have to come with a good offer but what? Ramirez, or one of those cathers plus Thompson maybe I dunno.

cincyinco
03-30-2006, 07:01 PM
Would you guys trade Wagner for Gathright? If that happens, our OF defense gets a lot better with Gathright going to CF, Griffey moving to LF, Kearns staying in RF, and Dunn heading back to 1B. Gathright has CRAZY range, which we need in CF.

3 way trade? It was rumored FL was interested in swapping Olsen for Gaithright and TB turned that down...

What if we could send Wagner and parts to TB/FL to land Gaithright which we in turn send to FL for Olsen.

FL seems down on Olsen for some reason... He's a potential ace lefty, he's had a great spring, and they sent him to AAA.

reds44
03-30-2006, 07:09 PM
FL seems down on Olsen for some reason... He's a potential ace lefty, he's had a great spring, and they sent him to AAA.
Kind of misleading. He is going to be their 5th starter, but since they aren't going to need a 5th starter (remember I think last year where Claussen didn't pitch for almost a month because he was the 5ht starter) they sent him to AAA to get work until they need a 5th starter.

cincyinco
03-30-2006, 07:12 PM
Kind of misleading. He is going to be their 5th starter, but since they aren't going to need a 5th starter (remember I think last year where Claussen didn't pitch for almost a month because he was the 5ht starter) they sent him to AAA to get work until they need a 5th starter.

Okay, in any case it was rumored Tampa already turned down FL's offer of Olsen for Gaithright. Which to me means Olsen is available in the right deal. And this is exactly the kind of pitcher the Reds need to be targeting.

Who does TB have catching? Send them Larue.

MattyHo4Life
03-30-2006, 08:03 PM
Kind of misleading. He is going to be their 5th starter, but since they aren't going to need a 5th starter (remember I think last year where Claussen didn't pitch for almost a month because he was the 5ht starter) they sent him to AAA to get work until they need a 5th starter.

This is exactly what is happening with Reyes and the Cardinals. The Cardinals don't need Reyes in the rotation right now, and sent him to AAA. Now there are reports questioning if he is available for trade since the Cards are "down on him". The Cards aren't down on Reyes, and I'm guessing the same is true for Florida and Olsen.

reds44
03-30-2006, 08:06 PM
Okay, in any case it was rumored Tampa already turned down FL's offer of Olsen for Gaithright. Which to me means Olsen is available in the right deal. And this is exactly the kind of pitcher the Reds need to be targeting.

Who does TB have catching? Send them Larue.
I am thinking they would rather have Olsen then LaRue.

Patrick Bateman
03-30-2006, 08:11 PM
This is exactly what is happening with Reyes and the Cardinals. The Cardinals don't need Reyes in the rotation right now, and sent him to AAA. Now there are reports questioning if he is available for trade since the Cards are "down on him". The Cards aren't down on Reyes, and I'm guessing the same is true for Florida and Olsen.

I don't think you are quite right on that one (even though you know more about the Cards than me). Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Cards rotation:

Carpenter
Mulder
Marquis
Suppan
Ponson

I think the situation in Florida is quite different. Olsen has made the rotation as the 5th starter, but was sent down simply because they dont need the starter because of off days for the first couple weeks. When his turn comes he will be called up.

For the Cards Reyes did not make the rotation and wont be called up pending injuries so I think it's different.

However I agree with the thought that the Cards have not really soured on Reyes like others have suggested. I bet they keep him for a long time.

MattyHo4Life
03-30-2006, 08:26 PM
I don't think you are quite right on that one (even though you know more about the Cards than me). Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Cards rotation:

Carpenter
Mulder
Marquis
Suppan
Ponson

I think the situation in Florida is quite different. Olsen has made the rotation as the 5th starter, but was sent down simply because they dont need the starter because of off days for the first couple weeks. When his turn comes he will be called up.

For the Cards Reyes did not make the rotation and wont be called up pending injuries so I think it's different.

However I agree with the thought that the Cards have not really soured on Reyes like others have suggested. I bet they keep him for a long time.

It is different in a way. As I said though, the Cards don't need him in the rotation. The reason why they don't need him is different than Florida's reason, but both pitchers will start the year in AAA. Reyes will be in the Majors this year though. He really hasn't had a lot of innings pitched in the minors, and the Cardinals would rather him get more innings in AAA than put him in the bullpen. Wainwright on the other hand will be in the bullpen for the Cards this year since Ponson is the 5th starter.

cincyinco
03-30-2006, 08:29 PM
I am thinking they would rather have Olsen then LaRue.

But send them Larue and Wagner?

FL gets Gaithright

Cin gets Olsen?

And isn't Ponson the cards 5th starter?

Patrick Bateman
03-30-2006, 08:37 PM
It is different in a way. As I said though, the Cards don't need him in the rotation. The reason why they don't need him is different than Florida's reason, but both pitchers will start the year in AAA. Reyes will be in the Majors this year though. He really hasn't had a lot of innings pitched in the minors, and the Cardinals would rather him get more innings in AAA than put him in the bullpen. Wainwright on the other hand will be in the bullpen for the Cards this year since Ponson is the 5th starter.

It's different in a huge way. Olsen is a part of the rotation while Reyes isn't. The Marlins don't need 5 starters for a little bit and would rather have the extra player for the first while. But Olsen is still part of the rotation and will start the season on April 15th only missing about 2 starts. As it satnds Reyes wont start because Jocketty doesn't think Reyes is currently one of the top 5 starters on the team and likely wont start until an injury strikes.

reds44
03-30-2006, 08:59 PM
It's different in a huge way. Olsen is a part of the rotation while Reyes isn't. The Marlins don't need 5 starters for a little bit and would rather have the extra player for the first while. But Olsen is still part of the rotation and will start the season on April 15th only missing about 2 starts. As it satnds Reyes wont start because Jocketty doesn't think Reyes is currently one of the top 5 starters on the team and likely wont start until an injury strikes.
Yeah it really isn't similar.

Olsen in rotation, Reyes not.

cincyinco
03-30-2006, 09:15 PM
Yeah it really isn't similar.

Olsen in rotation, Reyes not.

Even so its been reported that FL wanted to move Olsen for Gaithright..

he's not untouchable by any means, and its conceivable the Marlins may prefer some of the younger influx of talent they received via trade than Olsen. Its also conceivable they're not happy with Eric Reed in CF and would part with Olsen to get a cheap, good, young player.

Get creative, get on the phone. Olsen is the type of pitcher this club needs to target.

MattyHo4Life
03-30-2006, 09:17 PM
It's different in a huge way. Olsen is a part of the rotation while Reyes isn't. The Marlins don't need 5 starters for a little bit and would rather have the extra player for the first while. But Olsen is still part of the rotation and will start the season on April 15th only missing about 2 starts. As it satnds Reyes wont start because Jocketty doesn't think Reyes is currently one of the top 5 starters on the team and likely wont start until an injury strikes.

Ok...you guys are making too much of this. My point isn't who is in the rotation. It is whether the team is "down on a player". That's it.

reds44
03-30-2006, 09:19 PM
Even so its been reported that FL wanted to move Olsen for Gaithright..

he's not untouchable by any means, and its conceivable the Marlins may prefer some of the younger influx of talent they received via trade than Olsen. Its also conceivable they're not happy with Eric Reed in CF and would part with Olsen to get a cheap, good, young player.

Get creative, get on the phone. Olsen is the type of pitcher this club needs to target.
Eric Reed isn't their starting CFer.

That would be Reggie Abercrombie.

cincyinco
03-30-2006, 09:23 PM
Eric Reed isn't their starting CFer.

That would be Reggie Abercrombie.

I thought it was still up in the air.. either way, I see why they'd love to get a Gaithright.. neither one really inspires confidence as a long term solution IMHO.

Put Larue and Wagner together and you have some fairly good value that should be able to land another good starting pitcher.

Olsen is merely the "type" of pitcher we should try to target - young, hasn't fully reached ceiling, can be a frontline starter, cheap, and controlable.

reds44
03-30-2006, 09:25 PM
I thought it was still up in the air.. either way, I see why they'd love to get a Gaithright.. neither one really inspires confidence as a long term solution IMHO.

Put Larue and Wagner together and you have some fairly good value that should be able to land another good starting pitcher.

Olsen is merely the "type" of pitcher we should try to target - young, hasn't fully reached ceiling, can be a frontline starter, cheap, and controlable.
I'm not sure if I would give up Larue and Wagner for Olsen. Vargas yes.

VI_RedsFan
03-30-2006, 09:30 PM
I'm sure we can be able to get into the FL/TB swap of Gathright and Olsen. We get Olsen, TB gets Wagner, FL gets Gathright. I agree ,cincyinco, that we need to target Olsen. He has top of the rotation potential. We can wait and move LaRue at the deadline for pitching, because we obviously can't do it now.

cincyinco
03-30-2006, 09:48 PM
I'm not sure if I would give up Larue and Wagner for Olsen. Vargas yes.

Olsen projects to be an ace.. Vargas does not. Vargas is a good pitcher, but the Reds need to target someone with an ace ceiling. Its the missing piece to the pitching puzzle.

In any case, Larue is an average catcher and I could live with Valentin, and Wagner is a guy who's struggled at the MLB level. I am in the camp that believes its a lot easier to replace a relief pitcher, and even a catcher where offense is only a marginal piece of the picture... than it is to get a potential frontline starting pitcher.. i'd much rather have the pitcher.

TeamBoone
03-30-2006, 10:38 PM
IMHO, Wagner should be given the chance to show his stuff.

He started out great last year until the shoulder thing. The shoulder thing is now resolved, he's had a good spring, who's to say he won't be lights out again.

At least take a look at the guy against major leaguers, and then make a decision, instead of just assuming he's done.

cincyinco
03-30-2006, 10:43 PM
IMHO, Wagner should be given the chance to show his stuff.

He started out great last year until the shoulder thing. The shoulder thing is now resolved, he's had a good spring, who's to say he won't be lights out again.

At least take a look at the guy against major leaguers, and then make a decision, instead of just assuming he's done.

Not assuming he's done by any means, but I think if you have the chance to get a pitcher who can be a potential front liner, you do it. we've been waiting for that chance for how long now?

It doesn't have to be Olsen...

But if Larue and Wagner can fetch another good pitcher to go with Arroyo/Harang/Claussen, I say do it. As a Reds fan, I salivate at the idea of even 4 average to slightly above average starting pitchers... Its been a LONG time.

Newman4
03-31-2006, 10:52 AM
From watching Wagner from his ML debut until last season it appeared that some "pitching guru" from the Reds crappy staff has messed around with the kid and got to to bite on this "pitch to contact" model. His fastball had much more movement and velocity (consistently around 93 mph) when he first came up and his slider was just unbelievable with how much it broke.
Then, fast forward to last year's model. He appear to try and "aim" his fastball and then his slider had a much smaller break and remained in the strikezone too long. Almost as if he had been told "Son, we want them to hit the ball" instead of letting him do his thing.