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kheidg-
03-30-2006, 02:07 PM
Sorry if this was already posted. Is Dan O'Brien still here? Mike Burns over Wagner, c'mon.


Ryan Wagner - R - Reds

According to the Cincinnati Enquirer, Reds scouts suspect that Ryan Wagner might be available through a trade.
Some team needs to go get him. As things stand now, it appears that the Reds are leaning toward carrying Mike Burns over him on their Opening Day roster. Mar. 30 - 1:59 pm et

flyer85
03-30-2006, 02:08 PM
Both Fay and Marty agreed that Wagner was likely to be the odd man out in the pen. Thank goodeness we have Rick White. :rolleyes:

RBA
03-30-2006, 02:11 PM
Making room to sign Denny Reyes again? ;)

savafan
03-30-2006, 02:14 PM
Making room to sign Denny Reyes again? ;)

The Power of Tradition ;)

westofyou
03-30-2006, 02:15 PM
Options and Service Time are also factors.

Roy Tucker
03-30-2006, 02:22 PM
From this AMs Enquirer...

IN THE 'PEN: The battle for the last bullpen spot is more interesting because the player who wins the spot will have a bigger role than the 25th man.

Belisle is probably in because of his versatility - he could be a long-relief guy or a spot starter. He's 0-0 with a 3.27 ERA this spring.

The Reds love Coffey because he throws strikes. He's 2-0 with a 2.77 ERA, and he has walked only two batters all spring.

That leaves Burns and Wagner.

Both have had terrific springs. Wagner, 23, is 2-1 with a 3.00 ERA. He has allowed one earned run in his last 11 innings. Opponents are hitting .150 off him.

Burns, 27, is 0-0 with a 1.98 ERA. Opponents are hitting .188 off him.

There is a sense around the club that Burns has the edge.

There also has been talk among scouts that Wagner might be available through a trade.

The rap on Wagner: He's been good each of his three springs with the Reds, but his numbers haven't carried through to the season. He was 3-2 with a 6.11 ERA last season. He spent the second half of last season on the DL with a sore shoulder.

Belisle, Coffey, Burns and Wagner all have options.

max venable
03-30-2006, 02:25 PM
Ryan Wagner for Ryan Shealy.

Do it. Do it now.

Kc61
03-30-2006, 02:26 PM
After last season, Wagner should be the presumptive odd man out in the pen.

However, for the longer term, he still has much potential, is young, and should be treated as a valuable guy, either at AAA or in a trade for value.

traderumor
03-30-2006, 02:33 PM
If you want to trade Wagner for a long-term goal, fine. But if they trade him simply because they are digging Burns' pyrite and keep old men like White, Hammond, Mercker and Weathers around on a team that has a snowball's chance, that's just plain mismanagement.

Of course, that is all contingent on what kind of deal they have cooking to include him in.

KronoRed
03-30-2006, 02:44 PM
Apparently you need to be on the north side of 30 to get in this pen.

Spitball
03-30-2006, 02:45 PM
After last season, Wagner should be the presumptive odd man out in the pen.

However, for the longer term, he still has much potential, is young, and should be treated as a valuable guy, either at AAA or in a trade for value.

Wagner needs major work on his mechanics. He will never have command nor health until he is smoothed out.

IslandRed
03-30-2006, 03:45 PM
Options and Service Time are also factors.

Big factors. I hate it when a guy is called up too soon and by the time he figures it out (if he ever does), he's eligible for arbitration. If he's pitching great, then sure, bring him up; but as long as he has options and isn't pitching any better than what we have on hand, the straightening-out can happen in Louisville without the meter running.

The KC writeup in BP 2006 was an eye-opener on the subject.

traderumor
03-30-2006, 03:54 PM
Wagner needs major work on his mechanics. He will never have command nor health until he is smoothed out.His mechanics is what seems to make him effective in the first place. I think his problems are maturity more than anything else, which one sign that they are improving is that he showed up in great shape this spring. Unless he's leaving for some pitching, he needs to stay.

Chip R
03-30-2006, 04:01 PM
Apparently you need to be on the north side of 30 to get in this pen.

Jealous? ;)

KronoRed
03-30-2006, 04:11 PM
..Not really no :D

RANDY IN INDY
03-30-2006, 04:21 PM
Wagner needs major work on his mechanics. He will never have command nor health until he is smoothed out.

Couldn't have said it better.:beerme:

Heath
03-30-2006, 04:23 PM
Apparently you need to be on the north side of 30 to get in this pen.

any farther north of 30, this club's gonna be pitching from Sault Ste. Marie.

Marty mentioned on ESPN that the Reds were looking for a relief pitcher who is young with some experience that throws mid-90's. I'll have Krono start up the wayback machine and I'll see if I can whip up Doug Bair.

Oh whoops, my bad, he's a pitching coach now.

Heath
03-30-2006, 04:25 PM
Ryan Wagner for Ryan Shealy.

Do it. Do it now.

I'd almost deal Jason LaRue and a LOOGY-or a ROOGY TBNL to the Rockies for Zach Day and Ryan Shealy.

But Dan O'Dowd might laugh.

Spitball
03-30-2006, 04:31 PM
His mechanics is what seems to make him effective in the first place. I think his problems are maturity more than anything else, which one sign that they are improving is that he showed up in great shape this spring. Unless he's leaving for some pitching, he needs to stay.

If those mechanics are the key to his success, Wagner is in big time trouble. Command and health have a whole lot more to do with successful pitching than violent (deceptive???) mechanics.



Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC


Couldn't have said it better.

Thanks, Randy. :beerme:

traderumor
03-30-2006, 04:31 PM
Marty mentioned on ESPN that the Reds were looking for a relief pitcher who is young with some experience that throws mid-90's. I'll have Krono start up the wayback machine and I'll see if I can whip up Doug Bair.
Them and 29 other teams.

Spitball
03-30-2006, 04:32 PM
I'd almost deal Jason LaRue and a LOOGY-or a ROOGY TBNL to the Rockies for Zach Day and Ryan Shealy.

But Dan O'Dowd might laugh.

No Day, please.

Team Clark
03-30-2006, 04:36 PM
Wagner has pouted in the past. It will be interesting to see how he handles his demotion this time around.

pedro
03-30-2006, 04:37 PM
zach day sucks

Falls City Beer
03-30-2006, 04:44 PM
Wagner has pouted in the past. It will be interesting to see how he handles his demotion this time around.


I REALLY hope that the days of "message-sending" demotions are over for this club. I'd rather they just trade the bad apples than look like a two-bit day care.

Heath
03-30-2006, 04:52 PM
zach day sucks

Yep he does. But I'd be banking on "Heath's Hometown Theory" - You might do one of two things when you get traded home.

Rule 1 - You might pitch better in more familiar surroundings. You might be hasseled to family get-togethers, more ticket requests, and phone calls from old girlfriends, but the distractions might be enough to where you aren't thinking too hard about pitching or hitting and you do the things you need to do and it falls into place.

or

Rule 2 - You do all the above, but the distractions are too great and you get WORSE.

Thomas Wolfe can pound salt. You can go home again - it's just how you deal with it that makes or breaks you.

KronoRed
03-30-2006, 05:25 PM
No more hometown junk.

Eric_Davis
03-30-2006, 05:48 PM
How old is Wagner?

That's right! He's young,....very young. And had he been brought up through the organization like he should have been instead of being rushed, he'd be right where he's supposed to be this far into his career.

The REDS are fools to consider anything but keeping Wagner on the roster for the entire season.

Eric_Davis
03-30-2006, 05:57 PM
From Wednesday's (3/29) mlb.report.

SARASOTA, Fla. -- Almost there.
The latest wave of Reds cuts claimed three more players Wednesday morning, when pitcher Brian Shackelford and infielders Matt Kata and William Bergolla were optioned to Triple-A Louisville.

Cincinnati has 33 players remaining in big league camp. That number dwindles to 30 healthy bodies since pitchers Paul Wilson (shoulder) and Grant Balfour (shoulder/elbow) will start the season on the disabled list. Non-roster outfielder Dewayne Wise (sprained left ankle) also won't be heading north.

These 20 players appeared to be roster locks for Opening Day:

Catchers Jason LaRue and Javier Valentin; infielders Rich Aurilia, Edwin Encarnacion, Ryan Freel, Scott Hatteberg, Felipe Lopez and Tony Womack; outfielders Adam Dunn, Ken Griffey Jr., Austin Kearns; starting pitchers Bronson Arroyo, Brandon Claussen, Aaron Harang, Eric Milton and Dave Williams and relievers Chris Hammond, Kent Mercker, David Weathers and Rick White.

That left 10 players competing for the final five spots on the 25-man roster.

"When it gets down to these last few cuts, it gets very, very difficult," Reds manager Jerry Narron said.

Four pitchers -- Matt Belisle, Mike Burns, Todd Coffey and Ryan Wagner are fighting for what's expected to be three bullpen spots. All four have Minor League options left.

In the sixth inning of Wednesday's 7-6 win over the Devil Rays, Belisle gave up a three-run homer to first batter Ty Wigginton but then recorded two quick outs. Coffey later pitched a scoreless ninth and recorded the save despite allowing a hit and a wild pitch.

Narron is expected to carry 12 pitchers.

"I'm still 99 percent sure it will be 12," Narron said. "(Saying) that gives me a tad of wiggle room."

Catchers David Ross and Dane Sardinha and outfielders Jacob Cruz and Quinton McCracken are leading the fight for the final two roster spots. The decision on whether or not to keep an extra catcher will depend heavily on LaRue's recovery from arthroscopic knee surgery. LaRue contends he'll be ready by Opening Day but he could likely start the season on the disabled list.

Ross -- acquired in a March 21 trade with the Padres -- and Sardinha are out of options. Both would likely be claimed off of waivers by a catching-starved club.

Cruz, the Reds' pinch-hits leader last season with 20, has struggled at the plate during camp while batting .194 (6-for-31). Batting .356 (16-for-45), McCracken appears to have the edge but has been bothered lately by a sore right foot.

Throwing a wrench in the projections are two things -- the potential for a last-minute trade and veteran outfielder Brian Buchanan.

Buchanan, who was not even invited to big league camp, might be enticing for Narron and general manager Wayne Krivsky to consider keeping after he made the most of his chances. He batted an eye-popping .568 (21-for-37) with 13 RBIs in 20 games with Cincinnati this spring.




News and features:

• Arroyo stifles Red Sox in Reds' win
• Reds notes: Roster sees further trimming
• Dunn, Griffey lead Reds over Rays
• Reds notes: Second base not set
• Five-run sixth inning propels Reds
• Griffey stars as Reds rip Bucs
Multimedia:

• Reds Spring Training report: 350K
• Sheldon on Ruhle's cancer diagnosis
• Reds broadcaster Welsh on Dunn signing
• Reds GM Wayne Krivsky on plans
• MLB.com's Mark Sheldon on Krivsky
• Reds introduce new GM Krivsky
Spring Training info:
• MLB.com coverage | Schedule | Ballpark | Tickets

More on the cuts: The decision to cut Shackelford came down to control. The lefty posted a 4.50 ERA (six earned runs over 12 innings) in 10 games, but issued seven walks.

"Shackelford was inconsistent this spring, especially at throwing strikes," Narron said. "He did a good job against left-handers this spring. But overall, we would have liked to see a little more consistency. He's got to be able to get right-handers out."

The versatile Kata, who was claimed off waivers from Philadelphia earlier this month, batted just .143 (4-for-28) since joining the Reds. Bergolla missed most of camp with a high groin strain. He didn't play in his first game until Tuesday night.

Sick numbers: Harang, the Reds' Opening Day starter, put a crooked number (5) on the scoreboard for the first time all spring on Wednesday. It happened during the final inning of his final outing.

But Harang certainly had a valid excuse -- he was sick. Before the game, the right-hander said he needed to nap for about an hour to feel better.

Still, Harang looked good for three scoreless innings. After Cincinnati posted four runs during a long bottom of the fifth, Tampa Bay responded with five runs -- four of them charged to Harang. Overall, he gave up five runs on 10 hits. He also walked his first batter of the spring and struck out three.

"I ran out of gas. I was exhausted," said Harang, who still got the win and finished the spring 4-0 with a 2.84 ERA. "I'm getting a bug that's going around. I had a little temperature this morning. I haven't been sleeping the last couple of nights. I wanted to make sure I got my work in."

Harang pronounced himself ready for Monday's opener against the Cubs, but wasn't dwelling on it.

"It probably won't hit me until we get to Cincinnati," he said. "It probably won't hit me until that day."

Heath
03-30-2006, 07:06 PM
No more hometown junk.
Tell that to Pete Rose. And Jim Brosnan. And Bill Doran.

;)

KronoRed
03-30-2006, 07:26 PM
What decade were they again? ;)

Marty and Joe
03-30-2006, 11:56 PM
If you want to trade Wagner for a long-term goal, fine. But if they trade him simply because they are digging Burns' pyrite and keep old men like White, Hammond, Mercker and Weathers around on a team that has a snowball's chance, that's just plain mismanagement.

Of course, that is all contingent on what kind of deal they have cooking to include him in.

Absolutely agree. If you trade him, it better be for a long-term goal. Otherwise, if you are not keeping him on the current roster, send him down - with the right message and give him the time to develop.

knuckler
03-31-2006, 04:27 PM
Tell that to Pete Rose. And Jim Brosnan. And Bill Doran.

;)

Don't forget those Griffey and Larkin guys. Who needs 'em?:laugh:

Heath
03-31-2006, 04:29 PM
Don't forget those Griffey and Larkin guys. Who needs 'em?:laugh:

Sorry - I went star and then obscure.

And Buddy Bell said that playing in front of his dad was one of the greatest thrills he had when he was in Cincinnati.

Team Clark
03-31-2006, 04:40 PM
Hey don't forget Steve Larkin, Eduardo Perez, Mike Bell and Pete Rose Jr.

savafan
03-31-2006, 04:47 PM
If Mike Burns and Rick White pitch better than Todd Coffey and Ryan Wagner this year, I'll get the Cubs logo tattooed on my rear.

That's how confident I am that Burns and White have no business on this ballclub.

Falls City Beer
03-31-2006, 04:50 PM
If Mike Burns and Rick White pitch better than Todd Coffey and Ryan Wagner this year, I'll get the Cubs logo tattooed on my rear.

That's how confident I am that Burns and White have no business on this ballclub.


I'll go on record as saying Burns will outpitch the other three.

Heath
03-31-2006, 04:50 PM
If Mike Burns and Rick White pitch better than Todd Coffey and Ryan Wagner this year, I'll get the Cubs logo tattooed on my rear.

That's how confident I am that Burns and White have no business on this ballclub.

Predictions thread. Now.

KronoRed
03-31-2006, 04:52 PM
We're gonna take your work for that Sava :help:

Heath
03-31-2006, 04:55 PM
We're gonna take your work for that Sava :help:

thats word not work.

It's ok, man. You'll get better :seancaseyhugs:

savafan
03-31-2006, 04:56 PM
I'll go on record as saying Burns will outpitch the other three.

Hey Falls City, how's your kid?

max venable
03-31-2006, 04:57 PM
Don't forget those Griffey and Larkin guys. Who needs 'em?:laugh:
...Dave Parker anyone?

Falls City Beer
03-31-2006, 04:59 PM
Hey Falls City, how's your kid?


Notice I didn't bet anything.