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View Full Version : I give Adam Dunn credit



reds44
04-03-2006, 10:29 PM
For anyone that was in the game thread today, you know that I was probably being the hardest of Dunn. He did do some stupid things, but alot of what I said was just anger.

After reading these comments I have to give Dunner credit.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20060403&content_id=1381409&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Girffey on the wind


"It was probably the worst the wind has been," center fielder Ken Griffey Jr. said. "You couldn't really read it."

Cubs Center Fielder Juan Pierre on the wind


I know the crowd was giving Dunn a hard time, but I was in the outfield, and it's not that easy out there," Pierre said. "That wind was bad, and it was pretty tough

Now read those comments on the wind, then take a look at Dunn's,


"It obviously didn't affect anyone else," he said. "I'm not using it as an excuse."
He could have said yeah the wind was blowing out there, or even yeah the wind was blowing hard, but I am not going to use it as an excuse (which is basically using it as an excuse); however Dunn did neither. He didn't blame it on the wind. I give him alot of credit.

A mad Adam Dunn


It's one game. If you want to say we'll stink it up because we lost one game, go ahead. This isn't ruining my season. I promise you

He is right, it was one game. We don't suck that bad if at all, it just was everything went wrong on the same day. Hopefully Arroyo can give us a lift on Wed.

Go Reds!

redsrule2500
04-03-2006, 10:40 PM
Cool

Reds1
04-03-2006, 10:41 PM
Nice post. You are getting cred!

I was upset at the time too, but I certainly didn't boo him like much of the crowd. The wind was nasty. I was there. We left as my dad couldn't handle the cold anymore.

princeton
04-03-2006, 11:07 PM
yup, he's Mr. Red and we're the lovable losers

max venable
04-03-2006, 11:27 PM
I was sitting right next the the wall down the 3rd base line today...about 30 yards from Adam Dunn. And boy, oh boy...I told him how I felt about his effort today (or lack thereof).

I agree that he deserves credit for being a man and owning up to it...and saying that he's not going to let one game ruin his season. Good for him. But geesh, that one lazy can o corn that he let fall in front of him...come ON! He just didn't seem like he had his head in the game. The ballerina act on the warning track...Matt Murton didn't seem to have a problem out there. And give Juan Pierre some credit for sticking up for Adam, BUT...Pierre made a couple of nifty catches.

Adam...dude...you've GOT to do better than that, my man! I like Dunn...A lot! I just don't think he had his head in the game today. Maybe it was the weather (I froze to death), maybe it was whatever but like Adam himself said: It obviously didn't affect anyone else...

I'm just glad we've got 161 more to go. :thumbup:

top6
04-03-2006, 11:41 PM
Were people booing Dunn? On opening day? Ah, Cincinnati fans. Those were probably the same people who either (a) sold their Bengals playoff ticket to Steelers fans (b) left the game with 10 minutes left when the Bengals were only down 2 scores. Sorry, but after attending that game, I've been anti-Cincinnati sports fans. (Excluding everyone on this board, of course.)

Phhhl
04-03-2006, 11:49 PM
Razz him a little today, fine. It's not my style, but he can't make much of a case to defend himself. I was not pleased with what I saw today, either. But, we all know Adam isn't THAT bad of a fielder. Clean the slate and start all over again Wednesday. The guy is the centerpiece of the team and we don't need mob rules politics from Joe Six Pack in the bleachers all season long. This game was no indication of the talent level of the Reds any way you look at it.

paintmered
04-03-2006, 11:52 PM
Razz him a little today, fine. It's not my style, but he can't make much of a case to defend himself. I was not pleased with what I saw today, either. But, we all know Adam isn't THAT bad of a fielder. Clean the slate and start all over again Wednesday. The guy is the centerpiece of the team and we don't need mob rules politics from Joe Six Pack in the bleachers all season long. This game was no indication of the talent level of the Reds any way you look at it.

Exactly Santo. What happened today should not rewrite his last five years of defensive history.

A bad Opening Day didn't define Pokey Reese's defensive ability. And he's won two gold gloves.

Sea Ray
04-04-2006, 12:24 AM
I'd give Dunn more credit if he said something like this:

"I'll never let this kind of day happen to me again. I will work extra hard on my defense in the days to come as I know this is a weakness in my game. I'm going to have Billy Hatcher hit me extra fungoes...etc etc"

I'm not convinced that Adam Dunn has ever taken defense seriously like the great ones, Griffey Jr, Mays, even Eric Davis. My guess is Dunn thinks the best way to handle his bad day defensively is to go fishing and hope he comes back a better defensive player

Ron Madden
04-04-2006, 12:26 AM
Adam had a bad game.

There are 161 more games to go. I'm sure Dunn will have far more good games than bad ones.

westofyou
04-04-2006, 12:29 AM
I'd give Dunn more credit if he said something like this:

"I'll never let this kind of day happen to me again. I will work extra hard on my defense in the days to come as I know this is a weakness in my game. I'm going to have Billy Hatcher hit me extra fungoes...etc etc"

I'm not convinced that Adam Dunn has ever taken defense seriously like the great ones, Griffey Jr, Mays, even Eric Davis. My guess is Dunn thinks the best way to handle his bad day defensively is to go fishing and hope he comes back a better defensive player
Gawd... why not just move on?

By all means compare him with gold glove CF's, it can only make him look worse.

Sea Ray
04-04-2006, 12:31 AM
Adam had a bad game.

There are 161 more games to go. I'm sure Dunn will have far more good games than bad ones.

Defensively, I disagree. He won't have too many days as bad as this one but that just goes to show how horrid this one was. He's not a good outfielder and over 162 games we'll see that once again

Sea Ray
04-04-2006, 12:33 AM
Gawd... why not just move on?

By all means compare him with gold glove CF's, it can only make him look worse.

I'm comparing his work ethic with the ones who are successful. I think that has a lot to do with why those guys are gold glovers. It is not by chance

westofyou
04-04-2006, 12:35 AM
I'm comparing his work ethic with the ones who are successful. I think that has a lot to do with why those guys are gold glovers. It is not by chance
Pat Watkins and Mike Frank sure worked hard and could field well too.

Adam Dunn takes more beatings on RZ than a tetherball in an anger management class.

I'm sure you'd love to hear him tell you how he was going to make up for those errors... and when he's done maybe he'll drop and give you twenty too.

reds44
04-04-2006, 12:36 AM
I'm comparing his work ethic with the ones who are successful. I think that has a lot to do with why those guys are gold glovers. It is not by chance
And you know what his work ethic is how?

Sea Ray
04-04-2006, 12:40 AM
Pat Watkins and Mike Frank sure worked hard and could field well too.

Adam Dunn takes more beatings on RZ than a tetherball in an anger management class.

I'm sure you'd love to hear him tell you how he was going to make up for those errors... and when he's done maybe he'll drop and give you twenty too.

You're right. Pat Watkins and Mike Frank could each play OF better than Dunn. Your point is?

I disagree that Dunn takes beatings here on RZ. In fact I am astonished at the manlove RZ shows for the guy. Sure his sabermetrics looks great but don't let his OPS blind you to his shortcomings such as what was evidenced today.

Sea Ray
04-04-2006, 12:42 AM
And you know what his work ethic is how?

I have not heard about him working on his defense like I do for guys such as Lopez and EE. I'm saying I would like to hear about him taking extra work in the OF

MWM
04-04-2006, 12:43 AM
I'm saying I would like to hear about him taking extra work in the OF

Maybe he doesn't have your phone number to let you know when he's working on his defense.

westofyou
04-04-2006, 12:44 AM
Sure his sabermetrics looks greatOnly in jeans.

Sea Ray
04-04-2006, 12:48 AM
Maybe he doesn't have your phone number to let you know when he's working on his defense.

FeLo and EE don't have my number either but I read all over the place how last year Randy Whistler and this year Bucky Dent were working tirelessly with them on their defense. What does my phone number have to do with anything? :confused:

SteelSD
04-04-2006, 12:49 AM
I'd give Dunn more credit if he said something like this:

"I'll never let this kind of day happen to me again. I will work extra hard on my defense in the days to come as I know this is a weakness in my game. I'm going to have Billy Hatcher hit me extra fungoes...etc etc"

I'm not convinced that Adam Dunn has ever taken defense seriously like the great ones, Griffey Jr, Mays, even Eric Davis. My guess is Dunn thinks the best way to handle his bad day defensively is to go fishing and hope he comes back a better defensive player

Freakin' guy skipped the WBC because the Reds told him he'd be the First Baseman and he wanted to get a head start on working out at the position.
Those are the actions of someone with a work ethic.

But do feel free to tell us how unpatriotic Dunn is for not wanting to represent his country and hang with the rest of the cool kids. That'll be a hoot.

And frankly, there isn't a reasonable person alive who'd so much as attempt to compare a guy who simply doesn't have the skill to be a truly good LF with some of the most talented pure Center Fielders of all time.

You might as well say that Neifi Perez can't hit like Derek Lee because Perez doesn't try very hard. Good lord.

reds44
04-04-2006, 12:50 AM
Freakin' guy skipped the WBC because the Reds told him he'd be the First Baseman and he wanted to get a head start on working out at the position.
Those are the actions of someone with a work ethic.

But do feel free to tell us how unpatriotic Dunn is for not wanting to represent his country and hang with the rest of the cool kids. That'll be a hoot.

And frankly, there isn't a reasonable person alive who'd so much as attempt to compare a guy who simply doesn't have the skill to be a truly good LF with some of the most talented pure Center Fielders of all time.

You might as well say that Neifi Perez can't hit like Derek Lee because Perez doesn't try very hard. Good lord.
Yes. Sometimes it isn't a guys fault that he isn't a skilled defender.

westofyou
04-04-2006, 12:52 AM
2 and half weeks ago

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0315redsweb.html


In more general terms, Krivsky is pleased with what her sees concerning work ethics and attitudes.

"Everything seems positive," he said. "So many guys are doing extra work. (Coaches) Bucky Dent and Chris Chambliss are working hard teaching Dunn to play first base, extra time. Dunn didn't come to Fort Myers, but he was out early in Sarasota working with Chambliss and Dent, who drove down after the workout to join the team."

Sea Ray
04-04-2006, 12:53 AM
Freakin' guy skipped the WBC because the Reds told him he'd be the First Baseman and he wanted to get a head start on working out at the position.
Those are the actions of someone with a work ethic.

But do feel free to tell us how unpatriotic Dunn is for not wanting to represent his country and hang with the rest of the cool kids. That'll be a hoot.

And frankly, there isn't a reasonable person alive who'd so much as attempt to compare a guy who simply doesn't have the skill to be a truly good LF with some of the most talented pure Center Fielders of all time.

You might as well say that Neifi Perez can't hit like Derek Lee because Perez doesn't try very hard. Good lord.

Well Good Lord, you may think Adam Dunn is just a hack in the field and that's just Adam Dunn but I disagree. I think he's a whale of an athlete and in fact too good of an athlete to play LF as poorly as he does. I think if he applied himself he'd be much better. Anyone who can play QB and all the other things he's done in sports can surely catch more flyballs.

reds44
04-04-2006, 12:53 AM
2 and half weeks ago

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0315redsweb.html
Yes, but that doesn't cout because it was at first base.
;)

/sarcasm

MWM
04-04-2006, 12:58 AM
I think he must have spent too much time in the offseason learning how to hit sac flies, that he must have forgot about defense.

Team Clark
04-04-2006, 12:59 AM
I'm sure you'd love to hear him tell you how he was going to make up for those errors... and when he's done maybe he'll drop and give you twenty too.


"Geesh...how I am I supposed to hit if I can't lift my arms"? Willie Mays Hayes

SteelSD
04-04-2006, 01:07 AM
Well Good Lord, you may think Adam Dunn is just a hack in the field and that's just Adam Dunn but I disagree. I think he's a whale of an athlete and in fact too good of an athlete to play LF as poorly as he does. I think if he applied himself he'd be much better. Anyone who can play QB and all the other things he's done in sports can surely catch more flyballs.

Well, of course. After all, we do know that high school Quarterbacks are better suited to track down fly balls on a baseball field than any other type of athlete. They also bake the best cookies and peel potatos faster than you or I.

Adam Dunn completely and utterly applied himself to working very hard on his defense this offseason. Problem was that it wasn't at the position he played yesterday.

Oopsie.

TOBTTReds
04-04-2006, 01:44 AM
On TV they immediately said that Dunn would stand up for what he did wrong today and not blame the wind...glad to see that's the case. I can't be upset at a guy for making a bad play due to lack of skill, only if it is lack of effort, or concentration.

KronoRed
04-04-2006, 03:17 AM
I think he must have spent too much time in the offseason learning how to hit sac flies, that he must have forgot about defense.
I like how he hit that sac fly in the 1st, showed real team work, a HR would have been a rally killer :evil:

traderumor
04-04-2006, 08:14 AM
The first dropped ball tipped off his glove and he thought he had it. I imagine the ball was moving similar to a wiffle ball based on his reaction as he looked in his glove.

The second one, he took two steps toward the wall, then could not come full bore because Lopez was chasing the ball. Lopez had a better chance at the ball than he did and should have taken charge once he saw his OFer take two steps to the wall, who was obviously fooled by the ball. That isn't the first time Felipe has not gone out far enough or taken charge for a blooper. See, I can point fingers, too.

The third one there are no excuses other than a very high fly ball in a gusty wind that hit off the fence on a fly.

Honestly, when I actually saw the plays, I felt really bad for all the finger pointing at Dunn because based on the game thread, you'd have thought he had muffed routine plays.

Now, I'm not sure what going out and shagging flies is going to do for what happened out there yesterday. Maybe he can go to Wright Patt where they might have a wind tunnel and practice until he needs his glove rewebbed.

cumberlandreds
04-04-2006, 08:31 AM
You have to give Dunn credit for taking responsibility and not making excuses. Not many players do that in this day and age.

GAC
04-04-2006, 08:32 AM
I'm sitting at home today still chilled to the bone from yesterday's game. And we left in the 7th inning! :lol:

The wind was terrible. It was not only swirling and unpredictable, but was cuttin' right through you. We were watching the OFer's out there jumping up and down and constantly blowing in their hands to keep them warm.

This was not baseball weather folks.

Judge not only Adam Dunn, but any OFer, under fair circumstances.

Adam Dunn is no defensive specialist in the OF. But he is also no Benny Agbyani either.

To question his work ethic (as people did with Jr too) is simply foolish IMO.

After all - he did hit a Sac Fly yesterday. ;)

Sea Ray
04-04-2006, 08:47 AM
I'm sitting at home today still chilled to the bone from yesterday's game. And we left in the 7th inning! :lol:

The wind was terrible. It was not only swirling and unpredictable, but was cuttin' right through you. We were watching the OFer's out there jumping up and down and constantly blowing in their hands to keep them warm.

This was not baseball weather folks.

Judge not only Adam Dunn, but any OFer, under fair circumstances.

Adam Dunn is no defensive specialist in the OF. But he is also no Benny Agbyani either.

To question his work ethic (as people did with Jr too) is simply foolish IMO.

After all - he did hit a Sac Fly yesterday. ;)

I think it's fair to judge him vs the other outfielders who played yesterday and none of them looked as inept as Dunn. The truth is yesterday wasn't the first time we've seen him drop or misjudge fly balls. This is a huge issue with his game.

OnBaseMachine
04-04-2006, 08:58 AM
I think it's fair to judge him vs the other outfielders who played yesterday and none of them looked as inept as Dunn. The truth is yesterday wasn't the first time we've seen him drop or misjudge fly balls. This is a huge issue with his game.

Out of all the outfielders that played yesterday, only Murton played the same position as Dunn. The wind was only swirling in left-field, thus making it the toughest position to play yesterday. Only one flyball was hit to Murton yesterday and it was in the first inning. I imagine Murton would have struggled also if given the equal amount of opportunities that Dunn had.

GAC
04-04-2006, 09:04 AM
This is a huge issue with his game.

That's your opinion. I've been watching this kid for the last several years, and I've seen him make some HUGE defensive plays both in the OF and at 1B. Do those count? Does he get any credit?

I think you are making too much out what happened yesterday - "straining at a gnat" so to speak. ;)

max venable
04-04-2006, 09:09 AM
Honestly, when I actually saw the plays, I felt really bad for all the finger pointing at Dunn because based on the game thread, you'd have thought he had muffed routine plays.

Those were routine plays. If you're a ML outfielder...you gotta make those plays--every one of 'em. Dunn realizes that...and he owned up to it.

It was a bad game for him. And it's over. Let's move on. If it happens every-other-day, then we can pile on again. But for now, as Pee Wee Herman said, (high-pitched voice) "I say...we let him go!"

flyer85
04-04-2006, 09:13 AM
What I would have like to heard to finish is to address his comment that the others weren't missing ball in the wind. He should have been been asked then why he struggled(while other didn't) on a very tough windy day. The answer is that he is a marginal outfielder at best and is never going to be good out there.

This makes one wonder why wasn't he given a chance to play first base. We have heard comments that he wasn't comfortable over there. Hell, he hardly played over there in the spring. First base is his future position, the sonner everyone figures that out and gives in to the inevitable the better off the Reds will be.

flyer85
04-04-2006, 09:15 AM
Freakin' guy skipped the WBC because the Reds told him he'd be the First Baseman and he wanted to get a head start on working out at the position. and then the Reds hardly even played him there. The move to first was never given a chance to work. Denorfia should have been inserted in CF and JR moved to LF.

flyer85
04-04-2006, 09:20 AM
Well Good LordI think he's a whale of an athlete and in fact too good of an athlete to play LF as poorly as he does.being a good athlete has little to do with the ability to track fly balls. If you didn't grow up playing OF it is not an easy transition to make. Hell, Deion Sanders was never any good tracking flyballs, he just made up for most of his mistakes because of his incredible speed.

Dunn should have been told that 1B is his future and given the opprtunity to make it his future position for two reasons.
1) He will never be a good LF. He's probably the worst LF in baseball not named Manny Ramirez. Dewan cam to that conclusion in his recently released Fielders Bible.
2) The Reds are better with Dunn at 1b and Denorfia on the OF than with Dunn in the OF and Hatteberg at 1b.

max venable
04-04-2006, 09:27 AM
2) The Reds are better with Dunn at 1b and Denorfia on the OF than with Dunn in the OF and Hatteberg at 1b.

I don't know, man. There's a lot more to playing 1B than just catching balls thrown from IFs. I think it's a tougher position than LF. Apparently, the Dunn at 1B experiment did not go well (just like the Kearns at 3B thing) or we would have seen him there yesterday.

flyer85
04-04-2006, 09:33 AM
I don't know, man. There's a lot more to playing 1B than just catching balls thrown from IFs. I think it's a tougher position than LF. Apparently, the Dunn at 1B experiment did not go well (just like the Kearns at 3B thing) or we would have seen him there yesterday.He's played a lot of first over the last few years. He has good hands(probably because he grew up playing infield), has good footwork and is a huge target. I seen nothing in the 100+ games Dunn has played at first in his major league career that suggested he couldn't handle the position. There is a reason why the guys that can't play anywhere else end up at 1b(it isn't that tough to play if you have good hands). If you don't have good hands then you end with Giambi/Delgado.

creek14
04-04-2006, 09:37 AM
I am humbled to be part of a message board that has so many posters who are perfect and never make a mistake at work.

Yeah he had a crappy game.

I'm just glad millions of people didn't see me at work on Saturday.

flyer85
04-04-2006, 09:42 AM
I am humbled to be part of a message board that has so many poster who are perfect and never made a mistake at work.

Yeah he had a crappy game.He did and he knows it as well as anyone. It was a tough wind day which is very unusual for GABP.

The issue for me is that one's talent should be maximized by placing them in a position where they are most likely to succeed in the long term. In the case of Adam Dunn that is first base. He's a below average LF and will likely remain that. I firmly believe that he would become one of the better defensive first basemen in the league given the opportunity. It's about what's best for the Reds and for Adam and I firmly believe that the Reds need to get Denorfia out there on an everyday basis.

I think the inability of Womack to turn DPs(his throws float to 1b) and Jrs utter lack of range in CF are bigger defensive issues than Dunn's play in LF.

Kc61
04-04-2006, 09:48 AM
Dunn will be fine in left field. He probably needs more work on windy day defense. He improved a lot last year. Too bad he had such a miserable day yesterday. Fans should leave him alone.

But other defensive positions are a big problem. Griffey should not be a centerfielder anymore. My guess is that he will be traded at the deadline if healthy and having a good year. Freel or Denorfia in center would be a big defensive upgrade.

Infield defense is also a problem. EE has range and should be fine eventually, but is inexperienced; Lopez is more of an offensive player; and the right side of the infield is just bad defensively.

While Dunn had the bad game yesterday, there are much bigger defensive problems on this team.

traderumor
04-04-2006, 09:53 AM
I scored many games in my youth and have listened to and watched thousands as well. The least written number has been and always will be "F-7." So, for my money, if I'm looking to hide a below average fielder, guess where I'm going to put him?

Now, to say Dunn is second only to Manny in fielding LF is hopefully just hyperbole, esp. after watching WMP play here the last four years.

Finally, to call those plays routine considering the weather circumstances is simply disingenuous.

flyer85
04-04-2006, 09:54 AM
Dunn will be fine in left field. He probably needs more work on windy day defense. Let's be honest, just how do you simulate those conditions yesterday. It wasn't just the windy, swirling day. It was also that he was in LF with the wind from the north coming over the stands and swirling close to LF. It was a day were the natural instincts for playing the position had to take over because you can never adequately prepare for those kinds of conditions.

I'm not upset about his play in LF yesterday. Was it bad? Yes. Did it cost the Reds the game? No.

What I'm mad about is that he wasn't really given the opportunity to transition to first base in the spring. And make no mistake, a successful Dunn transition to 1b and inserting Denorfia in CF would make this club a better team both defensively and offensively.

BRM
04-04-2006, 09:57 AM
Did someone post here that Murton only had one fly ball hit to him yesterday? If that's true, then we don't have much to compare Dunn's performance to since the wind was worse in LF, according the those at the game. Maybe Murton would have looked pretty bad as well if he'd had three or four more fly balls hit his way. Maybe not.

flyer85
04-04-2006, 09:58 AM
Now, to say Dunn is second only to Manny in fielding LF is hopefully just hyperbole, esp. after watching WMP play here the last four years.
WMP played mostly RF. Go argue with Dewan, I am just reporting the facts of his book. For everyday LFs in 2005, he and his numbers considered Dunn 29 out of 30 in LF defense(WMP wasn't in the group). Dunn is better than WMP because for those that go in person, Dunn mostly takes straight line routes to the ball while WMP almost never takes a straight line route(which obviously negates his speed).

BRM
04-04-2006, 09:58 AM
What I'm mad about is that he wasn't really given the opportunity to transition to first base in the spring. And make no mistake, a successful Dunn transition to 1b and inserting Denorfia in CF would make this club a better team both defensively and offensively.

No doubt about that. Bringing in a legit glove man to play SS and sliding Lopez to 2B would do wonders for the defense as well.

flyer85
04-04-2006, 10:02 AM
Did someone post here that Murton only had one fly ball hit to him yesterday? If that's true, then we don't have much to compare Dunn's performance to since the wind was worse in LF, according the those at the game. Maybe Murton would have looked pretty bad as well if he'd had three or four more fly balls hit his way. Maybe not.The two balls that Dunn misplayed(not the one he dropped in the first) were the two that got above the stadium and were moved by the wind. I don't recall that Murton got one of those. WOuld he have had trouble? We will never know. My issue is that in the long term the Reds are going to be better with Denorfia in CF and Dunn at 1b. BTW, "the pickin' machine" did and awful job on the only scoop(throw from EE on the bunt in the 9th) he had to try he make. He didn't go out for the ball and created and in-between bounce for himself and made what should have been an easy play into a tough one(which he missed).

BRM
04-04-2006, 10:07 AM
I agree with you flyer. I felt all spring that the Reds really needed to give the Dunn to 1B experiment a real chance. They also desperately needed to move Junior to LF. Until Krivsky moves Griffey out of CF, Dunn back to 1B and Womack off 2B, he's not really serious about improving the defense.

flyer85
04-04-2006, 10:13 AM
I agree with you flyer. I felt all spring that the Reds really needed to give the Dunn to 1B experiment a real chance. They also desperately needed to move Junior to LF. Until Krivsky moves Griffey out of CF, Dunn back to 1B and Womack off 2B, he's not really serious about improving the defense.That's pretty much the problem in a nutshell.

OnBaseMachine
04-04-2006, 10:16 AM
Did someone post here that Murton only had one fly ball hit to him yesterday? If that's true, then we don't have much to compare Dunn's performance to since the wind was worse in LF, according the those at the game. Maybe Murton would have looked pretty bad as well if he'd had three or four more fly balls hit his way. Maybe not.

I did. Murton only had one flyball hit to him...and it was more of a line drive by Kearns in the first inning. Because of that, it's very hard to compare Dunn to the other outfielders in yesterday's game.

flyer85
04-04-2006, 10:19 AM
I did. Murton only had one flyball hit to him...and it was more of a line drive by Kearns in the first inning. Because of that, it's very hard to compare Dunn to the other outfielders in yesterday's game.where were those ground ball pitchers when we needed 'em.;)

Johnny Footstool
04-04-2006, 10:26 AM
Dunn screwed up. Fans booed him. So what? He'll get over it.

Being a superstar on offense doesn't excuse him from getting booed when he doesn't perform well on defense.

IslandRed
04-04-2006, 11:10 AM
I agree with you flyer. I felt all spring that the Reds really needed to give the Dunn to 1B experiment a real chance. They also desperately needed to move Junior to LF. Until Krivsky moves Griffey out of CF, Dunn back to 1B and Womack off 2B, he's not really serious about improving the defense.

The Reds need to do lots of things. I have no doubt Krivsky would like to improve the defense, but he's not focusing on that to the exclusion of everything else. Say (as Caveat Emporer and I have speculated in the past) that Krivsky gave Adam Dunn a phone call and discovered that he'd be downright reasonable about that contract extension if he was allowed to stay in left field... well, a guy might take the gift horse and deal with the complications later. And did he really want to pick that "Junior, get out of center" fight as soon as he walked in the door?

I didn't expect the roster to instantly fix itself, and I don't view Krivsky as a miracle worker. It's going to take several moves and some time before the 25-man roster loses the Frankenstein motif.

Cedric
04-04-2006, 11:25 AM
Dunn screwed up. Fans booed him. So what? He'll get over it.

Being a superstar on offense doesn't excuse him from getting booed when he doesn't perform well on defense.

Exactly. What is the issue? It's opening day and most average Joe fans want to see a professional ballplayer make plays. He'll get over it.

vaticanplum
04-04-2006, 11:29 AM
Ok, this is my first actual season baseball game as a member of Reds Zone. You're all going to fall back in love with him, right?

Ravenlord
04-04-2006, 11:30 AM
Exactly. What is the issue? It's opening day and most average Joe fans want to see a professional ballplayer make plays. He'll get over it.
yep.*

Ravenlord
04-04-2006, 11:32 AM
Ok, this is my first actual season baseball game as a member of Reds Zone. You're all going to fall back in love with him, right?
i don't think it's nearly as bad as you think...more like that it might be entirely possible Dunn's defense single handidly cost the Reds this game...however, i was of the opninon going into the game, all sorts of pitching and defnesive oddities would happen beacause of hte cold. i really believe at least two of Dunn's mishaps were more because of weather than lack of ability (of which i'd rather see him in center than Griffey right now).*

vaticanplum
04-04-2006, 11:39 AM
Well, that's my point...I don't think it's that bad at all. I don't even think he cost them the game. I'm just looking for reassurance that the next time he blasts three homers and makes a couple of good catches in a game we will all be friends with him again.

cReds1
04-04-2006, 11:49 AM
I am humbled to be part of a message board that has so many posters who are perfect and never make a mistake at work.

Yeah he had a crappy game.

I'm just glad millions of people didn't see me at work on Saturday.

He is a professional athlete (what does this mean to you?) that has been in this game for how long now? Is he not supposed to strive for perfection? Is that not the goal?

Plus, there is a big difference in someone playing a game and getting paid millions compared to you or I, sitting at your desk (if that is what you do) and making thousands.

I can name plenty of more crappy games he has had. You know what does not show up on the gameboard, slowly running to a ball because he is slow and misplaying a ball. Yep, those don't show up in the stats. Let's put it this way, he is not a LF. He never was and never will be. Sorry if you and others do not see it that way, but this is reality. He doesn't seem like he is getting any better even though he was paid more to play better. That is the reality. You are paid to play very good.

I would love for fans to watch his whole entire game instead of just one aspect.

Cyclone792
04-04-2006, 12:03 PM
I can name plenty of more crappy games he has had. You know what does not show up on the gameboard, slowly running to a ball because he is slow and misplaying a ball. Yep, those don't show up in the stats. Let's put it this way, he is not a LF. He never was and never will be. Sorry if you and others do not see it that way, but this is reality. He doesn't seem like he is getting any better even though he was paid more to play better. That is the reality. You are paid to play very good.

I would love for fans to watch his whole entire game instead of just one aspect.

I do watch his entire game instead of just one aspect, and what I see is a player who tied for 7th in all of baseball among outfielders in win shares last season, and that includes his defense. Adam Dunn's defense in left field is the least of my concerns, because defense in left just isn't as important as it is at just about every other position in the field.

Ken Griffey, Jr. playing center field and Felipe Lopez playing shortstop are two bigger black holes defensively than Adam Dunn in left. Failing to even reach a ball you should get to is as bad as a misplay on a ball that you did get to.

Next time fans decide to boo somebody for their defense, why don't they boo Griffey for being two steps away from a ball that an average center fielder would have hauled in?

paulrichjr
04-04-2006, 12:03 PM
I was there sitting in the Sun/Moon Deck and can truthfully say that I agree with some things and disagree with some. The errors by Dunn certainly effected the game and led to the Reds probably losing the game. For example: In the first inning the muffed play led to the big home run later in the inning. Harang would have been out of it if not for that play.

Second: The entire outfield looked horrible in my opinion and it led me to think that maybe our pitching would have been a lot better if we had better defenders out there. Griffey couldn't get to a ball that led to some runs that I can guarantee you most centerfielders could have gotten to. Kearns made a throw that looked like something I could have done (in other words bad). Watching this team yesterday magnified to me just what doing the little things means over a season. Dunn, Grif, and Kearns aren't great outfielders..It makes me think though that all of this could be fixed with a few changes. Griffey could go to first base. Kearns could go to left where he would get more plays than Dunn. Dunn go to right and Denorfia go to center. I think the defense would be much better with this.

Third:

The misplay by Dunn with the ball over his head was NOT his fault. As soon as the ball was hit a massive swirling wind started. I know...I felt it. It was really bad. I'm not sure anyone could have made that catch and I mean it. The others were playable and should have been made. That one was not.

pedro
04-04-2006, 12:06 PM
No one wants to mention that Dunn did make one nice catch up agianst the wall too.

paulrichjr
04-04-2006, 12:29 PM
No one wants to mention that Dunn did make one nice catch up agianst the wall too.

A catch that he should have made and 95% of all major leaguers would have also made.

pedro
04-04-2006, 12:33 PM
A catch that he should have made and 95% of all major leaguers would have also made.

perhaps, but not necessarily on a day like yesterday. things get dicy around the wall for a lot of OF's

TeamCasey
04-04-2006, 12:44 PM
Ok, this is my first actual season baseball game as a member of Reds Zone. You're all going to fall back in love with him, right?

:laugh:

creek14
04-04-2006, 01:11 PM
I would love for fans to watch his whole entire game instead of just one aspect.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Yeah I am sure you are the only fan in the world who does.

GAC
04-04-2006, 01:52 PM
He is a professional athlete (what does this mean to you?) that has been in this game for how long now? Is he not supposed to strive for perfection? Is that not the goal?

Strive for it? Yes! Attain it? Show me an athlete who has?

Can you show evidence, other the having a bad game under pretty crappy weather conditions, where he is not striving to do just that? Why haven't we heard reports that his work ethic is lacking? Stuff like this always finds ways of getting out. It hasn't.

Just from a few irrate fans who hold athletes, because after all - the're PROFESSIONALS - up to level or standard that is unattainable. Perfection that is. ;)


Plus, there is a big difference in someone playing a game and getting paid millions compared to you or I, sitting at your desk (if that is what you do) and making thousands.

Not really. If you look at it by the principle of what is being expressed. Whatever your job is, your yearly income does not, nor should it, dictate your level of professionalism and commitment in perfroming that job.

To say that we don't have to strive for the best (or perfection) in our jobs, because our income does not stack up, whereas someone who makes millions does, is a ridiculous analogy IMO.

Go in tommorrow and tell that to your boss. ;)


I can name plenty of more crappy games he has had.

OK. Name them.


You know what does not show up on the gameboard, slowly running to a ball because he is slow and misplaying a ball. Yep, those don't show up in the stats. Let's put it this way, he is not a LF. He never was and never will be. Sorry if you and others do not see it that way, but this is reality. He doesn't seem like he is getting any better even though he was paid more to play better. That is the reality. You are paid to play very good.

I can see you're gonna beat this subject to death. :lol:


I would love for fans to watch his whole entire game instead of just one aspect.

Pot meet kettle. ;)

GAC
04-04-2006, 01:54 PM
I do watch his entire game instead of just one aspect, and what I see is a player who tied for 7th in all of baseball among outfielders in win shares last season, and that includes his defense. Adam Dunn's defense in left field is the least of my concerns, because defense in left just isn't as important as it is at just about every other position in the field.

Don't let facts get in the way Cyclone. ;)

Cyclone792
04-04-2006, 02:08 PM
Ok, this is my first actual season baseball game as a member of Reds Zone. You're all going to fall back in love with him, right?

While I can't speak for RZ, Reds fans in general have been known to treat their star players far worse than the players deserve. Griffey was booed when he injured himself in center field and had to be helped off the field. He's also been booed several other times since he came here in 2000.

http://reds.enquirer.com/2002/05/07/red_griffey_tired_of.html


Griffey says he hasn't even discussed playing somewhere else with his family. But the most upsetting thing to him is the effect this has had on his wife, Melissa, and their two children, Trey and Taryn.

“I've been trying to get my family to come here,” Griffey said. “But they don't like to because of things said at the ballpark, said to them. That gets old real quick.”

Asked for an example, Mr. Griffey said a fan shouted this at his wife at a game in Cinergy: “"Go back to Seattle and take your (blanking) husband with you,' and that was in the family section.”

---------------------

Negative publicity “started the first day,” he said. “I'm tired of it. I came here for less money. I've bent over backwards doing the right things. It always seems to get thrown in my face.”

Griffey says he's been treated worse here — his hometown — than he ever was in Seattle.

“It's not even close,” he said. “You're talking about little New York here.”

Joe Nuxhall was traded away to Kansas City in large part because he got sick and tired of the treatment fans gave him after his 1960 season. Fans also rode Ted Kluszewski out of town after a poor 1957 season in which Klu was injured and struggled.

http://reds.enquirer.com/2002/05/08/red_bowden_happy_days.html


Bowden mentioned Eric Davis and Dave Parker as two other former Reds greats whom fans also turned against. But on the fan popularity meter, Big Klu and Nuxhall far outranked those two. Yet, they, too, drew the fans' wrath.

As John Murdough, the former longtime Reds vice president points out, nobody is as much a lightning rod for fans' applause or criticism as native sons. Hamilton Joe is a perfect example. The boos were relentless and unmerciful in 1960, Murdough said.

“Powel Crosley was thinking only of Joe's career when he told Bill DeWitt to trade Joe if he could,” Murdough said.

Klu's last season as a Red was also miserable. Reds fans grew unhappy with both his lengthy rehabilitation and reported feuds with Reds management, as the once-beloved first baseman who hit 136 homers from 1953-55 could muster only 127 at-bats (six HR).

An Enquirer cartoon from that year shows a big-headed caricature of Klu swinging a bat as the “Boos” from a human-headed animal labeled “Boo Birds” rain upon him.

“People have expectations for superstars,” explained Tony Grasha, a psychologist at UC. “The superstars are not supposed to be fallible. They are supposed to walk on water.

“When one's ego is on the line, it isn't easy for one to ignore the criticism once one has opened ones ears to it,” Grasha said.

He said it's human nature for fans to seek and attribute fault to something inside the player — for instance, they “lack motivation” or are “lazy” or “don't care” — when, in fact, there's a less simple explanation involving external forces, Grasha said. In Griffey's case, those forces are injury, being restrained by medical advice from coming back sooner, and management not surrounding him with enough pitching to contend over the long haul.

Reds fans also likely share some of the blame in the terrible Frank Robinson trade. Fans were in a love-hate relationship with Robinson, and by 1965 it had turned to mostly hate. There was one point in Robinson's career that Reds manager Dick Sisler got on the PA system told the fans to knock it off with their lousy treatment of Robinson.

Lastly, never forget that Crosley Field in Cincinnati was the site where Pee Wee Reese put his arm around Jackie Robinson to show the world that Jackie was a Dodger and a teammate. The organist at Crosley played Bye, Bye Blackbird when Robinson's first ever Crosley Field game ended.

Chip R
04-04-2006, 02:23 PM
Reds fans also likely share some of the blame in the terrible Frank Robinson trade. Fans were in a love-hate relationship with Robinson, and by 1965 it had turned to mostly hate. There was one point in Robinson's career that Reds manager Dick Sisler got on the PA system told the fans to knock it off with their lousy treatment of Robinson.


As much as Reds fans like to say that trade was a huge mistake now, after the trade was made, people were highly in favor of it.

I admit I was taken aback some yeaterday when Dunn was booed. I think it was unfortunate but these things happen. The next time he hits a home run, those same fans are going to cheer him. Everybody gets booed. Rose got booed, Bench got booed, Morgan and I'm sure Perez were booed. I'll bet even Sean Casey got booed a few times. I don't boo but I really don't see what the big deal with it is. Booing isn't usually an expression of hatred. It's more like disappointment. Like, "We expect better from you." If it were hatred, the fans wouldn't cheer when they did something good.

KronoRed
04-04-2006, 02:42 PM
I want to give neg rep to the booers, do I call the Reds about that?

:D

Cyclone792
04-04-2006, 03:09 PM
As much as Reds fans like to say that trade was a huge mistake now, after the trade was made, people were highly in favor of it.

I admit I was taken aback some yeaterday when Dunn was booed. I think it was unfortunate but these things happen. The next time he hits a home run, those same fans are going to cheer him. Everybody gets booed. Rose got booed, Bench got booed, Morgan and I'm sure Perez were booed. I'll bet even Sean Casey got booed a few times. I don't boo but I really don't see what the big deal with it is. Booing isn't usually an expression of hatred. It's more like disappointment. Like, "We expect better from you." If it were hatred, the fans wouldn't cheer when they did something good.

I know most booing occurs in the context of disappointment rather than hatred, but I'm wondering if Dunn might be different animal in some fans' eyes compared to other players. I hope I'm wrong and that it's just an irrational thought, but I'm not sure yet.

Dunn's already got this silly reputation of a bum in some fans' eyes because he's below average defensively and strikes out a ton. Then when that isn't enough, they lock onto the ridiculous notion that he apparently can't ever come up with a "clutch" hit. Rational fans realize the actual value Dunn brings us, and they know that his faults are a minor quibble, if that, but there's quite a few fans out there that would love nothing more than to get rid of him because of his faults. Like you said, people were highly in favor of the Robinson trade, and IMO, it's probably because those people latched on to Robinson's small shortcomings rather than understanding the immense value he provided to the team. It makes me wonder if Dunn's just well on his way to following down the same path Reds fans sent Robinson down.

I'm trying to remember, and I could be forgetting some instances, but right now I can't recall such a high amount of negativity ever being poured down on Barry Larkin that compares with what we've already seen with Dunn since his career started. I'm sure there were times Larkin was booed, but I can't even remember those instances. Who knows, maybe it's only because Larkin was one of the most all-around complete players in history and that gave him a free pass from the negativity.

Sometimes it just seems that if you're not the complete player that Larkin was, or if you don't have the perception that Pete Rose had of giving the utmost effort, some Reds fans just concentrate on the negatives and ignore the positives.

I guess that's just what losing does to some people. It forces them to concentrate on the negatives of the guys that are actually valuable to us rather than concentrating on the real areas of the team that need improvement.

Chip R
04-04-2006, 03:30 PM
I know most booing occurs in the context of disappointment rather than hatred, but I'm wondering if Dunn might be different animal in some fans' eyes compared to other players. I hope I'm wrong and that it's just an irrational thought, but I'm not sure yet.

Dunn's already got this silly reputation of a bum in some fans' eyes because he's below average defensively and strikes out a ton. Then when that isn't enough, they lock onto the ridiculous notion that he apparently can't ever come up with a "clutch" hit. Rational fans realize the actual value Dunn brings us, and they know that his faults are a minor quibble, if that, but there's quite a few fans out there that would love nothing more than to get rid of him because of his faults. Like you said, people were highly in favor of the Robinson trade, and IMO, it's probably because those people latched on to Robinson's small shortcomings rather than understanding the immense value he provided to the team. It makes me wonder if Dunn's just well on his way to following down the same path Reds fans sent Robinson down.


I really think that it is just disappointment. If they hated the guy they wouldn't cheer for him when he did something good. I think even the dumbest Banana Phone caller knows that Dunn brings a lot to the table. They want to see him improve his all-around game but they know the Reds would be in a world of trouble if he left or was injured. I've said this before but it bears repeating. I think it is human nature to not appreciate a player like Dunn until he's gone. It is probably because people see him every day and they see him fail more often then he succeeds. It's natural to remember the failures more than the successes. Yesterday was just a bad day for him. Kinda like when Pokey made 4 errors on Opening Day. I was there and he got booed twice as bad as Dunn did. But he made up for it and went on to be a very popular player. Dunn is already there as far as popularity is concerned. One bad day is not going to get him booed out of town like Joe was.

Cyclone792
04-04-2006, 03:41 PM
I really think that it is just disappointment. If they hated the guy they wouldn't cheer for him when he did something good. I think even the dumbest Banana Phone caller knows that Dunn brings a lot to the table. They want to see him improve his all-around game but they know the Reds would be in a world of trouble if he left or was injured. I've said this before but it bears repeating. I think it is human nature to not appreciate a player like Dunn until he's gone. It is probably because people see him every day and they see him fail more often then he succeeds. It's natural to remember the failures more than the successes. Yesterday was just a bad day for him. Kinda like when Pokey made 4 errors on Opening Day. I was there and he got booed twice as bad as Dunn did. But he made up for it and went on to be a very popular player. Dunn is already there as far as popularity is concerned. One bad day is not going to get him booed out of town like Joe was.

You're definitely spot on with it being human nature that some people won't appreciate Dunn until he's gone, be it a trade, free agency, retirement, etc. It's sad, but in the end it's their loss for not appreciating the guy while he's entering his peak. It certainly won't be anyone else's fault but their own when the show is over and Dunn's no longer a Red.

I know I certainly won't feel any pity for those fans.

Sea Ray
04-04-2006, 04:08 PM
You're definitely spot on with it being human nature that some people won't appreciate Dunn until he's gone, be it a trade, free agency, retirement, etc. It's sad, but in the end it's their loss for not appreciating the guy while he's entering his peak. It certainly won't be anyone else's fault but their own when the show is over and Dunn's no longer a Red.

I know I certainly won't feel any pity for those fans.

Amazing how this thread has deteriorated into fans not appreciating Adam Dunn or wishing he was gone.

Has anyone said that he/she wishes Adam Dunn were not a Red? That he is not valuable to the team?

He was rightly criticized for having (arguably) the worst day we've ever seen from a Cincinnati outfielder. He is not immune from criticism where warranted.

His defenders come out with obscure stats that show him to be the 7th best outfielder in baseball and others defend him by saying things like "well, do you ever make mistakes at work?" Still others ask if he has my phone number.

Folks there is very little that you can sensibly write to defend this guy's play in LF and your defense of him has gotten off the wall if not outright hilarious...

traderumor
04-04-2006, 04:27 PM
Amazing how this thread has deteriorated into fans not appreciating Adam Dunn or wishing he was gone.

Has anyone said that he/she wishes Adam Dunn were not a Red? That he is not valuable to the team?

He was rightly criticized for having (arguably) the worst day we've ever seen from a Cincinnati outfielder. He is not immune from criticism where warranted.

His defenders come out with obscure stats that show him to be the 7th best outfielder in baseball and others defend him by saying things like "well, do you ever make mistakes at work?" Still others ask if he has my phone number.

Folks there is very little that you can sensibly write to defend this guy's play in LF and your defense of him has gotten off the wall if not outright hilarious...I have found that fair criticism is widely accepted. What I have seen is a few unmercifully overemphasize a point that no one is arguing against. So, I'll try one more time. Yes, Adam Dunn is no great shakes as an outfielder. That potentially exacerbated the problem yesterday. However, to totally discount that it was an anomaly highly influenced by extraordinary weather conditions makes much of the "see, he stinks in LF, move him to 1b" just so much agenda advancing from where I sit.

Cyclone792
04-04-2006, 04:29 PM
Amazing how this thread has deteriorated into fans not appreciating Adam Dunn or wishing he was gone.

Has anyone said that he/she wishes Adam Dunn were not a Red? That he is not valuable to the team?

He was rightly criticized for having (arguably) the worst day we've ever seen from a Cincinnati outfielder. He is not immune from criticism where warranted.


Hmmm ... from earlier in this thread ...


I'm not convinced that Adam Dunn has ever taken defense seriously like the great ones, Griffey Jr, Mays, even Eric Davis. My guess is Dunn thinks the best way to handle his bad day defensively is to go fishing and hope he comes back a better defensive player.

---------------

I'm comparing his work ethic with the ones who are successful. I think that has a lot to do with why those guys are gold glovers. It is not by chance.

---------------

Sure his sabermetrics looks great but don't let his OPS blind you to his shortcomings such as what was evidenced today.

---------------

I have not heard about him working on his defense like I do for guys such as Lopez and EE. I'm saying I would like to hear about him taking extra work in the OF.

---------------

Well Good Lord, you may think Adam Dunn is just a hack in the field and that's just Adam Dunn but I disagree. I think he's a whale of an athlete and in fact too good of an athlete to play LF as poorly as he does. I think if he applied himself he'd be much better. Anyone who can play QB and all the other things he's done in sports can surely catch more flyballs.

----------------

I think it's fair to judge him vs the other outfielders who played yesterday and none of them looked as inept as Dunn. The truth is yesterday wasn't the first time we've seen him drop or misjudge fly balls. This is a huge issue with his game.

All those quotes above belong to you. I'm seeing nothing but harsh, overstated criticism that's blown out of proportion and largely based on one game. Is Dunn's left field defense really a "huge issue with his game?" like you claim? If so, then how many runs and wins over the course of a full season do you think Dunn's defense costs us?

If you're disagreeing with the notion that Dunn is one of the best overall outfielders in baseball, then it'd certainly be nice to see some evidence that backs up your assertion other than constant false, wild exaggerations about Dunn's overall value.

Team Clark
04-04-2006, 06:46 PM
Strive for it? Yes! Attain it? Show me an athlete who has?

Can you show evidence, other the having a bad game under pretty crappy weather conditions, where he is not striving to do just that? Why haven't we heard reports that his work ethic is lacking? Stuff like this always finds ways of getting out. It hasn't.

The more I read the more I really feel bad for Adam. I posted yesterday that I almost felt sorry for him. Now I think I really do feel sorry him. I flew in from Fla to see the game. (Imagine the weather shock after getting off the plane.) My wife even went. She says I owe her "Big time". She must have forgotten about the time I took her to Wrigley in 41 degree weather. :laugh:

GAC, I know you are a big Adam fan. I know him personally and I am too. Some people who do not read my posts in their entirety do not think I am but I guess that is their problem.

HOWEVER, I do have a problem with your statement above. It was documented in the paper twice last season and by another Redszone member who had a direct conversation with Jerry Narron that there has been a lot of concern over Adam's work ethic. I took a beating on the site for saying as much before anything came out in the paper. (Creek doesn't even talk to me anymore :evil: ) It wasn't long after that we were reading about it in the papers.

I can say this much, Adam's work ethic this spring from what I was able to see during pre-game and eventually talk to some of the Reds coaches has improved. On the other hand I was told that Adam was no longer "interested" in playing 1B this year. What that means I have no idea. I'm not sure how to take that comment. There were some coaches who were pretty ticked that he had not picked up a 1B mitt all winter.

Regarding his play yesterday. I think most of us agree that Adam should have had that first ball. It hit his glove. The other two... I'm not sure what player in the bigs makes those plays at GABP yesterday. Lopez, in my opinion, left Adam hang out to dry on the second one. The third one... ALL hard hit balls go toward the line that they are hit nearest. Adam's first steps were towards the line and he had to turn around. He did not misjudge that ball. I was looking down the third base line and had a clear view of the ball coming off the bat. That ball took off with the wind and ended up crossing over. I have NEVER seen that before. EVER. Wind in Spring Training can at times be rough. Keeping that in mind I still have neer seen a ball cross over like that. Kearns' ball that was hit to Murton never reached a heigth for the wind to have any affect. He still made a great catch. Dunner also made a pretty nice catch too. Does Dunn need to improve on his defense. Yep. Was yesterday a fair game to judge him...no.

Why are we not talking about how good he looked at the plate? I think I posted something about how good his approach looked mid way through ST. The guy hit a LINE DRIVE bomb yesterday. Not a lofty fly...a smoking line drive. He just flat out had great AB's yesterday.

One other thing that I think a lot of fans may not realize is that the wind was nearly knocking the pitchers over on the mound. If anyone has the game taped look at Burns uniform when taking the signs. His uniform tells the story. Trying keeping your pitches down, ESPECIALLY a curve ball in those conditions. I know both starting pitchers had difficuloty feeling the ball as you could see their pitch selections changed dramtically. It was just one of those days.

TeamBoone
04-04-2006, 08:53 PM
Folks there is very little that you can sensibly write to defend this guy's play in LF and your defense of him has gotten off the wall if not outright hilarious...

People coming to his defense is no more tedious than the persistent trashing. And I in no way find either hilarious.

Falls City Beer
04-04-2006, 09:12 PM
Ok, this is my first actual season baseball game as a member of Reds Zone. You're all going to fall back in love with him, right?


This Dunn-bashing has jumped the shark.

westofyou
04-04-2006, 09:15 PM
This Dunn-bashing has jumped the shark.

Yep, it's now on par with the desk in the bathroom at Arnolds.

KronoRed
04-04-2006, 09:32 PM
Would you use a toilet next to a desk?

I wouldn't.

ochre
04-04-2006, 09:36 PM
Would you use a toilet next to a desk?

I wouldn't.
Yes, but I wouldn't use a desk next to a toilet. If you know what I'm sayin'.

Falls City Beer
04-04-2006, 09:36 PM
Would you use a toilet next to a desk?

I wouldn't.

Just poop on the desk.

Sea Ray
04-04-2006, 10:27 PM
Hmmm ... from earlier in this thread ...



All those quotes above belong to you. I'm seeing nothing but harsh, overstated criticism that's blown out of proportion and largely based on one game. Is Dunn's left field defense really a "huge issue with his game?" like you claim? If so, then how many runs and wins over the course of a full season do you think Dunn's defense costs us?

If you're disagreeing with the notion that Dunn is one of the best overall outfielders in baseball, then it'd certainly be nice to see some evidence that backs up your assertion other than constant false, wild exaggerations about Dunn's overall value.

Nothing that I said was wild or false. I stand behind all of those comments. I did not comment on whether Dunn is one of the best overall outfielders in the game. Just that his defense and his work ethic was questionable. TeamClark's comments are not the first I've read that support such a statement.

I have no idea how many runs, games or extra pitches (i.e. wear and tear on our staff) Dunn's defense costs this team. I just think since he's made it clear he does not want to play 1st base that he should apply himself better to LF.

Sea Ray
04-04-2006, 10:30 PM
People coming to his defense is no more tedious than the persistent trashing. And I in no way find either hilarious.

Yeah you're getting it now. It was the blind defenders of Dunn that were hilarious. I agree with you 100%, the other comments would not be categorized as hilarious.

Cyclone792
04-04-2006, 10:54 PM
Nothing that I said was wild or false. I stand behind all of those comments. I did not comment on whether Dunn is one of the best overall outfielders in the game. Just that his defense and his work ethic was questionable. TeamClark's comments are not the first I've read that support such a statement.

I have no idea how many runs, games or extra pitches (i.e. wear and tear on our staff) Dunn's defense costs this team. I just think since he's made it clear he does not want to play 1st base that he should apply himself better to LF.

If you have no idea how many runs or wins Dunn's below average fielding costs, then you really no basis to make the assertion that his defense is a "huge issue" with his game. How big of an issue is it? I'm interested in knowing myself.

You also make a comment that you haven't heard him working on his defense like Felipe Lopez. That's all well and good, but perhaps you should realize that Felipe Lopez was the worst defensive regular on our team last season in terms of fielding runs below the league average at their respective positions. Next in line behind Lopez was none other than Junior himself, with Dunn and Pena battling for the third spot. Dunn's a below average fielder, but he's not killing the team, and he's not even the worst on the team overall defensively. Would I like it if Dunn worked on his game defensively and improved? Sure, but if he doesn't, well then it's not too big of a deal for me to care about.

I don't know, it just seems prudent to me that if you're going to engage in several pages of Dunn bashing over his defense, that you should also be even more unhappy about the quality of defense given to us by both Felipe Lopez and Junior. Of course, human nature tells people to rip the guy with the misplay while giving a free pass to the guys who do not even have enough range to even attempt to make a play period.

I read TC's post, and it was an outstanding post on this very subject. What TC essentially said regarding Dunn's adventures yesterday is that Dunn's legitimately at fault for one misplay. One screwup. That's it. The other misplays were due to the extreme weather conditions out there, and I'm certainly not blaming Adam Dunn's defense on screwing those plays up myself. Also, what TC said about his offense is spot on, and that's what we should really be concentrating on, because Adam Dunn's offensive prowess absolutely dwarfs any and all of his defensive shortcomings.

However, if you're aware of some new fielding system that paints Dunn's defense as ugly as you've perceived and that's it as huge of an issue with his overall game that you stated it is, then I'm all ears and would be very interested in knowing more about it.

And lastly, your comment about Dunn thinking the best way to handle his defense is by going out fishing is, at best, a cheapshot. Like I said, nothing more than a collection of false, wild exaggerations.

reds44
04-04-2006, 11:25 PM
And yet some of you have turned a positive thread, into a negative one.


Nice job

KronoRed
04-04-2006, 11:30 PM
Just poop on the desk.
Now I'm really never going near that desk

TeamBoone
04-05-2006, 12:57 AM
Yeah you're getting it now. It was the blind defenders of Dunn that were hilarious. I agree with you 100%, the other comments would not be categorized as hilarious.

I didn't read any blind defense of Adam Dunn. Most (if not all) had valid reasons/stats to back up their defense. Not a bunch of drivel about his performance in one, windblown game.

GAC
04-05-2006, 06:06 AM
I just laugh at this thread after one game. :lol:

And the accusation that those of us that are simply trying to show some objectivity are now "blind loyalists" to Adam Dunn. No - many of us were at the game, and even before the game felt that the weather conditions were gonna be a factor. We were glad Milton wasn't pitching.

Yep - I'm an unabashed Dunn fan. But that doesn't mean I look the other way at any "weaknesses" he may have in his game. And his defense will always be one of those. I personally don't think he will ever win a GG (regardless of what position he plays), nor matter how hard he works.

But I wonder how many games (over and under) Adam will win for us, compared to losing for us via his defense?

What I witnessed out there Monday is not gonna be typical Adam Dunn in LF. No more then what I saw by Harang will be his typical play. Or that Womack is gonna continue to have a .750 OB% and a 1.00 SLG% = 1.75 OPS! :lol:

"Always root for the winner. That way you won't be disappointed." - Tug McGraw

"Why certainly I'd like to have that fellow who hits a home run every time at bat, who strikes out every opposing batter when he's pitching, who throws strikes to any base or the plate when he's playing outfield and who's always thinking about two innings ahead just what he'll do to baffle the other team. Any manager would want a guy like that playing for him. The only trouble is to get him to put down his cup of beer and come down out of the stands and do those things." - Danny Murtaugh, manager

KearnsyEars
04-05-2006, 09:21 AM
Why are we not talking about how good he looked at the plate? I think I posted something about how good his approach looked mid way through ST. The guy hit a LINE DRIVE bomb yesterday. Not a lofty fly...a smoking line drive. He just flat out had great AB's yesterday.

This is what Dunn is paid to do. Not be a gold glove OF. I refuse to bash him.

ochre
04-05-2006, 09:27 AM
Danny Murtaugh, manager
I loved his work in the Lethal Weapon series.

Cedric
04-05-2006, 09:34 AM
I'm sorta shocked that people think it's weird Dunn was booed during opening day. I don't know if there would be one player in the history of the game that wouldn't have been booed on opening day for that defensive performance. Does it mean Dunn is hated forever? Hell no, it's opening day and people want better. Not too mention there are a TON of random baseball fans that don't really understand the game there.

But I'm afraid this one game is going to be used all year to explain how poor Adam Dunn is mistreated by Reds fans and everyone should get on their knees and beg Adam for forgiveness.

KearnsyEars
04-05-2006, 09:56 AM
Nah. I think Dunner knows it is part of the game. When he hits 50 HR, leading the NL, I think he'll be hearing plenty of cheers. Heck, I think fans would boo Pujols for that kind of Defensive play. I've seen Dunn make some unbelievable defensive plays as well.

westofyou
04-05-2006, 10:24 AM
I'm sorta shocked that people think it's weird Dunn was booed during opening day.Yeah, because after a long winter of no baseball nothing says I missed the game more than a good boo.

Because after all perfection is all we're after, 24/7.

That's why we're Reds fans right?

paulrichjr
04-05-2006, 10:32 AM
I'm sorta shocked that people think it's weird Dunn was booed during opening day. I don't know if there would be one player in the history of the game that wouldn't have been booed on opening day for that defensive performance. Does it mean Dunn is hated forever? Hell no, it's opening day and people want better. Not too mention there are a TON of random baseball fans that don't really understand the game there.

But I'm afraid this one game is going to be used all year to explain how poor Adam Dunn is mistreated by Reds fans and everyone should get on their knees and beg Adam for forgiveness.

I was there and I DID boo also. I cheered him when he made the one good catch but I did it because of his earlier mistakes. I also cheered him wildly when he hit the bomb. I think most fans were booing him because we were saying we disapprove of his defense out there. We were cheering because of his hitting. Everytime he came up I felt that we had a good chance to make back at least one run due to his awesome hitting. Not one player on either team excited me or put fear in me like Dunn (Not even DLee). Fans boo because they care not because they are uneducated about the wonders of Adam Dunn.

TRF
04-05-2006, 10:37 AM
Strive for it? Yes! Attain it? Show me an athlete who has?



Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods and Wayne Gretzky. Mebbe Junior in the last century.

but that's about it.

traderumor
04-05-2006, 10:47 AM
I was there and I DID boo also. I cheered him when he made the one good catch but I did it because of his earlier mistakes. I also cheered him wildly when he hit the bomb. I think most fans were booing him because we were saying we disapprove of his defense out there. We were cheering because of his hitting. Everytime he came up I felt that we had a good chance to make back at least one run due to his awesome hitting. Not one player on either team excited me or put fear in me like Dunn (Not even DLee). Fans boo because they care not because they are uneducated about the wonders of Adam Dunn.I care, and I don't boo Reds' players, and anymore don't boo players at all. It might sound like I'm booing umps, but really I'm saying "c'mon, Blue." ;)

I might boo Bonds, or I might turn my back when he's hitting, I'll show him. :mooner:

Honestly, I don't think players would fail to realize when they are not performing if their fans did not boo them, do you?

Sea Ray
04-05-2006, 11:03 AM
If you have no idea how many runs or wins Dunn's below average fielding costs, then you really no basis to make the assertion that his defense is a "huge issue" with his game. How big of an issue is it? I'm interested in knowing myself.

You also make a comment that you haven't heard him working on his defense like Felipe Lopez. That's all well and good, but perhaps you should realize that Felipe Lopez was the worst defensive regular on our team last season in terms of fielding runs below the league average at their respective positions.

I

You still don't get my point regarding Lopez. My point is that his defense is poor. Why do you feel you have to remind me of that? Did I ever give you the impression that I felt his defense was OK? My point is that Lopez is working on the weaknesses of his game and that's all I can ask of the guy.

You have to get a life where stats are concerned. You can't always accurately evaluate something with stats. Stats won't tell you whether Dunn should have caught one, two or three balls Monday. We can't even all agree on that.

You've made this much bigger than I have.

For the last time, my points are:

1) Dunn is a poor left fielder

2) I wish he would work harder to improve his defensive game

If you disagree with those points then have at it.

That's it. I'm done posting on this. The rest of you can bark at the moon all you want from here on out.

MWM
04-05-2006, 11:05 AM
But the fact remains that YOU have NO IDEA how hard he works at his defense. Maybe he does, maybe doesn't work hard. But you clearly don't know either way, yet you pretend that you do.

westofyou
04-05-2006, 11:15 AM
That's it. I'm done posting on this. Finally a voice of reason.

GAC
04-05-2006, 11:20 AM
Because after all perfection is all we're after, 24/7.

That's why we're Reds fans right?

Not me. I'm a sado-masochist. ;)

Thank you sir! Can I have another!

cReds1
04-05-2006, 11:26 AM
I do watch his entire game instead of just one aspect, and what I see is a player who tied for 7th in all of baseball among outfielders in win shares last season, and that includes his defense. Adam Dunn's defense in left field is the least of my concerns, because defense in left just isn't as important as it is at just about every other position in the field.

Ken Griffey, Jr. playing center field and Felipe Lopez playing shortstop are two bigger black holes defensively than Adam Dunn in left. Failing to even reach a ball you should get to is as bad as a misplay on a ball that you did get to.

Next time fans decide to boo somebody for their defense, why don't they boo Griffey for being two steps away from a ball that an average center fielder would have hauled in?

Please explain win shares to me? What do you mean by this? I agree with you on Junior and I have been saying he should move to LF, but we know what dictates this move or does anyone?

How can you not be concerned with a players defensive play? Any type of error, mistake or lack of effort can change a game or even lose one. That was my point in that most fans neglect to even watch the defensive mistakes or don't even care about them especially Dunn. Most would rather point out his OPS then any other thing. Is this not what most do on here?

pedro
04-05-2006, 11:27 AM
Please explain win shares to me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win_shares

cReds1
04-05-2006, 11:28 AM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Yeah I am sure you are the only fan in the world who does.

When you discuss Dunn, what do you talk about or post about on him? Do you ever question his defensive skills or lack of?

cReds1
04-05-2006, 11:37 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win_shares

Thanks! I think it is a bunch of hogwash and I agree with this line...

The formula itself is extremely complicated and contains a great deal of arbitrary numbers and educated guesses.

Notice arbitrary numbers and Educated guesses. I total agree!

Once again, I point out you don't see certain things in stats that show up on the books. Saying it was a hit or was an error is up to the interpretation of the official scorer and we all know this is a person was hired by the home team. See it like you want, but this is a very subjective area when it comes to what happens in the game.

Oh btw, this was not intended for you in anyways. I was just commenting from your link.

WMR
04-05-2006, 11:39 AM
But the fact remains that YOU have NO IDEA how hard he works at his defense. Maybe he does, maybe doesn't work hard. But you clearly don't know either way, yet you pretend that you do.


02/20/2006 3:12 PM ET
Notes: Dunn transitions to first base
Wilson continues progress; Valentin joins camp
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

SARASOTA, Fla. -- In camp early with a new contract, and a new position in the field, first baseman Adam Dunn completed his first workout Monday morning.
After dealing away first baseman Sean Casey to Pittsburgh in December, Cincinnati decided to move Dunn in from left field, allowing the club to find everyday spots for outfielder Wily Mo Pena and Austin Kearns.

Dunn filled in at first base late last season when Casey was injured. He also played the position in high school.

"I anticipate doing well," Dunn said. "It should be an easier transition going from the outfield to the infield since I've played infield a little."

Although he originally agreed to participate if asked, the 26-year-old Dunn decided to pass on playing for Team USA in the World Baseball Classic because he wanted to use the time to improve defensively. While home in Texas during the offseason, he didn't take any grounders.

"I'll work on it. That's what Spring Training is for," Dunn said. "I'll come in and do some early work and try to get as good as possible -- in a hurry."

Dunn batted .247 with 40 home runs and 101 RBIs last season, which made him only the third hitter in Reds history to have back-to-back 40-homer, 100-RBI seasons. He was rewarded with a two-year, $18.5 million contract with a $13 million club option for the 2008 season, which avoided arbitration.

"First and foremost, I'm glad to have gotten it out of the way, so I don't have to deal with it," Dunn said. "I didn't want to go to arbitration and fortunately, the Reds didn't want to go either. Everything worked out for both sides, I think."


I'm not saying this should be the final indictment of Dunn's work ethic, because I don't think he was ever on board with the move to 1b. For that, I blame the Reds as much as I blame Dunn's unwillingness to recognize where he most belongs.

WOY had a great stat about how many games Dunn has played at 1b, and done a serviceable job doing so... Dunn should be willing to go where he can help the ballclub the most, not where he can have room to "run around."

I don't like Krivsky handing out "unwritten promises," if that is indeed what he did.

Asides from WOY's comment, I've seen Dunn play 1st, and he did fine.

Preparing for the move to 1st should have been a required aspect of Dunn's off-season program as soon as the Casey trade was finalized...

The organization continues to run itself ass-backwards.

WMR
04-05-2006, 11:40 AM
What I really want is some answers and an explanation for why Dunn is NOT at 1st base b/c this whole "he can't handle it" contradicts evidence clearly to the contrary and stinks to high heaven as an acceptable explanation.

pedro
04-05-2006, 11:41 AM
Thanks! I think it is a bunch of hogwash and I agree with this line...

The formula itself is extremely complicated and contains a great deal of arbitrary numbers and educated guesses.

Notice arbitrary numbers and Educated guesses. I total agree!

Once again, I point out you don't see certain things in stats that show up on the books. Saying it was a hit or was an error is up to the interpretation of the official scorer and we all know this is a person was hired by the home team. See it like you want, but this is a very subjective area when it comes to what happens in the game.

Oh btw, this was not intended for you in anyways. I was just commenting from your link.


Win shares can certainly be improved, but it really isn't "hogwash" either. Unless you don't think Bill James knows what he is talking about.

Chip R
04-05-2006, 11:44 AM
What I really want is some answers and an explanation for why Dunn is NOT at 1st base b/c this whole "he can't handle it" contradicts evidence clearly to the contrary and stinks to high heaven as an acceptable explanation.

I agree. Nobody had any problems with his defense when he filled in for Casey over the past few years and now all of a sudden he's Ron Blomberg? I don't buy it.

pedro
04-05-2006, 11:46 AM
I agree. Nobody had any problems with his defense when he filled in for Casey over the past few years and now all of a sudden he's Ron Blomberg? I don't buy it.


I agree too.

westofyou
04-05-2006, 11:47 AM
What I really want is some answers and an explanation for why Dunn is NOT at 1st baseI'm of the opinion that the Reds prefer to have Hattenberg's at bats in there as well, his pitch taking and contact first (despite the result at times) is something that the team wants/needs within an order of power driven guys who strike out. It's the reason Aurilia bats 4th in todays lineup, its the reason the Reds held on to Casey for so long. I'm fairly certain that plays into any move of Dunn back to the OF, plus the fact that they wanted him to not struggle with filling Caseys shoes in the IF and as the 2nd banana in the salary slot.

But someday he's going to have to move, as did Killebrew and Frank Howard.

No shame in that.

WMR
04-05-2006, 11:54 AM
I'm of the opinion that the Reds prefer to have Hattenberg's at bats in there as well, his pitch taking and contact first (despite the result at times) is something that the team wants/needs within an order of power driven guys who strike out. It's the reason Aurilia bats 4th in todays lineup, its the reason the Reds held on to Casey for so long. I'm fairly certain that plays into any move of Dunn back to the OF, plus the fact that they wanted him to not struggle with filling Caseys shoes in the IF and as the 2nd banana in the salary slot.

But someday he's going to have to move, as did Killebrew and Frank Howard.

No shame in that.

You mentioned the 800 lb. gorilla concerning the move of Griffey from CF to LF. IMO, these two moves, Dunn from LF to 1st and Griff from CF to LF are linked to one another. (BTW, I don't think moving Griff to 1st is an option with his injury concerns... as for Left, well, you can get hit by a bus crossing the street.)

As long as you've got Dunn in LF, moving Griff out of CF isn't an option. It is a move that can be easily shelved and put-off.

These moves that the Reds are unwilling to make represent a classic case of the tail-wagging-the-dog.

NJReds
04-05-2006, 12:01 PM
Could the new "skinny" Austin man CF w/Jr. in RF.

I know it won't happen, but didn't AK play a few games in CF?

Chip R
04-05-2006, 12:09 PM
Could the new "skinny" Austin man CF w/Jr. in RF.

I know it won't happen, but didn't AK play a few games in CF?

He played some CF a couple of years ago.

As for Jr. and Dunn moving from their respective positions, perhaps the Reds are just biding their time. It may not happen this year but perhaps next year or the year after. I don't think putting Dunn at 1st and Jr. in LF is going to transform the Reds into a world champion.

cReds1
04-05-2006, 12:11 PM
Strive for it? Yes! Attain it? Show me an athlete who has?

Can you show evidence, other the having a bad game under pretty crappy weather conditions, where he is not striving to do just that? Why haven't we heard reports that his work ethic is lacking? Stuff like this always finds ways of getting out. It hasn't.

Just from a few irrate fans who hold athletes, because after all - the're PROFESSIONALS - up to level or standard that is unattainable. Perfection that is. ;)



Not really. If you look at it by the principle of what is being expressed. Whatever your job is, your yearly income does not, nor should it, dictate your level of professionalism and commitment in perfroming that job.

To say that we don't have to strive for the best (or perfection) in our jobs, because our income does not stack up, whereas someone who makes millions does, is a ridiculous analogy IMO.

Go in tommorrow and tell that to your boss. ;)



OK. Name them.



I can see you're gonna beat this subject to death. :lol:



Pot meet kettle. ;)

So you are saying that people making millions can put in as little effort as someone who is making thousands just because it is the job they are in? If that millionaire was in the real world he would be finding another JOB. Why would someone keep that person and pay him that much? We are talking baseball here. Would you think the same way if a brain surgeon was operating on your brain?

I am just a worker bee. The millionaire makes the big bucks because he supposedly is to lead by example and he has enough experience, education and expertise to warrant the big money. He is supposed to have deserved it and have earned it. I think it should dictate the level of professionalism and commitment. I am not paid enough to make my commitment go above and beyond, now if more money was the next step then you damn skippy I am going to make every effort in making a more commitment towards my job to try and get that money. That is where the millionaire comes into play here. I guess you are thinking since the player makes millions that he does not have to put more forth of effort than anyone else in this world?

That is why I like the NFL. You don’t produce in your area of expertise then you are cut. Not with baseball though.

I don't think you want me to dig into games where Dunn misplayed balls do you? Plus, like I said before, LACK OF EFFORT does not show up in the box score. How am I going to show you this if I don't have game tapes. I know what I have seen and I am not the only one in my family that has seen the same thing. You on the other hand want to just have a blind eye to the situation and to each his or her own, but I am not going to let someone like you or anyone else make it look like Dunn never does any wrong the majority of the time.

Don't be subjective with his play is all I say.

pedro
04-05-2006, 12:16 PM
I don't think you want me to dig into games where Dunn misplayed balls do you? Plus, like I said before, LACK OF EFFORT does not show up in the box score. How am I going to show you this if I don't have game tapes. I know what I have seen and I am not the only one in my family that has seen the same thing. You on the other hand want to just have a blind eye to the situation and to each his or her own, but I am not going to let someone like you or anyone else make it look like Dunn never does any wrong the majority of the time.

Be subjective with his play is all I say.

You said that you could name numerous other games where Dunn has had similar breakdowns in the field. So yes, we do want you to name them.

We all watch the games too. I work at home. I watch almost all of them. I know Dunn isn't a gold glover, but I think he made some pretty big strides in LF last year. He is not nearly as bad as you seem to believe he is.

BTW- Being "subjective" isn't a good idea.

sub·jec·tive


adjective
Definitions:

1. not impartial: based on somebody's opinions or feelings rather than on facts or evidence



edit: I see you corrected yourself, but it seems to me that you are the one being subjective.

SteelSD
04-05-2006, 12:37 PM
Thanks! I think it is a bunch of hogwash and I agree with this line...

The formula itself is extremely complicated and contains a great deal of arbitrary numbers and educated guesses.

Notice arbitrary numbers and Educated guesses. I total agree!

Once again, I point out you don't see certain things in stats that show up on the books. Saying it was a hit or was an error is up to the interpretation of the official scorer and we all know this is a person was hired by the home team. See it like you want, but this is a very subjective area when it comes to what happens in the game.

Oh btw, this was not intended for you in anyways. I was just commenting from your link.

Then don't use Win Shares to guage anything. It appears you want an objective take on a subjective thing (defense). If that's the case, then use Zone Rating for defense. ZR tracks all balls hit into a player's "zone" and gives us a success rate based on how many of those balls a player can reasonably be expected to create Outs on.

In 2005, 18 Left Fielders put up enough Innings to qualify for the Gold Glove. Here's a ranking:

Rank. Player (Zone Rating)

1. Reed Johnson (.914 ZR)
2. Coco Crisp (.906 ZR)
3. Carl Crawford (.904 ZR)
4. Scott Podsednik (.898 ZR)
5. Cliff Floyd (.895 ZR)
6. Kevin Mench (.891 ZR)
7. Matt Holliday (.890 ZR)
7. Luis Gonzalez (.890 ZR)
9. Pat Burrell (.882 ZR)
10. Jason Bay (.864 ZR)
10. Ryan Klesko (.864 ZR)
12. Adam Dunn (.859 ZR)
13. Frank Catalanotto (.855 ZR)
14. Carlos Lee (.853 ZR)
15. Shannon Stewart (.836 ZR)
16. Miguel Cabrera (.826 ZR)
17. Hideki Matsui (.821 ZR)
18. Manny Ramirez (.729 ZR)

That means Reed Johnson produced Outs on 91.4% of the balls he could have been reasonably expected to turn into Outs. Adam Dunn produced Outs 85.9% of the time and Manny Ramirez produced Outs on 72.9% of his opportunities.

Average MLB LF Zone Rating for 2005 was .865. That places Bay and Klesko at just about average and Dunn misses average by right around half an Out per 100 chances. He ain't no Reed Johnson, Coco Crisp, or Carl Crawford, but Dunn wasn't a Miguel Cabrera, Hideki Matsui, or Manny Ramirez-level butcher there either. Dunn was slightly below average. And make no mistake- the difference between average and where Dunn was last season was about two Outs (or less) over the course of a full season in LF.

Now, what's the first tie that binds the top five players on that list? Each of them has/had the ability to patrol Center Field. Basically, the best defensive Left Fielders are displaced Center Fielders. It's not effort that separates them from the average Left Fielder. It's ability. Adam Dunn does not have the ability to cluster himself with Reed Johnson, Coco Crisp, Carl Crawford, Scott Podsednik, and Cliff Floyd defensively.

Adam Dunn, no matter how hard he works, will never achieve Outs on 90% of the baseballs he can reasonably be expected to field in Left. It's time you accepted that and moved on. And yes, the people you're arguing with have all accepted that and moved on already.

The second clumping factor you'l see on that list is that as you work your way down it, the players get better offensively- MUCH better offensively. In short, teams consistently (and consciously) swap slight defensive advantages for profound offensive advantages. It's just the way it goes. Can Dunn improve defensively in Left field? Sure, and he did last saeason. And you're way off base when suggesting that folks don't already know what kind of fielder Dunn is in LF. He's not optimal, but we already know that and have incorporated an objective view of Dunn's defensive aptitude into our opinion of Adam Dunn, the player.

GAC
04-05-2006, 12:40 PM
So you are saying that people making millions can put in as little effort as someone who is making thousands just because it is the job they are in?

No. You' re the one who seemed to be equating what one makes with the level of effort needed. I didn't. In other words - because these guys make millions, we expect some sort of perfection from them.

Striving to be one's best, or to put forth your best effort, should have nothing to do with what one makes, and regardless of the job you do/have.

But that's just me.


If that millionaire was in the real world he would be finding another JOB. Why would someone keep that person and pay him that much? We are talking baseball here. Would you think the same way if a brain surgeon was operating on your brain?

Baseball is not brain surgery. ;)

No - you can't make mistakes in brain surgery. So you're saying you expect that same level of perfection with a baseball player?.... no room for error?

No wonder you are so easily disappointed.


I am just a worker bee.

So? That means you don't have to give your best?


The millionaire makes the big bucks because he supposedly is to lead by example and he has enough experience, education and expertise to warrant the big money.

You have got to be kidding me right? He makes the big bucks because someone is dumb enough to pay them. You're not gonna get any argument from me about today's players being vastly overpaid.

But the level of perfection you demand is a little absurd. Especially since you have been harping on one aspect of Dunn's game - while being purposely oblivious to his offense - in order to rail on a player you obviously have a problem with. ;)

Evaluate the total package.


I am not paid enough to make my commitment go above and beyond, now if more money was the next step then you damn skippy I am going to make every effort in making a more commitment towards my job to try and get that money.

You must be in one dead end job then. And with that attutide you'll probably go far.


That is where the millionaire comes into play here. I guess you are thinking since the player makes millions that he does not have to put more forth of effort than anyone else in this world?

Never said that. I just don't rail on a player because they had a bad game, and where external factors (weather) probably contributed to it in some part.


That is why I like the NFL. You don’t produce in your area of expertise then you are cut. Not with baseball though.

Ahhh... so now we are getting to the crux of what you are saying - cut Dunn. ;)


I don't think you want me to dig into games where Dunn misplayed balls do you?

No more then the ones I've watched where he has made diving catches, and when playing 1B, went into the stands and caught balls. We've all already agreed that the guy is not a defensive gem in the OF. He's just not as bad as you want to make out.

You want to see a bad OFer? Watch Pena this year in RF in Boston.


Don't be subjective with his play is all I say.

Again - pot meet kettle. ;)

TeamBoone
04-05-2006, 01:19 PM
For the last time, my points are:

1) Dunn is a poor left fielder

2) I wish he would work harder to improve his defensive game



He's no gold glover out there, but he is in no way "poor".

I can't comment on the second one (actually, I don't think you can with certainty either). I read everything I can get my hands on regarding Adam Dunn and though I've maybe seen one comment, that's it. It's never been an issue.

Clemson
04-05-2006, 01:34 PM
Dunn is the man. After cathcing the 1st ball of the game for him in left field to standing O he raises his hand in appreciation

TeamBoone
04-05-2006, 01:46 PM
Class act!

KronoRed
04-05-2006, 02:36 PM
He's a goof..that's why I'm a fan :D

cReds1
04-05-2006, 03:56 PM
You said that you could name numerous other games where Dunn has had similar breakdowns in the field. So yes, we do want you to name them.

We all watch the games too. I work at home. I watch almost all of them. I know Dunn isn't a gold glover, but I think he made some pretty big strides in LF last year. He is not nearly as bad as you seem to believe he is.

BTW- Being "subjective" isn't a good idea.

sub·jec·tive


adjective
Definitions:

1. not impartial: based on somebody's opinions or feelings rather than on facts or evidence



edit: I see you corrected yourself, but it seems to me that you are the one being subjective.

No, I have never been subjective with just one area of his play. When he hits, he hits and that is great, but he needs to work on the Ks. That is another part of his game he needs to work on. He has tremendous upside, but from his past playing days in the OF I just don't see any improvement. I know it is a long season, but if you break down the time he is in the outfield you could cut his workday in half. You can use Soriano as an example. He didn't have what it took to be an everyday 2Bman. Many other players have made moves to the position they can be better productively in.

pedro
04-05-2006, 04:13 PM
No, I have never been subjective with just one area of his play. When he hits, he hits and that is great, but he needs to work on the Ks. That is another part of his game he needs to work on. He has tremendous upside, but from his past playing days in the OF I just don't see any improvement. I know it is a long season, but if you break down the time he is in the outfield you could cut his workday in half. You can use Soriano as an example. He didn't have what it took to be an everyday 2Bman. Many other players have made moves to the position they can be better productively in.


You are being subjective in your statements about his fielding. If you can bring any data or specific examples to back up your argument regarding his fielding and is inability to improve in LF then bring it on, otherwise you should probably just move to another subject.

Cyclone792
04-05-2006, 04:39 PM
You have to get a life where stats are concerned.

Thanks for the personal attack, buddy.


You've made this much bigger than I have.

For the last time, my points are:

1) Dunn is a poor left fielder

2) I wish he would work harder to improve his defensive game

If you disagree with those points then have at it.

That's it. I'm done posting on this. The rest of you can bark at the moon all you want from here on out.

Seven pages now, and you posted about a half dozen times before I chimed in. I'd say you're making this much bigger than it really is. I'm still waiting for you to quantify just how poor Dunn's defense really is. But you've already said that you "do not know." Obviously you're a fan of making assumptions without one ounce of fact to back it up. And if you respond to this, you'll again make even more assumptions without any facts to back it up.

Let's get this straight. You don't think the stats are important simply because they do not agree with your misconception of reality and your wild exaggerations.

That's where you're wrong.

cReds1
04-05-2006, 04:59 PM
No. You' re the one who seemed to be equating what one makes with the level of effort needed. I didn't. In other words - because these guys make millions, we expect some sort of perfection from them.

Striving to be one's best, or to put forth your best effort, should have nothing to do with what one makes, and regardless of the job you do/have.

But that's just me.



Really? You don't expect them to be the best they can be and the amount of money they make does not constitute on what productivity they should provide or accomplish? I need to work for you. :laugh:


You have got to be kidding me right? He makes the big bucks because someone is dumb enough to pay them. You're not gonna get any argument from me about today's players being vastly overpaid.

But the level of perfection you demand is a little absurd. Especially since you have been harping on one aspect of Dunn's game - while being purposely oblivious to his offense - in order to rail on a player you obviously have a problem with. ;)

Evaluate the total package.

I have evaluated the total package. Have you is the question? If so, then I apoplogize, but I don't read this board everyday. Maybe you have said something about his fielding, but everytime I read a thread on Dunn the majority never pinpoint this area or due just like you and state the word to the likes of that that is ABSURD. If you don't think defense is very important in this game then I don't know what to say. Yea, I am critical in this area and justifiably so.




Never said that. I just don't rail on a player because they had a bad game, and where external factors (weather) probably contributed to it in some part.

I don't recall, did Dunn blame the weather or himself? :D



Ahhh... so now we are getting to the crux of what you are saying - cut Dunn. ;)

Can't cut players in today's game. They have guaranteed contracts and the owner would have to suck up the money. It will never happen. Why would I think this anyways? I am just being critical on his defenesive skills in the OF and you never ever read where I said we should cut him. Move him around to another position? Yes!




You want to see a bad OFer? Watch Pena this year in RF in Boston.

Now we are getting somewhere. Oh, I have seen him play live and he is horrible. He will do good over in the AL though becuase they have the DH.


Don't be subjective with his play is all I say.


Again - pot meet kettle. ;)

Once again, like I said on another post, I am never subjective with a player. If he does very good in one area, you won't hear a peep from me or I will give credit where credit is due, but if something is lacking or being ignored or should I say a HOMERISM is amongst us then I speak up. What is wrong with this?

cReds1
04-05-2006, 05:03 PM
You are being subjective in your statements about his fielding. If you can bring any data or specific examples to back up your argument regarding his fielding and is inability to improve in LF then bring it on, otherwise you should probably just move to another subject.

What is so hard to understand when I said you can't show effort that is lacking or misplayed fly balls from a stat log? You have to review the games. I will bring you examples, but right now I don't have the time. I will be back.

ochre
04-05-2006, 05:05 PM
round up a full report on Larue's passed balls while you're at it. I'm sure he's not working hard either.

OnBaseMachine
04-05-2006, 05:06 PM
David Ross dropped a popup today. I guess he hasn't been working hard enough.

SteelSD
04-05-2006, 06:39 PM
Once again, like I said on another post, I am never subjective with a player.

You've been nothing BUT subjective in this thread. I gave you objective data that shows you what percentage of balls Dunn turned into Outs versus balls into his zone that he could have reasonably been expected to turn into outs.

If Dunn's 2005 Zone Rating had been driven by "effort", then we wouldn't expect to see him as close to the mean. We'd expect to see him closer to Manny Ramirez territory (a player less defensively talented than Dunn). But we don't. Instead, we see Dunn clumped with big strong guys like Bay and Klesko well below the tier that includes the sleeker, smaller, faster, more talented defenders.

Neither Jason Bay or Adam Dunn is going to turn into a Center Field-level defensive player in Left Field by trying real hard. Ain't gonna happen. But instead of properly contextualizing reality, you're kicking and screaming about some mystical perceived effort issue because it suits your subjective reasoning methodology better than if you were to actually incorporate anything remotely.

Maybe it would be better if you just tried harder?

Cedric
04-05-2006, 08:05 PM
Yeah, because after a long winter of no baseball nothing says I missed the game more than a good boo.

Because after all perfection is all we're after, 24/7.

That's why we're Reds fans right?



People weren't just booing for the hell of it. The guy misplayed three important fly balls TERRIBLY. Are you really shocked that average joe fan booed? It's not amazing or earth shattering is my only point.

That doesn't mean I agree with the booing, I don't.

westofyou
04-05-2006, 08:15 PM
Are you really shocked that average joe fan booed?Yep, after all the Opening Day sunshine Cincinnati spends blowing up the fans arse with parades, special guests year after year I would expect Average Joe to just be damn glad they have a team and just bask in the glow of MLB in their backyard. Even if they think that every play of every inning of every game for 6 months is a matter of life or death or a direct reflection on them as a person. It's just one day of the year, why act like the Romans at the Circus?

Cedric
04-05-2006, 08:20 PM
Yep, after all the Opening Day sunshine Cincinnati spends blowing up the fans arse with parades, special guests year after year I would expect Average Joe to just be damn glad they have a team and just bask in the glow of MLB in their backyard. Even if they think that every play of every inning of every game for 6 months is a matter of life or death or a direct reflection on them as a person. It's just one day of the year, why act like the Romans at the Circus?

I'm not really wanting to debate the merits of booing, like I said I disagree with it. If you want to argue that the average baseball fan is a moron than argue it with someone else. I'm just saying it shouldn't be a shock. I have season tickets and I see players get booed everytime they strike out.
You shouldn't be shocked.

westofyou
04-05-2006, 08:23 PM
You shouldn't be shocked.“The mob has many heads, but no brains”

vaticanplum
04-05-2006, 08:23 PM
Really? You don't expect them to be the best they can be and the amount of money they make does not constitute on what productivity they should provide or accomplish? I need to work for you. :laugh:

I put a full disclaimer that I have only skimmed this thread, and I don't really have anything specifically baseball-related to add because it seems that others are doing it quite well. But I really can't let this money thing slide. Do you honestly think that the more money people are paid, the better at their jobs they should be? That the more money you make, the less allowance you have to make mistakes? When did rich people suddenly become inhuman?

Salary is determined by profession, not ability. Variations in salary do occur with work ethic, but only insofar as the profession will allow. As we read this thread, there is a factory worker beginning his 16th hour of work and is amazing at what he does, and he will not make this year what some lazy dude sitting on his father's money will make before said factory worker's shift is over. Baseball players happen to make a lot of money and Adam Dunn is one of the best of the best of them. He has worked extremely hard to get where he is, but because he's been focused on sports, he sadly has not had the time to develop a superhuman imperfection-removing machine. So he still has an off-day once in awhile. I've never had ANY indication, either by his results or reports, that he doesn't work hard and try at what he does. By this logic, the Yankees are supposed to be perfect all the time, but Tampa Bay and Kansas City are given a free pass not to even try to play well. Do you really want money to be Adam Dunn's main incentive to perform well?

I'm sorry to go off on a rather unrelated tangent, but this really got under my skin. If you have problems with Adam Dunn's playing or his work ethic -- and I disagree strongly with you on both of these -- that's one thing. But to imply that he's not putting in the effort that he should relative to his salary, that's absolutely ridiculous to me. People either work hard or they don't. Money has nothing to do with it, not in this case.

Cedric
04-05-2006, 08:24 PM
“The mob has many heads, but no brains”

I agree. I think the Reds have a very knowledgable fan base. But on opening day you are gonna have some true morons out there.

GAC
04-06-2006, 02:42 AM
I will have to admit that I didn't know whether to Boo or laugh at Dunn's base running blunders yesterday. That was embarassing. :lol:

capndees
04-06-2006, 01:36 PM
You've been nothing BUT subjective in this thread....Maybe it would be better if you just tried harder?

AWESOME. You're my hero, Steels.

KronoRed
04-06-2006, 01:52 PM
Dunn wears a helmet to play guitar?

Scrappy

Sweetstop
04-06-2006, 02:03 PM
I became a big Dunn fan yesterday, when he waved to the crowd after making that catch. I love a man with a great sense of humor.