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View Full Version : O'brien really was clueless



michst
04-07-2006, 07:49 AM
This quote for Dayton Daily News:

"If one wonders if Casey would have been traded had O'Brien been fired after last season, take note. New owner Bob Castellini signed off on the trade, but insiders say he was told by O'Brien and some of his baseball people that the Reds were getting a No. 1 pitcher in Williams."

Link:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0407redssideweb.html

RedFanAlways1966
04-07-2006, 07:53 AM
I need some clarification before passing judgment on DOB's comment! Did DOB mean:

(1) A #1 starter for the REDS...

-or-

(2) A #1 starter for other MLB teams?

I think there is quite a difference in the meaning of these two things.

;)

StillFunkyB
04-07-2006, 07:59 AM
Last time Dave Williams was a #1 starter was when he was in high school.

OnBaseMachine
04-07-2006, 08:09 AM
Last time Dave Williams was a #1 starter was when he was in high school.

Dave Williams wasn't even the #1 starter on his high school team!;) ...he played high school ball with Pirates pitcher Ian Snell.

Heath
04-07-2006, 08:25 AM
Last time Dave Williams was a #1 he was pitching for Frank's Lube and Oil.

Heath
04-07-2006, 08:26 AM
This quote for Dayton Daily News:

"If one wonders if Casey would have been traded had O'Brien been fired after last season, take note. New owner Bob Castellini signed off on the trade, but insiders say he was told by O'Brien and some of his baseball people that the Reds were getting a No. 1 pitcher in Williams."

Link:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0407redssideweb.html


one would think that trading Casey with Castellini signing off on it was test of DanO's that he failed miserably.

max venable
04-07-2006, 09:01 AM
This quote for Dayton Daily News:

New owner Bob Castellini signed off on the trade, but insiders say he was told by O'Brien and some of his baseball people that the Reds were getting a No. 1 pitcher in Williams."



Doesn't that make Cast clueless, too?

traderumor
04-07-2006, 09:05 AM
There seem to be three options here:

1) Castellini is trying to save face and leave the door open for a Casey return (hope I'm wrong on that one)

2) These insiders are the same ones that fed Hal the Jim Beattie for GM false information

3) Castellini has the dough (or lettuce) and needs to meddle as little as possible in baseball operations other than to say "how much is this gonna cost me?"

Red Leader
04-07-2006, 09:07 AM
Doesn't that make Cast clueless, too?

I don't think your owner is supposed to be more baseball savvy than your GM... :dunno:

Heath
04-07-2006, 09:07 AM
I don't think your owner is supposed to be more baseball savvy than your GM... :dunno:

Bingo.

Something tells me that the previous regime wanted to trade Casey to get a pitcher, any pitcher out of it.

It's DanO being DanO. To quote Bob Seger....turn the page.

traderumor
04-07-2006, 09:09 AM
Doesn't that make Cast clueless, too?

I wouldn't be too concerned about an owner who doesn't know much about Pittsburgh Pirates players. All he needs to do is have good people running baseball operations. Steinbrenner doesn't know much about baseball as is evidenced by organizational blunders when he starts with his "we gotta win the WS no matter the cost" meddling. I don't see an owner needing to know players by name and numbers as an indication of what type of owner he'll be.

MrCinatit
04-07-2006, 09:55 AM
I don't think your owner is supposed to be more baseball savvy than your GM... :dunno:

the exception being the greatest owner of all time: George Steinbrenner

:laugh:

ah, knew i couldn't keep a straight face.

Team Clark
04-07-2006, 10:29 AM
Doesn't that make Cast clueless, too?

Yes but that comes with a Handicap. He's not expected to know who is or is not a #1 Starter (or Potential #1). O'Brien "should" know. :laugh:

princeton
04-07-2006, 10:44 AM
maybe LaRussa told him that Williams was a future no. 1

Jaycint
04-07-2006, 10:52 AM
Maybe we could flip Williams to LaRussa for Reyes since he's so high on him. :D

Red Leader
04-07-2006, 10:54 AM
Maybe we could flip Williams to LaRussa for Reyes since he's so high on him. :D


Yeah, but Walt Jocketty knows pyrite when he sees it, and if he doesn't, Bill DeWitt knows more than him....:laugh:

Heath
04-07-2006, 10:56 AM
Maybe we could flip Williams to LaRussa for Reyes since he's so high on him. :D

that's why managers manage and general managers general manage. :D

top6
04-07-2006, 11:00 AM
Dan O'brien was clearly a terrible GM, but even he could not be so stupid as to actually think Williams was a No. 1 starter. Given, however, that most people on this board supported the Casey trade, shouldn't we be thankfuly to Dan O for hoodwinking our new owner into allowing it?

Honestly, it was weird seeing Casey on the other team, but I think we are better without him, and I don't think we could have done much better than Williams. So, good work, Dan O.

RedsManRick
04-07-2006, 11:15 AM
Dan O'brien was clearly a terrible GM, but even he could not be so stupid as to actually think Williams was a No. 1 starter. Given, however, that most people on this board supported the Casey trade, shouldn't we be thankfuly to Dan O for hoodwinking our new owner into allowing it?

Honestly, it was weird seeing Casey on the other team, but I think we are better without him, and I don't think we could have done much better than Williams. So, good work, Dan O.

Money aside (since it wasn't really spend on anything other than Dave Williams & Tony Womack), would you rather have Casey or Hatteberg/Aurilia as your 1B? I would love have Casey to bat 6th in this lineup bookended by Encarnacion and Kearns. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but with only a year left on his deal, and Casey's value pretty low, we'd be in a better spot right now with Casey at 1B and as a trading chip than with Dave Williams in the rotation. Put Belisle in the rotation, bring Wagner up to fill his spot in the pen and we're definitely better.

Jaycint
04-07-2006, 11:20 AM
that's why managers manage and general managers general manage. :D


Haha, I was hoping we could maybe just circumvent upper management.

deltachi8
04-07-2006, 12:02 PM
One of the problems with the Casey deal right now is that the guy who traded him had one plan in mind then got fired. The guy who replaced him thought differently.

I am not saying the Reds should have kept Dan O - but his plan was to move Casey out to put Dunn at 1st. I was fine with that and given Casey' contract and production felt he recieved fair value for him.

Would Krivsky rather have Casey than Hatteberg? Perhapps.

I know I woudl rather Have Dunn or Griffey at first over any of the above.

flyer85
04-07-2006, 12:43 PM
The problem with the Casey trade is that Williams was going to be unloaded(Redman as well). The Pirates have a lot od decent young pitching(Duke, Gorzellany, Snell, Maholm). I sure think that a deal could have been worked for one of the young guys. The problem was the DanO probably really wanted Williams. He may pitch OK this year, who really know, but he is a 4/5 starter at best.

Krusty
04-07-2006, 01:30 PM
I would have been more comfortable if the Reds could have gotten Odalis Perez or Paul Maholm for Casey. Williams is a bottom of the rotation starter at best.

deltachi8
04-07-2006, 01:32 PM
I would have been more comfortable if the Reds could have gotten Odalis Perez or Paul Maholm for Casey. Williams is a bottom of the rotation starter at best.

I agree but I have always felt that the value for Casey was just that, a 4/5 starter.

flyer85
04-07-2006, 01:33 PM
I would have been more comfortable if the Reds could have gotten Odalis Perez or Paul Maholm for Casey. Williams is a bottom of the rotation starter at best.Heck I would have been happy with Snell. Kid has a live arm and could be effective in the pen if not as a starter.

Plus Pitt really wanted to unload Williams, he was not in their 2006 plans.

traderumor
04-07-2006, 01:50 PM
I would have been more comfortable if the Reds could have gotten Odalis Perez or Paul Maholm for Casey. Williams is a bottom of the rotation starter at best.If DanO could have gotten the Pirates to trade a pitcher belonging to another franchise, he would be king ;)

TeamBoone
04-07-2006, 02:16 PM
I need some clarification before passing judgment on DOB's comment! Did DOB mean:

(1) A #1 starter for the REDS...

-or-

(2) A #1 starter for other MLB teams?

I think there is quite a difference in the meaning of these two things.

;)

Does it matter? Dave Williams is not #1 according to either of those definitions.

Here's a quote from a Casey article today; I thought it was funny:


Ironically, O'Brien, now a special assistant with Milwaukee, was at Miller Park for Casey's first three games as a Pirate.

"I didn't see him," Casey said. "But I felt his presence."

KronoRed
04-07-2006, 02:45 PM
What is he like Darth Vader? :lol:

traderumor
04-07-2006, 03:01 PM
This is the picture Sean has hanging in his locker at PNC3464

Heath
04-07-2006, 03:28 PM
This is the picture Sean has hanging in his locker at PNC3464

You are missing the darts.

traderumor
04-07-2006, 03:40 PM
You are missing the darts.Duh, they've been on the road. :p:

MartyFan
04-07-2006, 06:43 PM
Williams is not a number 1 - 2 - 3...he is more than likely a decent number 4 or 5...I really question what else could have been gained for Casey...I really don't think much. DanO waited too long and Pants sat too long...of course Kullman could have done something but did not as well.

Krusty
04-07-2006, 06:50 PM
Williams is not a number 1 - 2 - 3...he is more than likely a decent number 4 or 5...I really question what else could have been gained for Casey...I really don't think much. DanO waited too long and Pants sat too long...of course Kullman could have done something but did not as well.

Of course he could have kept Casey and dealt him at the July trading deadline. Casey is in his walk year so he is out to put the numbers up. A decent 2006 season and some team would be willing to give up a decent prospect or two at the trading deadline.

Newport Red
04-07-2006, 10:07 PM
Of course he could have kept Casey and dealt him at the July trading deadline. Casey is in his walk year so he is out to put the numbers up. A decent 2006 season and some team would be willing to give up a decent prospect or two at the trading deadline.

Except the reds were/are desperate for ML starting pitching.

savafan
04-08-2006, 03:09 AM
The thing that disappoints me is that Dave Williams' name is so common.

First name Dave, I can attest to that being ridiculously common.

Last name Williams, if it wasn't going to be Smith or Jones, it had to be Williams.

What a common, unmemorable name. Not a bit exciting to talk about Dave Williams. I think I know a Dave Williams who works at the local Citgo Station.

redsrule2500
04-08-2006, 04:23 AM
1) Castellini is trying to save face and leave the door open for a Casey return (hope I'm wrong on that one)


Hope you are RIGHT on that one :beerme:

medford
04-08-2006, 11:33 AM
The Casey-Williams trade aside, my ultimate judgement of DanO will come in a couple of seasons. The guy did little to nothing for me on the major league level the past 2 seasons, but I'm not sure that was really his Motus Operandi (sp?) at the time. Clearly he was aiming to build the reds up thru the draft and Minors.

DanO should ultimately be judged by the success of the '04 & '05 draft classes, which must admit seems to have great potential. His development tactics may be questioned (tandem pitching staffs, taking the first strike, etc) so perhaps some (or most) of the eventual development of these 2 classes goes to the current regime. I do like what I'm seeing in terms of prospect in the low level minor leagues.

When compared to JimBo's last couple of classes and the level of talent at the upper ends, its apparent that at least to this point, DanO did a much better job of finding draftable (and signable) talent compared to Jimbo post Dunn-Kearns draft.

CougarQuest
04-08-2006, 11:38 AM
Hope you are RIGHT on that one :beerme:

I don't know if anyone heard (around or on OD), but on a radio talk show, (I know it wasn't WLW, maybe 1360?) Cast brought up out of the blue about getting Casey back next year.

cincinnati chili
04-08-2006, 11:54 AM
Dave Williams wasn't even the #1 starter on his high school team!;) ...he played high school ball with Pirates pitcher Ian Snell.

I wasn't aware of this, so I looked it up. They graduated 3 years apart, so I'm not sure they even played together. Neither was a high draft pick, but I don't know who had the better high school career.

I'm still of the opinion that this was a good move by O'Brien. I don't believe he's going to be a #1 starter. Even if he had to tell Castellini that the world was flat, it was worth it to get Casey's contract off the books. Too bad he couldn't pull the jedi mind trick on Lindner a year earlier.

traderumor
04-08-2006, 11:59 AM
The Casey-Williams trade aside, my ultimate judgement of DanO will come in a couple of seasons. The guy did little to nothing for me on the major league level the past 2 seasons, but I'm not sure that was really his Motus Operandi (sp?) at the time. Clearly he was aiming to build the reds up thru the draft and Minors.

DanO should ultimately be judged by the success of the '04 & '05 draft classes, which must admit seems to have great potential. His development tactics may be questioned (tandem pitching staffs, taking the first strike, etc) so perhaps some (or most) of the eventual development of these 2 classes goes to the current regime. I do like what I'm seeing in terms of prospect in the low level minor leagues.

When compared to JimBo's last couple of classes and the level of talent at the upper ends, its apparent that at least to this point, DanO did a much better job of finding draftable (and signable) talent compared to Jimbo post Dunn-Kearns draft.
Drafting is only a part of a GM's job, and his pick of Bailey in his first draft was disappointing. You don't necessarily have to wait to see if his picks pan out, you can evaluate now whether he seemed to have a sound drafting philosophy. Considering how thin the ranks still are in the minors after two drafts, good luck with that assessment.

TeamBoone
04-08-2006, 12:48 PM
The thing that disappoints me is that Dave Williams' name is so common.

First name Dave, I can attest to that being ridiculously common.

Last name Williams, if it wasn't going to be Smith or Jones, it had to be Williams.

What a common, unmemorable name. Not a bit exciting to talk about Dave Williams. I think I know a Dave Williams who works at the local Citgo Station.

Kinda like Ted Williams.

KronoRed
04-08-2006, 02:01 PM
I think I know a Dave Williams who works at the local Citgo Station.
Is a leftie? can he pitch? :D

savafan
04-09-2006, 12:30 AM
Kinda like Ted Williams.

Ted isn't as common as Dave. And when you have such a colorful nickname as The Splendid Splinter or Teddy Ballgame, it doesn't matter that your last name is Williams.


Dave Williams needs a nickname. How about Davey Blowout?

TeamBoone
04-09-2006, 01:43 AM
Dave Williams needs a nickname.

Once he pitches tomorrow, I'm sure one will emerge... especially in the game thread!

KronoRed
04-09-2006, 02:49 AM
The name doesn't really lend itself to nicknameness.

puca
04-09-2006, 08:02 AM
I like "Dave", or "Dave Williams".

That would be cool.

RFS62
04-09-2006, 10:06 AM
Ted isn't as common as Dave. And when you have such a colorful nickname as The Splendid Splinter or Teddy Ballgame, it doesn't matter that your last name is Williams.


Dave Williams needs a nickname. How about Davey Blowout?


So, you're saying "Davey Ballgame" doesn't get it?

And if he stinks it up, like so many seem to be expecting, maybe the "Splendid Sphincter"?

WebScorpion
04-10-2006, 01:00 PM
"Dave's not here man!" :D