PDA

View Full Version : Odd and Ends...



RedsMan3203
04-08-2006, 09:10 PM
If you had a choice of what to upgrade by the Trade Deal line. What would you upgrade?

The Bullpen?

Starting Pitchers?

1st base?

I'm going with bullpen... Our pen needs help, and quick. The Pen is our weakness... I think our Starting staff is good enough to keep us in games... Our Offense is good enough to win us games....

So, come down to the deadline for this year, or next... I'm looking for bullpen guys... Unless someone comes up with a offer good a good starter..


2nd thing....

Wayne K, has a plan with these 2nd/1st/3rd/SS people we have. Hopefully we'll see this plan work its self out soon...


3rd.

Wagner will be called up soon... By the end of next week i'm saying....

4th thing...

Made me almost wreck my car today....

There was a caller on the post game show that said Woemack, Freel and Aurilla should be starting.

Moving Dunn back to 1st, Woemack to 2nd and Aurilla to 3rd ( :bang: )

Sitting EZE on the bench. (You kidding me?!)

Also he said it should be a Freel/Woemack lead off combo and Lopez hitting like 5/6/7 hole depending on who is pitching that night.

reds44
04-08-2006, 09:11 PM
1st thing
bullpen

2nd thing

bullpen

3rd thing
bullpen

VI_RedsFan
04-08-2006, 09:12 PM
Bullpen, definately....wow....I never thought I'd hear myself say that we need to upgrade the bullpen over the rotation. No need to upgrade 1B, we're fine with Aurilia and Hattey there.

RedsMan3203
04-08-2006, 09:15 PM
Oh yah... I forgot...

Marty said something about Casey being a Red for life (meaning this is where his family is, and thats where they are going to stay, during and after his baseball carrer is over)

You think Casey will sign back with the Reds after this season?

Joseph
04-08-2006, 09:29 PM
Oh yah... I forgot...

Marty said something about Casey being a Red for life (meaning this is where his family is, and thats where they are going to stay, during and after his baseball carrer is over)

You think Casey will sign back with the Reds after this season?

Something in my gut says yes.

TOBTTReds
04-08-2006, 09:35 PM
I think we should do the same poll in a month. It might be different. I know our pen isn't good right now, but we could all very well be saying starters soon too.

As far as casey goes, hope he takes a huge paycut if he comes back. I'm fine with our lineup as is right now. Casey still leads in gidp. Casey 3, Reds 2 for the season.

RedsMan3203
04-08-2006, 09:41 PM
IF Case comes back... I hope is for a few million a year and whoever is manger at the time uses him correctly.... Lower in the order.

KronoRed
04-09-2006, 12:44 AM
If Case comes back what happens to Dunn to 1st (that will happen eventually) or Votto? not a fan of that idea.

Anyway, I wouldn't start dealing for the pen, try and find some serviceable guys around, but don't trade all out chips for it.

RBA
04-09-2006, 12:48 AM
If the starting rotation is upgraded, than you have an extra experience pitcher to go into the bullpen. So I chose rotation. Isn't it that simple?

jhiller21
04-09-2006, 01:04 AM
The pen has obviously been terrible so far. I'd be willing to give guys like Hammond and Burns a few more chances, but if a 6 run cushion isn't enough to win a game after 6 innings, it's time to bring in some new arms.

Easily, Wagner has to be a better alternative to Burns or White.

max venable
04-09-2006, 01:13 AM
We just need a bonafide closer. If we added one, we could move Merck and Weathers into setup roles, making the entire pen better immediately. Easier said than done.

It's weird not having a lights-out closer. Seems like the Reds have always had one (even Graves had his share of successes). Guess we got spoiled by Myers, Dibble, Franco, Brantley, Shaw, etc.

M2
04-09-2006, 01:24 AM
Just because the starting rotation hasn't been toxic yet doesn't mean it lacks toxicity.

The important thing for Wayne Krivsky is to keep his eye on the ball. Yes, the bullpen's horrible. Problem is the Reds have precious few resources to trade. What he needs to be getting if he moves someone like Kearns or LaRue isn't a short-term bullpen fix. He needs to snag a starter who can pay some dividends next year and the year after and the year after that.

He also needs to find some high octane arms for the bullpen. That may be a task for the offseason. It's important to remember that bullpen construction doesn't have to be a high profile endeavor. In the meantime, Krivsky ought to be open to dealing arms out of his current bullpen. If David Weathers is having a solid season, then see if he's got a market near the trade deadline.

I like the 4-1 start, but the Reds are also showing us why they aren't really a serious contender (inability to keep the other team from scoring in bunches). Don't let a wacky week in April divert you from making substantive changes that can pay long-term dividends.

reds44
04-09-2006, 01:26 AM
I am surprised more people haven't voted for the bullpen.

;)

Little Alex
04-09-2006, 02:10 AM
Casey is a .300 hitter with a pretty good glove.

Better than any 1st baseman we have now too.

I'd love to have him back next year.

wolfboy
04-09-2006, 02:32 AM
Just because the starting rotation hasn't been toxic yet doesn't mean it lacks toxicity.

The important thing for Wayne Krivsky is to keep his eye on the ball. Yes, the bullpen's horrible. Problem is the Reds have precious few resources to trade. What he needs to be getting if he moves someone like Kearns or LaRue isn't a short-term bullpen fix. He needs to snag a starter who can pay some dividends next year and the year after and the year after that.

He also needs to find some high octane arms for the bullpen. That may be a task for the offseason. It's important to remember that bullpen construction doesn't have to be a high profile endeavor. In the meantime, Krivsky ought to be open to dealing arms out of his current bullpen. If David Weathers is having a solid season, then see if he's got a market near the trade deadline.

I like the 4-1 start, but the Reds are also showing us why they aren't really a serious contender (inability to keep the other team from scoring in bunches). Don't let a wacky week in April divert you from making substantive changes that can pay long-term dividends.

Another excellent post M2. There are already several posts on the board looking to plug the holes in a 4-1 start. During some 5 game stretch during the season, the offense will look anemic. At other times, the rotation will look terrible. This team can't afford to make decisions based on knee jerk reactions. As the season goes on, the true nature of this team will become more evident. At that point, we can decide what moves will bring us the most long term value.

Like M2 said, we have little to trade from. Any move Wayne makes needs to be thought out carefully. When you are in the corner this franchise finds itself, the stakes are a lot higher. Moving a valuable piece for some temporary bullpen help is the type of move the Reds can't afford to make.

Reds Nd2
04-09-2006, 10:02 PM
If you had a choice of what to upgrade by the Trade Deal line. What would you upgrade?

I voted for the rotation because defense wasn't an option and the Reds already have an option for 1B. Unfortunantly for the Reds, they currently have that option playing left field.

Improve the defense and the pitching, rotation and bullpen, is automatically improved. What get's me is the defense could be improved without making a single trade. Move Dunn to first, Jr. to left field, and bring up Denorfia to play center field. Not only would this improve the defense, it improves the offense by replacing Hattebergs bat with Deno's in the lineup.

I think relief pitching is the thing teams who will find themselves in contention need to concern themselves with. Teams, like the Reds, who will be lucky to finish above .500 have bigger problems than who closes out the games in the 9th. The bullpen should be the easiest and the last piece of the puzzle put in place.

This team needs starting pitching. It needs guys who can be relied upon to give seven innings of quality pitching everytime out, because they don't currently have that in the rotation. That will also improve the bullpen because you aren't forced to send guys to the mound who may not have the stuff to acquire outs.

Krivsky has precious few tradeable commodities combined with a low payroll to play GM with. He needs to use those resources well and he needs to use them on starting pitching because Williams, Wilson, Milton, Balfour, etc. aren't going to get this team to respectability.

redsmetz
04-09-2006, 10:55 PM
The Pen needs immediate improvement and now. Can't wait for the trade deadline. I think the starting rotation is going to surprise people, but they can't count on Convenience Store run scoring (7-11 -:laugh: - just thought of that).

The 1st base thing will work out just fine and they really need to start doing drug testing on the call-in shows - sit EE? move Lopez down? those are correct and someone should hand that guy a little cup and tell him to wash his hands when he's done.

biggestREDSfan
04-10-2006, 01:36 AM
The Reds need the best relief pitcher they can get! They have the hitters on the team and they are scoring alot of runs. We need a guy we can count on to come in and completely shut down the other team. If we can do that we definitely would be very competitive. I can see alot of good things happening for the Reds if they can get a good closer.
Now, having Sean Casey coming back to the Reds? I would really love to see him come back to Cincinnati and finish out his career here. I also agree with RedsMan3203 who said that he hopes whoever the manager is when Casey comes back would use him lower in the batting order. I agree with him! Sean Casey is a good base hitter. Not a home run hitter. Casey is another player that brings alot of excitement to the team.
Let's get Sean Casey back for the 2007 season! :redszone:

realistic
04-10-2006, 02:09 AM
You dont trade for middle relief in April if you are the Reds, its just not realistic. You keep working on stockpiling starters and put the overlap in the pen, or you can develop a pen from the rotation of career minor leaguers at AAA.

Im all for getting a closer, but right now is not a wise time to trade for a closer. What we'd have to pay for the short term benefit is not a good idea. Its better to first try to create one. Its also hard to find a bonafide closer without a silly salary thats actually available for trade. If Boston wanted to eat a lot of Foulkes contract, which i doubt, or let go of Papelbon , theres an option but its a longshot that its workable

Id honestly give Kearns+Larue to KC for Grienke+Sisco and try the big guy as closer. I know you guys think Kearns is an allstar, but im being realistic - outfielders grow on trees and itd be nice to have them guys locked in a few years. Id also need to know a lot more about Grienkes mental situation, but id bet KC wants to just end the drama and ship him off. Might could get off with Freel+Valentin instead if its ugly, i dunno.

M2
04-10-2006, 02:14 AM
You dont trade for middle relief in April if you are the Reds, its just not realistic. You keep working on stockpiling starters and put the overlap in the pen, or you can develop a pen from the rotation of career minor leaguers at AAA.

Im all for getting a closer, but right now is not a wise time to trade for a closer. What we'd have to pay for the short term benefit is not a good idea. Its better to first try to create one. Its also hard to find a bonafide closer without a silly salary thats actually available for trade.

Excellent points.

tripleaaaron
04-10-2006, 02:34 AM
I voted rotation as well, why trade for bullpen help(unless its womack) when building for the long term. I didn't say unless its womack as a dis to him, but we all know his value isn't great and if we could get a solid reliever in exchange for him then I would jump on it.

UPRedsFan
04-10-2006, 11:18 AM
If we're dumping Womack or Aurilia, get a bullpen arm. Otherwise get prospects for the rotation.

And another thing... we're all saying it, why doesn't Narron/Krivsky see it? Improve the defense and pitching by moving Dunn back to 1st and put Denorfia in center - at least when facing a left handed pitcher! Not only does Denorfia improve the outfield but Dunn could have caught a couple high throws from Lopez and Encarnacion this past week!

Yachtzee
04-10-2006, 11:29 AM
I voted bullpen, but now that I think about it, getting more starting pitching and moving the surplus to the bullpen benefits the rotation and the bullpen.

Kc61
04-10-2006, 12:00 PM
I would give the rotation time. All five of these guys are reasonable major league starters, none great. Before dumping them for new guys, let's see how they do.

The bullpen is a different story. Guys like Hammond, White and Belisle are very shaky. Burns is questionable. The Reds are lucky that Weathers and Mercker have held up or they would have nobody down there. Wagner had a 6.11 last year, can't really count on him until he shows something at AAA. Shackelford is a possibility, but isn't an impact type guy.

So right now I would try to bring in two solid bullpen guys. Then Reds can focus again on the quest for young starting pitching.

M2
04-10-2006, 12:17 PM
So right now I would try to bring in two solid bullpen guys. Then Reds can focus again on the quest for young starting pitching.

And what do you have to trade for that young starting pitching if you've burned resources to acquire two bullpen guys? Let's say LaRue, Freel and Votto get dealt to shore up the bullpen for 2006. Now what do have to deal for that young starting pitching and do you have enough of an offense left after it's dealt? Beyond that, have you addressed the bullpen a year or two too early?

IMO it makes a lot more sense to take a long-term approach to the pen and make minor deals for interesting arms. The Reds should be looking for value in the pen and untapped upside. This team is still going to have to invest in the rotation, both in terms of cash and trade equity. Get the cow, skip the magic beans.

Kc61
04-10-2006, 12:31 PM
And what do you have to trade for that young starting pitching if you've burned resources to acquire two bullpen guys? Let's say LaRue, Freel and Votto get dealt to shore up the bullpen for 2006. Now what do have to deal for that young starting pitching and do you have enough of an offense left after it's dealt? Beyond that, have you addressed the bullpen a year or two too early?

IMO it makes a lot more sense to take a long-term approach to the pen and make minor deals for interesting arms. The Reds should be looking for value in the pen and untapped upside. This team is still going to have to invest in the rotation, both in terms of cash and trade equity. Get the cow, skip the magic beans.

I don't believe you can succeed simply by stockpiling young starters. Very few teams succeed that way. You need to combine young pitching with veteran pitching with other good players in various spots.

Right now the Reds bullpen is a disaster on paper and, so far, on the field. I would trade Freel and Valentin for a good reliever. Perhaps if and when an outfielder is traded (to shore up the defense out there), a reliever can be obtained in the deal.

I would continue to draft starting pitchers and, obviously, if a good young starter became available I would consider it. But there are other needs too.

M2
04-10-2006, 12:45 PM
I don't believe you can succeed simply by stockpiling young starters. Very few teams succeed that way. You need to combine young pitching with veteran pitching with other good players in various spots.

Right now the Reds bullpen is a disaster on paper and, so far, on the field. I would trade Freel and Valentin for a good reliever. Perhaps if and when an outfielder is traded (to shore up the defense out there), a reliever can be obtained in the deal.

I would continue to draft starting pitchers and, obviously, if a good young starter became available I would consider it. But there are other needs too.

I agree about the youth/veteran mix, but I see Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo in town and they're both in their late 20s. They are veteran arms and will only be more veteran in the coming years. Where's the high-ceiling youth?

Three years off at least if you're counting on someone from the current farm system. Heck, where's the high-celing anything for the rotation?

So you'd deal Freel, Valentin and an OF in pursuit of some pen help. And then what do you do when/if Brandon Claussen ceiling's out as a #4 starter, Eric Milton continues to be Eric Milton and Dave Williams falls victim to his pitch-to-contact ways?

Seems to me you've not only boxed yourself into a corner in that scenario, you've also nailed yourself there. You'd have burned precious resources to fix a tertiary problem that wasn't going to put you over the top in the first place and now you're even more talent poor than you were beforehand.

Kc61
04-10-2006, 01:16 PM
I guess where we differ is that I don't see the bullpen as a tertiary problem. I see it as a key factor. And I don't see much emphasis in the farm system on developing top relievers; much more effort is spent trying (often unsuccessfully) to develop starters.

I also don't agree that trading for relievers means you are foreclosed from the starter market. Problem is that you aren't getting top young starters for guys like Larue, Valentin or Freel, probably not even for Griffey at this stage. If you want to trade for top young pitching you have to trade top caliber guys from your team and farm system; I am not suggesting those types (Dunn, Lopez, prospects like Bruce or Votto) be traded for relievers or, at this stage, for anybody.

If the bullpen was passable, I would fully agree with you. But it appears to be terrible.

realistic
04-10-2006, 02:51 PM
All things considered, im also happy with the rotation for the moment, for this week, for this month maybe. But ask yourself what are bullpen pitchers? Hammond,Belisle,etc were originally starters that were forced to relief via injury or 'not making the cut'. A very very large percent of relievers were originally starters. So what sense does it make to give your trading pieces to get guys that already have had their moment in the sun ? Middle relief guys dont have a long lifespan. There are a select few Remlinger, Sullivans around but not many, look around most major league pens and you will see 'once upon a time starters'.
Its just not realistic to try to build a winner by gambling on getting a reliever that can help the team for 2+ years. Maybe the Yankess can go out and get a Jay Powell , but the Reds do not have the luxury of being able to waste trades. We must be as safe and sensible as possible. And if you aquire a starter you improve both your pen and rotation possibly longterm, if your get a career middle reliever you are just spinning the wheels for a small short term thrill.

Chip R
04-10-2006, 03:03 PM
What we need to realize about picking up some help in the bullpen is that the people who are picked up may not be any better than the guys we already have. I don't recall anyone saying that when we picked up Burns, Hammond, White, et. al. they were all going to suck and guys like Belisle would be bad as well. I know some didn't like one or two acquisitions but I don't remember anyone who predicted the bullpen would be this bad.

Now it could be that just like the starting rotation may not be this good the bullpen may not be this bad. But let's not lose sight of the forest for the trees. Picking up a couple of relievers might help short term but they aren't going to help any if Milton returns to 2005 form and if Williams is what most think he is. Even guys like Arroyo, Claussen and Harang aren't guaranteed to throw quality starts every time out.

realistic
04-10-2006, 03:09 PM
I hate to say it, but i kind of wonder how much Gullet had to do with the previous bullpen success. Kind of odd that we had 15 years of good relief while he was here. Of course, we also had 15 years of bad sp at the same time.

Chip R
04-10-2006, 03:17 PM
I hate to say it, but i kind of wonder how much Gullet had to do with the previous bullpen success. Kind of odd that we had 15 years of good relief while he was here. Of course, we also had 15 years of bad sp at the same time.

Probably not much since I believe he mainly worked with the starters and Hume's worked with the bullpen.

realistic
04-10-2006, 03:22 PM
Hume works with them in game. But Gullet always looked at film and had a larger part in deciding who entered the game and when.

motob
04-11-2006, 12:29 PM
I think the relievers are doing a decent job, Burns especially. He is a control pitcher and will pitch strikes. That's what I really like about him. He can throw strikes however the defense should be the ones to stand up and take some flaming because missed catches in the outfield, dropped balls or miscues in the infield cause some of these runs to score. I would much rather have a pitcher like Burns who can throw strikes and either get a K or get the ball in play so the defense can get some outs.