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View Full Version : Marty and Hal believe a trade is brewing



OnBaseMachine
04-09-2006, 03:28 AM
Marty and Hal were talking about this during the second inning of Saturday's game. Apparently Hal asked Narron about the acquisition of Brandon Phillips...and Narron's response was, "if I told you, I would have to kill you". Both Marty and Hal believe a trade is in the works. I believe Marc has even commented that he wouldn't be surprised to see a trade on Monday.

I'm trying to figure out who it could be. It wouldn't be an outfielder because they most likely wouldn't have sent Denorfia down knowing one of the outfielders were about to be traded.

You can absolutely not trade Felipe Lopez unless you get a bonafide number one starter in return. Edwin Encarnacion should also be untouchable unless a team dangles a Francisco Liriano or Justin Verlander type of pitching prospect.

Adam Dunn should only be dealt for two players in major league baseball: Albert Pujols or Rich Harden.

I want to hang on to Kearns, however, if someone offers a deal that blows me away then I would do it. I would only trade Freel if it nets me two power arm relievers or a #2 or 3 starting pitcher.

I would look into packaging one of the catchers plus a prospect for Jeff Francis. He will never do much in Coors Field anyways so why not go after him. Gavin Floyd is another guy I would like to have.

KronoRed
04-09-2006, 03:50 AM
I have a sinking feeling that it'll be Freel..and we won't get equal value for him, more then likely an old bullpen arm.

JohhnyBench1001
04-09-2006, 04:57 AM
That's what I'm thinking as well. We all like Freel here, but truth is he doesn't have huge value on the market, because he doesn't hit for power or have a lofty batting avg. We are looking at an old bullpen arm as you said in exchange. I would much rather trade Womack/a catcher for the same bullpen arm, and keep Freel. That way even if they do want to hand the job to Phillips then Freel can back up both middle IF spots.............and play OF if needed. He is just to valuable a utility guy to get rid of for a crappy arm...........and to make room for a kid who didn't want to listen to his coaches in Cleveland and got sent packing. I really hope we're wrong on this one.

jmcclain19
04-09-2006, 05:39 AM
Freddie Bynum is a younger, poorer version of Freel with little MLB experience and he netted Juan Dominguez last week, a guy who has quite the live arm. I'm sure that fact didn't go unnoticed by Mr. Krivsky

GOREDSGO32
04-09-2006, 05:53 AM
I read that the White Sox wanna trade a starter ... if the Reds can get something out of there, that would be pretty awesome.

Guacarock
04-09-2006, 06:06 AM
Would not only be a shame, but also lame to let Freel go for bogus bullpen fodder. Freel is the team's most qualified lead-off hitter, he's just now entering his prime and he's signed cheap for a couple of years.

We may or may not need him at 2B, but he's our best heir apparent to succeed Junior in CF and gives us options at RF, LF and 3B. The fact is, Junior should not be manning CF for us this time next year. Maybe he's traded this summer or next winter in a package for pitching and prospects. Maybe he's converted to LF or 1B. But if he's still our CF, we're asking for trouble.

Junior can still rake, but he can no longer adequately field the position. If we can transition him to another position, fine. If not, he has to be moved, and we have to have someone waiting in the wings to patrol CF.

Everyone's building up Denorfia and he looks like the real deal. But I'd like to see him collect 250 ML at-bats before pronouncing him a long-term OF fixture. He should supersub as the fourth outfielder a good half-season or so before vanquishing Kearns, Dunn, Griffey or Freel.

If Freel is on the auction block, then this new regime is not thinking ahead. Womack, Phillips or Aurilia might between them be able to hold down 2B for awhile, but none of them will ever be an acceptable lead-off batter for the Reds or a possible replacement for Junior in CF, or someone who can get the fans jazzed the same way as Freel.

Yes, we have a logjam at 2B, but Freel belongs on the team, whether at 2B or elsewhere. He isn't dead wood to be cleared away. We need a table-setter, a catalyst for our powerful offense, and he's the obvious bird in hand. The brain trust isn't to be trusted if it can't recognize his talent or why we need a legitimate lead-off man.

Speaking for myself, I think that's a more important role to fill than having a designated closer. We don't have a clearcut closer, but we do have Freel. A cup half-filled is better than one that's empty.

Royals Fan
04-09-2006, 06:55 AM
Another team to keep eye are the Twins with Tony Batisita at 3rd and Juan Castro at SS with outfield of Shannon Stewart ( who cant throw anymore ) and Torri Hunter ( Free agent aftr this year) and Mike Cuddyear as there outfield, Twins would be an legit canadiate to trade with. Krvisky know the Twins farm system and has a good working realtionship with Twins's GM Terry Ryan.

lollipopcurve
04-09-2006, 09:18 AM
Another team to keep eye are the Twins with Tony Batisita at 3rd and Juan Castro at SS with outfield of Shannon Stewart ( who cant throw anymore ) and Torri Hunter ( Free agent aftr this year) and Mike Cuddyear as there outfield, Twins would be an legit canadiate to trade with. Krvisky know the Twins farm system and has a good working realtionship with Twins's GM Terry Ryan.

Excellent point -- the Twins also have Kubel in the OF, but, as you say, they are quite weak offensively, and with Hunter possibly leaving after this year, they could be on a slippery slope. As with the Arroyo trade, it looks to be a good match.

Falls City Beer
04-09-2006, 09:48 AM
The Twins, by far, make the most sense as a trading partner. That offense sucks logs.

Dunner44
04-09-2006, 10:15 AM
Trade Rich, not Ryan... please! Or a catcher.... Ross hasn't sucked, and made a really nice play on that bunt DP. I'd be fine loosing LaRue.

Strikes Out Looking
04-09-2006, 10:34 AM
My guess is this: If the deal is Monday it will be Javier Valentin and either Aurilia or Womack for bullpen help. This gives us 2 catchers (Larue is activated on Monday) and eliminates the logjam at 2b.

Royals Fan
04-09-2006, 10:41 AM
Twins Top Ten List from Baseball America

1 Francis Liriano
2 Kubel Jason
3 Moses Matt
4 Perkins Glen
5 Swarzak Anthony
6 Span Denard
7 Garza Matt
8 Rainville Jay
9 Plouffe Trevor
10 Waldrop Kyle


I know of Matt Moses and Liriano and Perkins only.

I also being in Kansas City, they big interst in Austin from the Royals end.

I might do an Andy Sisco and R Hernandez or JP Howell for Austin. Just starting point i would tell Allard Barid- Sisco has to be in center piece in any deals

NatiRedGals
04-09-2006, 10:50 AM
On my game on my psp i traded milton straight up for joe garland :) LOL I couldnt believe it i was like now i can live with this hah. I dont think were gonna get anthor old bullpen arm though. Wayne has done much and he seems to watch his steps and if hes noticing how this bullpen is like a 3 out of 10 hes a smart guy and he knows whats hes doing so im hoping hes a new and improved aka SMART OWNER!

puca
04-09-2006, 10:52 AM
I sure hope they don't trade Freel - they have no other decent option at leadoff. If they deal Kearns, I hope it is for a young starter, not a veteran middle reliever. I would much rather they kick Womack to the curb, move Dunn, Griffey or even Kearns to 1b and insert Freel somewhere in the OF. Give Phillips a go at 2b for his glove and hope his offense comes around.

I know the bullpen stinks, but it makes no sense for the Reds to target middle relievers in trades. This team is not a middle reliever away from contending. Decent middle relievers aren't that hard to find and really don't have much of a shelf life anyhow. Their are any number of AAA starting pitchers (even non-prospects) that would probably be decent major league relievers at least for a year or two. My suggestion is to look for AA/AAA pitchers that have quirky deliveries or one plus pitch that throw strikes. They make the best middle relievers.

steig
04-09-2006, 11:03 AM
I can't see us trading Rich and getting any great value for him. He's on a one year contract and no other team really tried to sign him this off season. If we make a trade I want to see younger players or prospects coming to the team. I'm tired of the old players that will help us play .500 this year but give us nothing for the future when we need to win.

kbrake
04-09-2006, 11:20 AM
I think LaRue is the only one who will be gone for sure. LaRue by himself should be enough to pick up an arm especially if we pick up some of LaRue's money. However with 4 2nd baseman you have to believe one of them will be packaged with him. Not sure who it is but will shocked if by the time the game starts Tuesday in Chicago we havent seen a trade.

Reds1
04-09-2006, 11:23 AM
I think one of our catchers might be in the mix. Who knows though. I'm hoping we can get a closer. I think that's the key for this team who scores. WE need someone to shut down teams on the back end and we don't have that ala the past two games.

Krusty
04-09-2006, 11:32 AM
Well, if Krivsky can get Bronson Arroyo for Willy Mo Pena, the return should be greater for Austin Kearns.

And if the Twins offered either RHP Scott Baker or LHP Francisco Liriano along with another pitching prospect like RHP Boof Bonser, I can see Krivsky pulling the trigger and have Denorfia as the everyday rightfielder batting seventh in the lineup. Krivsky is high on Denorfia and knows he has nothing to prove back at Louisville.

Crash Davis
04-09-2006, 11:37 AM
Well, if Krivsky can get Bronson Arroyo for Willy Mo Pena, the return should be greater for Austin Kearns.

And if the Twins offered either RHP Scott Baker or LHP Francisco Liriano along with another pitching prospect like RHP Boof Bonser, I can see Krivsky pulling the trigger and have Denorfia as the everyday rightfielder batting seventh in the lineup. Krivsky is high on Denorfia and knows he has nothing to prove back at Louisville.

:laugh:

Krusty
04-09-2006, 11:41 AM
:laugh:

What's the matter with a Francisco Liriano for Kearns deal?

VI_RedsFan
04-09-2006, 11:48 AM
What's the matter with a Francisco Liriano for Kearns deal?

The Twins would laugh at the deal. Liriano is the left-handed version of Felix Hernandez.

Crash Davis
04-09-2006, 11:53 AM
What's the matter with a Francisco Liriano for Kearns deal?

He's off the table. The Twins wouldn't trade him for anybody on the Reds roster...In fact, I doubt there are more than 10-15 players in baseball for whom they trade Liriano.

westofyou
04-09-2006, 11:55 AM
What's the matter with a Francisco Liriano for Kearns deal?
Other than the drool on the pillow from that dream sequence?

Not much.

BigRed
04-09-2006, 12:01 PM
They have to do something. Otherwise, the trade for Phillips is just plain stupid. TOO MANY 2b. The way the roster stands now, PHillips would be of little or no use to the Reds. It would be like carrying Wily Mo 3 years ago. I also would not trade Freel unless it gets us a SOLID closer, starting 1B, or # 3 starter.

BUTLER REDSFAN
04-09-2006, 12:13 PM
why does a trade always have to be for a prospect?????

VI_RedsFan
04-09-2006, 12:16 PM
why does a trade always have to be for a prospect?????

Good question. BCast wants to win now, so I think Kriv would more likely trade for MLB-ready players rather than prospects.

PuffyPig
04-09-2006, 12:18 PM
The way the roster stands now, PHillips would be of little or no use to the Reds. It would be like carrying Wily Mo 3 years ago.

And that sure worked out badly.

It netted us 2 good years of hittinf, and our current #2 starter, who's signed cheaply for 3 years.

Let's hope Phillips is of such little use to us.

westofyou
04-09-2006, 12:19 PM
why does a trade always have to be for a prospect?????
Because the Reds have crap in the minors and they'll never get good, by just paying pitchers for something they already did.

smith288
04-09-2006, 12:26 PM
Other than the drool on the pillow from that dream sequence?

Not much.
lol

corkedbat
04-09-2006, 12:42 PM
I'd love to believe that the Phillips deal presaged one for either Aurillia or Womack, but don't think there is a market for either. Wo knows? Maybe there's someone out there desperate for help at 2B and we can package RA or TW with a catcher or reliever and get a pitching upgrade.

Unfortunately, since I don't see much of a market for those two and we have such a MI glut, I see Freel as the one having value and being the odd man out. I'm not saying this is terrible, I just hope they can get true value and something usable for him.

I also look for Larue or Valentine to be dealt before the deadline if not sooner and it wouldn't surprise me to see White or Williams as a throw-in. I look for Hammond to be released soon and possibly replaced by Shackleford.

I'm coming around to the idea that Milton is a different pitcher than last year. I'm not saying he's an ace, just exhibiting less suckitude than last year. If he keeps it up, the first time someone approaches me with a deal for a solid young starter he's gone - if for nothing else, to rid myself of the financial risk of his contract.

Kearns might be dealt, but I'm thinking it more than likely will be Junior after seeing his reduced range in CF. If there's a decent market, I'd only hold on to him if he would consider a move to 1b (I think he might be solid there). I think I'd hold on to Austin.

Dealing KGJ and Milton though would certainly open up enough space to make a run at a #1 in the off season.

In return for Junior, I'd like a young CFer to help strengthen the OF, a solid young starter and maybe a young reliever.

All-in-all, by the deadline, I'd like to see them come up with a better solution at 1B, a young CFer (if KGJ is dealt) and at least three soild young pitching prospects including a starter and closer. I wouldn't say no to an all-round young catcher to solidify the future there and, Brandon Phillips aside, I wouldn't mind a top young MI to team with FeLo for the future and get Womack off the roster.

corkedbat
04-09-2006, 12:57 PM
BTW, how are the Rox set for catching? Think they'd take LaRue, Freel or Aurilla (wishful thinking) and Dave Williams for Shealy, Francis and a prospect?

lucky bugle boy
04-09-2006, 01:07 PM
I agree totally on Free. He is worth more to us than what I can imagine we could get in return. Players like Freel seem to be undervalued on the market, so why get rid of him when you've got him on such a good deal?

lucky bugle boy
04-09-2006, 01:11 PM
I really think Larue must be in the mix. If so, I sure hope Ross fares well batting against lefties. Watching Valentin bat righy yesterday...scary.

Newman4
04-09-2006, 01:19 PM
BTW, how are the Rox set for catching? Think they'd take LaRue, Freel or Aurilla (wishful thinking) and Dave Williams for Shealy, Francis and a prospect?

The Rox are a possibility. I have kinda fell off the Francis bandwagon though. I watched him this week and apparently he has the "Oliver Perez Velocity Reduction Disease" or something, b/c he was hitting like 88 on the gun. I saw him around 92-94 when he first came up. Juan Morillo is who the Reds want from the Rockies. He touches 100 mph and threw 5 scoreless last night with 7 Ks in AA. Only 22 as well.

How about Larue for Shealy and Morillo?

Falls City Beer
04-09-2006, 01:22 PM
why does a trade always have to be for a prospect?????

It's a very fair question. Sure, we need prospects. Everybody needs prospects, except the Yankees.

But for my money, I want the vast number of my trade routes to pull in MLB or young MLB talent.

Aurilia/Denorfia can bring in prospects; Kearns/Freel should bring in MLB talent, IMO.

You can nab both--prospects and actual producers--at one time.

red-in-la
04-09-2006, 01:34 PM
We need to see that to the rest of baseball....Freel is a Chris Stynes type player.....a AAAA+ player who on a poor team get to play now and then.

Freel is an awful outfielder (IMHO)....he has a weak arm and seems very uncontrolled when running after something not right at him. Sure, he may dive and get a ball now and then, but he is just as likely, if not more likely to turn a ball in the gap inot a triple with a misjudged dive or just a poor route to the ball....(again IMHO).

Thinking Freel will bring much of anything in return is sort of a wish more than reality IMHO.

CincyRedsFan30
04-09-2006, 01:40 PM
That depends on what your definition of "much of anything" is. Will he bring us an Ace? Obviously not. He could certainly bring us a couple of very good relievers if nothing else. Guys who get on base at the top of the lineup and then make a lot of things happen when they do are pretty valuable, especially when they can play multiple positions like he can. Not only can he steal, but his stealing changes the pitchers' focus so it is more on him than the batter, which can also be good in and of itself.

reds44
04-09-2006, 01:42 PM
I read that the White Sox wanna trade a starter ... if the Reds can get something out of there, that would be pretty awesome.
There was a rumor on Marc's blog that the White Sox are offering Garland or Garcia for Griffey. I don't know if this is thrue or not because it was posted by him.

reds44
04-09-2006, 01:45 PM
All I know is this, only 3 position players on the Reds should be untouchable. 1. Felipe 2. Dunn 3. Edwin. If we could trade Freel and get equal value for him, and get this bullpen much needed help I would do it. We aren't going to be able to trade Womack or RA and get something that will actually help us. If you want to get something good, then you have to give something good.

Freel, Kearns, one of the catchers, and Griffey are the most likely to go.

VI_RedsFan
04-09-2006, 02:01 PM
There was a rumor on Marc's blog that the White Sox are offering Garland or Garcia for Griffey. I don't know if this is thrue or not because it was posted by him.

I would do Griffey for Garcia/Garland and Anderson in a heartbeat.

Newman4
04-09-2006, 02:01 PM
We need to see that to the rest of baseball....Freel is a Chris Stynes type player.....a AAAA+ player who on a poor team get to play now and then.

Freel is an awful outfielder (IMHO)....he has a weak arm and seems very uncontrolled when running after something not right at him. Sure, he may dive and get a ball now and then, but he is just as likely, if not more likely to turn a ball in the gap inot a triple with a misjudged dive or just a poor route to the ball....(again IMHO).

Thinking Freel will bring much of anything in return is sort of a wish more than reality IMHO.

I disagree. Freel is a lot faster than Stynes (36 and 37 steals the last two seasons) and has a higher career OBP. I agree he has little trade value though.

reds44
04-09-2006, 02:06 PM
I would do Griffey for Garcia/Garland and Anderson in a heartbeat.
I don't know if Anderson was included, plus we don't really need him. I would do Griffey for Garcia in a heartbeat, but Garland I might have to think about.

If you trade Griffey then Freel and Deno are your centerfielders.

BEETTLEBUG
04-09-2006, 02:14 PM
I don't know if Anderson was included, plus we don't really need him. I would do Griffey for Garcia in a heartbeat, but Garland I might have to think about.

If you trade Griffey then Freel and Deno are your centerfielders.


I don't think Jr would go to World Champ White Sox

reds44
04-09-2006, 02:15 PM
I don't think Jr would go to World Champ White Sox
Didn't he say he would last year?

M2
04-09-2006, 02:16 PM
I don't believe in trade speculation until Big Donkey says it's real.

KronoRed
04-09-2006, 02:23 PM
Didn't he say he would last year?
Not that I remember.

KronoRed
04-09-2006, 02:23 PM
Other than the drool on the pillow from that dream sequence?

Not much.
Sleep on your back :D

RedLegSuperStar
04-09-2006, 02:23 PM
I'd hope something happens by Monday. I'd dangle Valentin/Aurilia/Hatteberg for a starter. Then move Williams to the bullpen. Like said before ChiSox are dangling a starter.. but being 1-4 I don't see them coming cheap. I'd look to D-Rays maybe for Gathright. If the Rays throw in Edwin Jackson maybe the Reds can offer Belisle and Mercker.. Just hope we can bolster our staff then by doing that move starters down to relief to bolster our pen. Also if we can get a Gathright then we have a speedy lead off man who would be our LF and move Dunn back to 1st (Saw his defensive bunders on Baseball Tonight). Imagine a line up like this:

Gathright - LF
Lopez - SS
Griffey - CF
Dunn - 1ST
Encarnacion - 3RD
Kearns - RF
LaRue - C
Womack - 2ND
(Pitcher)

You have speed all troughout the line-up and the power will always be there. Dare I say it could be a line-up like the playoff Colorado Rockies teams in the past whos offense carried the team to contention while you know you pitching is average.

RedLegSuperStar
04-09-2006, 02:26 PM
Didn't he say he would last year?

I recall Pic or Lance said that last year that he would consider it. Basically and decision he'd make would involve his family.

reds44
04-09-2006, 02:28 PM
I'd hope something happens by Monday. I'd dangle Valentin/Aurilia/Hatteberg for a starter. Then move Williams to the bullpen. Like said before ChiSox are dangling a starter.. but being 1-4 I don't see them coming cheap. I'd look to D-Rays maybe for Gathright. If the Rays throw in Edwin Jackson maybe the Reds can offer Belisle and Mercker.. Just hope we can bolster our staff then by doing that move starters down to relief to bolster our pen. Also if we can get a Gathright then we have a speedy lead off man who would be our LF and move Dunn back to 1st (Saw his defensive bunders on Baseball Tonight). Imagine a line up like this:

Gathright - LF
Lopez - SS
Griffey - CF
Dunn - 1ST
Encarnacion - 3RD
Kearns - RF
LaRue - C
Womack - 2ND
(Pitcher)

You have speed all troughout the line-up and the power will always be there. Dare I say it could be a line-up like the playoff Colorado Rockies teams in the past whos offense carried the team to contention while you know you pitching is average.
I would LOVE to get Gathright

How about:
Reds get: Joey Gathright, Freddy Garcia
White Sox get: Griffey
Devil Rays get: Javy Valentin and .............

VI_RedsFan
04-09-2006, 02:38 PM
I would LOVE to get Gathright

How about:
Reds get: Joey Gathright, Freddy Garcia
White Sox get: Griffey
Devil Rays get: Javy Valentin and .............

I would do that in a second.

WVRed
04-09-2006, 03:02 PM
Well, if Krivsky can get Bronson Arroyo for Willy Mo Pena, the return should be greater for Austin Kearns.

And if the Twins offered either RHP Scott Baker or LHP Francisco Liriano along with another pitching prospect like RHP Boof Bonser, I can see Krivsky pulling the trigger and have Denorfia as the everyday rightfielder batting seventh in the lineup. Krivsky is high on Denorfia and knows he has nothing to prove back at Louisville.

Two things.

1.Liriano isnt going anywhere. You would be lucky to get Boof Bonser alone out of Austin Kearns.

2.Austin Kearns has considerably less value than Willy Mo Pena. At least when Pena was healthy, he did produce.

RedLegSuperStar
04-09-2006, 03:31 PM
I just read on Marc's page that LaRue wont be back Tuesday because he will be in Sarasota catching Paul Wilson. I wonder if he'll be even activated during the Cubs series. So that may put a damper on any deal involving a catcher just yet.

Jason LaRue will not be with the team Tuesday in Chicago. Instead, he'll head to Sarasota to catch Paul Wilson's start in extended spring training. The Reds want LaRue to get at least a little game action under his belt before he is activated from the DL.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/

max venable
04-09-2006, 03:41 PM
I think it's gonna be Kearns.

This from the Newark Star Ledger today:


WHAT WE'RE HEARING: Even with their outfield logjam apparently settled, the Reds are still shopping Austin Kearns to see if he can bring back a decent starting pitcher in a trade. LINK (http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/graziano/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/114456426318820.xml&coll=1&thispage=3)

NewEraReds
04-09-2006, 03:47 PM
Marty and Hal were talking about this during the second inning of Saturday's game. Apparently Hal asked Narron about the acquisition of Brandon Phillips...and Narron's response was, "if I told you, I would have to kill you". Both Marty and Hal believe a trade is in the works. I believe Marc has even commented that he wouldn't be surprised to see a trade on Monday.

I'm trying to figure out who it could be. It wouldn't be an outfielder because they most likely wouldn't have sent Denorfia down knowing one of the outfielders were about to be traded.

You can absolutely not trade Felipe Lopez unless you get a bonafide number one starter in return. Edwin Encarnacion should also be untouchable unless a team dangles a Francisco Liriano or Justin Verlander type of pitching prospect.

Adam Dunn should only be dealt for two players in major league baseball: Albert Pujols or Rich Harden.

I want to hang on to Kearns, however, if someone offers a deal that blows me away then I would do it. I would only trade Freel if it nets me two power arm relievers or a #2 or 3 starting pitcher.

I would look into packaging one of the catchers plus a prospect for Jeff Francis. He will never do much in Coors Field anyways so why not go after him. Gavin Floyd is another guy I would like to have.

i totally disagree. dunn isnt that good. you must think he plays great def, runs well, runs the bases right, hits for avg, drives in a ton of runs. man, id take a number 1 or 2 GREAT prospects for dunn. hes reaching legendary overrated status by reds fans. id rather have freel, lopez, kearns, etc than dunn. maybe im too down on him, but some are way to high on him. hes one dimensional. ill take a guy who can hit, run and play def over a guy who hits the ball 500 feet

NewEraReds
04-09-2006, 03:48 PM
I think it's gonna be Kearns.

This from the Newark Star Ledger today:

LINK (http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/graziano/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/114456426318820.xml&coll=1&thispage=3)
that'd be dumb imo. id trade dunn before kearns even with what dunn has done and with what kearns hasnt

VI_RedsFan
04-09-2006, 04:02 PM
i totally disagree. dunn isnt that good. you must think he plays great def, runs well, runs the bases right, hits for avg, drives in a ton of runs. man, id take a number 1 or 2 GREAT prospects for dunn. hes reaching legendary overrated status by reds fans. id rather have freel, lopez, kearns, etc than dunn. maybe im too down on him, but some are way to high on him. hes one dimensional. ill take a guy who can hit, run and play def over a guy who hits the ball 500 feet

Homeruns are not the only thing Dunn is good at. He DOES knock in a good amount of runs, scores a lot of them, always has a very high OBP, and he does have pretty solid speed for a guy his size. So are you saying you'd take a guy like let say, Carl Crawford, over a guy who can consistantly put up 40 HRs 100 RBIs 100 Runs and also put up a .900+ OPS?

reds44
04-09-2006, 04:02 PM
that'd be dumb imo. id trade dunn before kearns even with what dunn has done and with what kearns hasnt
:eek:

Why?

red-in-la
04-09-2006, 04:50 PM
I disagree. Freel is a lot faster than Stynes (36 and 37 steals the last two seasons) and has a higher career OBP. I agree he has little trade value though.

I guess I should have made myself clearer.....not like Stynes in terms of abilities per se, but like Stynes in that he is a decent ballplayer on a bad team IF and only IF he does NOT play everyday. He just isn't quite talented enough to be a regular ML player.

The Reds know it......everybody else in baseball knows it.....only those few on Redszone that cannot see this do not know it.

OnBaseMachine
04-09-2006, 04:55 PM
i totally disagree. dunn isnt that good. you must think he plays great def, runs well, runs the bases right, hits for avg, drives in a ton of runs. man, id take a number 1 or 2 GREAT prospects for dunn. hes reaching legendary overrated status by reds fans. id rather have freel, lopez, kearns, etc than dunn. maybe im too down on him, but some are way to high on him. hes one dimensional. ill take a guy who can hit, run and play def over a guy who hits the ball 500 feet

Yeah, Dunn isn't that good. He's only the first Reds player to ever have two seasons of 100+ runs, 100+ RBI, and 100+ walks. Two straight 40 homerun seasons. 160 career homeruns at age 26. Yeah, he sucks.

VI_RedsFan
04-09-2006, 05:05 PM
Yeah, Dunn isn't that good. He's only the first Reds player to ever have two seasons of 100+ runs, 100+ RBI, and 100+ walks. Two straight 40 homerun seasons. 160 career homeruns at age 26. Yeah, he sucks.

Thank you OBM. That was the point I was trying to make in my above post.

NastyBoy
04-09-2006, 07:50 PM
i totally disagree. dunn isnt that good. you must think he plays great def, runs well, runs the bases right, hits for avg, drives in a ton of runs. man, id take a number 1 or 2 GREAT prospects for dunn. hes reaching legendary overrated status by reds fans. id rather have freel, lopez, kearns, etc than dunn. maybe im too down on him, but some are way to high on him. hes one dimensional. ill take a guy who can hit, run and play def over a guy who hits the ball 500 feet

Yeah... I agree... lets trade the most prolific power hitter in reds history for a prospect. Is this guy an idiot?

VI_RedsFan
04-09-2006, 08:10 PM
Is this guy an idiot?

He is very wrong, but lets not call the guy an idiot. Don't take it that far.

kbrake
04-09-2006, 08:15 PM
I still think this team should have traded Kearns for Westbrook when they had the chance. And trading Dunn should be absolutely out of the question. I would however start to look into the very real possibility that Lopez might have to be traded at some point. Anyone know how many years he is under the Reds control after this season?

NastyBoy
04-09-2006, 08:16 PM
He is very wrong, but lets not call the guy an idiot. Don't take it that far.

Yeah.. that may have been a little much. Sorry. I am sure Jim Bowden is the only one that would agree with his assessment.

VI_RedsFan
04-09-2006, 08:16 PM
Anyone know how many years he is under the Reds control after this season?

I'm not sure, but Boras is his agent and I don't like that.

NastyBoy
04-09-2006, 08:41 PM
Anyone know how many years he is under the Reds control after this season?

Felipe Lopez eligible for free agency after the 2008 season.

NastyBoy
04-09-2006, 08:54 PM
FYI Future Reds Free Agents:

After 2007

Adam Dunn (Team Option)
Austin Kearns
Bronson Arroyo
Eric Milton
Jason LaRue

After 2008

Felippe Lopez
Aaron Harang
Ken Griffey Jr. (Team Option)

TeamBoone
04-09-2006, 09:19 PM
hes one dimensional. ill take a guy who can hit, run and play def over a guy who hits the ball 500 feet

Really. Thank God you're not the manager.

Do that and the Reds will lose a whole lot more games than they already do.

Nope, he's not a gold glover on defense, but his bat and his walks more than makes up for it... if he was a gold glover how many runs do you think he'd prevent? My guess is.... less than 10 (in a season).

Now I ask you, is that worth trading away his offensive prowess? Another thing to consider is that he could be traded to an NL team, worse, one in the NL Central. It gives me the creeps to even think of him as a competitor.

pedro
04-09-2006, 09:28 PM
Two things.



2.Austin Kearns has considerably less value than Willy Mo Pena.

I'm not buying that for a minute.

dougdirt
04-09-2006, 09:28 PM
Really. Thank God you're not the manager.

Do that and the Reds will lose a whole lot more games than they already do.

Nope, he's not a gold glover on defense, but his bat and his walks more than makes up for it... if he was a gold glover how many runs do you think he'd prevent? My guess is.... less than 10 (in a season).

Now I ask you, is that worth trading away his offensive prowess? Another thing to consider is that he could be traded to an NL team, worse, one in the NL Central. It gives me the creeps to even think of him as a competitor.

He just isnt a gold glover, the guy is absolutely horrible in the field. Yes, he is worth trading away if you can get good pitching in return. He walks a lot and hits lots of home runs. I would bet his defense would prevent more than 10 runs in a season if he were a gold glover, becuase by my count he has cost us 4 or 5 runs this week already with his defense. I think it would be bad for the Reds to trade him within the division, but outside of the division isnt so bad in my eyes. He is also a free agent in 2/3 years so he will go wherever he wants to anyways. The Reds need pitching. The Reds need defense. Trading Dunn would likely imrpove both areas dramatically.

pedro
04-09-2006, 09:32 PM
He just isnt a gold glover, the guy is absolutely horrible in the field. Yes, he is worth trading away if you can get good pitching in return. He walks a lot and hits lots of home runs. I would bet his defense would prevent more than 10 runs in a season if he were a gold glover, becuase by my count he has cost us 4 or 5 runs this week already with his defense. I think it would be bad for the Reds to trade him within the division, but outside of the division isnt so bad in my eyes. He is also a free agent in 2/3 years so he will go wherever he wants to anyways. The Reds need pitching. The Reds need defense. Trading Dunn would likely imrpove both areas dramatically.

He had a bad game opening day but I would not say he is horrible in the field.

I agree that if the Reds got offered the kings ransom for Dunn they'd have to consider it but in no way should he be the guy they're aggressively peddling.

SteelSD
04-09-2006, 09:43 PM
He just isnt a gold glover, the guy is absolutely horrible in the field. Yes, he is worth trading away if you can get good pitching in return. He walks a lot and hits lots of home runs. I would bet his defense would prevent more than 10 runs in a season if he were a gold glover, becuase by my count he has cost us 4 or 5 runs this week already with his defense. I think it would be bad for the Reds to trade him within the division, but outside of the division isnt so bad in my eyes. He is also a free agent in 2/3 years so he will go wherever he wants to anyways. The Reds need pitching. The Reds need defense. Trading Dunn would likely imrpove both areas dramatically.

Dunn was a MLB average defensive LF last season and is one of only four NL players to finish in the top 10 Runs Created list for each of the last two seasons (Pujols, Abreu, Helton are the other three). And now he's entering his age-prime years.

I'll trade anyone, but any deal involving Dunn needs to be so good that it's almost insane (if not completely insane) for the other guy to offer it. Unless a deal like that comes down the pike, you focus on swapping other lesser redundant parts (including every single propect in the Reds' system) in combination to get what you need.

Highlifeman21
04-09-2006, 09:45 PM
All I know is this, only 3 position players on the Reds should be untouchable. 1. Felipe 2. Dunn 3. Edwin. If we could trade Freel and get equal value for him, and get this bullpen much needed help I would do it. We aren't going to be able to trade Womack or RA and get something that will actually help us. If you want to get something good, then you have to give something good.

Freel, Kearns, one of the catchers, and Griffey are the most likely to go.


Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why there's so much manlove for FeLo. He's a below average defensive SS, and he's had 1 All-Star caliber year at the plate, but IIRC he struggled the 2nd half of last year. Since everyone perceives that FeLo's trade value is high right now, why not move him? We could easily put Brandon Phillips at SS, or Aurillia, or Freel and then have Aurillia or Freel or Womack at 2B. Why not go out and get that top caliber starter for FeLo if he's worth so much in the market? I think Freel has more value to our team than he does in the market, so you have to keep him, and the same goes for Aurillia and Womack, so that lowers FeLo's value to our team while his market value remains high.

Bottomline, get over the manlove, trade Felipe Lopez. Getting Brandon Phillips should have easily punched FeLo's ticket out of town for something that can help this ball club.

reds44
04-09-2006, 09:52 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why there's so much manlove for FeLo. He's a below average defensive SS, and he's had 1 All-Star caliber year at the plate, but IIRC he struggled the 2nd half of last year. Since everyone perceives that FeLo's trade value is high right now, why not move him? We could easily put Brandon Phillips at SS, or Aurillia, or Freel and then have Aurillia or Freel or Womack at 2B. Why not go out and get that top caliber starter for FeLo if he's worth so much in the market? I think Freel has more value to our team than he does in the market, so you have to keep him, and the same goes for Aurillia and Womack, so that lowers FeLo's value to our team while his market value remains high.

Bottomline, get over the manlove, trade Felipe Lopez. Getting Brandon Phillips should have easily punched FeLo's ticket out of town for something that can help this ball club.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rolleyes:

Trade your best all around player, nice.

He hit .291 last year, had a .353 OBP, .486 slugging, 23 homers, 85 rbis, and had 15 steals in his 1st career FULL season. Won the silver slugger award for best SS in the NL, and oh yeah he is 26. He is an average defensive SS, and his offense is unreal.

Yes, it is just you.

If Brandon Phillips and his .208 career batting average and .247 OBP (which is less then Felipe's career batting average) was brought here to unseat Felipe Lopez, then Lord help us.

dougdirt
04-09-2006, 09:58 PM
He had a bad game opening day but I would say he is horrible in the field.

I agree that if the Reds got offered the kings ransom for Dunn they'd have to consider it but in no way should he be the guy they're aggressively peddling.

You must have missed the game the other night when he charged a line drive only to let it go right under his glove and roll to the wall.

SteelSD, Dunn creates a lot of runs, but he is the biggest chip the Reds have to get what they need.

cincy09
04-09-2006, 10:01 PM
Filipe also seems much stronger from the right side than in the recent past. Switch hitting power shortstops don't grow on trees. Hopefully we get him locked up before it's too late!

Falls City Beer
04-09-2006, 10:02 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rolleyes:

Trade your best all around player, nice.

He hit .291 last year, had a .353 OBP, .486 slugging, 23 homers, 85 rbis, and had 15 steals in his 1st career FULL season. Won the silver slugger award for best SS in the NL, and oh yeah he is 26. He is an average defensive SS, and his offense is unreal.

Yes, it is just you.

If Brandon Phillips and his .208 career batting average and .247 OBP (which is less then Felipe's career batting average) was brought here to unseat Felipe Lopez, then Lord help us.

While I wouldn't have a problem with the Reds investing in Lopez to keep him around, I don't think it's off-base to consider Lopez as trade bait for high-end pitching.

It's trades that are going to turn this franchise around before any other mechanism of rebuilding, so plan on a few trades that hurt.

KoryMac5
04-09-2006, 10:04 PM
Three catchers and a ton of middle infielders, if something is brewing it sure does smell like a catcher and a middle infielder will be packing up here soon. Lopez with his last couple of games has some real value so you would have to get blown away. Can't see Dunn getting traded especially after Wayne worked so hard getting a deal done. My guess Valentine and one of our middle infielders for bullpen help.

reds44
04-09-2006, 10:05 PM
While I wouldn't have a problem with the Reds investing in Lopez to keep him around, I don't think it's off-base to consider Lopez as trade bait for high-end pitching.

It's trades that are going to turn this franchise around before any other mechanism of rebuilding, so plan on a few trades that hurt.
Yeah high end pitching which equals not prospects.

I am trading Dunn before I trade Lopez.

rdiersin
04-09-2006, 10:07 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rolleyes:

Trade your best all around player, nice.

He hit .291 last year, had a .353 OBP, .486 slugging, 23 homers, 85 rbis, and had 15 steals in his 1st career FULL season. Won the silver slugger award for best SS in the NL, and oh yeah he is 26. He is an average defensive SS, and his offense is unreal.

Yes, it is just you.

If Brandon Phillips and his .208 career batting average and .247 OBP (which is less then Felipe's career batting average) was brought here to unseat Felipe Lopez, then Lord help us.

If Dunn is league average LF defense, with his offense, how is FeLo with his below average defense, and decent offense the best all around player. Felipe is no where near untouchable, as you seem to think. If the right trade comes along anyone should be available, outside of maybe Dunn and EE, because he is cheap. This team needs way too much help to consider people off limits.

cincy09
04-09-2006, 10:09 PM
Does anyone think that LaRue going to Sarasota has anything to do with a deal that is close but just not finished?

reds44
04-09-2006, 10:11 PM
If Dunn is league average LF, with his offense, how is FeLo with his below average defense, and decent offense the best all around player. Felipe is no where near untouchable, as you seem to think. If the right trade comes along anyone should be available, outside of maybe Dunn and EE, because he is cheap. This team needs way too much help to consider people off limits.
You are trading Felipe before EE?????

Dunn is a terrible left fielder, who strikes out aton. I like Dunn alot (and I don't think or want him to be traded), but power hitting left fielders can be found. Felipe has the potential to hit 30 homers and drive in around 100 runs while hitting .300. He can steal bases, and he is a shortstop. It is so much harder to find a shortstop with that can of potential then it is to find an outfielder like Dunn.

OnBaseMachine
04-09-2006, 10:12 PM
After reading page four of this thread I have learned that:

1) Adam Dunn sucks and needs to be traded

2) The best hitting SS in the NL is overrated and should be traded because the Reds went out and acquired a backup infielder.

Reds fans. Gotta love them. If your not a big loveable nice guy(Casey) or an old vet who plays the game the right way then the city of Cincinnati doesn't care much for you.

reds44
04-09-2006, 10:14 PM
The bottom line is keep Dunn and Felipe and build your team around both of them.

cincy09
04-09-2006, 10:14 PM
Reds fans. Gotta love them. If your not a big loveable nice guy(Casey) or an old vet who plays the game the right way then the city of Cincinnati doesn't care much for you.

Couldn't have said it better myself

VI_RedsFan
04-09-2006, 10:14 PM
After reading page four of this thread I have learned that:

1) Adam Dunn sucks and needs to be traded

2) The best hitting SS in the NL is overrated and should be traded because the Reds went out and acquired a backup infielder.

Reds fans. Gotta love them. If your not a big loveable nice guy(Casey) or an old vet who plays the game the right way then the city of Cincinnati doesn't care much for you.

:laugh:

reds44
04-09-2006, 10:15 PM
Does anyone think that LaRue going to Sarasota has anything to do with a deal that is close but just not finished?
Not really. You can play 2 days with just one catcher, plus Hatteberg can catch if needed.

Highlifeman21
04-09-2006, 10:22 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rolleyes:

Trade your best all around player, nice.

He hit .291 last year, had a .353 OBP, .486 slugging, 23 homers, 85 rbis, and had 15 steals in his 1st career FULL season. Won the silver slugger award for best SS in the NL, and oh yeah he is 26. He is an average defensive SS, and his offense is unreal.

Yes, it is just you.

If Brandon Phillips and his .208 career batting average and .247 OBP (which is less then Felipe's career batting average) was brought here to unseat Felipe Lopez, then Lord help us.


http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/012856.php

Look who's at the bottom of that list defensively.... Felipe Lopez. We have a plethora of middle infielders who right now are putting up offense, so we can easily eliminate Lopez from that equation, add some pitching, which we DESPERATELY need, and we're overall a much better ballclub. With or without Lopez, we're still an 800 run offense. If you get someone in there with better D, then it's a win win situation. If you're convinced that Lopez is the all world answer, then move him to 2B and get the next Ozzie Smith or Omar Vizquel at SS and see how much better we improve defensively and what kind of trickle down effect that has on the ERA.

It's no secret, this team struggles defensively. Prime example: Arroyo's first start for the Reds vs. the Cubs, IIRC Ross drops D. Lee's pop up, and later on in the at bat with a new lease on life, Lee takes Arroyo yard. IIRC, during the Pirates series, Lopez himself showed a lack of range and didn't get to some balls up the middle that IMO he should have easily made, or someone with respectable range should have made.

I wouldn't look at it as Phillips unseating Lopez as much as moving Lopez to improve the complete spectrum of the Reds.

rdiersin
04-09-2006, 10:24 PM
You are trading Felipe before EE?????

Dunn is a terrible left fielder, who strikes out aton.

First off, strikeouts don't matter. They matter for prospects, but for the major leagues, they don't matter. Do a search, there are plenty of great discussions that tackle this. In fact, since strikeouts correlate with high isolated power, there is slight, but negligible, positive correlation of strikeouts with runs scored.


I like Dunn alot, but power hitting left fielders can be found. Felipe has the potential to hit 30 homers and drive in around 100 runs while hitting .300. He can steal bases, and he is a shortstop. It is so much harder to find a shortstop with that can of potential then it is to find an outfielder like Dunn.

Felipe is a below average defensive shortstop. If he is moved off of that position his value decreases. Dunn isn't just some power hitting LF. He has amazing power that doesn't grow on trees. He gets on base something fierce. He is not a dime a dozen player. I like Felipe, and don't think that the Reds should trade him for the sake of trading him, but if someone offered the same crazy return for Dunn or Felipe, I would be trading Felipe. Dunn was more valuable last season, if you look at his VORP. His PECOTA projections are better.

KronoRed
04-09-2006, 10:26 PM
Reds fans. Gotta love them. If your not a big loveable nice guy(Casey) or an old vet who plays the game the right way then the city of Cincinnati doesn't care much for you.
Hugs and talking about the old days over wins.

reds44
04-09-2006, 10:29 PM
http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/012856.php

Look who's at the bottom of that list defensively.... Felipe Lopez. We have a plethora of middle infielders who right now are putting up offense, so we can easily eliminate Lopez from that equation, add some pitching, which we DESPERATELY need, and we're overall a much better ballclub. With or without Lopez, we're still an 800 run offense. If you get someone in there with better D, then it's a win win situation. If you're convinced that Lopez is the all world answer, then move him to 2B and get the next Ozzie Smith or Omar Vizquel at SS and see how much better we improve defensively and what kind of trickle down effect that has on the ERA.

It's no secret, this team struggles defensively. Prime example: Arroyo's first start for the Reds vs. the Cubs, IIRC Ross drops D. Lee's pop up, and later on in the at bat with a new lease on life, Lee takes Arroyo yard. IIRC, during the Pirates series, Lopez himself showed a lack of range and didn't get to some balls up the middle that IMO he should have easily made, or someone with respectable range should have made.

I wouldn't look at it as Phillips unseating Lopez as much as moving Lopez to improve the complete spectrum of the Reds.
So what you are telling me is if you don't play gold glove defense then you aren't any good? You act like you can snap your fingers and you will find a 26 year old all-star with 300/30/100/20 sb potential. It isn't going to happen.

And we don't have a SS log jam. Rich cannot play SS anymore, he proved that last year, and Phillips couldn't hit a ball off of a tee. Felipe is probably going to play 155-162 game at shortstop this year, and there is a reason for that.

Like I said, keep Felipe and Dunn and build your team around them. Why people on this board can't wait to trade two guys in the mid 20's that could be the best players their position in their league RIGHT now is beyond me.

Trade Griffey for pitching, trade LaRue for pitching, trade Freel for pitching, trade Kearns for pitching, heck trade EE for pitching, but don't trade Felipe and Dunn for pitching. If you are going to "rebuild" trade Felipe or Dunn would be counterproductive. When you have a firesale you look for young guys that you can build your team around, well the reds already have two of them.

flyer85
04-09-2006, 10:32 PM
why does a trade always have to be for a prospect?????If Krivsky is making a trade to help this team now(RC supposedly wants to win now) then the trade would have a bring a couple of bullpen arm because that is the most glaring weakness on this team.

reds44
04-09-2006, 10:32 PM
First off, strikeouts don't matter. They matter for prospects, but for the major leagues, they don't matter. Do a search, there are plenty of great discussions that tackle this. In fact, since strikeouts correlate with high isolated power, there is slight, but negligible, positive correlation of strikeouts with runs scored.



Felipe is a below average defensive shortstop. If he is moved off of that position his value decreases. Dunn isn't just some power hitting LF. He has amazing power that doesn't grow on trees. He gets on base something fierce. He is not a dime a dozen player. I like Felipe, and don't think that the Reds should trade him for the sake of trading him, but if someone offered the same crazy return for Dunn or Felipe, I would be trading Felipe. Dunn was more valuable last season, if you look at his VORP. His PECOTA projections are better.
I am not trying to make this into a who is better Dunn or Felipe argument. All I am saying is Felipe AND Dunn are the last two people you should even think about trading.

VI_RedsFan
04-09-2006, 10:37 PM
Does anyone think that LaRue going to Sarasota has anything to do with a deal that is close but just not finished?

Maybe. I think by tomorrow we will see Valentin and Aurilia/Freel/Womack dealt for some bullpen help. The Dodgers seem like a pretty good fit. How about this:

Valentin, Aurilia, and White for Brazoban and Carter

Maybe throw in a prospect and see if we can Penny too. I think the Dodgers would do this for two reasons:

1. Valentin gives them a big offensive boost at catcher (I believe Sandy Alomar is their starter at the moment...:help: )

2. Aurilia replaces Nomar while he is injured and helps the team offensively. When Nomar comes back, Rich makes a nice bench player who can also play 3rd every now and then.

We do this for a simple reason...'pen help.

rdiersin
04-09-2006, 10:38 PM
Phillips couldn't hit a ball off of a tee.

So did you like FeLo before last year? Because that is not far from what Brandon Phillips is. (Hint: That's what makes this a good pickup)


Felipe Lopez

Year League Age Level AB Avg Obp Slg Ops
1998 NYPL 18 As 83 0.373 *.399 0.518 *917
1998 FSL 18 A+ 13 0.385 *.388 0.769 *1157
1999 SAL 19 A- 537 0.277 *.355 0.421 *776
2000 Sou 20 AA 463 0.257 0.303 0.371 674
2001 Sou 21 AA 72 0.222 0.309 0.361 670
2001 IL 21 AAA 358 0.279 0.337 0.506 843
2001 AL 21 MLB 177 0.26 0.304 0.418 722
2002 IL 22 AAA 173 0.318 0.419 0.457 876
2002 AL 22 MLB 282 0.227 0.287 0.387 674
2003 IL 23 AAA 143 0.28 0.333 0.399 732
2003 NL 23 MLB 197 0.213 0.313 0.299 612
2004 IL 24 AAA 293 0.273 0.329 0.423 752
2004 NL 24 MLB 264 0.242 0.314 0.405 719

Brandon Phillips

Year League Age Level AB Avg Obp Slg Ops
1999 GCL 18 Rk 169 0.29 *.352 0.408 *760
2000 SAL 19 A- 484 0.242 0.306 0.378 684
2001 FSL 20 A+ 194 0.284 0.414 0.428 842
2001 East 20 AA 265 0.298 0.337 0.449 786
2002 East 21 AA 245 0.327 0.38 0.506 886
2002 IL 21 AAA 223 0.283 0.321 0.453 774
2002 IL 21 AAA 35 0.257 0.297 0.457 754
2002 AL 21 MLB 31 0.258 0.343 0.419 762
2003 IL 22 AAA 154 0.175 0.247 0.279 526
2003 AL 22 MLB 370 0.208 0.242 0.311 553
2004 IL 23 AAA 551 0.296 0.353 0.416 769
2005 IL 24 AAA 465 0.256 0.326 0.409 735

reds44
04-09-2006, 10:43 PM
So did you like FeLo before last year? Because that is not far from what Brandon Phillips is. (Hint: That's what makes this a good pickup)


Felipe Lopez

Year League Age Level AB Avg Obp Slg Ops
1998 NYPL 18 As 83 0.373 *.399 0.518 *917
1998 FSL 18 A+ 13 0.385 *.388 0.769 *1157
1999 SAL 19 A- 537 0.277 *.355 0.421 *776
2000 Sou 20 AA 463 0.257 0.303 0.371 674
2001 Sou 21 AA 72 0.222 0.309 0.361 670
2001 IL 21 AAA 358 0.279 0.337 0.506 843
2001 AL 21 MLB 177 0.26 0.304 0.418 722
2002 IL 22 AAA 173 0.318 0.419 0.457 876
2002 AL 22 MLB 282 0.227 0.287 0.387 674
2003 IL 23 AAA 143 0.28 0.333 0.399 732
2003 NL 23 MLB 197 0.213 0.313 0.299 612
2004 IL 24 AAA 293 0.273 0.329 0.423 752
2004 NL 24 MLB 264 0.242 0.314 0.405 719

Brandon Phillips

Year League Age Level AB Avg Obp Slg Ops
1999 GCL 18 Rk 169 0.29 *.352 0.408 *760
2000 SAL 19 A- 484 0.242 0.306 0.378 684
2001 FSL 20 A+ 194 0.284 0.414 0.428 842
2001 East 20 AA 265 0.298 0.337 0.449 786
2002 East 21 AA 245 0.327 0.38 0.506 886
2002 IL 21 AAA 223 0.283 0.321 0.453 774
2002 IL 21 AAA 35 0.257 0.297 0.457 754
2002 AL 21 MLB 31 0.258 0.343 0.419 762
2003 IL 22 AAA 154 0.175 0.247 0.279 526
2003 AL 22 MLB 370 0.208 0.242 0.311 553
2004 IL 23 AAA 551 0.296 0.353 0.416 769
2005 IL 24 AAA 465 0.256 0.326 0.409 735
What was Felipes career average before last year?
And I agree BP was a good pickup.

Highlifeman21
04-09-2006, 10:50 PM
So did you like FeLo before last year? Because that is not far from what Brandon Phillips is. (Hint: That's what makes this a good pickup)


Felipe Lopez

Year League Age Level AB Avg Obp Slg Ops
1998 NYPL 18 As 83 0.373 *.399 0.518 *917
1998 FSL 18 A+ 13 0.385 *.388 0.769 *1157
1999 SAL 19 A- 537 0.277 *.355 0.421 *776
2000 Sou 20 AA 463 0.257 0.303 0.371 674
2001 Sou 21 AA 72 0.222 0.309 0.361 670
2001 IL 21 AAA 358 0.279 0.337 0.506 843
2001 AL 21 MLB 177 0.26 0.304 0.418 722
2002 IL 22 AAA 173 0.318 0.419 0.457 876
2002 AL 22 MLB 282 0.227 0.287 0.387 674
2003 IL 23 AAA 143 0.28 0.333 0.399 732
2003 NL 23 MLB 197 0.213 0.313 0.299 612
2004 IL 24 AAA 293 0.273 0.329 0.423 752
2004 NL 24 MLB 264 0.242 0.314 0.405 719

Brandon Phillips

Year League Age Level AB Avg Obp Slg Ops
1999 GCL 18 Rk 169 0.29 *.352 0.408 *760
2000 SAL 19 A- 484 0.242 0.306 0.378 684
2001 FSL 20 A+ 194 0.284 0.414 0.428 842
2001 East 20 AA 265 0.298 0.337 0.449 786
2002 East 21 AA 245 0.327 0.38 0.506 886
2002 IL 21 AAA 223 0.283 0.321 0.453 774
2002 IL 21 AAA 35 0.257 0.297 0.457 754
2002 AL 21 MLB 31 0.258 0.343 0.419 762
2003 IL 22 AAA 154 0.175 0.247 0.279 526
2003 AL 22 MLB 370 0.208 0.242 0.311 553
2004 IL 23 AAA 551 0.296 0.353 0.416 769
2005 IL 24 AAA 465 0.256 0.326 0.409 735


:beerme:

Couldn't have said it better myself... we don't know what Lopez can or can't be. He's had ONE solid year. Sure, I want to see him have continued success, but the stock market is simple... buy low, sell high.

reds44
04-09-2006, 10:51 PM
:beerme:

Couldn't have said it better myself... we don't know what Lopez can or can't be. He's had ONE solid year. Sure, I want to see him have continued success, but the stock market is simple... buy low, sell high.
Fine, but I am just gald you aren't our GM.

Gainesville Red
04-09-2006, 10:52 PM
Fine, but I am just gald you aren't our GM.

I'm glad I'm not the GM also. We'd be a mess.

DropDocK
04-09-2006, 10:53 PM
After reading page four of this thread I have learned that:

1) Adam Dunn sucks and needs to be traded

2) The best hitting SS in the NL is overrated and should be traded because the Reds went out and acquired a backup infielder.

Reds fans. Gotta love them. If your not a big loveable nice guy(Casey) or an old vet who plays the game the right way then the city of Cincinnati doesn't care much for you.

niiiice....I agree esp with point #2

Highlifeman21
04-09-2006, 10:54 PM
Fine, but I am just gald you aren't our GM.


If I were the Reds GM, I would have pulled the trigger on the deal when the Mariners wanted to give us Joel Pineiro for Sean Casey, aka trading Casey when his value was high, and not just apparently salary dumping him to the Pirates. If I were the Reds GM, I would have given a healthy Russell Branyan the starting 3B job out of ST instead of wasting everyone's time with the Brandon Larson experience/experiment.

reds44
04-09-2006, 10:58 PM
niiiice....I agree esp with point #2
:laugh:

so do i

Aronchis
04-09-2006, 10:59 PM
If I were the Reds GM, I would have pulled the trigger on the deal when the Mariners wanted to give us Joel Pineiro for Sean Casey, aka trading Casey when his value was high, and not just apparently salary dumping him to the Pirates. If I were the Reds GM, I would have given a healthy Russell Branyan the starting 3B job out of ST instead of wasting everyone's time with the Brandon Larson experience/experiment.

Yeah, but Sean Casey wasn't a franchise talent. Felipe may be one. You don't trade franchise talent, you build around them and get rid of the soon to be overpaid or old aging talent that no longer fits your model(Casey and Griffey fit this). We waited to long with Casey, because we mis-diagnoised him as a franchise talent, Griffey we have not been able to deal because of injury.

Felipe is one of the most dynamic players in the game IMO. His rise was 1 of the huge reasons last year, the Reds offense improved over a decent 2004.

flyer85
04-09-2006, 11:07 PM
I am sure Wayne has decided who he would like to try and build around. You have to build around somebody, otherwise you become like the Royals and Expos.

kbrake
04-09-2006, 11:13 PM
The only reason I would trade Felipe is if a deal can not be reached with Boras and with the reputation Boras has earned I think people need to realize that might be a very distinct possibility. If you can sign him thats great I would not trade him, he is my favorite player on the team. As far as trading Dunn, I wouldnt, because I dont know that you would ever get good enough value in return.

reds44
04-09-2006, 11:15 PM
The only reason I would trade Felipe is if a deal can not be reached with Boras and with the reputation Boras has earned I think people need to realize that might be a very distinct possibility. If you can sign him thats great I would not trade him, he is my favorite player on the team. As far as trading Dunn, I wouldnt, because I dont know that you would ever get good enough value in return.
Felipe isn't a free agent for another 2 years. If we are struggling with Boras around the trade deadline next year, then things could get more interesting.

KronoRed
04-09-2006, 11:22 PM
I am sure Wayne has decided who he would like to try and build around. You have to build around somebody, otherwise you become like the Royals and Expos.
Hey..the 2nd team has its bills paid by the league now ;)

WVRed
04-09-2006, 11:31 PM
I'm not buying that for a minute.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but it's a simple fact that most other fans (not just Reds fans) hype up their own players to lofty standards. If you want proof, check out the Willy Mo trade thread.

We are never going to get a satisfying trade for Kearns until he shows that he can produce. Willy Mo did, and he was dealt at probably his highest value.

pedro
04-09-2006, 11:53 PM
I'd love to be proven wrong, but it's a simple fact that most other fans (not just Reds fans) hype up their own players to lofty standards. If you want proof, check out the Willy Mo trade thread.

We are never going to get a satisfying trade for Kearns until he shows that he can produce. Willy Mo did, and he was dealt at probably his highest value.

I'm just basing it on their career stats.

Look at each player per 162 games played and tell me who you think is more valuable.


WMP


YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1.88 162 444 58 110 18 1 27 72 29 155 5 3 .248 .303 .478 .781


Kearns


easonal Averages (per 162 games played)
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2.29 162 565 86 151 33 3 24 94 75 146 6 3 .267 .360 .464 .824


add in the fact that Keanrs is a decent defensive player and I don't even think it's close.

WMR
04-10-2006, 12:04 AM
That's all true but I don't think we traded WMP anywhere close to what his value could be had he produced over an entire season... there's no guarantee that he'd do that, but I think trading Austin right now would be just as misguided--potential risk v. reward--as trading WMP was.

jnwohio
04-10-2006, 12:16 AM
The position/ direction stated by the new owership is different from the previous direction of simply "rebuilding the farm system" and by default (hoping to) having a contender in some number of years.

Castellini has said quite clearly he wants to be as competitive as possible while building a championship contending organization.

I think in part this means they don't trade a centerpiece player like Dunn or Lopez or probably even Griffey unless they figure the return makes the major league club immediately more competitive than before the deal. For that matter they probably are not going to trade a Kearns or LaRue or Encarnacion either unless the same holds true; but in their minds, it probably would take less of a return on one of those guys to make the club better.

For instance, a week does not a season make; but, given the job Valentin and Ross have done plus the fact that together they only make about a third of what LaRue makes, one would suspect LaRue could be on the block for a deal that would bring in a good reliever or a solid #3 starter. That's because either of these quantities are part of what it looks like it will take to make the Reds a legitimate WC contender this season.

Silverback
04-10-2006, 12:49 AM
Take it for what it is, but Ken Broo just said on channel 5 (five) sports show that he believes that Tony Womack will be packing his bags on Monday. Again, take with a grain of salt...

KronoRed
04-10-2006, 12:52 AM
I wish, but I doubt it, if they wanted to deal him or dump him why not do so before Deno got sent down?

savafan
04-10-2006, 12:54 AM
I'm not sure why Griffey doesn't play to the Reds needs. As my analysis of career power hitters thread showed, Griffey is still an offensive force when healthy. He's a special player, my favorite player of all time, and I'm glad he's on my favorite team. I dunno, maybe that makes me biased, but I want to see him end his career as a Red.

As for Griffey no longer being any good defensively in centerfield, really?

Griffey's career centerfield fielding stats


Year Team Put Outs Assists Errors Field Pct. League Fld. Pct.
1989 Sea 302 12 10 .969 .980
1990 Sea 330 8 7 .980 .981
1991 Sea 360 15 4 .989 .983
1992 Sea 359 8 1 .997 .983
1993 Sea 316 8 3 .991 .983
1994 Sea 225 12 4 .983 .982
1995 Sea 190 5 2 .990 .983
1996 Sea 374 10 4 .990 .990
1997 Sea 387 9 6 .985 .988
1998 Sea 407 11 5 .988 .987
1999 Sea 386 10 9 .978 .985
2000 Cin 374 10 5 .987 .987
2001 Cin 195 1 3 .985 .986
2002 Cin 94 4 3 .970 .988
2003 Cin 89 3 1 .989 .988
2004 Cin 173 4 1 .994 .987
2005 Cin 285 6 3 .990 .987

When healthy, Griffey doesn't look like he's lost his fielding ability to me.

Chip R
04-10-2006, 12:55 AM
Take it for what it is, but Ken Broo just said on channel 5 (five) sports show that he believes that Tony Womack will be packing his bags on Monday. Again, take with a grain of salt...

Everyone is going to be packing their bags on Monday... they are going on a road trip.

Now I do not particularly like Womack but based on his play so far this year he does not deserve to be released. Now if a trade can be worked out, that is OK. How do you justify keeping Phillips and not Womack?

pedro
04-10-2006, 12:56 AM
Savan, those stat don't account for range which is where the problem lies.

Look at the drop in Put Outs.

westofyou
04-10-2006, 12:57 AM
How do you justify keeping Phillips and not Womack?

Age... the horse and glue factory metaphor didn't appear out of thin air.

pedro
04-10-2006, 12:57 AM
How do you justify keeping Phillips and not Womack?


because phillips is a good defender and may actually have a future.

Silverback
04-10-2006, 01:02 AM
Everyone is going to be packing their bags on Monday... they are going on a road trip.

Now I do not particularly like Womack but based on his play so far this year he does not deserve to be released. Now if a trade can be worked out, that is OK. How do you justify keeping Phillips and not Womack?

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I want to clarify that it was a possible trade involving Womack that Ken Broo had heard rumors of. Sorry for the confusion. I should have also noted that Tom Browning was a guest on the show, and he thinks Womack will stay. Again, take this 'info' with a grain of salt.

TeamBoone
04-10-2006, 01:09 AM
After reading page four of this thread I have learned that:

1) Adam Dunn sucks and needs to be traded

2) The best hitting SS in the NL is overrated and should be traded because the Reds went out and acquired a backup infielder.

Reds fans. Gotta love them. If your not a big loveable nice guy(Casey) or an old vet who plays the game the right way then the city of Cincinnati doesn't care much for you.

Hey, I live in Cincinnati and LOVE Dunn and adore Lopez! :p:

But hey, I hear what you're saying.

Chip R
04-10-2006, 01:11 AM
Great, I have the Erts Brothers ganging up on me now. ;)

I do not like Womacks game any better than you guys. I am not crazy about Phillips. I think he might be DLo with a better glove and a worse stick and the same attitude. From the sound of it he may be Pokey Reese 2.0. All I am saying is that the Reds are giving mixed signals to these players. We want to win now but we want someone to help in the future who may only get 3 ABs a week. It is like WMP in 2003. I would not have signed Womack in the first place. I would have thought long and hard about bringing him north. But if I am running the show, I cannot tell Womack I am cutting him in favor of Brandon Phillips. Now there may come a time down the road where Womack is playing like DLo did last year. Then I tell him to get on with his lifes work.

Gallen5862
04-10-2006, 01:14 AM
http://daytondaily.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=Phillips+picks+a+number%2C+gets+cozy&expire=&urlID=17856091&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.daytondailynews.com%2Fsports% 2Fcontent%2Fsports%2Freds%2Fdaily%2F0410redsnotesw eb.html&partnerID=530
What's up, Wayne?

With the jam-up in the infield that includes four second basemen and a roster that soon will include three catchers, it figures general manager Wayne Krivsky is hot on the trail of trade.

"Not really, nothing much going on," he said. "We're trying to do something with Matt Kata since we've designated him for assignment. We'd like to do something good for him in a trade that is almost something good for us."

Yes, Kata was a second baseman, too.

Gallen5862
04-10-2006, 01:15 AM
It looks like Kata will either be traded seperately or maybe as part of a multi player deal. If we can at least get Kata traded for something decent that would help the situation some.

Cyclone792
04-10-2006, 01:21 AM
Griffey UZR per 162 games:

1989 ... +5
1990 ... -4
1991 ... -3
1992 ... -7
1993 ... -2
1994 ... +7
1995 ... +13
1996 ... +36
1997 ... +16
1998 ... +10
1999 ... -19
2000 ... +9
2001 ... -14
2002 ... -9
2003 ... -15

MGL quit publishing UZR numbers a few years ago, and I do not have Griffey's 2004 or 2005 figures, though they have got to be in the same mold as his 2001-2003 numbers. Here's an interesting tidbit relating to Griffey's early 1990s numbers and the dramatic spike up in 1994 and 1995. David Pinto, author of Probabilistic Model of Range, sent the following email to a Yankees blogger ...

http://www.blissfulknowledge.com/archives/000684.html


In the 1990's, I wrote a piece in one of the STATS Baseball Scoreboards about Griffey's defense in center. He always ranked low in our zone ratings. So I did a really detailed study of Griffey's zone ratings, and the main thing I learned from it was that (this from memory, I should really dig out the article) Griffey was basically letting his left and right fielders make a lot of plays that other centerfielders normally make. Griffey was being lazy, and not calling for every ball he could get (which is a CF's job, after all). Griffey's zone ratings started going up after that.

I like to speculate that we in the sabermetric community have an effect on the game. It takes a long time, but every once in a while I see something that says to me, "they're listening to us." I wonder if someone talked to Griffey and told him to start going after more balls?

It is possible that the above could explain Griffey's unimpressive UZR figures early in his career, but it's also possible there could be some other explanation. As can be seen by Griffey's UZR numbers though, his defense started taking a big hit in 1999-2001, and he hasn't been an above average center fielder defensively since 2000.

M2
04-10-2006, 01:42 AM
In addition to the numbers Cyclone posted, Jr.'s RF dropped below the other guys the Reds have played in CF starting in 2001 (and due to his injuries, plenty of others have taken turns out there) and has stayed at the bottom of the pile since then. There's no pretty way to say this, but everyone the Reds have trotted out in CF since 2001 has been able to field circles around Jr.

KronoRed
04-10-2006, 05:20 AM
because phillips is a good defender and may actually have a future.
Play for the future? no way! ;)

KronoRed
04-10-2006, 05:21 AM
There's no pretty way to say this, but everyone the Reds have trotted out in CF since 2001 has been able to field circles around Jr.
Sadly :(

JR doesn't make the obvious errors that scream "BAD D" drops, mis plays, ext. but the problem is he doesn't get to the stuff he should be getting to.

Newman4
04-10-2006, 09:17 AM
The bottom line is keep Dunn and Felipe and build your team around both of them.

Ok, all of you that are constantly tapping the back of the hand against your chest and trying to lick your ear at the same time, nod your head front to back because this man is correct. :beerme:

paulrichjr
04-10-2006, 10:53 AM
Felipe isn't a free agent for another 2 years. If we are struggling with Boras around the trade deadline next year, then things could get more interesting.

Is this true? I figured he had at least 3 years before free agency since last year was his first "full year' in the majors.

M2
04-10-2006, 11:18 AM
Felipe isn't a free agent until after the 2008 season, so the Reds do have him for this season, plus two more.

Though if he doesn't sign a LTC before the 2008 season I don't expect him to finish that campaign with the Reds.

KearnsyEars
04-10-2006, 11:47 AM
how about dunn? Anyone think he'll sign an extension to his current contract in the next two years?

Red Leader
04-10-2006, 12:04 PM
how about dunn? Anyone think he'll sign an extension to his current contract in the next two years?

Not this year, but depending on moves made before next season, I could see the Reds signing him to an additional 2 yrs, or something like that.

KearnsyEars
04-10-2006, 12:08 PM
That would be suh weet

Roy Tucker
04-10-2006, 12:22 PM
My completely unsupported opinion is that there is nothing brewing.

Krivsky is just trying to gather as much possible talent whenever he can without any consideration about the current roster mix.

registerthis
04-10-2006, 12:31 PM
without any consideration about the current roster mix.

Ain't that the truth. The Reds current roster makeup is like a seven course meal where they bring out the bread basket four times, but skip the main course and dessert.

steig
04-10-2006, 01:15 PM
Sadly :(

JR doesn't make the obvious errors that scream "BAD D" drops, mis plays, ext. but the problem is he doesn't get to the stuff he should be getting to.


Griffey's range is the reason i believe he should be moved to first base and then play freel or kearns in center. past reports have talked about how Griffey takes infield sometimes for extra glove work and how he has some of the best hands on the team. I would think that defensively he would be our best option at 1st.

deltachi8
04-10-2006, 01:18 PM
My completely unsupported opinion is that there is nothing brewing.

Krivsky is just trying to gather as much possible talent whenever he can without any consideration about the current roster mix.

I agree - I think WK saw a chance to grab some talent cheap and did so.

After listening to Marty say that the Pirates would have rather faced Dunn than Aurillia Saturday with the sacks loaded because Dunn is King of the Strikeouts, well, Marty's opinion of something brewing lost some merit.

BRM
04-10-2006, 01:21 PM
After listening to Marty say that the Pirates would have rather faced Dunn than Aurillia Saturday with the sacks loaded because Dunn is King of the Strikeouts, well, Marty's opinion of something brewing lost some merit.

Mary also thought that besides Junior, Aurilia had the best season last year on the Reds. He seems to have a VERY high opinion of Rich.

cincy09
04-10-2006, 01:25 PM
Maybe they golf together?

registerthis
04-10-2006, 01:30 PM
After listening to Marty say that the Pirates would have rather faced Dunn than Aurillia Saturday with the sacks loaded because Dunn is King of the Strikeouts, well, Marty's opinion of something brewing lost some merit.

With Dunn, it is feast or famine. I can see an instance where, in a close game, a team would rather take their chances that Dunn will K rather than risk having a high average hitter sneak one through the IF. Aurillia, however, is not that high average hitter...I can virtually guarantee you that the Pirates would rather see RA at the dish than Dunner.

Roy Tucker
04-10-2006, 01:45 PM
Adam Dunn, newly crowned King of the Sacrifice Fly.

:cool:

BRM
04-10-2006, 01:48 PM
Adam Dunn, newly crowned King of the Sacrifice Fly.

:cool:

He's already half way to his career high.

cincy09
04-10-2006, 01:50 PM
Per Rotoworld:

The temptation to put Francisco Liriano in the starting rotation is already getting to manager Ron Gardenhire.
"He's like [Johan] Santana was, but he's ahead of Santana," Gardenhire said, "He has better pitches right now than Santana did at that age. Eventually, sure, you don't want to leave that out there in the bullpen. You want to use that. We'll see how it goes along." Apr. 10 - 10:00 am et

Seems like Baker could be moved to the bullpen soon, any chance we could swoop in and make a deal?

traderumor
04-10-2006, 02:06 PM
I've seen Scott Baker's name thrown around here for a couple of years and finally got to watch him pitch in ST against the Reds. What I saw was another soft tosser with a couple of mediocre offspeed pitches, but then that was only one time.

Tell me why I should be excited about him as a prospect?

cincyinco
04-10-2006, 03:41 PM
This is from 2005 BA's top 10 prospects:

10. SCOTT BAKER, rhp Age: 23 B-T: R-R Ht: 6-4 Wt: 215
Drafted: Oklahoma State, 2003 (2nd round) Signed by: Gregg Miller


Background: Baker reached Triple-A 13 months after signing. In his first full season, he started the Hall of Fame game for the Twins, who named him their minor league pitcher of the year. He continued to build on his success with a strong Arizona Fall League performance.

Strengths: Baker pitches at 91-93 mph with sink and occasionally reaches 95. He has plus fastball command, an advanced changeup and a smooth delivery. He also throws a quick-breaking slider and a knuckle-curve. He has an outstanding work ethic and is one of the most focused, intense prospects in the system.

Weaknesses: Though he’s polished, Baker doesn’t have a true out pitch and already is close to his ceiling. He projects as a No. 3 or 4 starter. He struggled in Triple-A, so he needs to prove he can maintain his stuff over a full season and get more advanced hitters out.

The Future: Baker could get a chance to make Minnesota’s rotation in spring training. He may need a few more starts in Triple-A before he’s ready.

KearnsyEars
04-10-2006, 05:06 PM
I saw Baker pitch saturday against the Tribe. I think he is going to be good, his offspead stuff is nice. 23 is very young for a P

edabbs44
04-10-2006, 06:45 PM
I've seen Scott Baker's name thrown around here for a couple of years and finally got to watch him pitch in ST against the Reds. What I saw was another soft tosser with a couple of mediocre offspeed pitches, but then that was only one time.

Tell me why I should be excited about him as a prospect?


Because he's better than what we have. And he's young.

PTBNL
04-10-2006, 08:46 PM
Even with their outfield logjam apparently settled, the Reds are still shopping Austin Kearns to see if he can bring back a decent starting pitcher in a trade.
New Jersey Ledger Link (http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/graziano/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/114456426318820.xml&coll=1&thispage=3)

VI_RedsFan
04-10-2006, 08:57 PM
Even with their outfield logjam apparently settled, the Reds are still shopping Austin Kearns to see if he can bring back a decent starting pitcher in a trade.
New Jersey Ledger Link (http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/graziano/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/114456426318820.xml&coll=1&thispage=3)

I could definately see a Kearns to Minny deal for a package that includes Scott Baker happen. Maybe one of the catchers and middle infielders are involved as well.

Spitball
04-10-2006, 09:15 PM
I could definately see a Kearns to Minny deal for a package that includes Scott Baker happen. Maybe one of the catchers and middle infielders are involved as well.

I think this makes sense, also. The Twins have a wealth of young pitching in their system and Liriano waiting to take Baker's spot in the rotation. They also have Juan Castro at short and issues in the outfield. Throw in Krivsky's connection, too many middle infielders, and disenchantment with Kearns and...well, where there is smoke...maybe a trade.

VI_RedsFan
04-10-2006, 09:25 PM
I think this makes sense, also. The Twins have a wealth of young pitching in their system and Liriano waiting to take Baker's spot in the rotation. They also have Juan Castro at short and issues in the outfield. Throw in Krivsky's connection, too many middle infielders, and disenchantment with Kearns and...well, where there is smoke...maybe a trade.

How about this trade idea then? (I know everyone is sick of my trade ideas but lets focus here):

Kearns, Aurilia, Valentin, White for Baker, Rincon/Guerrier, Bonser

M2
04-10-2006, 09:37 PM
I'd trust Krivsky to take his pick of Twins prospects, but Baker and Bonser would not be on my list.

Falls City Beer
04-10-2006, 09:51 PM
I'm not sold completely on a guy like Baker, but his minor league numbers resemble much Aaron Harang's.

KoryMac5
04-10-2006, 10:10 PM
Well heck we had Bong why not Boof.

KronoRed
04-10-2006, 10:13 PM
Well heck we had Bong why not Boof.
Name isn't as funny..we'd need a Wang

SteelSD
04-10-2006, 10:25 PM
Name isn't as funny..we'd need a Wang

Bongitdabong da Chien-Ming Wang Harangatang
Freel's said he's goofy so up jump the Boofy!

My name is STEEEEEEL...Rock!

redsfan30
04-10-2006, 10:35 PM
Bongitdabong da Chien-Ming Wang Harangatang
Freel's said he's goofy so up jump the Boofy!

My name is STEEEEEEL...Rock!
Quite possibly the most insightful post I've ever read on these boards.

:D

edabbs44
04-10-2006, 10:35 PM
How about this trade idea then? (I know everyone is sick of my trade ideas but lets focus here):

Kearns, Aurilia, Valentin, White for Baker, Rincon/Guerrier, Bonser

I think that is way too much. Minny doesn't need a catcher anyway and if they got a catcher it would be someone who can hit lefties (not Valentin) to spell Mauer. Aurilia would be perfect b/c he could play for Morneau against lefties.
And since when did we get so picky about pitching prospects? Baker would be our 2nd or 3rd best pitching prospect and would be a welcome addition. HE'S ONLY 23! Do we expect him to be blowing teams away right now? Many SPs that age aren't even in the majors.

VI_RedsFan
04-10-2006, 11:14 PM
I think that is way too much. Minny doesn't need a catcher anyway and if they got a catcher it would be someone who can hit lefties (not Valentin) to spell Mauer. Aurilia would be perfect b/c he could play for Morneau against lefties.
And since when did we get so picky about pitching prospects? Baker would be our 2nd or 3rd best pitching prospect and would be a welcome addition. HE'S ONLY 23! Do we expect him to be blowing teams away right now? Many SPs that age aren't even in the majors.

OK then, take out Valentin and would you do the deal?

edabbs44
04-10-2006, 11:23 PM
OK then, take out Valentin and would you do the deal?

The only thing that worries me about that deal it, as of right now, it appears that Kearns might have finally put it all together. I like the prospects of Baker, but I don't know if Rincon would be available since they lost some of their bridge to Nathan when Romero went to Anaheim. I wonder if Aurilia and someone else small would get it done for Baker alone, since Minny is dying for Liriano to get into the rotation and their offense is dying right now especially in the IF. Then we can try and trade LaRue for some relief help.

cincy09
04-10-2006, 11:27 PM
After watching the Twins at the plate over the weekend, I would think they are shopping for some offensive help. They could find themselves looking way up to the White sox, Tigers, and Indians by the end of the month. They have plenty of pitching depth and could afford to make a deal.

VI_RedsFan
04-10-2006, 11:31 PM
The only thing that worries me about that deal it, as of right now, it appears that Kearns might have finally put it all together. I like the prospects of Baker, but I don't know if Rincon would be available since they lost some of their bridge to Nathan when Romero went to Anaheim. I wonder if Aurilia and someone else small would get it done for Baker alone, since Minny is dying for Liriano to get into the rotation and their offense is dying right now especially in the IF. Then we can try and trade LaRue for some relief help.

I agree. Kearns does look good lately and I would hate to see him go. So, if I were Wayne, I'd offer Rich for Baker straight up. Maybe even throw in a prospect. Minny is wealthy of young arms anyway, so Baker's loss wouldn't be that big, especially with Liriano waiting to get into the rotation. And the Twins could really use some offense and Rich could supply them with that.

And as for getting relief help, the Mets could help us with that. They've got guys like Heilman, Bradford, and Julio in the pen that could help us. If I were Wayne, I'd see what it would take to get Heilman and one of Bradford/Julio.

edabbs44
04-10-2006, 11:40 PM
I agree. Kearns does look good lately and I would hate to see him go. So, if I were Wayne, I'd offer Rich for Baker straight up. Maybe even throw in a prospect. Minny is wealthy of young arms anyway, so Baker's loss wouldn't be that big, especially with Liriano waiting to get into the rotation. And the Twins could really use some offense and Rich could supply them with that.

And as for getting relief help, the Mets could help us with that. They've got guys like Heilman, Bradford, and Julio in the pen that could help us. If I were Wayne, I'd see what it would take to get Heilman and one of Bradford/Julio.


Looks like we're all in agreement and I like that Mets thought. Hopefully Krivsky is a member of this site.

cincy09
04-10-2006, 11:53 PM
I'd be very surprized if Aurillia would be enough to pry Baker, but it doesnt hurt to dream. The twins may be as deperate for offense as we are for pitching

edabbs44
04-11-2006, 12:09 AM
I'd be very surprized if Aurillia would be enough to pry Baker, but it doesnt hurt to dream. The twins may be as deperate for offense as we are for pitching

I think Aurilia and another player (minor leaguer with a little upside) might be enough. A few tidbits about their offense:

Juan Castro started at SS yesterday...yes, that Juan Castro.
Tony Batista started at 3b yesterday...yes, that Tony Batista.
Rondell White is their DH...yes, that Rondell White.

Their starting lineup has 3 people hitting over .250 and 5 people hitting .208 or below. One of those people hitting over .250 is Castro and you know that won't last long.

cincy09
04-11-2006, 12:12 AM
One of those people hitting over .250 is Castro and you know that won't last long.

But he sure can pick it :D

SteelSD
04-11-2006, 12:53 AM
I think Aurilia and another player (minor leaguer with a little upside) might be enough. A few tidbits about their offense:

Juan Castro started at SS yesterday...yes, that Juan Castro.
Tony Batista started at 3b yesterday...yes, that Tony Batista.
Rondell White is their DH...yes, that Rondell White.

Their starting lineup has 3 people hitting over .250 and 5 people hitting .208 or below. One of those people hitting over .250 is Castro and you know that won't last long.

The Twins could have had Aurilia for a song and a low first round pick this offseason. Baker, who I'm ok with but not thrilled, is worth far more than that as of the right now. Any Scott Baker deal would start far higher than Rich Aurilia, who's little more than a throw-in at this point. And frankly, if the Twins wanted a defensively challenged 2nd or 3rd sacker capable of putting up league-average numbers, they've already got one on their roster (Michael Cuddyer) at exactly the same price who's about 7 years younger.

Replace Batista with Cuddyer and you get the same thing as replacing Bautista with Aurilia. I don't see any value or need upside for Aurilia to entice the Twins to want him in a package for marketable young pitching.

Topcat
04-11-2006, 01:42 AM
The Twins could have had Aurilia for a song and a low first round pick this offseason. Baker, who I'm ok with but not thrilled, is worth far more than that as of the right now. Any Scott Baker deal would start far higher than Rich Aurilia, who's little more than a throw-in at this point. And frankly, if the Twins wanted a defensively challenged 2nd or 3rd sacker capable of putting up league-average numbers, they've already got one on their roster (Michael Cuddyer) at exactly the same price who's about 7 years younger.

Replace Batista with Cuddyer and you get the same thing as replacing Bautista with Aurilia. I don't see any value or need upside for Aurilia to entice the Twins to want him in a package for marketable young pitching.

You nailed that one steels. baker will not be a Red unless kearns is going the other way. Baker can get far better offensive players for the twins than Aurillia.

edabbs44
04-11-2006, 09:31 AM
You nailed that one steels. baker will not be a Red unless kearns is going the other way. Baker can get far better offensive players for the twins than Aurillia.

I agree that Aurilia might not be enough, but don't discount his worth. There aren't many ML players that can play all infield positions, who can still produce at the plate and that are readily available (hopefully) in a trade. I think RA and another player might do the trick.

PS: AJ Pierzynski got both Nathan and Liriano for Minny.

Strikes Out Looking
04-11-2006, 09:39 AM
I believe the reasons the Twins (or no one else) picked up Aurilia over the offseason was because they would have had to give up a draft pick to get him. Now that the season has started and some teams see they need offense it may be easier to sell him for cash/minor leaguer (even though I don't think the Twins will give the Reds Baker).

Whatever happens, needs to happen soon because 3 catchers and 4 second baseman is a strange combination to go through the season with.

MattyHo4Life
04-11-2006, 09:58 AM
Adam Dunn should only be dealt for two players in major league baseball: Albert Pujols or Rich Harden.

There is no player in MLB that is worth an even up trade for Pujols.

WVRed
04-11-2006, 10:14 AM
There is no player in MLB that is worth an even up trade for Pujols.

Agreed, and Adam Dunn is not one of them.

edabbs44
04-11-2006, 10:16 AM
There is no player in MLB that is worth an even up trade for Pujols.

I think what he meant is that Dunn shouldn't be traded unless it's a ridiculous offer in Cincy's favor.

KearnsyEars
04-11-2006, 11:05 AM
I think what he meant is that Dunn shouldn't be traded unless it's a ridiculous offer in Cincy's favor.

agreed

Roy Tucker
04-11-2006, 11:08 AM
There is no player in MLB that is worth an even up trade for Pujols.


I agree.

And I thought StL was foolish for sitting Fernando Tatis for this Pujols guy.

Shows you how much I know. I also favored Kurt Stilwell over this Larkin kid.

:moron:

SteelSD
04-11-2006, 11:22 AM
I agree that Aurilia might not be enough, but don't discount his worth.

It would be nearly impossible to discount Aurilia's market value because there really isn't any. It's why he's wearing a Reds uniform.


There aren't many ML players that can play all infield positions, who can still produce at the plate and that are readily available (hopefully) in a trade.

And Aurilia isn't one of them. The guy can stand at all four IF positions, but can't field the SS position and is a defensively deficient option at 2B or 3B. Nothing wrong with having an offensively average aging backup infielder, but teams aren't going to give you their top prospects for them. I'm all for wanting Krivsky to go out and find the bigger fool who'll give up real value for Rich Aurilia, but at some point we need to be reasonable about how dumb the bigger fool actually could be. If the Reds were able to get an A-Ball SP with potential or a AA RP who projects, I'd be doing cartwheels. But that's stretching the absolute peak of Aurilia's value (and then some) to the most desperate of GM's.


I think RA and another player might do the trick.

Any package involving Aurilia would have everything to do with the other player and little-to-nothing to do with Rich Aurilia.


PS: AJ Pierzynski got both Nathan and Liriano for Minny.

Which has nothing to do with Rich Aurilia. The Pierzynski deal was a great matchup- smart identification of talent by Terry Ryan combined with a team (SF) desperately needing a starting Catcher (age 26- coming off his best offensive season) and who doesn't highly value its picks or prospects.

Now point the microscope at Minnesota. The Twins hold onto their prospects with a death grip and already have a younger player (Cuddyer) who can do everything Aurilia can do (and more) at the same price.

Ain't gonna happen.

PuffyPig
04-11-2006, 11:23 AM
I agree.

And I thought StL was foolish for sitting Fernando Tatis for this Pujols guy.

Shows you how much I know. I also favored Kurt Stilwell over this Larkin kid.

:moron:

Especially since Tatis was no longer on the team at that time.

TRF
04-11-2006, 11:23 AM
Replace Batista with Cuddyer and you get the same thing as replacing Bautista with Aurilia. I don't see any value or need upside for Aurilia to entice the Twins to want him in a package for marketable young pitching.

Except for a few things, I agree.

The Twins wanted Castro at SS.
The Twins wanted Bautista at 3B.

Teams that look for and sign this kind of production will also trade for the Rich Aurilia's of the world. So if Aurilia is an upgrade over Bautista, forget for the moment they already have Cuddyer, that isn't the Reds problem, you focus on how RA is an upgrade, and can "play all four infield positions." He's versatile and scrappy. He knows how to win, and he's got veteran presence. All that crap, cuz it seems that is exactly what the twins want, not necessatily need, but definitely what they want.

Redus
04-11-2006, 11:31 AM
If Aurilia could get Boof Bonser I'd be surprised.

ochre
04-11-2006, 11:35 AM
If Aurilia could get Boof Bonser I'd be surprised.
Just imagine how Boof would feel.

edabbs44
04-11-2006, 11:38 AM
It would be nearly impossible to discount Aurilia's market value because there really isn't any. It's why he's wearing a Reds uniform.



And Aurilia isn't one of them. The guy can stand at all four IF positions, but can't field the SS position and is a defensively deficient option at 2B or 3B. Nothing wrong with having an offensively average aging backup infielder, but teams aren't going to give you their top prospects for them. I'm all for wanting Krivsky to go out and find the bigger fool who'll give up real value for Rich Aurilia, but at some point we need to be reasonable about how dumb the bigger fool actually could be. If the Reds were able to get an A-Ball SP with potential or a AA RP who projects, I'd be doing cartwheels. But that's stretching the absolute peak of Aurilia's value (and then some) to the most desperate of GM's.



Any package involving Aurilia would have everything to do with the other player and little-to-nothing to do with Rich Aurilia.



Which has nothing to do with Rich Aurilia. The Pierzynski deal was a great matchup- smart identification of talent by Terry Ryan combined with a team (SF) desperately needing a starting Catcher (age 26- coming off his best offensive season) and who doesn't highly value its picks or prospects.

Now point the microscope at Minnesota. The Twins hold onto their prospects with a death grip and already have a younger player (Cuddyer) who can do everything Aurilia can do (and more) at the same price.

Ain't gonna happen.



The difference here is Minnesota already has the pieces for a playoff run, but if they think Castro/Bautista/Cuddyer is going to cut it, then they are out of luck. My argument is, RIGHT NOW, what teams have veteran versatile infielders available? No one is looking to deal right now since most teams are "in the race" and Aurilia could cost more in July, depending on the market. Aurilia isn't a bum, I bet he would go .275-20-85 with a full-time job. How do you project Castro and Batista? Also, Baker was the Twins 10th prospect last year. He didn't qualify this year and they have 5 other pitchers in their 2006 Top 10. So I would argue he is expendable. I'd say LaRue/Aurilia and some $$$ (for LaRue's ridiculous salary) for Baker and a decent minor leaguer. LaRue can give them some insurance for Mauer since he gets injured and LaRue can also catch/DH vs lefties.

Also, Texas got Rob Tejeda and another player for Dellucci when they didn't really need another OF. Just an example of another playoff caliber team dealing from a strength (young pitching, with Myers, Hamels, and Floyd Tejeda could be lost with not much backlash) to help out their current ML team and help them win now.

Joseph
04-11-2006, 11:41 AM
I agree.

And I thought StL was foolish for sitting Fernando Tatis for this Pujols guy.

Shows you how much I know. I also favored Kurt Stilwell over this Larkin kid.

:moron:

Sounds like you need to become an anti-scout. Tell the team to play the opposite of whomever you like. :)

westofyou
04-11-2006, 11:41 AM
My argument is, RIGHT NOW, what teams have veteran versatile infielders available? The problem is you are projecting Aurilia with GAB numbers in the Metrodome, plus you think that he can play MI on turf no less, apparently even the Reds don't really think that he can play a competant MI anymore.

Redus
04-11-2006, 11:41 AM
Just imagine how Boof would feel.

Although the intial vomitosis of being traded for Aurilia would kick in ......the thought of climbing the Reds pitching ladder instead of Minnys would bring glee and optimism to the Boofster:thumbup:

KearnsyEars
04-11-2006, 11:44 AM
All I know is like Lantz Mccal. said on his show yesterday around 5:30, adam dunn is going nowhere, so fans should stop discussing it/requesting it/ etc. You don't trade players like adam dunn. You build around players like Adam Dunn, he is a cornerstone.

Ever heard the old saying "No one wants to trade the next Babe Ruth?" Well literally, no GM wants to be that guy. I know you guys like Krivsky because he has the guile to pull the trigger, but I don't think he wants to be the man who traded a 600-700 HR player (WhO is tough and plays every day) for a pitcher that might have a few prime years left in him that pitches every 5th day or a few prospects that are 50/50 "cant miss guys"

Dunn is going to be a career red as long as he'll always sign here and take what we offer him (Fair market value, not OVERPAYED). And he should be. I wouldn't trade Adam Dunn for an ace ever just like the Cardinals wouldn't deal Pujols for ANYONE or ANYTHING in baseball. There isn't one pitcher in baseball that they'd trade AP for. The same could probably be said here in Cincinnati about Adam Dunn. We might as well not even mention him anymore. He has gained untouchable status again.

PuffyPig
04-11-2006, 11:47 AM
There is no player in MLB that is worth an even up trade for Pujols.

You may be right, but I would consider the following the most likely candidates to consider (mostly because their salaries are so much lower, at this time, which would allow the savings to be spent on additional players):

Hernandez
Harden
Cabrerra

That's about it.

But it's one of those trades that, likely, neither team makes. Each of those players play on small market teams (except maybe Hernandez), so won't make the trade for economic reasons.

The real extra value that Pujols brings is that he's signed longterm for a non-outrageous amount. Plus he's so consistent, I doubt he will ever really slump.

There may be players with similiar trade value, but it's likely a trade would never occur as long as Pujols continues producing.

Roy Tucker
04-11-2006, 11:54 AM
Especially since Tatis was no longer on the team at that time.


I'm sorry. I'm an imperfect carbon-based unit and prone to memory parity errors. Let me amend.

I thought StL made a mistake trading off Tatis and the risk with going with the unproven Pujols at 3B. Tatis seemed an up-and-comer at 3B which are hard to come by.

Better?

Jpup
04-11-2006, 12:00 PM
all I can say is, if the Reds trade Austin Kearns, they are making a mistake. He's in great shape, seams happy, and looks to be on his way to his best year ever. He's raking and he's going to get better everyday. He is also the only good defensive outfielder on the Reds.

Keep Dunn, Lopez, and Kearns unless you are overwhelmed, trade the rest. I think that LaRue is on the way out for some young arm. I would trade Jr. asap, I love the guy, but he can't play defense anymore. It would do him well to go to the AL and play DH.

There is no way that LaRue, Valentin, Ross, Phillips, Womack, and Freel are still on the roster when LaRue is activated. One of them is on the way out soon, I think that LaRue will be traded out west to either LA or Colorado.

Ryan Freel has to be in the lineup everyday, he's just too good to sit. I know his trade value isn't that high and I think he is worth more to the Reds than he would be to some other teams. He is also 30 years old.

KearnsyEars
04-11-2006, 12:07 PM
all I can say is, if the Reds trade Austin Kearns, they are making a mistake. He's in great shape, seams happy, and looks to be on his way to his best year ever. He's raking and he's going to get better everyday. He is also the only good defensive outfielder on the Reds.

Keep Dunn, Lopez, and Kearns unless you are overwhelmed, trade the rest. I think that LaRue is on the way out for some young arm. I would trade Jr. asap, I love the guy, but he can't play defense anymore. It would do him well to go to the AL and play DH.

There is no way that LaRue, Valentin, Ross, Phillips, Womack, and Freel are still on the roster when LaRue is activated. One of them is on the way out soon, I think that LaRue will be traded out west to either LA or Colorado.

Ryan Freel has to be in the lineup everyday, he's just too good to sit. I know his trade value isn't that high and I think he is worth more to the Reds than he would be to some other teams. He is also 30 years old.

I love kearns, think he's looking good early. But I wouldn't say he is "raking" he's barely hitting .300 lol, one homerun.

TeamBoone
04-11-2006, 12:08 PM
I don't think he wants to be the man who traded a 600-700 HR player (WhO is tough and plays every day)

Ironically, I have read two articles this year calling Dunn injury prone. I just shook my head at the time... where do they get this stuff? Obviously, those two writers didn't do their homework as that statement isn't even close to being factual.

The truly sad part is people read this crap and believe it.

Jpup
04-11-2006, 12:10 PM
I love kearns, think he's looking good early. But I wouldn't say he is "raking" he's barely hitting .300 lol, one homerun.

believe it or not, I haven't even looked at his numbers, but he seems to be going very good.

here they are, as I said, he's raking:

.320/.346/.600/.946 4 2Bs 1 HR 25 ABs

I know it's early but he's hitting well to start the year. He also looks to be in the best shape of his career.

Red Leader
04-11-2006, 12:13 PM
I'm anxious to see what Krivsky will do with this roster.

Off the top of my head, I'd have to believe that Dunn, Lopez, Edwin, Harang, Claussen, Bailey, Wood, and Arroyo will be off limits, but I pretty much think everyone else is fair game, including Kearns, LaRue, Freel, all the bullpen arms, all of the other "prospects" in the minors. I know Krivsky wants to improve the overall defense of the team, and I'm curious to see how he's going to do it. FWIW, I think Junior's replacement will be the final piece of the puzzle, so I'm going to use the end of Griffey's contract, 2008 (I'm assuming they will buy out his 2009 option, or trade him during 2008) as my "finish line" as far as Krivsky's remaking the roster. Should be an exciting next 2 years.

Joseph
04-11-2006, 12:14 PM
Ironically, I have read two articles this year calling Dunn injury prone. I just shook my head at the time... where do they get this stuff? Obviously, those two writers didn't do their homework as that statement isn't even close to being factual.

The truly sad part is people read this crap and believe it.

Face it. We all grew up thinking the beat writers knew all there was to know and their words were gospel in relation to baseball, but the fact is many are just working stiffs who believe what they are told. Sure they all know the players a little better than we do on a personal level, but in the age of the internet and a more intelligent America in general, we know as much or more than the local writers do about the Reds.

Why? Because we all love baseball. It's just a job to them.

KearnsyEars
04-11-2006, 12:40 PM
except mccoy

pedro
04-11-2006, 12:47 PM
I agree that Aurilia might not be enough, but don't discount his worth. There aren't many ML players that can play all infield positions, who can still produce at the plate and that are readily available (hopefully) in a trade. I think RA and another player might do the trick.

PS: AJ Pierzynski got both Nathan and Liriano for Minny.

If Aurilia had so much worth then why didn't any team but the Reds offer him a contract when he was a free agent?

Caveat Emperor
04-11-2006, 01:13 PM
all I can say is, if the Reds trade Austin Kearns, they are making a mistake. He's in great shape, seams happy, and looks to be on his way to his best year ever. He's raking and he's going to get better everyday. He is also the only good defensive outfielder on the Reds.

47 RA in 6 games.

That's 7.833 runs-per-game that the Reds are allowing at this early point in the season. 7.833 runs-per-game against the Pittsburgh Pirates and the Chicago Cubs. Last year, for a full season, that number was 889 RA in 162 games -- 5.49 runs-per-game. The Reds are back off to flying start again this year.

The pitching simply has to get better: better starting pitching and better relief pitching. If moving Kearns makes the pitching better, it's a deal the Reds have to look at carefully.

edabbs44
04-11-2006, 01:57 PM
If Aurilia had so much worth then why didn't any team but the Reds offer him a contract when he was a free agent?

Because it would have cost them a draft pick.

pedro
04-11-2006, 02:01 PM
Because it would have cost them a draft pick.

why then would they trade a decent prospect now if they wouldn't risk a draft pick during the offseason?

westofyou
04-11-2006, 02:09 PM
why then would they trade a decent prospect now if they wouldn't risk a draft pick during the offseason?
Because it keeps the assumption that Aurilia could play SS for the Twins going in this thread.

BTW wasn't the Bret Boone experiment the same attempt to fix a hole that plugging Rich Aurilia in will attempt to fix (Middle Infield defense AND hitting)

That worked out well for them eh? By that account I'm fairly certain that the Twins are not chomping at the bit to get RA into the fold.

Blimpie
04-11-2006, 02:15 PM
I love kearns, think he's looking good early. But I wouldn't say he is "raking" he's barely hitting .300 lol, one homerun.Batting .320 is not exactly "barely" is it? I like the fact that he is hitting doubles...as in, half of his total hits are doubles.

edabbs44
04-11-2006, 02:22 PM
Because it keeps the assumption that Aurilia could play SS for the Twins going in this thread.

BTW wasn't the Bret Boone experiment the same attempt to fix a hole that plugging Rich Aurilia in will attempt to fix (Middle Infield defense AND hitting)

That worked out well for them eh? By that account I'm fairly certain that the Twins are not chomping at the bit to get RA into the fold.


How about 3b and 1b against lefties? When I said versatile, I didn't say he'd be the second coming of Ozzie Smith. But he wouldn't embarrass himself if/when Luis Castillo gets injured. I just don't think their IF will get it done, even with their pitching. If Tony Batista makes it at 3rd the whole season, shocked wouldn't be the word. And if they plan on going with Castillo and Castro up the middle for defensive purposes, then they better get someone better than Batista at 3rd.

pedro
04-11-2006, 02:28 PM
How about 3b and 1b against lefties? When I said versatile, I didn't say he'd be the second coming of Ozzie Smith. But he wouldn't embarrass himself if/when Luis Castillo gets injured. I just don't think their IF will get it done, even with their pitching. If Tony Batista makes it at 3rd the whole season, shocked wouldn't be the word. And if they plan on going with Castillo and Castro up the middle for defensive purposes, then they better get someone better than Batista at 3rd.

They already have Cuddyer to play at 3rd if Batista washes out.

westofyou
04-11-2006, 02:33 PM
How about 3b and 1b against lefties?

Do many small market organizations trade 23 year old pitchers who can start for plus 30 year olds guys that that *might* get 120 ab's vs LH's?

edabbs44
04-11-2006, 02:46 PM
Do many small market organizations trade 23 year old pitchers who can start for plus 30 year olds guys that that *might* get 120 ab's vs LH's?

Last post for me on this topic b/c I have work to do. What did Randy Winn pull down last year? How about Randa? When teams are playoff caliber and need one or 2 more pieces, they are more willing to give up something of worth if they think it will help them. There are people on this board saying Penny and Brazoban for LaRue. I want to trade LaRue and RA for Baker and a minor leaguer. Tell me, what is more ridiculous?

And people are acting like Cuddyer is the second coming. He's been given every opportunity to win a job in Minny and has failed. .263 is his career high. Last year he had 422 ABs and went .263-12-42. RA went .282-14-68 in 426 ABs. A little more productive. And I'm adding LaRue and a little $$. For a guy who might be going back to AAA or to the bullpen whenever they put Liriano in the rotation. So don't act like this is completely out of the realm. Baker was their 10th best prospect last year...maybe you are overrating him a little.

PS: Gametime in 30 minutes....let's go Reds! RA's gonna hit 3 HRs so that way Minny calls and offers Liriano straight up for him!

pedro
04-11-2006, 02:52 PM
Cuddyer isn't very good but neither is RA outside of GABP. It's pretty much a wash IMO. No reason to trade for RA. Just not going to happen IMO.

westofyou
04-11-2006, 02:54 PM
How about Randa?

Nothing like Scott Baker that's for sure, as for Winn... he just also got a giant contract from the same team that jettisoned the guy your pimping, looks like Brian Sabean didn't see them in the same light, I know I don't.

Randy Winn is a superior player at this juncture and the Giants gave up a no hit catcher for him and Jesse Foppert, who only interests me because we share the same birthday.

TRF
04-11-2006, 03:01 PM
Cuddyer isn't very good but neither is RA outside of GABP. It's pretty much a wash IMO. No reason to trade for RA. Just not going to happen IMO.

And the reason for signing Juan Castro was... what?

You guys are assigning a level of competence to an org. that signed Juan Castro AND Tony Bautista.

Think about that.

pedro
04-11-2006, 03:05 PM
And the reason for signing Juan Castro was... what?

You guys are assigning a level of competence to an org. that signed Juan Castro AND Tony Bautista.

Think about that.

Touche'

But still, Terry Ryan doesn't have a history of trading for flotsam & jetsom.

westofyou
04-11-2006, 03:05 PM
And the reason for signing Juan Castro was... what?

You guys are assigning a level of competence to an org. that signed Juan Castro AND Tony Bautista.

Think about that.

2001 2nd 85 77 .525 6
2002 1st 94 67 .584 +13.5 AL CENTRAL CHAMPIONS
2003 1st 90 72 .556 +4 AL CENTRAL CHAMPIONS
2004 1st 92 70 .568 +9 AL CENTRAL CHAMPIONS
2005 3rd 83 79 .512 16

TRF
04-11-2006, 03:08 PM
I just took a look at the offensive stats for this year's Minnesota Twins.

Offensive just about covers it. Only two regulars with an OPS above .680. 2, and one of them is Juan Castro.

Another week or two of this and they just might see RA and a minor league pitcher as an upgrade. This offense is the baseball equivelant of the La Brea Tar Pits.

TRF
04-11-2006, 03:10 PM
2001 2nd 85 77 .525 6
2002 1st 94 67 .584 +13.5 AL CENTRAL CHAMPIONS
2003 1st 90 72 .556 +4 AL CENTRAL CHAMPIONS
2004 1st 92 70 .568 +9 AL CENTRAL CHAMPIONS
2005 3rd 83 79 .512 16


Something happened between 2004 & 2005. I don't know what, but something. They could finish behind the Tigers with this offense.

BoCcc2832
04-11-2006, 03:18 PM
According to MLB Trade Rumors,

All sorts of emails about the Reds recently. Everyone thinks they're due for a trade, and I can't disagree. Unfortunately I've come up empty on any inside rumblings of a deal. But take a look at this depth chart! The team has three catchers and five middle infielders, but lacks a real first baseman and could use some relief help. Something's gotta give. The Jays could probably spare a corner type, and the Twins could have some use for a middle infielder who can hit. The Mets might not mind another second base option.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2006/04/unfounded_rumor.html

zombie-a-go-go
04-11-2006, 03:44 PM
700 (caveats inherent here) said they believe Kearns, a pitcher, and a second baseman will be gone before the end of next week for a starter and a reliever.

RedLegSuperStar
04-11-2006, 03:58 PM
700 (caveats inherent here) said they believe Kearns, a pitcher, and a second baseman will be gone before the end of next week for a starter and a reliever.


They are trying to trade Kata.. But Krivsky said that was about it in the DDN


What's up, Wayne?

With the jam-up in the infield that includes four second basemen and a roster that soon will include three catchers, it figures general manager Wayne Krivsky is hot on the trail of trade.

"Not really, nothing much going on," he said. "We're trying to do something with Matt Kata since we've designated him for assignment. We'd like to do something good for him in a trade that is almost something good for us."

Yes, Kata was a second baseman, too.