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View Full Version : With a move or two, we can contend



reds44
04-09-2006, 10:56 PM
This divison sucks. Period. The Cardinals have a taken 3 steps back this offseason, the Pirates suck, the Astros are ok at best, and the Cubs and Brewers are both decent. Our offense is great, and I honestly think our rotation will be decent (I thought that before the year, this week had nothing do with this). If we can find a way to get a decent bullpen, we will have a legit shot to contend in the NL Central.

I hope Krivs makes a move to get us some bullpen arms.
Who is with me!?
:beerme:

RedsMan3203
04-09-2006, 11:03 PM
The way I look at it is this.

Last year... We had a great Offense... Again this year... Even with Casey and Pena gone.. We are still a great Offense. We have no worries on that side of the plate.

But -- The biggest worry is really pitching.

Will Harrang and Classusen take another step or two foward. Was last year a fluke for Milton and he will turn around and get us 15 win this year?

Really, the roles have flopped. Last year our starters were so bad... (harrang and classuen excluded) It didnt matter... What happend... When it happend... Our starters were gone early.. and the pen came in and kept us around in the game...

This year so far.. Our starters have been good, and our pen has sucked. Maybe they aren't used to being in a tight game? Who knows.


If Harrang, Classuen, Milton, Arroyo, Williams = 70 wins (meaning, in all combied starts they win 70 games) Can we find another 15 wins else where?

Thats 14 wins for each person... Can they do it?

KronoRed
04-09-2006, 11:07 PM
We have few trading pieces, I don't want to start dealing them for bullpen help when the rotation still needs work, it's not just contending it's winning the whole thing and I have a hard time seeing our current starters leading us to a world series win.

cincy09
04-09-2006, 11:11 PM
Even with all the questions, it would sure be fun to look forward to baseball games past July, 31. I long for the days when the trade deadline means something besides salary dumping.

Falls City Beer
04-09-2006, 11:14 PM
It's tough to say exactly what would put this team into contention, but as long as pitching talent, real honest to god pitching talent, comes in return, I don't care if it's bullpen or starting rotation. And outside of Dunn, I don't care who it takes to acquire it. I won't be too angry if the Reds don't contend this year, but they sure as hell better be ready by next season.

NatiRedGals
04-09-2006, 11:21 PM
I argee we can contend bring on the bullpen members :) Our starters will carry themselves !!

WMR
04-09-2006, 11:24 PM
It's tough to say exactly what would put this team into contention, but as long as pitching talent, real honest to god pitching talent, comes in return, I don't care if it's bullpen or starting rotation. And outside of Dunn, I don't care who it takes to acquire it. I won't be too angry if the Reds don't contend this year, but they sure as hell better be ready by next season.

http://www.ballscasten.com/jokes/images/mission%20impossible.jpg

Talk about your quandaries...

Falls City Beer
04-09-2006, 11:25 PM
http://www.ballscasten.com/jokes/images/mission%20impossible.jpg

Talk about your quandries...

Quandaries? or quantities? ;)

WMR
04-09-2006, 11:27 PM
Well... you gotta be willing to sacrifice some of your most prized assets if you're serious about accomplishing your goals.

Falls City Beer
04-09-2006, 11:30 PM
True. Those babies look like they've been plucked from orbit.

WMR
04-09-2006, 11:31 PM
Adam and Dunn?

.OPS + .OBP?

lmao.

Reds Nd2
04-09-2006, 11:44 PM
I hope Krivs makes a move to get us some bullpen arms.
Who is with me!?
:beerme:

If Krivsky ignores this teams real problems trying to bolster the bullpen, he should be fired immediately.

Reds Nd2
04-09-2006, 11:50 PM
I won't be too angry if the Reds don't contend this year, but they sure as hell better be ready by next season.

They won't be. Maybe '08. Maybe.


True. Those babies look like they've been plucked from orbit.

I think one of those babies hit the earth and killed the dinasours.

M2
04-10-2006, 01:09 AM
I disagree with the premise of this thread. You'd better be capable of winning 95+ games if you expect to take the NL Central. With weak sisters at the back of the NL East and NL West, second-place clubs in those divisions will be able to rack up easy wins, which means the Wild Card won't be easy pickings this season either.

This is no time to try to slide by on the same gimmick that's failed the Reds time and again in recent years (maybe the pitching can be just a little bit bad and the offense can club its way to wins). The Reds have allowed 47 runs in six games. Despite the 4-2 record, that is not an auspicious start for a club that has been croaked by horrible pitching during this century. And the Pirates and Cubs are hardly near the top of the list for clubs most likely to put a hurt on your pitching staff.

Don't try to fix this wagon. It is not worth fixing. Rip it apart, keep a few of the choice parts and build a new wagon. With a move or two the Reds can once again delay the hard work that needs to be done to resurrect the franchise and fall farther into an increasingly deeper hole.

Topcat
04-10-2006, 03:32 AM
If Krivsky ignores this teams real problems trying to bolster the bullpen, he should be fired immediately.


Um over reaction by you ? 3 months on the job heck even year 1 and he should be able to clear this mess that fast ? Just for giggles tell us how that can be accomplished?

edabbs44
04-10-2006, 06:39 AM
This divison sucks. Period. The Cardinals have a taken 3 steps back this offseason, the Pirates suck, the Astros are ok at best, and the Cubs and Brewers are both decent. Our offense is great, and I honestly think our rotation will be decent (I thought that before the year, this week had nothing do with this). If we can find a way to get a decent bullpen, we will have a legit shot to contend in the NL Central.

I hope Krivs makes a move to get us some bullpen arms.
Who is with me!?
:beerme:


Agreed. Any trades being mde should be two-fold:

1) Able to help this year
2) Able to help in the future

Translation: No Kenny Rogers types.

I like where the rotation is headed with Harang, Arroyo and Claussen. Not on the Milton bandwagon just yet. We definitely need relief pitching first. I would really hate to see what Pujols would do to Rick White.

redsmetz
04-10-2006, 07:38 AM
Agreed. Any trades being mde should be two-fold:

1) Able to help this year
2) Able to help in the future

Translation: No Kenny Rogers types.

I like where the rotation is headed with Harang, Arroyo and Claussen. Not on the Milton bandwagon just yet. We definitely need relief pitching first. I would really hate to see what Pujols would do to Rick White.

At this point, all of our starters have had one good outing. Harang's last outing was better than it looked and was soiled by the relief corps stinking the joint up. If we can either get the relievers straightened out or bolster their ranks, I think we'll be in decent shape. Yesterday's game was certainly winnable. Of course, let's see how we do with the spunkier Cubs and with the Redbirds.

I like how this rotation is shaping up. It's no as shabby as some folks make it out to be. And an improved Milton only helps!

kbrake
04-10-2006, 07:47 AM
Couldnt agree with M2 more. This is the kind of thing that has killed this team. People just need look to next year and beyond. This teams pitching is still a very long ways away from seriously contending. I'm still not sold on Milton being any good this year and the bullpen everyone knows is flat out terrible. I dont want to see a single part for the future dealt to improve this year's bullpen.

Falls City Beer
04-10-2006, 08:06 AM
While there may not be a "quick fix," I am a firm believer in rapid turnarounds. That may sound synonymous, but I don't think it is. One is a patch job, the other is a speedy, decisive, high-risk set of moves to overhaul the personnel.

I think Krivsky's taking the latter approach, and I, for one, am glad. There is zero doubt in my mind that this team can be competitive by next season, with the right moves. And competitive WITH the long-term picture in mind all the while.

UK Reds Fan
04-10-2006, 08:22 AM
I say fix it and go for this year.

First, Wagner and Shackleford can help us next week if we just make the call to the pen and get rid of some current BP fodder.

Secondly, Paul Wilson may help us out with BP or moving Dave Williams to the pen.

Thirdly, are guys like Lizard, Germano, etc.. at AAA guys that can help us out of the pen if they are not quite good enough as starters?

Fourthly, we have some quality catchers and middle infielders we can peddle for what we can get. I just can't believe Larue or Valentin can't find us a really good BP arm.

Finally and most costly, as Griffey continues to establish himself as a top level offensive player and proves he can stay healthy, there has to be a market for Griff. Any pitching help we get back or 1B offensive production Griff could bring in a trade, could offset the offensive loss of Griff and vastly improved CF defense.

All in all, we have 5 options ranging from little help/or none to possibly greatly enhancing this team that won't severly damage the future of this club (Dunn, Harang, Lopez, EE, Clausen, Milton, Freel ) at the same time.

flyer85
04-10-2006, 08:39 AM
These team needs quality young arms, in the pen or rotation. Moving a Williams to the pen really solves nothing.

Right now we really have no idea if Krivsky is in win now and try to build for next year or if he is willing to punt this season. His next few moves should answer the question.

Kc61
04-10-2006, 09:43 AM
I think Arroyo and Williams are an upgrade over last year (Hudson, Ortiz) and Wilson is getting ready in case of injury or if somebody flames out. So the starting pitching should be better, particularly if Milton does better. I would still trade for a starter, but only somebody with front of the rotation potential.

The bullpen is another story. I like Coffey, Mercker and Weathers, but the other four guys are very shaky. I would prefer Shackelford to be with the club, but I think Wagner needs some AAA time. One or two bona fide relievers would really help the team.

If the Reds could trade a catcher and an infielder for a good reliever or two, it would really help, particularly somebody relatively young, not the over 35 set.

registerthis
04-10-2006, 09:51 AM
Looking at this bullpen make-up makes me long for the days of Scott Sullivan.

OldXOhio
04-10-2006, 10:28 AM
This divison sucks. Period. The Cardinals have a taken 3 steps back this offseason, the Pirates suck, the Astros are ok at best, and the Cubs and Brewers are both decent. Our offense is great, and I honestly think our rotation will be decent (I thought that before the year, this week had nothing do with this). If we can find a way to get a decent bullpen, we will have a legit shot to contend in the NL Central.

I hope Krivs makes a move to get us some bullpen arms.
Who is with me!?
:beerme:

I like your enthusiasm about the Reds chances, but you're selling the cards too short way too early. STL has implemented a winning system that will continue to successfully interchange spare parts around its core of veteran talent. They are still solid in all facets and should easily get to 90 wins. I'll reserve judgment about the rest of the division, esp the Cubs and Astros, although I do believe both will have 84+ wins. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Central ends up being one of the better divisions in baseball.

redsmetz
04-10-2006, 10:32 AM
Wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Central ends up being one of the better divisions in baseball.

I have been saying this would be possible for a couple of years (obviously not on this board). I think this division has the chance of being the top division in MLB.

Reds Nd2
04-10-2006, 10:40 AM
Um over reaction by you ? 3 months on the job heck even year 1 and he should be able to clear this mess that fast ? Just for giggles tell us how that can be accomplished?

Overeraction? No, not at all. I never said Krivsky should have the mess that is currently the Reds cleaned up in three months or even a year. But if he ignores the bigger problems on this team, namely defense and starting pitching, and begins trading away what few resources he has to fix the bullpen, he should be relieved of his duties quickly. Fixing the bullpen first isn't going to help this team contend in '06 and beyond.

princeton
04-10-2006, 10:49 AM
going in, I thought that they needed a closer, two starters, two middle gloves. And for people to stay healthy, develop, and/or not get old

They got a starter, a middle glove (if they play him), and can probably find another middle glove very easily.

but it's going to be tough to find that team that wants to give up a young Joe Nathan plus two arms for Jason LaRue.

UK Reds Fan
04-10-2006, 10:59 AM
I guess I don't get why the high tag for Larue that some think will wreck the Reds future.

If all we got for Larue was a Reitsma type BP guy and an additional Lefty specialist/or Single A prospect, isn't that a good get for what we need vs. what we have in surplus that doesn't wreck the future as well? Isn't the future really Dunn, Lopez, Freel, Ed E, Harang, Arroyo and Claussen with Kearns as a fringe guy?

Furthermore, I still see no reason we can't hand the ball to Wagner, Shackleford and convert guys like Gosling/Lizard to BP guys and let White, Burns, Hammond DFA? I think that is an improvement and potentially could be a sizeable improvement. Hopefully Mercker, Weathers and Coffey can put solid years in...Paul Wilson gives you a potential spot starter if one of the 5 current starters needs a 15 day DL stay....I just see no reason to stand pat with a good offensive team, possibly average pitching that just needs some help out of the pen to stay in wildcard race.

M2
04-10-2006, 11:04 AM
I have been saying this would be possible for a couple of years (obviously not on this board). I think this division has the chance of being the top division in MLB.

With the Nats and Marlins looking weak in the NL East (and I'm none too impressed by the Phillies either) I think the NL Central might be the strongest division in the NL. It could use another top flight team, but I think the bottom of the division is far tougher than the bottom of the East or West.

In general I think the top of the NL is a little thin and that probably will create a situation like what we saw in 1999 where the best teams run away from everyone else and the playoff chase is only there for a select few.

KearnsyEars
04-10-2006, 11:05 AM
It's tough to say exactly what would put this team into contention, but as long as pitching talent, real honest to god pitching talent, comes in return, I don't care if it's bullpen or starting rotation. And outside of Dunn, I don't care who it takes to acquire it. I won't be too angry if the Reds don't contend this year, but they sure as hell better be ready by next season.


I agree keep Dunn at all costs.

KearnsyEars
04-10-2006, 11:06 AM
Looking at this bullpen make-up makes me long for the days of Scott Sullivan.


What a guy. What a pitcher. Man was he solid. :eek:

westofyou
04-10-2006, 11:21 AM
After 6 games the 47 runs allowed is 2nd worse total in modern team history (52 in 1962) The total runs scored after 6 games is 4th (51 1976, 44 1922, 50 1904)

That's one leaky pitching staff.

M2
04-10-2006, 11:27 AM
After 6 games the 47 runs allowed is 2nd worse total in modern team history (52 in 1961) The total runs scored after 6 games is 4th (51 1976, 44 1922, 50 1904)

That's one leaky pitching staff.

On the bright side, the '61 staff rebounded with aplomb.

westofyou
04-10-2006, 11:28 AM
On the bright side, the '61 staff rebounded with aplomb.
Whoops typo... that's 1962

ochre
04-10-2006, 11:31 AM
Speaking of the '61 team. My dad is a big fan of this sequence of moves:


Traded Roy McMillan to the Milwaukee Braves. Received Joey Jay and Juan Pizarro.

Traded Juan Pizarro and Cal McLish to the Chicago White Sox. Received Gene Freese.

westofyou
04-10-2006, 11:34 AM
Speaking of the '61 team. My dad is a big fan of this sequence of moves:Yep, the new GM doesn't have the relationship ties with all the players and often it takes that to turn over a stagnant roster.

Freese was a great P/U, but broke his ankle the following year, I've also heard he was not the best teammate to have.

M2
04-10-2006, 11:34 AM
Whoops typo... that's 1962

Pretty good rebound that year too. Bob Purkey should have had himself a Cy Young that season.

IslandRed
04-10-2006, 11:45 AM
Right now we really have no idea if Krivsky is in win now and try to build for next year or if he is willing to punt this season. His next few moves should answer the question.

I think we'll see some fence-straddling. I'd be seriously surprised if Krivsky really believes we're a serious contender, and mildly surprised if Castellini does, but I also don't believe he bought the team not intending to try. So I think Krivsky will do what he can as long as it doesn't leave the 2007 Reds worse off, and we'll punt when it's fourth down but not before.

M2
04-10-2006, 11:54 AM
I think we'll see some fence-straddling. I'd be seriously surprised if Krivsky really believes we're a serious contender, and mildly surprised if Castellini does, but I also don't believe he bought the team not intending to try. So I think Krivsky will do what he can as long as it doesn't leave the 2007 Reds worse off, and we'll punt when it's fourth down but not before.

I'd say that's exactly right. Though don't expect any trick plays either. I figure Krivsky will play it straight up.

Roy Tucker
04-10-2006, 12:07 PM
I think we'll see some fence-straddling. I'd be seriously surprised if Krivsky really believes we're a serious contender, and mildly surprised if Castellini does, but I also don't believe he bought the team not intending to try. So I think Krivsky will do what he can as long as it doesn't leave the 2007 Reds worse off, and we'll punt when it's fourth down but not before.
This sounds about right to me.

The Reds can put a pretty nice starting 8 on the field, but after that it get shakey real fast. Paper-thin bench, a gas can bullpen, and a wing and a prayer for starters. One of them will ultimately prove fatal.

I've got no problem with a constant shuttle between Louisville and Cincinnati, letting go of the vets that suppposedly were to bolster the staff, dumpster diving off the waiver wire, etc. etc. Valuable parts will start to show themselves.

But Mr. Krivsky, please don't get all stupid and burn precious and valuable collateral on pyrite chasing.

Falls City Beer
04-10-2006, 12:34 PM
The only real cardinal sins this front office could commit would be to hunt prospects exclusively (no matter how hyped) and not be psychotically aggressive.

All the other stuff will work itself out, even the other mistakes. If you jealously guard ALL of your commodities, you'll probably get back, on average, .50 on the dollar for each or at best break even. I'd rather go with the philosophy that nets us $3.00 on the dollar in one trade and .20 on the dollar in another.

Ron Madden
04-11-2006, 01:20 AM
Overeraction? No, not at all. I never said Krivsky should have the mess that is currently the Reds cleaned up in three months or even a year. But if he ignores the bigger problems on this team, namely defense and starting pitching, and begins trading away what few resources he has to fix the bullpen, he should be relieved of his duties quickly. Fixing the bullpen first isn't going to help this team contend in '06 and beyond.

Good Post Reds Nd2, I agree 100%.

You said it much better than I ever could. :thumbup:

Reds Nd2
04-11-2006, 01:53 AM
Good Post Reds Nd2, I agree 100%.

You said it much better than I ever could. :thumbup:

Thanks Pappy. Others have said the same thing much better than I could ever hope to though.

Can you believe there are still people at Reds.com who think Griffey is still an adequate CF? It just makes my head hurt!

Ron Madden
04-11-2006, 02:06 AM
Yes I can. :laugh:

Lots of very strange ideas on that board IMO. ;)

KronoRed
04-11-2006, 03:12 AM
Reds.com is where the banana phone gets its material ;)

StillFunkyB
04-11-2006, 08:30 AM
http://www.ballscasten.com/jokes/images/mission%20impossible.jpg

Talk about your quandaries...

WHOA!