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View Full Version : Can a Pitcher be hung with an L without giving up a run?



zombie-a-go-go
04-13-2006, 06:47 AM
A question for those who know the rules of the game better than I, and/or know their trivia (because I surely don't):

If, for example, Brandon Claussen (don't laugh at me) pitched nine innings without giving up a hit, but a member of the opposing team managed to score on errors, and the Redlegs didn't score a run the entire game, does Claussen still get the Loss?

Don't know why this question occurred to me yesterday... ;)

icehole3
04-13-2006, 07:09 AM
No

:p:

puca
04-13-2006, 07:19 AM
A pitcher most certainly can lose without giving up an earned run. In the example you gave Claussen would get the 'L'.

remdog
04-13-2006, 07:28 AM
If he pitched the whole game, who else would you give the loss to? Sure, he would get the 'L'.

Rem

Deepred05
04-13-2006, 07:32 AM
Which begs the question, has a pitcher ever pitched a no hitter and lost? I seemed to recall one pitcher who lost a no hitter and the game in the tenth inning, but can't recall who it was.........

remdog
04-13-2006, 07:41 AM
Off the top of my head, Harvy Haddix (?) Pirates. In the 12th, I believe on a HR by Joe Adcock (Milwaukee Braves).

Rem

Mr Red
04-13-2006, 07:42 AM
I think it may have been Harvey Haddix...in the 50's...in fact it may have been an eleven inning no hitter. OK...I wont sleep tonight until I find out the answer...thanks deepred ;)

Mr Red
04-13-2006, 07:43 AM
Thanks Rem....I can rest peacefully now

Roy Tucker
04-13-2006, 07:43 AM
Ken Johnson of the Astros lost a no-hitter to the Reds back April 23, 1964. And it was a complete game no-hitter, not one that he eventually gave up a hit in in later innngs.

http://www.astrosdaily.com/history/19640423/

Deepred05
04-13-2006, 07:47 AM
I knew I could get the answer on this site. I thought it was Don Wilson of the Astros against the Reds in the late 60's.

StillFunkyB
04-13-2006, 07:57 AM
Off the top of my head, Harvy Haddix (?) Pirates. In the 12th, I believe on a HR by Joe Adcock (Milwaukee Braves).

Rem

Harvey's was a PERFECT game....

Matt Young did it for the Red Sox in the first game of a double header against the Indians. Clemens pitched the second game and gave up only 2 hits. Tribe holds the record for fewest hits in a double header, yet they still won the game they got no hits. Funny stuff.

Roy Tucker
04-13-2006, 08:01 AM
To ossify my status as a fossil, I remember listening to this game.

Joe Nuxhall was the winning pitcher.

Don Wilson did pitch a no-hitter against the Reds on May 1, 1969 at Crosley. Jim Maloney had pitched one against the Astros the night before. Evidently there was some bad blood.

http://www.astrosdaily.com/history/19690501/

RedFanAlways1966
04-13-2006, 08:02 AM
Not exactly what zombie describes, but this thread made me think of it...

Early in the 1917 season, at the ballpark now known as Wrigley Field, Hippo Vaughn dueled with Fred Toney of the CINCINNATI REDS for 9 hitless innings. After retiring 28 Cincinnati hitters without yielding a hit, Vaughn finally allowed a one-out base hit in the 10th to REDS shortstop Larry Kopf. Hal Chase followed with a liner dropped by outfielder Cy Williams, leaving runners on second and third. Gold-medal Olympic decathlete, turned major league outfielder, Jim Thorpe hit a slow roller to the third base side of the mound, and Vaughn tried to make a play on Kopf dashing home. But the defensive decision surprised catcher Art Wilson, and the throw bounced away from him, allowing Kopf to score.

And with that, the baseball gods cast Vaughn away for Toney. It was Fred Toney who finished with the no-hitter (after setting the Cubs down in order in the bottom half of the 10th) and the victory. And it was Vaughn who was forced to face the short end of the most unique single-game stick in baseball history.

RedFanAlways1966
04-13-2006, 08:07 AM
Melton Andrew "Andy" Hawkins (born January 21, 1960 in Waco, Texas) is a former major-league pitcher. A right-handed starter, Hawkins spent most of his career with the San Diego Padres, and also played for the New York Yankees and briefly for the Oakland Athletics.

In 1990, Hawkins pitched a no-hitter for the Yankees against the Chicago White Sox at Comiskey Park and lost the game. He was the first Yankees pitcher to lose a no-hitter. The 4-0 loss was also the biggest margin of a no-hitter loss in the 20th century. Several years later, the Elias Sports Bureau, the official keeper of statistics for Major League Baseball, changed the definition of a no-hitter so that Hawkins' game was no longer classified as a no-hitter. The precise change required that a pitcher throw nine full innings to be credited with a no-hitter. Since Hawkins played for the visiting team in the game in question, the White Sox never batted in the ninth inning, meaning that although he pitched a complete game, he did not pitch nine innings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Hawkins

Chip R
04-13-2006, 08:11 AM
No. Worst that can happen is he gets a no decision. A pitcher can lose a game without giving up a hit as several people have said. A pitcher can lose a game without giving up an earned run but a pitcher cannot get a loss if he does not give up a run.

RedFanAlways1966
04-13-2006, 08:37 AM
No. Worst that can happen is he gets a no decision. A pitcher can lose a game without giving up a hit as several people have said. A pitcher can lose a game without giving up an earned run but a pitcher cannot get a loss if he does not give up a run.

You are right, Chip. Those were the exact words when the question was asked (as the thread title reads).

remdog
04-13-2006, 09:42 AM
Yep. Chip is correct. I mis-read the title.

But hey, it lead to an interesting thread, right? :)

Rem

zombie-a-go-go
04-13-2006, 09:44 AM
Yep. Chip is correct. I mis-read the title.

But hey, it lead to an interesting thread, right? :)

Rem

Sure did.

Thanks for the intel, Chip. :beerme:

redsfan30
04-13-2006, 10:14 AM
Is there a rule where the official scorer can give the loss to who he sees fit, not just give it to the stereotypical loser (you all know what makes a losing pitcher a losing pitcher)?

Say Bronson Arroyo pitches 7 innings of one run ball and leaves the game down 1-0. Mike Burns comes in and gives up 8 runs in the 8th inning and the Reds rally to score two runs to make the final score 8-2. That loss goes to Arroyo since he left the game trailing and the team never at least tied the game while he was on the mound, or before the next pitcher took the mound.

99.99% of the time that loss goes to Arroyo, but isn't there a rule where the official scorer can credit Burns with that loss?

I've never seen it happen, but I thought it was at least possible.

See what I'm saying?

Is this a rule or did I totally make it up?

ochre
04-13-2006, 10:17 AM
That's roughly the way it used to be. I think it's part of the reason Cy Young has so many wins. It was the official scorers discretion as to who the winning pitcher was, etc.

Chip R
04-13-2006, 10:22 AM
Is there a rule where the official scorer can give the loss to who he sees fit, not just give it to the stereotypical loser (you all know what makes a losing pitcher a losing pitcher)?

Say Bronson Arroyo pitches 7 innings of one run ball and leaves the game down 1-0. Mike Burns comes in and gives up 8 runs in the 8th inning and the Reds rally to score two runs to make the final score 8-2. That loss goes to Arroyo since he left the game trailing and the team never at least tied the game while he was on the mound, or before the next pitcher took the mound.

99.99% of the time that loss goes to Arroyo, but isn't there a rule where the official scorer can credit Burns with that loss?

I've never seen it happen, but I thought it was at least possible.

See what I'm saying?

Is this a rule or did I totally make it up?

I don't think you can subjectively credit a pitcher with a loss but you can do it with a win. In your example Arroyo would have to be the losing pitcher there since he was the pitcher of record. It wouldn't matter if Burns gave up 3 or 20 runs.

MrCinatit
04-13-2006, 11:06 AM
I believe I know the answer to this one, but it has been bouncing around in my mind for a while:

Let's say a guy named Allen Wilson is pitching a spectacular game. For the first eight innings, he is perfect.
Unfortunately, Allen's team has gotten a couple of base hits, but no one has scored.
Allen faces the first batter of the ninth. The count goes 0-2. Wilson uncorks a pitch about five feet over the batter's head. The batter swings, misses, and reaches first. An obvious wild pitch.
On the first pitch to the second batter, the baserunner steals second. On the second pitch, the second batter hits a slow grounder to second - the baserunner moves to third.
The third batter comes up and hits a long fly ball to center. The runner on third tags up and and scores.
The fourth batter goes down with no problem. Inning over.
In their final at-bat, the Reds fail to do anything, therefor, losing the game 1-0.
Did Allen Wilson just pitch a perfect game and lose?

KearnsyEars
04-13-2006, 11:08 AM
absolutely

vaticanplum
04-13-2006, 11:24 AM
I believe I know the answer to this one, but it has been bouncing around in my mind for a while:

Let's say a guy named Allen Wilson is pitching a spectacular game. For the first eight innings, he is perfect.
Unfortunately, Allen's team has gotten a couple of base hits, but no one has scored.
Allen faces the first batter of the ninth. The count goes 0-2. Wilson uncorks a pitch about five feet over the batter's head. The batter swings, misses, and reaches first. An obvious wild pitch.
On the first pitch to the second batter, the baserunner steals second. On the second pitch, the second batter hits a slow grounder to second - the baserunner moves to third.
The third batter comes up and hits a long fly ball to center. The runner on third tags up and and scores.
The fourth batter goes down with no problem. Inning over.
In their final at-bat, the Reds fail to do anything, therefor, losing the game 1-0.
Did Allen Wilson just pitch a perfect game and lose?

I read that about five times, and maybe I'm missing something, but I think no, he didn't. Isn't a perfect game, by definition, one in which no runner reaches base AT ALL, by any means?

Roy Tucker
04-13-2006, 11:45 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

Rule 10.19 covers winning pitcher well, but no so much the losing pitcher.

I always thought it was the pitcher that was responsible for the runner that scored the go-ahead run from which his team never again tied the score or went ahead.

BRM
04-13-2006, 11:53 AM
I read that about five times, and maybe I'm missing something, but I think no, he didn't. Isn't a perfect game, by definition, one in which no runner reaches base AT ALL, by any means?

Baseball-Almanac defines a perfect game this way-


What is a perfect game in baseball? Author Paul Dickson in The New Baseball Dictionary (1999) describes it best with, "A no-hitter in which no opposing player reaches first base, either by a base hit, base on balls, hit batter, or fielding error; i.e., the pitcher or pitchers retire all twenty-seven (27) opposing batters in order."

Chip R
04-13-2006, 12:03 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

Rule 10.19 covers winning pitcher well, but no so much the losing pitcher.

I always thought it was the pitcher that was responsible for the runner that scored the go-ahead run from which his team never again tied the score or went ahead.

I believe you are correct.

Roy Tucker
04-13-2006, 12:09 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

Rule 10.19 covers winning pitcher well, but no so much the losing pitcher.

I always thought it was the pitcher that was responsible for the runner that scored the go-ahead run from which his team never again tied the score or went ahead.
And that you were the pitcher of record when that guy got on base no matter what the method (hit, error, catchers interfence, BB, whatever the rest of the ways runners can get on base). And the ball may gets tossed all over the yard in a comedy of errors to allow the run to score. Whoever put that guy on is the loser. Which sometimes stinks, hence the term "hard luck loser".

Hairs can get split when multiple pitchers pitch to the same batter. Like pitcher #1 get a 2-0 count on the batter and gets relieved, pitcher #2 throws one pitch to the batter to make it 3-0 and sprains his eyelid in the process and gets relieved, pitcher #3 pitches the last ball to walk the guy. And the guy scores the winning run. Who gets the walk and the loss?

But I digress. Never mind.

bigredmachine1976
04-13-2006, 12:26 PM
I'd have to give the walk to the guy with the sprained eyelid. Major League pitcher should have gotten their eyelids in shape during spring training. How much was the guy making?

Hollcat
04-14-2006, 12:35 AM
According to the original question I agree the answer is NO but in the example Claussen would be charged with an unearned run and he would get the loss.

How about this example. Claussen starts the bottom of the ninth in a scoreless game. The first batter reaches on an error and then Burns relieves and gives up a double which scores the runner and ends the game with a 1-0 loss. The run is charged to Claussen but when Burns came into the game it was tied. Is the loss pinned on Claussen or Burns.

Caveat Emperor
04-14-2006, 01:51 AM
This topic brings to mind an interesting situation I remember from 5 years ago:

http://www.cincypost.com/2001/aug/06/rednot080601.html

Reds reliever Danny Graves met all the usual requirements for what would have been his 20th save in Sunday's 10-9 win against the San Diego Padres. He entered at the start of the eighth inning with a one-run lead and preserved it.

In the end, though, all he got was his sixth victory of the year, the result of official scorer Bill Zavestoski invoking little-known Rule 10.19C(4), which states that if the starting pitcher doesn't go the requisite five innings, the scorer must not award a victory to the starter nor any other pitcher he judges to be ineffective.

Osvaldo Fernandez pitched the seventh for the Reds, turning an 8-7 lead into a 9-8 deficit, but he normally would have gotten the win because the Reds scored two in the top of the eighth to go ahead for good.

''He only pitched one inning, and he gave up two runs, which is an 18.00 ERA in the game,'' Zavestoski said. ''To me, that's ineffective. But I know Graves is the closer and probably wants the save more than the win.''

That's putting it mildly.

Chip R
04-14-2006, 09:23 AM
How about this example. Claussen starts the bottom of the ninth in a scoreless game. The first batter reaches on an error and then Burns relieves and gives up a double which scores the runner and ends the game with a 1-0 loss. The run is charged to Claussen but when Burns came into the game it was tied. Is the loss pinned on Claussen or Burns.

Claussen gets the loss since he was responsible for the runner reaching base.