PDA

View Full Version : On Dunn... from yesterday



osuceltic
04-14-2006, 09:36 AM
I didn't want to be seen as a hit-and-run poster on this one. I posted in the game thread something I heard about Dunn and his poor work ethic, especially when it comes to defense.

I took a couple of hits for it, including this:


This is a lie, and if your telling the truth, that beat writer should be fired. You're a newbie, so I will give you a freebie. But you need to know here that Dunn is not going to be traded. Dunn being traded is like the Bird Flu, yeah it could happen, but we don't talk about it.

First of all, I'm not new. I've been here a long time, although I don't post nearly as much as some. I'm certainly not lying about this. Why would I? But if you don't want to believe it, don't. I didn't think it was all that shocking to be honest. Does Dunn look like someone who spends a lot of time working on his defense?

I'm not saying Dunn will be traded. I don't have any indication that's the case. Teams put up with guys who don't work hard if they put up big numbers. Maybe the Reds will too. But when they're weighing everything and making decisions about the future, don't think this will be ignored. It will be a factor.

Anyway ... Like I said, I didn't want to be seen as a hit-and-run poster on this one. Pound me to bits if you like.

KoryMac5
04-14-2006, 09:41 AM
You have to look around the league guys like ManRam and Bonds don't play great D out in left but they have the opportunity to hit the ball out of the park everytime they are up. I'll take that than stellar D and 15hr power.

LincolnparkRed
04-14-2006, 09:44 AM
You have to look around the league guys like ManRam and Bonds don't play great D out in left but they have the opportunity to hit the ball out of the park everytime they are up. I'll take that than stellar D and 15hr power.

I would think Dunn would have more the 15hr. Otherwise :help:

Dunner44
04-14-2006, 09:47 AM
I would think Dunn would have more the 15hr. Otherwise :help:


He's saying he'd rather have Dunn than a good defensive fielder who only jacks 15 out all season.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 09:57 AM
Maybe the Reds will too. But when they're weighing everything and making decisions about the future, don't think this will be ignored. It will be a factor.They just inked him to a multi year contract, so worrying about "what" will happen to him based in his D in the first 8 games is th least of my worries.

KearnsyEars
04-14-2006, 10:10 AM
I just meant that they're not trading him anytime soon because he plays poor D. He's playing a little worse defense in left because he spent the spring playing first base and isn't in shape to play the outfield yet. You don't have to be a beat writer to know that.

They aren't paying him to be a great left fielder. He's always been adequate in left, not fabulous. He will never win a gold glove, but they aren't paying him to win gold gloves. There is no sense in talking about trading Dunn because it isn't going to happen. It's like talk of impeaching bush. This team is built around him.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 10:15 AM
It's like talk of impeaching bush. This team is built around him.

That is one poor example.

KearnsyEars
04-14-2006, 10:22 AM
I'm sorry I'm sorry.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 10:26 AM
I'm sorry I'm sorry.

My take is he's as important as "Tinky Winky" is to his team.

http://www.teletubbies.com/teletubbies.jpg

KearnsyEars
04-14-2006, 10:37 AM
Those tele-tubbys just scare me.

osuceltic
04-14-2006, 10:38 AM
They just inked him to a multi year contract, so worrying about "what" will happen to him based in his D in the first 8 games is th least of my worries.

Not saying anything is based on his D in the first eight games. I'm saying if they decide to look at a trade, his poor work ethic will be a factor in the decision. The poor D is just a symptom of the greater problem (laziness).

As for that multi-year contract, we both know that has nothing to do with trading him or not trading him. It gives them some cost certainty, but it also gives interested trading partners cost certainty. If anything, it increases his value on the market. Ask Bronson Arroyo about multi-year contracts.

Again, I'm not saying they want to trade him. I don't think they do. But they do want him to put in some work.


I just meant that they're not trading him anytime soon because he plays poor D. He's playing a little worse defense in left because he spent the spring playing first base and isn't in shape to play the outfield yet. You don't have to be a beat writer to know that.

They aren't paying him to be a great left fielder. He's always been adequate in left, not fabulous. He will never win a gold glove, but they aren't paying him to win gold gloves. There is no sense in talking about trading Dunn because it isn't going to happen. It's like talk of impeaching bush. This team is built around him.

The first comment about his work ethic came long before this season. So it had nothing to do with the first eight games and his lousy performance in the field during those games.

And you're right ... they're not paying him to be a great left fielder. But they are paying him to work hard and be a professional.

Look, he's still young. He could get it. And if he doesn't, he'll still hit a ton of home runs and that will be enough for some. And that's fine. I was just passing along something I was told. I will admit that I don't know if I've ever been more frustrated with a player than I was with Dunn during opening day. I kept hearing the words of that writer every time Dunn botched a play in the field. It was one of those moments when I wonder why I care so much when the guys playing the game obviously don't.

KearnsyEars
04-14-2006, 10:39 AM
I apologize I wasn't trying to come down hard on you Celtic. And you're really not a newbie, I didn't pay attention to your post count (as if that matters). I just thought you meant if dunn keeps playing sub par left field he's outta here, and I don't believe he'll be traded.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
04-14-2006, 10:40 AM
I cannot see any way that they could trade Dunn, it doesn't add up. WMP is gone KGJ is getting up there in years. what are we going to do trade the whole outfield away for a little bit of pitching. Come on, Am I the only one who realizes that we have a very short window here to make something happen. I mean how long do you think guys like Lopez will be affordable, Rich won't be around much longer. Hatteberg's going to need to be replaced eventually to contend. You would spend more money replacing and filling than you would to go out and get a top notch pitcher or two. Keep it close and make the right moves this year while you have a line-up capable of putting up 7 or 8 runs a game, why taer down the line up that led the national league in runs scored. Go get an ace and a 1B with some pop, and let Dave Williams and Paul wilson make the bullpen better.

membengal
04-14-2006, 10:40 AM
Not sure what is worse, hit and run posting, or hit and run accusations.

That is the second time you (Celtic) have trumpeted "laziness" as a label to apply to Dunn, with absolutely nothing to back it up. It's not that hard to do...here, watch:

"I was talking with a guy that works with osuceltic, and he says that celtic never does one thing beyond his job description to help around work and that he is the rudest person he has ever been around."

Now, not saying Celtic WILL lose his job, but IF he does, it might be because of that.



Now, obviously, untrue. I don't know Celtic, and he's not a public figure, so no reason why anyone would care about his work habits, but throwing around those kinds of labels about ballplayers based on supposed conversations isn't much better.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
04-14-2006, 10:42 AM
you lost me with this post please explain

membengal
04-14-2006, 10:43 AM
you lost me with this post please explain

Not you...celtic.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 10:51 AM
The poor D is just a symptom of the greater problem (laziness).

Yep, laziest guy with 70 EBH and 100 walks the Reds ever had.

I guess someone has to hold the title, might as well be Dunn.

registerthis
04-14-2006, 10:54 AM
Not you...celtic.

What if Celtic really *did* speak to a beat writer who told him those things? I suppose he could have kept them to himself, but if he's being honest he shouldn't have to.

I'm not saying I agree with the statement that "Dunn is lazy", but attack the post, not the poster. I don't see anything Celtic has done that's out of line.

membengal
04-14-2006, 10:58 AM
Then Celtic needs to hand over the name of the beat writer, and when he spoke with him. I am not "attacking the poster", but noting that without details, it is no better or worse than my example above.

osuceltic
04-14-2006, 11:04 AM
Yep, laziest guy with 70 EBH and 100 walks the Reds ever had.

I guess someone has to hold the title, might as well be Dunn.

And that's exactly why he's still a Red (my words, not anyone else's). You don't give up on a hitter like that easily.

Look, there were some questions in the thread yesterday about Dunn's defense and the suggestion that it seems to actually be getting worse. I just repeated something I was told. I hadn't posted it, but when the questions came up in the wake of his atrocious start defensively, I thought I'd mention it.

Like I said, Dunn can never change a thing and still hit a ton of home runs. Maybe that's good enough.

Mem, I'm not sure what you want. I'm repeating something I was told. You can believe it or not believe it, but I don't think there's anything in my history here at RedsZone that would suggest I'd make it up.

But that's why I posted today -- to answer those kinds of questions.

Reds1
04-14-2006, 11:06 AM
With Dunn its funny! He can look terrible in the field and then make a great play. Hence he was the play of the day on ESPN when he slammed into the wall to catch a ball a couple nights ago. Also, his size helps him catch a couple high ball others might miss. That comment was made on a ball yesterday that was hit on a line and Dunn just jumped high and snagged it. He also has an above average arm. I'm not saying I expect any gold gloves here, but I also say he's not going to be terrible everytime. He had ok speed and size and arm make him an average defensive player. And we all know he's not here for his defense. I think he's just had a rough patch in early 06, but with this HRs and RBI production, fewer SO, and even 2 sac flies already this guy has the potential to be the best offensive player in the league and I doubt highly he will be traded because I think we got him cheap for a few more years.

KearnsyEars
04-14-2006, 11:08 AM
I think anytime you bash Dunn or mention trading him, you're asking for trouble on this board, just my 2 cents.

redssouth
04-14-2006, 11:09 AM
"Yep, laziest guy with 70 EBH and 100 walks the Reds ever had.

I guess someone has to hold the title, might as well be Dunn."

What does that have to do with his defense? I dont think or know if he is lazy in his defensive preperation or improvement, but what does his hitting abilities have to do with it? I am starting to think that Adam Dunn is a lot like Dominique Wilkins for a basketball comparison, great offensive player, no doubting that, but the defense and intagibles dont really translate into making his team that much better.

I guess there might be a stat guy that can answer this, and I have no idea how to find it, is there a defensive statistic that can tell us how many balls that AD plays into EBH, i guess my thing is, if he gives up for example considerably more hits into his defensive area than a good fielder, it would be neat to compare and contrast what he actually brings to the team. Kind of like a +/- hockey rating. I would guess from yesterdays game, he was 2 for 4 while accounting for 2 runs directly, but he had an error that accounted for one, and a misplayed fly ball that i believe accounted for a couple of other runs. I am sure it is out there, I just think that it is interesting that all of Dunn's arguments seem to be that he OPS's a great number, but leaves out the fact that he is subpar defensively.

I do not think AD should be traded unless we are talking Cabrera and Willis, or something crazy like that, but i think it would be an interesting case study on analyzing his game on everything (defense, base running, and offense), and not just on his trips to the plate.

traderumor
04-14-2006, 11:11 AM
Jim Edmonds overran a ball looking up too soon trying to set up to make a throw. I know they teach not to do that in Little League, yet Major Leaguers, even Gold Glovers do the same thing. That is what Dunn did yesterday when I watched the replay. Of course, Brenneman acted like high treason was once again committed.

I'm pretty sure that an hour of practice a day for the next two weeks on such balls will not cure the problem. It seems that every time someone commits an error, folks act surprised and have to start saying the offender is lazy or lollygagging to account for the miscue.

osuceltic
04-14-2006, 11:13 AM
Then Celtic needs to hand over the name of the beat writer, and when he spoke with him. I am not "attacking the poster", but noting that without details, it is no better or worse than my example above.
Well that's just ridiculous.

Forget it ... I'm just the messenger. Consider me dead.

membengal
04-14-2006, 11:15 AM
Celtic, I don't "want" anything, other than to wish that labels accusing someone of an undesireable trait such as "laziness" not be thrown about so cavalierly. If you had said, "I think Dunn is lazy", I would disagree with you, and it would be no big deal. But when you drop an authority type figure (someone "in the know") like a beat writer with that alleged opinion, that takes it to another level. And to do so without details, well, I do take issue with that.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 11:20 AM
What does that have to do with his defense? I dont think or know if he is lazy in his defensive preperation or improvement, but what does his hitting abilities have to do with it

[ - - 1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS - C - - ]

The least important defensive positions are on the left, the fact remains that any healthy player who can run, not make an out 65% of the time he steps to the plate and hit 70 extra base hits a season is going to play.

Chances are he's on the left of the spectrum, it's a reality that has been a part of the game since the begining, some positions are for hitting first and foremost.

"Lazy" is a loaded term, and one that is based on ones opinion first and foremost, Bill DeWitt called Roy Cullenbine "The laziest ballplayer I've ever seen" because he walked 100 times in a season.

Adam Dunn has been servicable in LF for the past few seasons, I'm not going to assume that he's gotten way worse over one winter based on a sample size of 8 games.

I'd prefer him at first myself, but the Reds are willing to play him and pay him, even despite an iffy defense at times and whispers of "lazy" (a term usually thrown at talented folks for not trying as hard as the untalented judgement maker would if given the chance.)

But regardless of all that, he's paid to produce runs and he does that more often than he gives them up defensivly.

osuceltic
04-14-2006, 11:27 AM
[ - - 1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS - C - - ]

The least important defensive positions are on the left, the fact remains that any healthy player who can run, not make an out 65% of the time he steps to the plate and hit 70 extra base hits a season is going to play.

Chances are he's on the left of the spectrum, it's a reality that has been a part of the game since the begining, some positions are for hitting first and foremost.

"Lazy" is a loaded term, and one that is based on ones opinion first and foremost, Bill DeWitt called Roy Cullenbine "The laziest ballplayer I've ever seen" because he walked 100 times in a season.

Adam Dunn has been servicable in LF for the past few seasons, I'm not going to assume that he's gotten way worse over one winter based on a sample size of 8 games.

I'd prefer him at first myself, but the Reds are willing to play him and pay him, even despite an iffy defense at times and whispers of "lazy" (a term usually thrown at talented folks for not trying as hard as the untalented judgement maker would if given the chance.)

But regardless of all that, he's paid to produce runs and he does that more often than he gives them up defensivly.

All very true, but let me point out that my original post went into a little more detail than just "lazy." As I said there, I'm told he'll typically shag a few flies and call it a day. And before you ask ... by a few, I mean very few.

This wasn't just some writer saying, "ah, that guy's lazy." He specifically talked about the way he approached defense.

If they trade Dunn, it will be because they believe it improves the team. It won't be because he doesn't work hard enough on his defense. But if they're making a pro and con list when presented with a trade, that fact surely will appear on the pro-trade side.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 11:32 AM
But if they're making a pro and con list when presented with a trade, that fact surely will appear on the pro-trade side.

As it will with any player, hey it might change too, I know I changed as I got older. Nothing is etched in stone, including Dunn never working harder than folks believe he does.

As for "shagging" flies, very few pre game fielding exercises take place anymore, maybe it's wrong but's it's true. Dunn will have about 8 days off between now and October, chances are very slim that he'll be standing out there shagging flies while he pays a batboy to fungo to him.

However, I know for a fact that he spent mornings working on 1st this spring until they flipped him back to LF.

RANDY IN INDY
04-14-2006, 11:38 AM
I think anytime you bash Dunn or mention trading him, you're asking for trouble on this board, just my 2 cents.

Bingo. It doesn't even have to be a "bash." The slightest criticism is not tolerated.

While Dunn is a great offensive player, his defense is going the opposite direction. A guy with the raw athletic ability of Adam Dunn can be a good defensive outfielder. It's great that he has taken the responsibility for his miscues with no excuses, but I hope it translates into some inner pride on his part and some extra work on his defense.

With that said, I like Adam Dunn, a lot. I just might have some higher overall expectations for his total game than the legion of supporters that he has on this board that tends to overlook a lot of his rough areas because of his offensive prowess.

membengal
04-14-2006, 11:42 AM
Sigh. Criticisms are fine. Cloaking them with the sanction of an annoymous "beat writer" is something less than fine.

RANDY IN INDY
04-14-2006, 11:43 AM
As it will with any player, hey it might change too, I know I changed as I got older. Nothing is etched in stone, including Dunn never working harder than folks believe he does.

As for "shagging" flies, very few pre game fielding exercises take place anymore, maybe it's wrong but's it's true. Dunn will have about 8 days off between now and October, chances are very slim that he'll be standing out there shagging flies while he pays a batboy to fungo to him.

However, I know for a fact that he spent mornings working on 1st this spring until they flipped him back to LF.

The players that really want to work on their defense will find a coach, long before batting practice "shag time," and put in the work to make themselves better. (Shagging balls in BP can be the icing on the cake, if you really want to get better, because that's as close to live as you are going to get in practice) I'm not saying that Dunn isn't doing this right now, but if he wants to make the effort, he can find the time long before BP ever starts on a daily basis.

RedRage
04-14-2006, 11:47 AM
*sneaks in*

DUNN SUCKS!!!

*whistles innocently*
*sneaks out*

Seriously though: This thread = :explode:

TeamBoone
04-14-2006, 12:08 PM
Like I said, Dunn can never change a thing and still hit a ton of home runs. Maybe that's good enough.

You're right, he's no gold glover in left field... probably not even silver. But he's not a detriment to the team either. Actually, I think we had this conversation after Opening Day... when weather factors played a big part in situations that can not be duplicated on the practice field. He's had one error since then and also some very good plays which outnumber the errors.

Regarding work ethic, it comes back to things said about players by public sports figures (broadcasters, beat reporters, columnists, ESPN, etc). These people are NOT around these athletes 100% of the time that they are working to hone their sport/position.

Are they around when they show up early in the morning to work on a perceived flaw in their game? Are they around when they are in the underground cages working on their plate approach? Are they around during ST when they're working every day on learning a new position? Are they around when said players give up prestigeous spots in the WBC to work on their game (Dunn/Lopez)? Are they around when they show up to ST two weeks early? Are they around when they stay at the home park during ST while others are on the road because they're trying to spend as much time as possible putting in extra work to get ready for the season? Are they around to monitor their off season workouts?

Maybe they have seen them having fun during BP or shagging flies and grounders during practice. That does not mean they have a poor work ethic. I've read/hear about Dunn's perceived lack of work ethic exactly twice, until I read this. I've heard WMP called the laziest ball player one's ever seen, despite reports to the contrary by the Reds coaching staff (who are around these players, except during the off season).

Don't take it to heart. It may be true, but there's just as good a chance that it isn't. It could be a misconception based on one or two observations of a player having fun during practice. Or the truth may lie somewhere in between. Regardless, these public figures burn me when they make such accusations based on hearsay or a microcosm of time spent on the practice field with these guys.

But no matter what, unless it's HUGE, I highly doubt it would become a determining factor in judging an otherwise productive player's worth when contemplating a trade, much less the biggest reason for such trade.

That said, before I got on my soapbox, my point of this post was the comment bolded above... a comment I've seen twice in this thread regarding ADs HRs. Do you truly think that HRs is the only thing Adam Dunn contributes to this team? Good Lord! Have you looked at his stats in other meaningful categories? He contributes so much more than just HRs that I was shocked when I saw this.

There's a reason Adam Dunn gets so much support on this board... usually, it's because people look at him as being a one-dimentional player when he is so much more.

forfreelin04
04-14-2006, 12:11 PM
This thread does suck, but that being said Dunn is lazy in the outfield. Misplaying balls in the outfield does not come from a lack of talent in the major leagues. It comes from a lack of practice. Each game, each city will have different wind patterns. Each stadium will have different shadows being the sun will come from different directions at different times. As an outfielder, it is your job to aquaint yourself with these things. Dunn obviously does not have the instincts in the outfield like Junior thus he needs to practice and notices these things more then him. In my honest opinion, he simly hasn't been doing these things.

However, his bat more than makes up for any blunders in the outfield. But if I had it my way he would be playing first base.

Finally, Celtic you have to realize most of these posters our offensive minded gentlemen with OPS sugarplum dreams dancing in their heads at night. If you attack Dunn, you violate the very person that symbolizes their baseball philosophy. Personally, I would trade Dunn in a heartbeat if I was to get players in return that would bring the Reds a playoff game. If not, forget about it.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 12:14 PM
Personally, I would trade Dunn in a heartbeat if I was to get players in return that would bring the Reds a playoff game. If not, forget about it.I like that sugarplum too.

But hey, winning is just part of my baseball philosphy.

redssouth
04-14-2006, 12:17 PM
When you say people look at Dunn as only hitting homeruns, and that he does so much more for this team, I think you are starting to hit the tip of the iceburg in why some people criticize his game.
I would not say all he does is hit HR's. I think his contributions are far greater than that. He continues innings by taking walks or in simplest terms, not making outs, he forces managers to make moves late in games, he works counts that can get the club into the opposing teams bullpen, and I think he keeps the team loose with his lockeroom presence. But, just to play devils advocate, why are you so against people only looking at one aspect, in your view HR's, when there are many more aspects of the game that seem to be left to be evaluated (defense, base running).
I agree with WOY that their are certain spots in the field that are tolerated with players that mash the ball, always have, always, will. My only interest would be deriving a stat that would show a point of diminishing returns when it comes to offense vs. all other aspects of the game. Would you take a guy that helps save runs and contributes less at the plate, vs. the guy that his entire existence seems to made in the batters box? I am sure there is a line that could be drawn somewhere.

I have always believed that Dunn may be just one of the great offensive players that could very well be a guy to build around. Its really the age old argument of ginger vs. mary ann, in baseball terms, do you want to build the winner with all around baseball savvy guys that do everything well, or a team with players that do one or two things really well that make up for there shortcommings in other areas?

forfreelin04
04-14-2006, 12:23 PM
I like that sugarplum too.

But hey, winning is just part of my baseball philosphy.


HAHA, thought you would like that West. Winning IS a part of everyone's baseball philosophy. However, as fans, we like to win WITH our favorite player in the lineup, when we actually should just be concerned with Winning in general. Which the Reds are doing now, need I never complain till they stop, Go Reds!

pedro
04-14-2006, 12:23 PM
And frankly I'm going to take a lot of what might be said by many of the beat writers around baseball with a grain of salt. Talk about people who have proven themselves to be pretty lazy. When people say that print media is dead, sometimes I'm inclined to believe them.

Caveat Emperor
04-14-2006, 12:23 PM
This thread does suck, but that being said Dunn is lazy in the outfield. Misplaying balls in the outfield does not come from a lack of talent in the major leagues. It comes from a lack of practice. Each game, each city will have different wind patterns. Each stadium will have different shadows being the sun will come from different directions at different times. As an outfielder, it is your job to aquaint yourself with these things. Dunn obviously does not have the instincts in the outfield like Junior thus he needs to practice and notices these things more then him. In my honest opinion, he simly hasn't been doing these things.

However, his bat more than makes up for any blunders in the outfield. But if I had it my way he would be playing first base.

Finally, Celtic you have to realize most of these posters our offensive minded gentlemen with OPS sugarplum dreams dancing in their heads at night. If you attack Dunn, you violate the very person that symbolizes their baseball philosophy. Personally, I would trade Dunn in a heartbeat if I was to get players in return that would bring the Reds a playoff game. If not, forget about it.

At the risk of being grouped into the "offensive minded gentlemen with OPS sugarplum dreams dancing in their heads at night" category of RedsZone that you seem to carry a mild dislike for, let me at least point out thtat it's not like Adam Dunn has ever been accused of being a great fielder. In his case -- yes, a lot of the balls he misplays comes from a lack of outfield talent. And if you're going to say that he's not as good an outfielder as Griffey, one of the finest outfield talents (in his prime) of this generation, that's not even close to a fair comparison.

Dunn is a medicore outfielder -- that's news (I thought) to precisely no one. He could shag fly balls from sunup to sundown between games, it wouldn't change the fact that he's a lumbering power hitter out there. Fact is, he helps the team more by going to the cage and working on not swinging through pitches that are in his hitting zone.

forfreelin04
04-14-2006, 12:39 PM
At the risk of being grouped into the "offensive minded gentlemen with OPS sugarplum dreams dancing in their heads at night" category of RedsZone that you seem to carry a mild dislike for, let me at least point out thtat it's not like Adam Dunn has ever been accused of being a great fielder. In his case -- yes, a lot of the balls he misplays comes from a lack of outfield talent. And if you're going to say that he's not as good an outfielder as Griffey, one of the finest outfield talents (in his prime) of this generation, that's not even close to a fair comparison.

Dunn is a medicore outfielder -- that's news (I thought) to precisely no one. He could shag fly balls from sunup to sundown between games, it wouldn't change the fact that he's a lumbering power hitter out there. Fact is, he helps the team more by going to the cage and working on not swinging through pitches that are in his hitting zone.

I too, see sugarplaums my humorous play by play friend. Sometimes it is OPS, other times its good defense, other times its trying to figure out what a sugarplum actually is.

Comparing Griffey to Dunn was merely a tactic to show the viewing audience that there are some naturals in the outfield and those who have to work for it. That being said, Dunn obviously has a natural ability to hit a baseball sometimes even a very long way quite effortlessly. As a baseball player, you always want to fine tune those skills which are natural but you want to practice steadily on those which are not natural, even when getting paid millions of dollars to do so. Granted, Dunn will always help this team more than hurt it with his bat. But I think, Redsfans like Celtic, have a legitimate gripe when they see bad plays fron their defense. Keep in mind sire, that hitting a baseball 500 feet can be done by only a few, but catching baseballs in the outfield can be done by many. Many of those getting paid nothing to play the game of baseball.

Finally, no one would argue that it is news that Dunn is a mediocre outfielder. However, it is has been apparent to me over the course of these few games in April, that his fielding looks worse then it had been previous years. A mediocre outfielder should either stay mediocre due to his "lumbering" frame or get better due to his work ethic. Certainly, he should not get worse. Shagging fly balls may not change the fact he is a mediocre outfielder, but it would certainly would not hurt him either.

forfreelin04
04-14-2006, 12:41 PM
Before I go I would like to offer up an explanation for Dunn's mishaps in the outfield. That would simply be being told he was going to play first base for an entire offeseason.

traderumor
04-14-2006, 01:11 PM
The entire discussion is predicated on a red herring that "Dunn is making errors in the outfield because he is lazy and does not practice fielding enough." Enough already.

Red Leader
04-14-2006, 01:32 PM
The entire discussion is predicated on a red herring that "Dunn is making errors in the outfield because he is lazy and does not practice fielding enough." Enough already.


Agree.

forfreelin04
04-14-2006, 01:42 PM
Gentlemen,

Am I confusing you by writing about "how to play the game?"

redssouth
04-14-2006, 01:45 PM
The entire discussion is predicated on a red herring that "Dunn is making errors in the outfield because he is lazy and does not practice fielding enough." Enough already.


If you do not like the discussion that is taking place, please, feel free not to participate. I think that while the topic started off on him being "lazy" there has actually been worthwhile discussion on things that may interest some people.

Chip R
04-14-2006, 01:48 PM
And frankly I'm going to take a lot of what might be said by many of the beat writers around baseball with a grain of salt. Talk about people who have proven themselves to be pretty lazy. When people say that print media is dead, sometimes I'm inclined to believe them.

Yeah, that's the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it?

KearnsyEars
04-14-2006, 01:48 PM
Well he's not going anywhere so that is the end of the discussion whether the beat writers and coaches like his play in Left Field or not. Dunn may not be bigger than the reds organization, but he is certainly bigger on the totem pole then all of the coaching staff, and other players on this team currently. Fans need to live with it, Dunn is a red and will be for a long, long time.

redsfan30
04-14-2006, 01:52 PM
Well he's not going anywhere so that is the end of the discussion whether the beat writers and coaches like his play in Left Field or not. Dunn may not be bigger than the reds organization, but he is certainly bigger on the totem pole then all of the coaching staff, and other players on this team currently. Fans need to live with it, Dunn is a red and will be for a long, long time.
Oh good Lord...

KearnsyEars
04-14-2006, 01:57 PM
well its the truth isnt it?

redsfan30
04-14-2006, 01:58 PM
well its the truth isnt it?
If you say so....

KearnsyEars
04-14-2006, 02:01 PM
Not a dunn fan i take it?

pedro
04-14-2006, 02:05 PM
I think the point is that we don't know who will be Red next week, let alone next year or in the years beyond.

BCubb2003
04-14-2006, 02:09 PM
We should allow for the possibility that Dunn isn't working hard enough, but if people here are protective of him, it's because he's gotten so much misguided grief from beat writers and announcers for inconsequential things like strikeouts and sac flies. Work ethic is hard to measure, and so far it exists in the realm of gossip. The things you can measure about Dunn point to a Hall of Famer. A couple of bad games in the field in early April should not be enough to launch a season-long gripefest about a guy who's likely to set the Reds' season home run record this year.

It does point out a dilemma about all the talk of the Reds' poor defense. What are you going to do? Trade Dunn for Mike Cameron? Trade Felipe Lopez for a Rey Ordonez type? If you really want to solve the defense, it probably means moving Dunn to first (and being patient), Griffey to left, Felipe to second, maybe Denorfia in center and a no-hit guy at short.

redsfan30
04-14-2006, 02:09 PM
Not a dunn fan i take it?
1. How do you know he's not going anywhere? You're telling me that if the Reds get a deal for dominate starting pitching and some pitching prospects that they shouldn't take it? Or am I supposed to just deal with the fact that he's not going anywhere because you don't think he is?

2. He's bigger than the coaching staff and the rest of the players on his team? Please. No single player is bigger than his coaching staff or his teamates. Period.

3. Why is it that fans have to take your opinion and "deal with it" as fact? Yeah, he might be around a while and if he is, great. I'm all for that. He might also be traded at some point and if he brings back a boat load of talent that helps the Reds win games I'd be all for that too.

4. I've never not been an Adam Dunn fan. I am not a fan, however, of posts that make him out to be the next coming of God himself. I'm not a fan of posts the proclaim him as "bigger than the coaching staff and other players on his team" and having to "live with it." That's what I'm not a fan of.

Team Clark
04-14-2006, 02:13 PM
As for "shagging" flies, very few pre game fielding exercises take place anymore, maybe it's wrong but's it's true. Dunn will have about 8 days off between now and October, chances are very slim that he'll be standing out there shagging flies while he pays a batboy to fungo to him.


Actually that is a completely false statement. EVERY team has infield and outfield practice during "early" sessions and during regulary scheduled batting practice EVERY day. The early sessions are typically between 2:30 and 3:45 before scheduled batting practice begins. Each team takes infield EVERY day unless weather does not permit. A lot of regulars "elect" not to participate during early infield/outfield but nonetheless it does take place. Flyball drills are also a part of the regular batting practice schedule. A coach is stationed just beyond second base to hit fungoes for just that purpose.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 02:36 PM
A lot of regulars "elect" not to participate during early infield/outfield but nonetheless it does take place.Thus in a manner making my assertion somewhat not totally false.

But hey, I'm speaking on second hand info I got from XM radio... damn media.

Team Clark
04-14-2006, 03:20 PM
Thus in a manner making my assertion somewhat not totally false.

But hey, I'm speaking on second hand info I got from XM radio... damn media.

LOL! Excellent point. I take my XM everywhere. Tremendous investment. A lot of great talk radio on channel 155.

TeamCasey
04-14-2006, 04:03 PM
Bingo. It doesn't even have to be a "bash." The slightest criticism is not tolerated.

I agree. I didn't read the game thread, but telling someone that they'll give them a freebie like they hold some almighty power sounds threatening to me. It's just not necessary.

Each season there seems to be one player that people get really riled over when they're discussed. It used to be Griffey.

Cedric
04-14-2006, 04:05 PM
I agree. I didn't read the game thread, but telling someone that they'll give them a freebie like they hold some almighty power sounds threatening to me. It's just not necessary.

Each season there seems to be one player that people get really riled over when they're discussed. It used to be Griffey.

Exactly. Calling someone a newbie is pretty insulting and rude in itself. I don't agree with Celtic on this issue about laziness, but it's a worthy thread.

forfreelin04
04-14-2006, 11:26 PM
Thank you all for giving me some hope. Hope that there is a few out there who know the Reds are bigger than one player.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 11:28 AM
Good bit about "innuendo" and unnamed sources in Sheehan's column about Bonds.

It applies somewhat to this Dunn thread, so I replaced the word Steroids with Dunn is lazy.


That’s the problem. Everyone “knows” things, but no one wants to actually go on the record and state them, no one wants to actually come forward and level an accusation. So it become a wink-and-nod thing, where people whisper names to each other and play little games and no progress is ever made. Rumors, not facts, become the stock-in-trade, and within the game--and within the co-opted insider-centric media that feed off of access--the Dunn is lazy story lives on, but off of blind quotes and rumors, rather than information.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4977

BUTLER REDSFAN
04-15-2006, 11:37 AM
i know i'll get ripped for this--i like dunn..dont want him traded or anything like that...and yes he gets his 40(solo shot) a year...but just time and time again he strikes out with runners on and it never gets any better....why does this never improve????

pedro
04-15-2006, 01:01 PM
i know i'll get ripped for this--i like dunn..dont want him traded or anything like that...and yes he gets his 40(solo shot) a year...but just time and time again he strikes out with runners on and it never gets any better....why does this never improve????

Because what your saying isn't true. Dunn struck out 1 every 4.4 times with men on base and 1 every 3.56 times with no one on last year.

Plus you'll notice that half his homers last year where with men on base.

Facts are the suck aren't they?




By Situation AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

None On 309 20 77 23 1 20 20 40 4 98 0 0 .249 .343 .524 .867
Runners On 234 87 57 12 1 20 81 74 8 70 4 2 .244 .437 .560 .997

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 01:27 PM
Maybe this should be elsewhere..

But does it seem to anyone else that lately when guys are on Dunn refuses to take a walk? he got down 3-0 last night then K'd, swinging twice at pitches that were ball 4.

Could it be he's being "advised" to swim more with men on?

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 01:43 PM
Maybe this should be elsewhere..

But does it seem to anyone else that lately when guys are on Dunn refuses to take a walk? he got down 3-0 last night then K'd, swinging twice at pitches that were ball 4.

Could it be he's being "advised" to swim more with men on?

Yes.

It seems like he is swinging at bad pitches more and trying harder with runners on. I don't know if the Reds have told him to expand his zone(bad idea) with runners on in an attempt to drive in more runs or if he's doing it on his own. Either way, he needs to quit.

I don't mind the caught looking strikeouts or striking out on good pitches. However, I get fed up with strikeouts on pitches that are no where near the zone, and that is where most of his K's have been lately. He's swinging at everything below the ankle.

Wheelhouse
04-15-2006, 02:01 PM
I didn't want to be seen as a hit-and-run poster on this one. I posted in the game thread something I heard about Dunn and his poor work ethic, especially when it comes to defense.

I took a couple of hits for it, including this:



First of all, I'm not new. I've been here a long time, although I don't post nearly as much as some. I'm certainly not lying about this. Why would I? But if you don't want to believe it, don't. I didn't think it was all that shocking to be honest. Does Dunn look like someone who spends a lot of time working on his defense?

I'm not saying Dunn will be traded. I don't have any indication that's the case. Teams put up with guys who don't work hard if they put up big numbers. Maybe the Reds will too. But when they're weighing everything and making decisions about the future, don't think this will be ignored. It will be a factor.

Anyway ... Like I said, I didn't want to be seen as a hit-and-run poster on this one. Pound me to bits if you like.

What idiot said there are Reds topic you can't discuss?