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View Full Version : Reds promote outfielder Quinton McCrackenand other Reds moves.



Gallen5862
04-14-2006, 05:13 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/content/printer_friendly/cin/y2006/m04/d14/c1400106.jsp
Reds promote outfielder Quinton McCracken
04/14/2006 4:58 PM ET
Cincinnati Reds Media Relations

CINCINNATI -- The Cincinnati Reds today purchased the contract of OF Quinton McCracken and designated for assignment IF Andy Abad.
McCracken is expected to be in uniform number 30 for tonight's game in St. Louis.

McCracken, 35, on Valentine's Day was signed to a minor league contract with an invitation to Major League spring training camp. He began the minor league season at Class A Sarasota, where he went 8-for-16 (.500) with 3 runs scored and a triple.

In spring training for the Reds McCracken hit safely in 13 of his 17 appearances (16-45, .356, 4rbi). His complete bio is on the following pages of this release.

Abad, 33, this season made all 5 appearances for the Reds as a pinch hitter (0-3, 2bb). He was the only non-roster invitee to make the Opening Day roster. In spring training he hit .319 and led the club with 28 appearances.

This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/2006/04/slew-of-transactions.asp#comments
A slew of transactions

ST. LOUIS -- Lots of moves today on the Louisville side:


Jacob Cruz and Frank Menechino have been released

William Bergolla (high groin strain) and Ray Olmedo (strained right elbow) have been activated from Louisville's DL

Terrence Long has been transferred from Billings to Louisville

Left-hander Mike Venafro has signed and will report to Louisville

Right-hander Tom Shearn and catcher John Castellano have been assigned to Billings

savafan
04-14-2006, 05:15 PM
Why the need for McCracken?

Gallen5862
04-14-2006, 05:17 PM
I like the move of Mccraken being added to the active roster to add another outfielder and lose one middle infielder. I hope abad clears waivers. It is somewhat surprizing that Cruz and Menechino got cut. I am glad to see Bergolla and Olmedo are healthy. Who is Left Hander Mike Venafro? I wonder if Abad and Kata will be packaged in a trade? Kata has to be traded or put on waivers pretty soon.

Red Leader
04-14-2006, 05:17 PM
Why the need for McCracken?

1) He's a veteran.
2) He knows how to win.
3) He plays the game the right way.

and most of all:

4) He's scrappy.

flyer85
04-14-2006, 05:23 PM
now we're a playoff contender

TRF
04-14-2006, 05:24 PM
Venafro: RP with Texas, Oakland, TB, and the Dodgers.

yawn.

smith288
04-14-2006, 05:26 PM
Bumbed about Cruz just on a personal level. He is a good guy. Hope he lands somewhere.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 05:28 PM
446 starts in CF in his career, that's why the need for McCracken, at least over Abad.

Especially with a balky knee on Junior.

The OF defense is instantly better if he's used to correctly, which of course will be the debate everytime his name comes up from now on.

registerthis
04-14-2006, 05:31 PM
446 starts in CF in his career, that's why the need for McCracken, at least over Abad.

Especially with a balky knee on Junior.

The OF defense is instantly better if he's used to correctly, which of course will be the debate everytime his name comes up from now on.

Agreed. I can see his role on this team. Sparingly.

SirFelixCat
04-14-2006, 05:39 PM
446 starts in CF in his career, that's why the need for McCracken, at least over Abad.

Especially with a balky knee on Junior.

The OF defense is instantly better if he's used to correctly, which of course will be the debate everytime his name comes up from now on.


Agreed. And does he have any wheels? Could he be another PR in late innings? Granted with have Brandon Phillips already, but another speedy guy wouldn't hurt.

Don't really know much about McCracken....

redsfan30
04-14-2006, 05:51 PM
He'll make a nice 9th inning defensive replacement for Adam Dunn.

Spitball
04-14-2006, 05:58 PM
Why the need for McCracken?

Is anyone else wondering about the severity of Griffey's injury?:confused:

redsfan30
04-14-2006, 06:02 PM
Is anyone else wondering about the severity of Griffey's injury?:confused:
He's not in the starting lineup tonight, but I seriously doubt this move has anything to do with Junior. It's been talked about for almost two weeks that McCraken was almost ready to rejoin the team.

Chris Denorfia would get the callup if they were more worried about Junior than they're letting on.

KronoRed
04-14-2006, 06:02 PM
I don't think this mean anything concerning JR, just another crafty vet.

flyer85
04-14-2006, 06:04 PM
I don't think this mean anything concerning JR, just another crafty vet.shows Krivsky is looking pretty clueless.

reds44
04-14-2006, 06:05 PM
Why the need for McCracken?
What was the need for Abad? I'll take McCracken over him any day.

flyer85
04-14-2006, 06:12 PM
What was the need for Abad? I'll take McCracken over him any day.what about the logical 4th OF of Denorfia?(who should not have been sent down). Then Freel could play 2B and Womack could grab some bench. Then again a smart GM would release him.

reds44
04-14-2006, 06:14 PM
what about the logical 4th OF of Denorfia?(who should not have been sent down). Then Freel could play 2B and Womack could grab some bench. Then again a smart GM would release him.
He won't get consistent at bats in MLB, but he will in AAA.

If it comes to a point where we need an outfielder to play everyday, Deno will befroe McCracken.

flyer85
04-14-2006, 06:18 PM
He won't get consistent at bats in MLB, but he will in AAA.with the health track records of Kearns and Jr, Denorfia would likely get plenty of bats and he would get even more if the current stupidity revolving around 2B wasn't there. The kid is ready for the majors, playing down in AAA is proving nothing when he can really help the major league team.

KronoRed
04-14-2006, 06:18 PM
He has nothing left to prove in AAA.

Ahh well.

reds44
04-14-2006, 06:22 PM
He has nothing left to prove in AAA.

Ahh well.
You're right, but we are the Reds. We always have too many outfielders.

flyer85
04-14-2006, 06:24 PM
You're right, but we are the Reds. We always have too many outfielders.I only count two healthy ones(Dunn and Kearns). Freel should be playing 2nd and Mccracken shouldn't even be on a major league roster.

reds44
04-14-2006, 06:26 PM
I only count two healthy ones(Dunn and Kearns). Freel should be playing 2nd and Mccracken shouldn't even be on a major league roster.
He played his way on in Spring Training. And like I said I will take him over Abad any day. No need to let Deno rot on the bench in MLB, keep him sharp in AAA.

Like you said he will most likely be needed by the end of the year.

flyer85
04-14-2006, 06:32 PM
He played his way on in Spring Training.spring training doesn't mean squat when you have the track record that McCracken has. He is a AAAA player and at age 35 he is the one who should be playing in Louisville and should only be used as a last option.

Not mpressed by Wayne K. He brings in guys the QM, SH CH and leaves Womack on the roster and yet makes no effort to bring in some players who might actually help.

reds44
04-14-2006, 06:34 PM
spring training doesn't mean squat when you have the track record that McCracken has. He is a AAAA player and at age 35 he is the one who should be playing in Louisville and should only be used as a last option.

Not mpressed by Wayne K. He brings in guys the QM, SH CH and leaves Womack on the roster and yet makes no effort to bring in some players who might actually help.
Who should be up here then?

flyer85
04-14-2006, 06:35 PM
Who should be up here then?
Uhhh ... Denorfia?

reds44
04-14-2006, 06:37 PM
Uhhh ... Denorfia?
I disagree and you know why.

If not Denorfia then who else would you pick?

savafan
04-14-2006, 06:55 PM
I disagree and you know why.

If not Denorfia then who else would you pick?

Stratton

KronoRed
04-14-2006, 06:57 PM
Stratton can't play CF

savafan
04-14-2006, 07:09 PM
Stratton can't play CF

Kearns could.

The Reds bench is pretty weak. Look at 1999, the Reds had Jeffrey Hammonds and Dmitri Young on the bench. In 2000 it was Alex Ochoa and Michael Tucker. 1995, Mark Lewis and his .408 OBP and Jerome Walton, Eric Anthony, and Thomas Howard. 1992, Glenn Braggs, Bip Roberts and Billy Hatcher. 1990, Hal Morris, Glenn Braggs and Herm Winningham. In every season that the Reds have won, there has been more than one guy who could come off of the bench and change the direction of the game.

When you look at the Reds bench right now, who can you trust to have a game changing effect? Ryan Freel and...? I suppose if Milton and Arroyo start pinch hitting, they could become the top three bench guys on this team.

Rojo
04-14-2006, 08:23 PM
Ya know, getting Denorfia ab's in AAA and putting a vet on the bench ain't all that controversial. Me no compendo the vitriol.

And, IIRC, Venafro is a submariner, which is really rare for a lefty. Nice to have a few different looks in the pen. Krivsky looks like a guy who pays attention.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 08:29 PM
Kearns could.

39 total starts in CF, none since 2003.

That ship has sailed.

savafan
04-14-2006, 08:41 PM
39 total starts in CF, none since 2003.

That ship has sailed.

So Quinten McCracken is a better option? McCracken has no business being the fifth outfielder on any major league club, let alone the fourth.

McCracken's career fielding percentage in centerfield is .982 vs. Kearns' .991 CF Fldng pct.

KronoRed
04-14-2006, 08:51 PM
Deno is the only option and he should be up.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 08:58 PM
So Quinten McCracken is a better option?Looks that way.

As for the fielding percentage it's a waste of time comparing a corner OF with a CF on two diffrent clubs by fielding percentage

IslandRed
04-14-2006, 09:44 PM
Ya know, getting Denorfia ab's in AAA and putting a vet on the bench ain't all that controversial. Me no compendo the vitriol.

Me neither.

To me, it's a pretty simple thing -- if one believes Denorfia will be a legitimate major league regular, then he's better off playing every day in Louisville rather than collecting splinters in Cincinnati. People forget that his resemblance of a big-league hitter is a pretty recent thing and he's not yet logged a full season in Triple-A. It wouldn't kill us to get him more at-bats and show it wasn't some sort of fluke.

But if one believes Denorfia's destined to be a bench player, then yeah, he may as well be up with the Reds.

savafan
04-14-2006, 10:05 PM
As for the fielding percentage it's a waste of time comparing a corner OF with a CF on two diffrent clubs by fielding percentage

I was just comparing their fielding percentages in centerfield.

westofyou
04-14-2006, 10:11 PM
I was just comparing their fielding percentages in centerfield.
Sample size and the different OF's still make it not a good comp.

reds44
04-14-2006, 11:20 PM
Me neither.

To me, it's a pretty simple thing -- if one believes Denorfia will be a legitimate major league regular, then he's better off playing every day in Louisville rather than collecting splinters in Cincinnati. People forget that his resemblance of a big-league hitter is a pretty recent thing and he's not yet logged a full season in Triple-A. It wouldn't kill us to get him more at-bats and show it wasn't some sort of fluke.

But if one believes Denorfia's destined to be a bench player, then yeah, he may as well be up with the Reds.
The man speaks the truth.

Bill
04-14-2006, 11:33 PM
Too bad about Cruz. I was happy to see when he initially signed with the Reds (about the same time as Freel so I was psyched as much as you can be for such signings). He performed well in 03 but became a K machine recently. Never could overcome all the injuries he suffered early in his once promising career.

At least I was right about Freel.

Crash Davis
04-15-2006, 02:09 AM
shows Krivsky is looking pretty clueless.

:confused:

Everybody expected the '06 Reds to be better than their 7-3 record, right?

That offense is so riddled with holes it's amazing they pushed a run across Friday night.

When results aren't enough, what can appease the critics?

SteelSD
04-15-2006, 02:33 AM
I disagree and you know why.

If not Denorfia then who else would you pick?

Denorfia, because your disagreement doesn't make sense.

With Griffey lame and an open roster slot, there shouldn't be a lineup that doesn't include Chris Denorfia in Center Field and Ryan Freel at 2B. Well, frankly, there shouldn't be a lineup that doesn't include Chris Denorfia in Center Field and Ryan Freel at 2B, but that's another topic entirely.

Calling up a near-26 year old Denorfia and asking him to play isn't going to stunt his growth in any way, shape, or form. It'll do nothing but help the team.

SteelSD
04-15-2006, 02:42 AM
:confused:

Everybody expected the '06 Reds to be better than their 7-3 record, right?

That offense is so riddled with holes it's amazing they pushed a run across Friday night.

When results aren't enough, what can appease the critics?

The expectation of continued positive long-term results created by an optimized MLB roster.

Next time that happens, it'll be the first time.

reds44
04-15-2006, 02:43 AM
Denorfia, because your disagreement doesn't make sense.

With Griffey lame and an open roster slot, there shouldn't be a lineup that doesn't include Chris Denorfia in Center Field and Ryan Freel at 2B. Well, frankly, there shouldn't be a lineup that doesn't include Chris Denorfia in Center Field and Ryan Freel at 2B, but that's another topic entirely.

Calling up a near-26 year old Denorfia and asking him to play isn't going to stunt his growth in any way, shape, or form. It'll do nothing but help the team.
Fine call him up and let him turn into Wily Mo Pena and rot on the bench. Griffey missed 2 game, don't act like he has missed a week.

We scored 8 runs in our 1st game without Grifffey, and today we faced a Cy Young pitcher (and struggled, but Denorfia wouldn't change that). This team isn't lacking offense.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 02:57 AM
JR can't be counted on to play a lot, he misses A LOT of games every year, why not use those at bats on the young kid?

We'll see, if it's McCracken and Womack getting at bats it's gonna look silly they didn't give them to the kid...but we'll see.

SteelSD
04-15-2006, 03:12 AM
Fine call him up and let him turn into Wily Mo Pena and rot on the bench. Griffey missed 2 game, don't act like he has missed a week.

We scored 8 runs in our 1st game without Grifffey, and today we faced a Cy Young pitcher (and struggled, but Denorfia wouldn't change that). This team isn't lacking offense.

Wily Mo Pena was 21 years old when he needed to be in the Show full time. Chris Denorfia is nearly 26. There's no comparison to be made there.

Secondly, Denorfia in CF is better than Freel in CF defensively and Freel at 2B is better than Womack at 2B both offensively and defensively.

There's nothing to be lost and everything to be gained by slotting Denorfia in CF while Griffey's down. Getting Denorfia here yesterday helps both the offense and the defense. He's the best option to start in place of an injured player and the best option off the bench in the system (including anyone on the current MLB roster). He produced a .896 OPS in AAA last season and has started off at an 1.044 OPS in AAA this season. He's a better CF option than anyone else on the MLB roster and he's an age at which he could easily break out in even a reserve role.

You can go small sample size all you want, but the best teams in the long run have the best possible combination of players on their roster. Denorfia is better than all the other options and is talented enough to produce right now even in a limited role.

You can continue your "If it ain't broke don't fix it" stance or you could figure out that producing and optimal MLB roster has significant value. Your choice.

Hoosier Red
04-15-2006, 09:16 AM
One thing I don't get from the people who are worried about "stunting" Denorfia's growth.

So what?
He's 26 now, he's going to be a Red for at least 3 more years. If the the plan goes well, the following players will also be Reds for 3 more years; Austin Kearns, Adam Dunn, Ken Griffey Jr.
Now admittedly one of these three could be moved to first base,(but of course Votto is showing some promise right now at AA.)
So exactly when are we going to bring up Denorfia?

flyer85
04-15-2006, 09:41 AM
Calling up a near-26 year old Denorfia and asking him to play isn't going to stunt his growth in any way, shape, or form. It'll do nothing but help the team.common sense, here? Reds are 7-3, start printing the playoff tickets.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 09:43 AM
Fine call him up and let him turn into Wily Mo Pena and rot on the bench. Griffey missed 2 game, don't act like he has missed a week.a strawman, the comparison is apples and oranges and holds no water at all.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 09:44 AM
JR can't be counted on to play a lot, he misses A LOT of games every year, why not use those at bats on the young kid?better yet use them on a player who is ready for the majors and is going to perform better than the current flotsam.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 09:48 AM
:confused:

Everybody expected the '06 Reds to be better than their 7-3 record, right?

That offense is so riddled with holes it's amazing they pushed a run across Friday night.

When results aren't enough, what can appease the critics?


from Rob Neyer


The Reds did one thing right this spring: They finally committed themselves to playing Austin Kearns in right field every day. It should have happened a year or so ago, but better late than never. Anyway, that was the old general manager, and there's a new sheriff in town.

Problem is, the new sheriff ain't exactly Cleavon Little in Blazing Saddles. When Wayne Krivsky took over as Reds general manager, he inherited a team that scored more runs in 2005 than any other National League team. That's not likely to happen again. But with a couple of tweaks and a little bit of luck, the Reds figure to feature one of the league's top hitting attacks again.

Keep Freel at second base, move Adam Dunn to first base, send young Chris Denorfia to left field, and watch the numbers pile up on the scoreboard. Any baseball fan with a functioning cortex and a passing familiarity with Bill James would have passed this test.

Krivsky failed. He signed Scott Hatteberg after having inherited Womack -- both of whom essentially washed out of the American League last year -- and actually gave them everyday jobs, which pushed Freel to a utility role, Dunn to left field, and Denorfia to the bench. There are only eight non-pitching jobs in the lineup. It's pretty hard to screw up three of them within a few months. Yet Krivsky seems to have managed exactly that. It's early, and maybe he's a quick study. But if this is really the way things are going to be, I wouldn't want to be a Reds fan for the next few years.

Falls City Beer
04-15-2006, 10:26 AM
Womack and Hatteberg represent very, very small problems. They really do. This team will be a top three offense with or without them.

This team really has only one legitimate concern.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 10:36 AM
This team really has only one legitimate concern.
Two, team defense is currently atrocious, let's hope it improves.

While most folks would prefer that Denorfia ride the pine or get some starting time when Jr. is down, chances are good that they want to use him in that capacity or as part of trade in the near future, but in the meantime they're scoping out what path they'll be taking. While they play the smaller OF's of Wrigley and the GAB it should matter less, especially if Griffey comes back quicker that expected.

7-3 is a small sample size just like 25 at bats is, as long as the Reds continue on the current path hand wringing over the end of the bench will probably be the least of their worries.

But as usual it will be on the top of the the to-do list here at RZ.

Crash Davis
04-15-2006, 10:52 AM
The expectation of continued positive long-term results created by an optimized MLB roster.

Next time that happens, it'll be the first time.

So you think Krivsky is looking "clueless" as well?

Crash Davis
04-15-2006, 10:53 AM
from Rob Neyer

I've been reading Rob Neyer for years. And, frankly, I prefer to do my own thinking.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 12:07 PM
I've been reading Rob Neyer for years. And, frankly, I prefer to do my own thinking.of course you could make an argument as to why to he is wrong.

The day WMP was traded I suggested Denorfia should become an everyday player and Dunn stay at 1st.

Is anyone willing to make an argument that Freel should not be the everyday 2b? If so, I'm all ears to hear the reasoning and see the data.

SteelSD
04-15-2006, 01:41 PM
So you think Krivsky is looking "clueless" as well?

The worst starting positional players in MLB from 2005 have starting jobs on the right side of the Reds infield the majority of the time. Neither player does anything to help the offense versus an optimized configuration nor do the Reds gain a defensive advantage at any position as long as they're on the field. Those issues will, over the long haul, lead to Runs Scored and Runs Allowed bleed.

And let's be clear- the Reds will not score 988 Runs this season (6.1 RPG- their current "pace") with the current offensive player strategy. The real kicker is that the better offensive roster options (Freel, Denorfia) also better optimize the defense at two positions (2B, LF) while we'd see a push (at worst) at a third (1B).

While the Reds' 7-3 record may appear at first glace to be evidence of a successful plan, we need to ask ourselves whether or not the Reds can continue to expect success under said "plan".

Unfortunately, the answer is "no" because, while the Reds are succeeding, they're succeeding "badly". The offense cannot continue at its current pace (6.1 RPG) while the pitching and defense is much closer to a more likely number (5.6 Runs Allowed per Game). The Reds offense is going to have a difficult time hitting the 800 RS mark while giving so many PA to Womack and Hatteberg. They're going to have a difficult time allowing fewer than 800 given the current state of the pitching staff and defensive configuration. When you're in that situation, optimizing the MLB roster does nothing but help.

Is Krivsky "clueless" in the macro sense? I'm not ready to claim that. But he's shown no ability thusfar to optimize the offensive and defensive configuration of his roster when faced with slam-dunk-easy choices. In short, he's had "better" staring him straight in the face but decided on "worse" instead. That's everything but smart. Ten games in April doesn't change that.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 01:46 PM
Steel, you're just a party pooper.:laugh:

The world looks great through red colored glasses.

Falls City Beer
04-15-2006, 02:07 PM
Two, team defense is currently atrocious, let's hope it improves.

While most folks would prefer that Denorfia ride the pine or get some starting time when Jr. is down, chances are good that they want to use him in that capacity or as part of trade in the near future, but in the meantime they're scoping out what path they'll be taking. While they play the smaller OF's of Wrigley and the GAB it should matter less, especially if Griffey comes back quicker that expected.

7-3 is a small sample size just like 25 at bats is, as long as the Reds continue on the current path hand wringing over the end of the bench will probably be the least of their worries.

But as usual it will be on the top of the the to-do list here at RZ.


I agree that the defense is far from ideal. But I also think that early season glaring flubbed plays tend to focus a great deal more attention on the defense than is probably warranted. The only real spot where the Reds are egregiously deficient is CF, and, well, complaining about Griffey not moving, to me, is the height of futility. The best that one can hope in that instance is for Griffey to get hurt and that's stupid because his stick more than makes up for his defensive shortcomings.

I actually think the defense on the infield is standard, not great, but sufficient.

Plus, I think that as the pitching improves, and fewer balls are put in play, so too the defense "improves."

To me, complaining about Hatteberg's presence is somewhat legitimate, but mildly missing the point.

IslandRed
04-15-2006, 04:46 PM
I think we have to be careful when allocating demerits and remember that some of this traces back to Narron. Krivsky said he's not the type to micromanage the manager, so we ought to consider whether a specific beef is with who's on the 25-man or how the 25-man is being used.

And I still don't know exactly whose idea it was for Dunn to go back to LF.

LoganBuck
04-15-2006, 11:05 PM
Can we please change the title of this thread. I keep reading it as Quinton McCrackenhand!

Crash Davis
04-16-2006, 12:34 AM
The worst starting positional players in MLB from 2005 have starting jobs on the right side of the Reds infield the majority of the time. Neither player does anything to help the offense versus an optimized configuration nor do the Reds gain a defensive advantage at any position as long as they're on the field. Those issues will, over the long haul, lead to Runs Scored and Runs Allowed bleed.

And let's be clear- the Reds will not score 988 Runs this season (6.1 RPG- their current "pace") with the current offensive player strategy. The real kicker is that the better offensive roster options (Freel, Denorfia) also better optimize the defense at two positions (2B, LF) while we'd see a push (at worst) at a third (1B).

While the Reds' 7-3 record may appear at first glace to be evidence of a successful plan, we need to ask ourselves whether or not the Reds can continue to expect success under said "plan".

Unfortunately, the answer is "no" because, while the Reds are succeeding, they're succeeding "badly". The offense cannot continue at its current pace (6.1 RPG) while the pitching and defense is much closer to a more likely number (5.6 Runs Allowed per Game). The Reds offense is going to have a difficult time hitting the 800 RS mark while giving so many PA to Womack and Hatteberg. They're going to have a difficult time allowing fewer than 800 given the current state of the pitching staff and defensive configuration. When you're in that situation, optimizing the MLB roster does nothing but help.

Is Krivsky "clueless" in the macro sense? I'm not ready to claim that. But he's shown no ability thusfar to optimize the offensive and defensive configuration of his roster when faced with slam-dunk-easy choices. In short, he's had "better" staring him straight in the face but decided on "worse" instead. That's everything but smart. Ten games in April doesn't change that.

Well said. I think Krivsky's situation is more complex than you're making it out to be, but you laid out some sound reasoning for doing things differently.

In Krivsky's defense, I would say the following:

- The Reds scouts and coaches truly believe Dunn isn't ready for 1B defensively (as in, significantly worse than LF).

- Womack was O'Brien's mistake. I don't think "cutting him" is as simplistic as redszone makes it out to be. He's due a sizable chunk of money. He has some uses on a team if employed correctly. It's not really a sign of a classy organization to trade for a veteran, tell him he has a legit shot to start at 2B, then turn around and cut him before he's had a chance to fumble away his opportunity.

- As long as we're quoting Rob Neyer & his ilk re: Hatteberg

To the Oakland A's front office, Hatteberg was a deeply satisfying scientific discovery. The things he did so peculiarly well at the plate were the things only science -- at any rate, closer than normal scrutiny -- could turn up. He was, in his approach to hitting, Billy Beane's opposite, but he was also Billy Beane's creation ...
-- Michael Lewis, Moneyball

Rob Neyer & Billy Beane


"First," Beane says, "we're not looking at just a three-month period, we're looking at a two- or three-year period when we're evaluating Hatteberg. And we're also looking at who will become available, and what will be the cost of this player or that player. And if you're talking about free agents, you have to factor in the age of those free agents, and who could potentially be a non-tender."

This wasn't really going anywhere, so I tried to hurry the conversation along.

"So," says me, "you look at all the players out there who could play first base, and you have an Excel file, or whatever (assistant GM Paul) DePodesta uses, and you plug in how many runs they're going to save on defense, how many runs they're going to add with their baserunning and their hitting, and you're factoring in how many pitches they take ... all that stuff? And you figure nobody better than Hatteberg will be available for less than what you're going to pay him?"

"But let me get subjective for a minute," Beane continues. "Scott deserves this, because he's a major part of the fabric of this team, from a subjective standpoint."

And does he get a little bit of extra credit for being a known quantity (and, just maybe, for being one of the supporting characters in a certain best-selling book)?

"Yeah, he has to. He gets extra credit for what he means to this team, to the players and the people around him."

The bottom line, for Billy Beane and the people who work for him?

"We have our reasons."

Hopefully, it will all work out in the end. I'd like to see Denorfia in CF, Griffey happily accepting LF, Freel leading off at 2B and Dunn playing at least average defense at 1B. But I realize there are some complications in all of these scenarios. I wish it was easier.

flyer85
04-16-2006, 01:07 AM
Dunn ain't never getting better at 1B by playing LF. Today with Pujols the Reds got first hand evidence how quickly someone with some athleticism can adjust to a new position if allowed to stay there. In two seasons he has gone from barely adequate to quite good. There is zero reason to believe that Dunn wouldn't make a similar transition.

SteelSD
04-16-2006, 01:12 AM
Well said. I think Krivsky's situation is more complex than you're making it out to be, but you laid out some sound reasoning for doing things differently.

In Krivsky's defense, I would say the following:

- The Reds scouts and coaches truly believe Dunn isn't ready for 1B defensively (as in, significantly worse than LF).

- Womack was O'Brien's mistake. I don't think "cutting him" is as simplistic as redszone makes it out to be. He's due a sizable chunk of money. He has some uses on a team if employed correctly. It's not really a sign of a classy organization to trade for a veteran, tell him he has a legit shot to start at 2B, then turn around and cut him before he's had a chance to fumble away his opportunity.

If Reds scouts think that Scott Hatteberg is a better option at 1B defensively versus Adam Dunn, then Wayne Krivsky has some termination papers to write up. Frankly, considering that Jerry Narron thinks that the best possible alignment includes the two worst players at their respective positions, another notice of termination should be in the pipeline.


- As long as we're quoting Rob Neyer & his ilk re: Hatteberg

Not sure how a 'Moneyball' quote applies a few years later considering that Billy Beane ridded himself of Hatteberg (a move Neyer rightly backs) after last season. He's not the same player. That was obvious last season. I'd also like to see the time frame of the second quote you posted.


Hopefully, it will all work out in the end. I'd like to see Denorfia in CF, Griffey happily accepting LF, Freel leading off at 2B and Dunn playing at least average defense at 1B. But I realize there are some complications in all of these scenarios. I wish it was easier.

The only complications are those imposed by the person (Krivsky) responsible for the roster configuration. Womack could have very easily been released- particularly considering the cash Krivsky has spent on players like Quinton McCracken and Scott Hatteberg as they represent the actual cost of one Tony Womack. Again, Krivsky had the right answers staring him in the face and he chose to go with a sub-optimal offensive and defensive configuration.

Those scenarios were only complicated by Krivsky's inability to determine right from wrong. Again, I'm not going to call "idiot" on a guy who still may have the ability to right the wrongs he created, but not being smart from the get-go isn't going to earn Krivsky any points from this poster.

Nugget
04-16-2006, 08:09 AM
I don't see how Womack is represented in Hatterberg or McCracken. Womack is a middle infielder and Hatterberg and McCracken are respectively a 1B and OF. Yes releasing Womack would clear up some issues for REDSZONE but then you would still be signing Hatterberg and McCracken and maybe have both Kata and Phillips.

McCracken was given the call up as many thought he would once he was healthy. The main reason why Abad was brought north was that he could be released without too many problems. Also he can play all outfield positions so rather than shuffling in the outfield if he comes on it will be a straight replacement.

savafan
04-16-2006, 06:58 PM
Dunn ain't never getting better at 1B by playing LF. Today with Pujols the Reds got first hand evidence how quickly someone with some athleticism can adjust to a new position if allowed to stay there. In two seasons he has gone from barely adequate to quite good. There is zero reason to believe that Dunn wouldn't make a similar transition.

The Reds organization likes to drag its feet on these type of moves though, and then doesn't stick with them long enough after they make them. It has been that way for as long as I can remember.

KronoRed
04-16-2006, 09:06 PM
So Dunn to 1st in 2020?

flyer85
04-16-2006, 09:11 PM
The Reds organization likes to drag its feet on these type of moves though, and then doesn't stick with them long enough after they make them. It has been that way for as long as I can remember.which sortof points to a lack of a long term plan, doesn't it? The only reason they would not want to consider a Dunn to 1b solution is if they are sold that Votto will be ready next year and is going to turn out to be a very good hitter.

traderumor
04-16-2006, 09:13 PM
Dunn already can play an average first base. He filled in fine there the last couple of years. If its because he fussed and doesn't want to play there, shame on the Reds for not telling their player that they will decide who plays what position.

savafan
04-16-2006, 10:48 PM
Dunn already can play an average first base. He filled in fine there the last couple of years. If its because he fussed and doesn't want to play there, shame on the Reds for not telling their player that they will decide who plays what position.

I sure hope it's not another case of the inmates running the asylum. I've got to feel that this is the Reds' doing, and not because Dunn doesn't want to play first.

Soriano doesn't want to play outfield in Washington, but he is. I hope that the Reds front office has as much or more control on these type of decisions than the red headed stepson of MLB.

IslandRed
04-17-2006, 12:24 PM
which sortof points to a lack of a long term plan, doesn't it? The only reason they would not want to consider a Dunn to 1b solution is if they are sold that Votto will be ready next year and is going to turn out to be a very good hitter.

No, I think it's obvious that Krivsky's long-term plan involves Dunn playing left field. He walked in and got that multi-year deal done in, what, less than a week? And shortly thereafter, we stopped hearing about Dunn playing first base. If that's how Kriv sees it, then Dunn's going to stay in left and he'll deal with the short-term roster goofiness in turn. And it's exactly that, short term. The proposed benefits of moving Dunn to first base are based on a roster mix that's likely to be altered by the trade deadline if not sooner. Kearns could be gone, Griffey could be gone, Freel could be gone. And if not at the deadline, then over the offseason.

I don't know who next year's first baseman will be; it could be Griffey if he's not on another club by then, or it could be someone in another organization right now. It's just one more item on a long checklist, and first basemen are as easily found as left fielders.

flyer85
04-17-2006, 12:37 PM
Kearns could be gone, Griffey could be gone, Freel could be gone. And if not at the deadline, then over the offseason.
They better get some OFs back because outside of Denorfia the system is barren above low A ball.

RedsManRick
04-17-2006, 12:58 PM
Griffey at 1B and Denorfia or Freel in CF just makes way too much sense. Dunn would be tolerable in LF if we had a CF with good range. Narron mentioned it a few days ago (Mantle played 1B at the end of his career, but Griffey isn't at the end of his career...), but I'm curious if Junior is really opposed to moving or it's just a situation where nobody wants to disprespect him by asking.

BRM
04-17-2006, 01:00 PM
Griffey at 1B and Denorfia or Freel in CF just makes way too much sense. Dunn would be tolerable in LF if we had a CF with good range.

Yep. The Reds really need to find a very good defensive center fielder to play alongside Dunn if the long-term plan has him playing LF.

Heath
04-17-2006, 01:25 PM
Joey Votto at first base next year would be a wonderful thing - however - unlike LaRussa and Pujois, Narron's not going just to stick him out there every day.

IIRC, Pujois had a very good spring and played one year of three-level minors.

So, then a lineup would have -

Votto-1b
Freel-2b
Lopez-SS
EdE-3B
Dunn-LF
Griffey-CF
Kearns-RF
LaRue-C

Denorfia would still probably play 2-3 games a week.

BRM
04-17-2006, 01:27 PM
Joey Votto at first base next year would be a wonderful thing - however - unlike LaRussa and Pujois, Narron's not going just to stick him out there every day.

IIRC, Pujois had a very good spring and played one year of three-level minors.

So, then a lineup would have -

Votto-1b
Phillips-2b
Lopez-SS
EdE-3B
Dunn-LF
Griffey-CF
Kearns-RF
LaRue-C

That's way too much youth for Narron's tastes.

savafan
04-17-2006, 01:29 PM
That's way too much youth for Narron's tastes.

Narron doesn't have a contract for next year.

Just sayin'.

BRM
04-17-2006, 01:33 PM
Narron doesn't have a contract for next year.

Just sayin'.

Good point. Marty would be beside himself all season watching all those youngsters.

RedsManRick
04-17-2006, 01:42 PM
Good point. Marty would be beside himself all season watching all those youngsters.

Sweet Lou has a great reputation for working with young guys too.....

Heath
04-17-2006, 02:32 PM
Sweet Lou has a great reputation for working with young guys too.....

...but he may not have the patience or desire to baby-sit anymore after the Tampa Bay fiasco.

KronoRed
04-17-2006, 02:59 PM
Lou wants to win now, won't happen here.

KronoRed
04-17-2006, 02:59 PM
Narron doesn't have a contract for next year.

Just sayin'.
He will soon, I don't buy that he's not a Krivsky guy, I think they are more alike then we want to admit.

Gallen5862
04-18-2006, 04:12 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/transactions
Cincinnati Reds Sent outright first baseman-outfielder Andy Abad to Louisville of the International League (AAA).

This is good news. Abad gets a chance to stay in the system and available to be called up later.