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reds44
04-15-2006, 03:55 PM
It was a hanging curve

Fullboat
04-15-2006, 03:55 PM
Thats why we are still in the hunt for a SP.

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 03:56 PM
That list would include the following:

Martinez
Glavine
Zambrano
Prior
Maddux

among others

Cool.

They should probably start filling out resumes then.

pedro
04-15-2006, 03:56 PM
John Garland. John.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 03:56 PM
Valentin grounds out to 1st on a 1-1 pitch. 1 out.

reds44
04-15-2006, 03:57 PM
Ponson sucks

CrackerJack
04-15-2006, 03:57 PM
Ok, I was a decent high school pitcher and I was left handed. I can without a doubt say that my senior year I was better than Dave Williams is today.

79 MPH fastballs? Again, I was decent in my day and I threw 83-85. How was this guy allowed to make the team?

You apparently didn't know how to win, nor did you have a veteran presence on the mound.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 03:57 PM
Still too hittable. Should have pitched him the way he did in the first inning.he should've rolled it up there.

edabbs44
04-15-2006, 03:57 PM
Ok, I was a decent high school pitcher and I was left handed. I can without a doubt say that my senior year I was better than Dave Williams is today.

79 MPH fastballs? Again, I was decent in my day and I threw 83-85. How was this guy allowed to make the team?

Call Krivsky...b/c obviously you have a shot at cracking the rotation.

cincyinco
04-15-2006, 03:57 PM
Uh oh. I think Chris Welsh is drunk. He says Dave Williams has to use his "natural stuff" and that we got him for a reason.

Yeah, that reason is called Sean Casey's contract.

Meanwhile, Sidney Ponson, arguably as bad a pitcher as williams, is 1 hitting the Reds...

:(

westofyou
04-15-2006, 03:57 PM
the tone in this thread regarding Williams is sure different that the Casey trade thread.
Living for the moment here on Redszone, where the game thread has all the rush and the ensuing headache of good nitrous buzz.

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 03:57 PM
OK folks, let's calm down. Williams certainly does not have his best stuff today--he seems kind of flat. And I would definitely consider a quick hook today. But I'm not ready to throw him under the bus. Remember--he's the #5 starter for a reason.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 03:58 PM
Williams grounds out to 1st on a 2-1 pitch. 2 outs.

edabbs44
04-15-2006, 03:58 PM
John Garland. John.

Jon.

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2006, 03:58 PM
the tone in this thread regarding Williams is sure different that the Casey trade thread.

Tone in "Casey Traded" Thread: Man, Dave Williams sucks...is this really all we can get for Casey? Oh well, at least it clears salary and is better than trotting out Paul Wilson every 5th day.

Tone in the Game Thread: Man, Dave Williams sucks...

flyer85
04-15-2006, 03:58 PM
Meanwhile, Sidney Ponson, arguably as bad a pitcher as williams, is 1 hitting the Reds...

:(will he be dumb enough to give Dunn something to hit next time?

Casey_21
04-15-2006, 03:59 PM
Thanks for all the updates for the last few seasons, everyone.. I havent been able to watch games, or listen to them online.. My Windows is acting shady. I'm coming home Sunday though.. FINALLY, via Queen Mary 2. Can't wait to be back in the States. Back to Williams.... 80mph?!?!? What the hell? :cry:

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 03:59 PM
Freel lines a single off Pujols glove

vaticanplum
04-15-2006, 03:59 PM
I would take Jon Garland over Dave Williams six days a week and twice on Sunday.

I keep thinking he was a salary dump, forgetting that he still has, you know, a spot in the starting rotation.

Falls City Beer
04-15-2006, 03:59 PM
Living for the moment here on Redszone, where the game thread has all the rush and the ensuing headache of good nitrous buzz.


I recall very few people had delusions about Williams' ability. Most were like me, glad to get rid of an awful contract.

reds44
04-15-2006, 03:59 PM
FeLo needs to go yard

flyer85
04-15-2006, 03:59 PM
Remember--he's the #5 starter for a reason.because there is nobody else.

NatiRedGals
04-15-2006, 03:59 PM
will he be dumb enough to give Dunn something to hit next time?

Lopez gets on Dunn comes up and he dose we have a game

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:00 PM
Jon.

touche' :)

deltachi8
04-15-2006, 04:00 PM
oh no, we suck again!

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:00 PM
Lopez lines a double to left. 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs.

Tornon
04-15-2006, 04:00 PM
RA gonna be up with the bases loaded?

NatiRedGals
04-15-2006, 04:00 PM
Can Dunn repeat??

CrackerJack
04-15-2006, 04:00 PM
Gotta love Felo, goes the other way, nice hit

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 04:00 PM
Dunn needs to get these runs in here.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:00 PM
I would take Jon Garland over Dave Williams six days a week and twice on Sunday.I wouldn't for $10M a year.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:01 PM
I recall very few people had delusions about Williams' ability. Most were like me, glad to get rid of an awful contract.
Yeppers, I agree.

$5 for a balloon though.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:01 PM
All-star doubles
Freel to 3rd
come on Adam

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 04:02 PM
Dunn chases ball one.

Redeye fly
04-15-2006, 04:02 PM
because there is nobody else.

Homer Bailey:p:

Yes, I'm kidding.

NatiRedGals
04-15-2006, 04:02 PM
THIS Strikezone is ridicouls

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:02 PM
because there is nobody else.

Exactly.

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 04:02 PM
Unreal Dunn. Unreal.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:02 PM
Dunn strikes out swinging on an 0-2 pitch. 5-1 Cards mid 3rd.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:03 PM
what an at bat.

clutch

CrackerJack
04-15-2006, 04:03 PM
Yeesh Dunn K's on 3 pitches

Tornon
04-15-2006, 04:03 PM
Dunn's BA with runners in scoring position drops to .077

cincyinco
04-15-2006, 04:03 PM
C'mon... Matt Belisle could easily be the #5, at least he can throw mid 90's heat.. he's young and has some stuff to learn.. but I think he's a much more viable and better option than Williams.

I wasn't so down on Williams until today, when I learned he tops out at 84mph. Thats pathetic.. even for a lefty.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:03 PM
Dunn's BA with runners in scoring position drops to .077
clutch

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:04 PM
That was a poor approach by Dunn. He had to know he was going to see nothing but offspeed stuff with a base open. Have to be willing to take a walk and leave it to RA.

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:04 PM
no one gets a hit every time up.

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 04:04 PM
Dunn chases ball one in the dirt. Takes strike 2 belt high right over the plate and then chases a ball that bounced in front of the plate.

I love Dunn, but I'm starting to see why fans get frustrated. That atbat was embarrassing. He's an automatic out with runners on this year.

M2
04-15-2006, 04:04 PM
the tone in this thread regarding Williams is sure different that the Casey trade thread.

I was thinking the same. I was baffled by the love for Williams that day and now hopefully folks see why.

I can't imagine how anyone, numbers cruncher or seamhead, would see anything to like in Williams.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:04 PM
C'mon... Matt Belisle could easily be the #5, at least he can throw mid 90's heat.. he's young and has some stuff to learn.. but I think he's a much more viable and better option than Williams.

I wasn't so down on Williams until today, when I learned he tops out at 84mph.
I would take the Lizard over Williams.


High 70's heat doesn't cut it unless you have a knuckleball mixed in with it.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:05 PM
Molina flies out to center. 1 out.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:05 PM
no one gets a hit every time up.
Got $5?

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:05 PM
Dunn chases ball one in the dirt. Takes strike 2 belt high right over the plate and then chases a ball that bounced in front of the plate.Pitch two was a back door slider painted on the corner. He got nothing to hit and got himself out.

Falls City Beer
04-15-2006, 04:05 PM
Without Dunn, this game is a shutout through 3.

With Williams, the Reds are down by 5 through the same number of innings.

Leave Dunn alone.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:06 PM
Unbelievable. Luna homers to left. 6-1 Cards.

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 04:06 PM
:bowrofl:

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2006, 04:06 PM
That was a poor approach by Dunn. He had to know he was going to see nothing but offspeed stuff with a base open. Have to be willing to take a walk and leave it to RA.

The beauty of lineup construction -- Ponson has no reason to throw Dunn a pitch to hit in that situation, because there's nothing that frightens him sitting in the on deck circle.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:06 PM
unbelieveable

he is so terrible.

Hector FREAKING Luna

NC Reds
04-15-2006, 04:06 PM
I would rather bring back Josh Hall then see Williams pitch again.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:06 PM
Unbelievable. Luna homers to left. 6-1 Cards.I would say predictable. He has nothing to get a major league hitter out.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:06 PM
Luna Launches Long One Lots of Love Lauded on Luna BY Lovable Long Time Fans.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:07 PM
Without Dunn, this game is a shutout through 3.

With Williams, the Reds are down by 5 through the same number of innings.

Leave Dunn alone.
That at bat was just another example of why I would take Felipe over him every day of the week.

MWM
04-15-2006, 04:07 PM
When Adam Dunn comes to bat in those situations, he swings at pitches he never swings at any other time. It's been like this all season. When he's got guys on second or third, he becomes a hacker. It doesn't work for Adam. I wonder if he's just pressing all by himself or if someone's been telling him he needs to try to make contact in those situations rather than to take his normal patient approach.

Fullboat
04-15-2006, 04:07 PM
Uncle.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:07 PM
Schumaker strikes out and Ponson pops out. 6-1 Cards after 3.

Falls City Beer
04-15-2006, 04:07 PM
That at bat was just another example of why I would take Felipe over him every day of the week.

I hate to be rude, but:

:rolleyes:

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:07 PM
1st inning-3
second-2
3rd-1
4th- 0???

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:08 PM
That at bat was just another example of why I would take Felipe over him every day of the week.
Because he never fails in a pressure situation.

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:08 PM
well it looks like Dunn is doing what all the naysayers want... swing more with men on base. working out well isn't it?

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 04:08 PM
When Adam Dunn comes to bat in those situations, he swings at pitches he never swings at any other time. It's been like this all season. When he's got guys on second or third, he becomes a hacker. It doesn't work for Adam. I wonder if he's just pressing all by himself or if someone's been telling him he needs to try to make contact in those situations rather than to take his normal patient approach.

Good post.

I said the same thing a little while ago in another thread, you just said it better. He looks absolutely horrible with runners on this year. He turns into Reggie Taylor as soon as a batter reaches base.

marcshoe
04-15-2006, 04:08 PM
Welsh even just admitted that Williams isn't very good. Last inning he was saying that it wasn't that Williams didn't have good stuff, only that he wasn't making good pitches.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:09 PM
I hate to be rude, but:

:rolleyes:
.077 BA with runners in scoring position.

Homers and RBI's are sexy, but when it comes to clutch hits and defense, Adam Dunn is terrible.

He is a good player that I think we need to keep, but he is no Felipe Lopez.

vaticanplum
04-15-2006, 04:09 PM
Luna Launches Long One Lots of Love Lauded on Luna BY Lovable Long Time Fans.

Wow

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:09 PM
C'mon... Matt Belisle could easily be the #5, at least he can throw mid 90's heat.. he's young and has some stuff to learn.. but I think he's a much more viable and better option than Williams.

I wasn't so down on Williams until today, when I learned he tops out at 84mph.

I agree about Belisle, and I think that his future should be as a starter.

I don't know much about Williams, so I don't know if that is how hard he normally throws, or if today is unusual. Also, are we sure that the gun is accurate? Is he throwing fastballs at all? It looks like maybe he is just going with off-speed stuff. He was leaving the fastball up in the first inning, so maybe he scrapped it, since he couldn't get a feel for it. Of course, that is a bad sign whenever a pitcher can't get a feel for his fastball, but like I said, he just doesn't have it today.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:09 PM
well it looks like Dunn is doing what all the naysayers want... swing more with men on base. working out well isn't it?
I never said he needs to swing more.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:10 PM
Aurilia leads off with a double to the left field corner.

CrackerJack
04-15-2006, 04:10 PM
Dunn K's a lot and that's fine, but he clearly should've been more patient in that at-bat/situation. That's all.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:10 PM
RA doubles

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:11 PM
It was less than 3..
All about the little victories.

NatiRedGals
04-15-2006, 04:11 PM
When Adam Dunn comes to bat in those situations, he swings at pitches he never swings at any other time. It's been like this all season. When he's got guys on second or third, he becomes a hacker. It doesn't work for Adam. I wonder if he's just pressing all by himself or if someone's been telling him he needs to try to make contact in those situations rather than to take his normal patient approach.

I argee with this because theres no way Dunn can go from the sweet hitter we know but when hes in the clutch hes golfing trying to reach the green??:devil:

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:11 PM
He is a good player that I think we need to keep, but he is no Felipe Lopez.He is taller, his voice is deeper too.

Pass that though... you're holding it way too long

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:11 PM
Dear whoever is telling Dunn to swing more with runners on,

SHUSH UP

Love,Krono

:D

Falls City Beer
04-15-2006, 04:11 PM
Dunn K's a lot and that's fine, but he clearly should've been more patient in that at-bat/situation. That's all.


Great. It's one at-bat. And like I said, without Dunn it's all goose-eggs on the board for the Reds.

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2006, 04:11 PM
I officially propose that Matt Belisle should be referred to as "The Wolf" -- since it always seems like he has to come in and clean things up when the starter makes a mess of things.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:12 PM
He is taller, his voice is deeper too.

Pass that though... you're holding it way too long
:confused:

Tornon
04-15-2006, 04:12 PM
Ponson clearly afraid of Scotty's bat

NatiRedGals
04-15-2006, 04:12 PM
is something cooking hah stupid annoucers lol

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:12 PM
Hatteberg walks on 4 pitches. 1st and 2nd with no outs.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:12 PM
Ball 4.

Let's go EE!!!!

edabbs44
04-15-2006, 04:13 PM
.077 BA with runners in scoring position.

Homers and RBI's are sexy, but when it comes to clutch hits and defense, Adam Dunn is terrible.

He is a good player that I think we need to keep, but he is no Felipe Lopez.

Maybe Boone wasn't an idiot when he wanted him to hit leadoff.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:13 PM
Dunn K's a lot and that's fine, but he clearly should've been more patient in that at-bat/situation. That's all.it was a poor approach. He has clearly been less patient this year with runners on. What is also clear is that is doesn't work for him. Sometimes you have to take a walk.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:13 PM
Someone said it the other day, Hatte just needs to go up there without a bat

NatiRedGals
04-15-2006, 04:13 PM
wow he wanted that pitch Matts loosening up

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:13 PM
.077 BA with runners in scoring position.

Homers and RBI's are sexy, but when it comes to clutch hits and defense, Adam Dunn is terrible.

He is a good player that I think we need to keep, but he is no Felipe Lopez.


stop it now. you're making yourself look silly. you obviously have no clue about sample sizes.

Last year Dunn's OPS with runners on base was .997, Lopez' was 855.

M2
04-15-2006, 04:13 PM
Ponson will do his best to help put the Reds back into this game, though I think it might take 10 to win this afternoon.

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:14 PM
The Nature Boy Rich Aurilia doubles!!! WOOOOOO!!!!!
"BB King" Scott Hatteberg walks!
EZ-E grounds into a 6-4-3 DP :(

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 04:14 PM
Encarnacion GIDP.

The offense all of a sudden stinks.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:14 PM
Encarnacion grounds into a 6-4-3 double play. 2 outs.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:14 PM
poop

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:15 PM
stop it now. you're making yourself look silly.
http://www.rareads.com/scans/4783.jpg

M2
04-15-2006, 04:15 PM
When Adam Dunn comes to bat in those situations, he swings at pitches he never swings at any other time. It's been like this all season. When he's got guys on second or third, he becomes a hacker. It doesn't work for Adam. I wonder if he's just pressing all by himself or if someone's been telling him he needs to try to make contact in those situations rather than to take his normal patient approach.

This would seem to be the case. Hopefully Chambliss gets him back to swinging at his pitch in ALL situations.

MWM
04-15-2006, 04:16 PM
This is where a required reading on BA w/ RISP would come in handy for newcomers to the forum so we don't have to rehash that entire argument all over again.

Walkerforpres
04-15-2006, 04:16 PM
I officially propose that Matt Belisle should be referred to as "The Wolf" -- since it always seems like he has to come in and clean things up when the starter makes a mess of things.

Should we petition a little Duran Duran whenever Belisle perpetually marches onto the field in the 4th inning?

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2006, 04:16 PM
Encarnacion GIDP.

The offense all of a sudden stinks.

I don't worry, just because this kind of offense isn't one that needs a run here and run there to compete. This is the kind of offense that takes a walk, hits a double, then goes yard to suddenly put a 3 spot on the scoreboard.

You can't look at them in the frame of an inning or 2 -- sample size is just too small to appreciate the strenght.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:17 PM
That wasn't a swing!!!


BOOOOO

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 04:17 PM
Kearns chases ball four in the dirt. Wow.

MWM
04-15-2006, 04:17 PM
Encarnacion GIDP.

The offense all of a sudden stinks.

Ebbs and flows. It's a long season. The offesne is fine. It's impossible to core 8 runs a game all year. This won't be the last stretch where they score very little over a few games.

i think they miss Junior as well.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:17 PM
Kearns strikes out swinging on a 3-2 pitch. 6-1 Cards mid 4th.

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:17 PM
well this is fun

reds44
04-15-2006, 04:18 PM
We miss Junior more then one might think.

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:18 PM
Should we petition a little Duran Duran whenever Belisle perpetually marches onto the field in the 4th inning?

No, we need Dick Dale's "Miserlou".

Redeye fly
04-15-2006, 04:18 PM
Without Dunn, this game is a shutout through 3.

With Williams, the Reds are down by 5 through the same number of innings.

Leave Dunn alone.

And the difference between losing 6-0 and losing 6-1 is what? Style or manhood points because we're not being shutout?

In all seriousness, I'm not jumping on Dunn. Obviously the problem today is Dave Williams.

But I can see both sides in this. I love Dunn, and I think pretty much everyone does. The frustration factor comes in with the potential he brings every time he steps up to the plate. Yes, he's not going to hit a home run every time up. But when runners get on base and we have a chance to get them in and cut into a lead it's disappointing to see a strike out, especially a 3 pitch strikeout swinging at a bad ball.

One reason I've never really understood the strikeouts don't hurt you argument. Not picking on Dunn, because every hitter will strike out... but I remember thinking a time or two last night if Dunn hadn't struck out but put the ball in play to get runners over and/or in, it may have potentially been another run or two. I guess I'm a little old school on that point, thinking that if the ball is put in play, anything can happen... although the majority of the time it's still going to be an out.

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:18 PM
some of you people need to calm down a little IMO.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:19 PM
Kearns strikes out swinging on a 3-2 pitch. 6-1 Cards mid 4th.that was ball four. Reds have been helping Ponson out by chasing.

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:19 PM
at least if there are any sharp objects around.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:19 PM
Belisle in to pitch.

Falls City Beer
04-15-2006, 04:20 PM
I got to be honest with you, I'm watching the game on mlb.tv, and Ponson really looks pretty good. He's a bit wild, but he's got great deceiving bite on his breaking pitches. Williams looks like the worst pitcher I've ever seen by contrast however.

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 04:20 PM
I've got to turn this one off. This team frustrates the hell out of me sometimes.

If there is one thing I can't take, is striking out on horrible pitches. I don't mind caught looking strikouts or strikeouts on good pitches, but I just can't stand to watch hitters stand up there and swing at bad pitch after bad pitch, especially against a AAAA player like Sidney Ponson.

Falls City Beer
04-15-2006, 04:21 PM
In all seriousness, I'm not jumping on Dunn. Obviously the problem today is Dave Williams.



You could've stopped there.

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2006, 04:21 PM
I got to be honest with you, I'm watching the game on mlb.tv, and Ponson really looks pretty good. He's a bit wild, but he's got great deceiving bite on his breaking pitches. Williams looks like the worst pitcher I've ever seen by contrast however.

Did your cable just happen to cut out on every start that Jeff Austin made in 2004? :evil:

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:21 PM
Eckstein flies out to right on a 2-2 pitch. 1 out.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:21 PM
I got to be honest with you, I'm watching the game on mlb.tv, and Ponson really looks pretty good. He's a bit wild, but he's got great deceiving bite on his breaking pitches. Williams looks like the worst pitcher I've ever seen by contrast however.I agree about Williams but the Reds have been helping Ponson out by not being as patient as they have shown themselves to be up to this point.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:21 PM
some of you people need to calm down a little IMO.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/04/20/summit.americas.02/link.flower.jpg

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:22 PM
Taguchi grounds out to 2nd. 2 outs.

CrackerJack
04-15-2006, 04:22 PM
Yes Ponson does look good today frankly. It's not just the Reds' quiet bats.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:22 PM
You could've stopped there.
Nah, Dunn should've hit a 6 run HR his last time up.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:22 PM
Pujols lines a double to right center.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:23 PM
This why we have 12 pitchers :help:

vaticanplum
04-15-2006, 04:23 PM
I got to be honest with you, I'm watching the game on mlb.tv, and Ponson really looks pretty good. He's a bit wild, but he's got great deceiving bite on his breaking pitches. Williams looks like the worst pitcher I've ever seen by contrast however.

There's been a tendency to forget this given the magnitude of his recent troubles, but Ponson is by no means an inherently bad pitcher. In the right environment I have always thought he could still be downright fierce; he's unlikely to get there full-time at this point, but with the talent he has he's bound to have a good day once in a while.

PuffyPig
04-15-2006, 04:24 PM
I've got to turn this one off.

:beerme:

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:24 PM
Pujols lines a double to right center.

I really don't like that guy.

MWM
04-15-2006, 04:24 PM
Albert Pujols, assuming he continues for another 5-8 years what he's done to this point, will have to go down as one of the top 5 offensive players of all time. He's just a freak.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:25 PM
Rolen walks. 1st and 2nd with 2 outs.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:25 PM
He's just a freak.

Todd Brownings favorite player.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:25 PM
Ponson has always had good stuff, just questionable command.

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 04:25 PM
:beerme:

:beerme:

NatiRedGals
04-15-2006, 04:25 PM
Will someone clue me in on this guys strikezone ! :) :beerme:

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:25 PM
J. Encarnacion grounds out to 2nd. 6-1 Cards after 4.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:26 PM
I really don't like that guy.just the best hitter in baseball(and it's not close).

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:26 PM
:beerme:
:beerme:



(everybody else is doing it)

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:27 PM
just the best hitter in baseball(and it's not close).

Doesn't mean I have to like him.

M2
04-15-2006, 04:27 PM
I got to be honest with you, I'm watching the game on mlb.tv, and Ponson really looks pretty good. He's a bit wild, but he's got great deceiving bite on his breaking pitches. Williams looks like the worst pitcher I've ever seen by contrast however.

Of all the things I hate about LaRussa, the biggest is that he takes guys who looked to be toast and turns them into players. He does it with both pitchers and players. Drives me nuts.

To give the devil his due, I wish the Reds had coaching like that, but it's so annoying when a LaRussa team can pick up a guy like Sidney Ponson, who'd be a disaster almost anywhere else, and make him a plus pitcher.

OTOH, it doesn't look like LaRussa's going to be able to drag anything out of Juan Encarnacion.

Red Stocking
04-15-2006, 04:27 PM
Through 4...

Cardinals 6, 2005 Reds 1

The Baumer
04-15-2006, 04:27 PM
Has Ponson swallowed Kirk Rueter? He seems to have acquired his potent pitching skills.

edabbs44
04-15-2006, 04:27 PM
J. Encarnacion grounds out to 2nd. 6-1 Cards after 4.

Again, JE doing his best to keep us in the game.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:27 PM
but with the talent he has he's bound to have a good day once in a while.

And that folks is the crutch of baseball, it's not OJ Mayo dominating over a bunch of sub standard HS players, it's not OSU whipping up on Indiana, it's the best of the world and any day they can look like gods or dogs.

Once you grasp that you will be free.

Redeye fly
04-15-2006, 04:27 PM
You could've stopped there.

Yeah, I could have and it would have been very accurate, concise and acceptable. But the thing is if Dunn continues to press and swing at bad pitchers with runners on base then there's times during the season that he could be one of the chief problems.

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2006, 04:28 PM
:beerme:



(everybody else is doing it)

Because inebriation is the only thing that makes listening to Dave Williams pitch bearable.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:28 PM
Again, JE doing his best to keep us in the game.I am sure Rolen is happy to have Juan batting behind him

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:29 PM
Val grounds out

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:29 PM
Valentin grounds out to 2nd. 1 out.

WMR
04-15-2006, 04:29 PM
When Adam Dunn comes to bat in those situations, he swings at pitches he never swings at any other time. It's been like this all season. When he's got guys on second or third, he becomes a hacker. It doesn't work for Adam. I wonder if he's just pressing all by himself or if someone's been telling him he needs to try to make contact in those situations rather than to take his normal patient approach.

Great post. Either all the talk about swinging more and trying for more contact is getting into his head, or someone is actually instructing him to alter his approach... neither are acceptable.

edabbs44
04-15-2006, 04:29 PM
I thought LaRue was going to be trade bait, but now I am dying to get him back.

vaticanplum
04-15-2006, 04:30 PM
You guys have literally just made me break out a beer. Thanks, I'll send you the bills when I get cirrhosis.

membengal
04-15-2006, 04:30 PM
I am left to puzzle this...

WHY does Mike Shannon pronouce Belisle as "Beliz"?

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:30 PM
Belisle strikes out looking. 2 outs.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:30 PM
You guys have literally just made me break out a beer. Thanks, I'll send you the bills when I get cirrhosis.
/\ True Fan

:D

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:31 PM
Freel flies out to center. 6-1 Cards mid 5th.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:32 PM
The part people never seem to grasp is power hitters get pitched differently than everyone else. Freel comes up and they pump him fastballs because they don't want to walk him. When you are a power hitter you are constantly worked and pitched around. Some guys like Pujols still can have success when they expand the zone. Dunn is not one of those hitters and he needs to give up trying to be one.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:34 PM
Molina flies out to Dunn on the warning track. 1 out.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:34 PM
Nice play Dunn

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:34 PM
George, Adam wasn't looking up at the wall, he was looking up at the ball!

M2
04-15-2006, 04:34 PM
The part people never seem to grasp is power hitters get pitched differently than everyone else. Freel comes up and they pump him fastballs because they don't want to walk. When you are a power hitter you are constantly worked and pitched around. Some guys like Pujols still can have success when they expand the zone. Dunn is not one of those hitters and he needs to give up trying to be one.

What flyer said.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:35 PM
Luna lines out to 2nd. 2 outs.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:35 PM
Belisle is not sharp but that you can still get by if you can throw 90 with some movement.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:36 PM
What flyer said.
Hence why the guy with such a great eye has a high OB% and low BA with RISP by the end of the year. Pitchers will challenge him more with the sacks empty, so he gets more to hit, thus more solo's and a better BA (but usually a lower OB%)

WMR
04-15-2006, 04:37 PM
The part people never seem to grasp is power hitters get pitched differently than everyone else. Freel comes up and they pump him fastballs because they don't want to walk him. When you are a power hitter you are constantly worked and pitched around. Some guys like Pujols still can have success when they expand the zone. Dunn is not one of those hitters and he needs to give up trying to be one.

Not to mention that, IMO, when you start to expand your strike zone in terms of swinging the bat and are unsuccessful at doing so, the umps seem to--perhaps subconsciously?--call more strikes that are actually balls or at least highly questionable...

Dunn gets screwed on the strike zone enough as it is. Expanding his strike zone will only make that worse.

RedsManRick
04-15-2006, 04:38 PM
dear God, somebody in the Cards org needs to tell him how to pronounce Belisle... don't they have interns?

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:38 PM
On to the 6th

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:38 PM
Schumaker flies out to left. Finally a 1-2-3 inning. 6-1 Cards after 5.

GOREDSGO32
04-15-2006, 04:38 PM
Dave Williams ... ugh ... When will Paul Wilson be healthy? He would be better than Williams.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:39 PM
I remember seeing Williams pitched last year and IIRC, his fastball generally sat at 86-88. Am I wrong about that?

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:39 PM
Could Belisle be auditioning for a future start?

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:40 PM
Dave Williams ... ugh ... When will Paul Wilson be healthy? He would be better than Williams.Belisle should be given a chance. Certainly working 1 or 2 days a week out of the pen is not maximizing his ability.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:40 PM
I'd prefer Belisle over Wilson and Williams

edabbs44
04-15-2006, 04:40 PM
I remember seeing Williams pitched last year and IIRC, his fastball generally sat at 86-88. Am I wrong about that?

If that is true, then there are 2 possibilities:

1) He is hurt
2) He has been affected by "testing"

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:42 PM
Lopez fouls out to Rolen. 1 out.

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:43 PM
DID YOU KNOW...?

Jabba "The Hutt" Ponson was knighted by Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands?

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:43 PM
Dunn flies out

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:43 PM
Dunn flies out to the warning track in right. 2 outs.

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:43 PM
marty picking on dunn again.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:43 PM
DID YOU KNOW...?

Jabba "The Hutt" Ponson was knighted by Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands?
http://www.starwars.jp/character/image/jabba_2.jpg

M2
04-15-2006, 04:43 PM
If that is true, then there are 2 possibilities:

1) He is hurt
2) He has been affected by "testing"

Infrequent work early in the season might also have him out of whack. Though I've often thought estimations that Williams works in the high '80s to be exceedingly generous. It's not uncommon for him to toss pure soup.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:44 PM
marty picking on dunn again.
It must make him happy.

GOREDSGO32
04-15-2006, 04:44 PM
Is Dan Serafini still avaliable? ;)

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2006, 04:44 PM
DID YOU KNOW...?

Jabba "The Hutt" Ponson was knighted by Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands?

Where's Princess Leia when you need her?

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:44 PM
marty picking on dunn again.
That's what you get for listenng. I quit a couple of years ago because of his whining.

MWM
04-15-2006, 04:45 PM
What's he saying, pedro?

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:45 PM
Obviously Marty isn't impressed by Dunn's .997 OPS with runners on base last year.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:45 PM
Aurilia flies out to right. 6-1 Cards mid 6th.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:46 PM
Obviously Marty isn't impressed by Dunn's .997 OPS with runners on base last year.
It's all about bat avg.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:46 PM
What's he saying, pedro?Let me guess, blah, blah, blah, I'm Marty and I am a baseball genius.

Marty is living proof you can watch the game everyday and still not understand what you are seeing and why it is happening.

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:47 PM
What's he saying, pedro?


nothing really. just that dunn is 1 for 13 with RISP and continuing the trend from years past.

Steve mentioned that Dunn doesn't get anything to hit when people were on base but that it was Dunn's job to adjust. That's the kind of idiocy that's driving dunn to swing at crap picthes IMO.

Redeye fly
04-15-2006, 04:47 PM
The part people never seem to grasp is power hitters get pitched differently than everyone else. Freel comes up and they pump him fastballs because they don't want to walk him. When you are a power hitter you are constantly worked and pitched around. Some guys like Pujols still can have success when they expand the zone. Dunn is not one of those hitters and he needs to give up trying to be one.

I agree with what you're saying.

But I think what some of the people who say "leave Dunn alone" don't grasp is for the most part the people criticizing him aren't saying "Adam Dunn sucks".
We all know that at his best and over the course of a year he's going to be an OPS machine. It's just that there are still frustrating flaws that those who criticize him would like to see him improve on. Plus, the one basic commonality here is we're all pretty passionate Reds fans. As passionate Reds fans, every once in a while someone is going to have a reaction or make an emotionally charged statement that someone else is going to disagree with or find a little goofy. It comes with the territory of being a fan.

Now the one thing I can agree with in the leave Adam Dunn alone camp is if he has too many people in his ear giving him advice that it is messing him up.

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2006, 04:47 PM
Amazing how the Reds can hit Carlos Zambrano well twice, and then struggle against the likes of Victor Santos and Sidney Ponson.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:47 PM
marty picking on dunn again.
Marketing
Anything
Reflecting
The
Yecchy

M2
04-15-2006, 04:48 PM
Has Marty got anything pithy to say about Rich Aurilia too?

At the moment he's got a .188/.188/.250 stat line vs. RHPs. I still can't understand why he's hitting cleanup against northpaws.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:48 PM
Ponson walks on 4 pitches.

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:48 PM
:(

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:49 PM
BTW, for those interested Marty spent this spring( I do listen in the spring because you can't follow on the internet) pumping up the improved bullpen that was going to be good.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:49 PM
Eckstein bunts for a base hit as Belisle can't get a grip on the ball.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:49 PM
That's the kind of idiocy that's driving dunn to swing at crap picthes IMO.
I suspect Marty's constant talk about it has filtered back to the coaching staff and they are the ones telling Dunn to swing more with men on.

Because obviously a walk with men on is worthless, a K shows you're trying:help:

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:50 PM
Amazing how the Reds can hit Carlos Zambrano well twice, and then struggle against the likes of Victor Santos and Sidney Ponson.just goes to show that if you have decent stuff that on days you have command you can still be very tough.

edabbs44
04-15-2006, 04:50 PM
This could be a bad inning...

membengal
04-15-2006, 04:50 PM
Has Marty got anything pithy to say about Rich Aurilia too?

At the moment he's got a .188/.188/.250 stat line vs. RHPs. I still can't understand why he's hitting cleanup against northpaws.

I am guessing that answer is a resounding NO...which is why I don't feel like cutting Brennamen any slack for the constant slagging on Dunn. The double standard is breath-taking AND at the same time, illogical. It's unseemly.

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2006, 04:50 PM
Obviously Marty isn't impressed by Dunn's .997 OPS with runners on base last year.

Marty has a deep hatred of stats after being beaten up for his lunch money by a group of decimal points and multiplaction symbols as a child.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:51 PM
Taguchi strikes out on a foul bunt attempt. 1out.

Chip R
04-15-2006, 04:51 PM
Obviously Marty isn't impressed by Dunn's .997 OPS with runners on base last year.

He (Dunn) is not paid to walk in that situation. - Marty

Falls City Beer
04-15-2006, 04:51 PM
You sure don't ever like to see your team fold it up, but Belisle's mediocre pitching is completely academic at this point--this ballgame is over. Ponson's cruising and Williams carved and sealed the sarcophagus.

MWM
04-15-2006, 04:52 PM
It's just that there are still frustrating flaws that those who criticize him would like to see him improve on. Plus, the one basic commonality here is we're all pretty passionate Reds fans. As passionate Reds fans, every once in a while someone is going to have a reaction or make an emotionally charged statement that someone else is going to disagree with or find a little goofy. It comes with the territory of being a fan.

So people are going to complain as long as he has flaws? That's too bad, because Adam Dunn is never going to be Albert Pujols. He's never going to be Barry Bonds or A-Rod. If that's what people expect they're never going to be happy. Dunn isn't the best player in the game. He's a flawed player, but he's still a great offensive force. What he does contribute far outshadows his flaws, which he certainly has. Unfortunately, I think the attempt to "improve" on those things is actually having a counter productive impact on his performance in the very situations he supposedly needs to improve on.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:52 PM
I am guessing that answer is a resounding NO...which is why I don't feel like cutting Brennamen any slack for the constant slagging on Dunn. The double standard is breath-taking AND at the same time, illogical. It's unseemly.Marty said in the spring that Aurilia was the 2nd best player on the team in 2005(Jr was the best). That is an exact quote.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:52 PM
Albert only needs a triple and a single

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:52 PM
Maybe this year they'll cheer us instead of boo us.

Jim Bronson 1961
Pennant Race

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:53 PM
Dear Marty,

Adam Dunn had an OPS of 1.042 with RISP last year. His BA with RISP was .248. His BA for the season was .247.

You don't have a clue.

XOXO

Pedro

cincyinco
04-15-2006, 04:53 PM
You sure don't ever like to see your team fold it up, but Belisle's mediocre pitching is completely academic at this point--this ballgame is over. Ponson's cruising and Williams carved and sealed the sarcophagus.

Mediocre, much better than bad.. :P Williams was flat out awful today.. hope he can get it together..

and i'm not saying that becuase I think he's good or deserves his spot.. but becuase barring any injury, i'm positive narron will throw him out 5 days from now..

GOREDSGO32
04-15-2006, 04:53 PM
Marty's a HOF announcer, I love listening to him, he tells it like it is and doesn't sugarcoat anything. Think, this guy started broadcasting back in the heyday of the Reds, and its been 11 years since he (well all of us) have had a playoff team.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:54 PM
Pujols strikes out looking. 2 outs.

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:54 PM
Marty's a HOF announcer, I love listening to him, he tells it like it is and doesn't sugarcoat anything. Think, this guy started broadcasting back in the heyday of the Reds, and its been 11 years since he (well all of us) have had a playoff team.

that and a nickel will get you nothing.

M2
04-15-2006, 04:55 PM
Rolen must feel like a kid on Christmas morning knowing he's likely to see a strike in this AB.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:55 PM
Marty's a HOF announcer, I love listening to him, he tells it like it is and doesn't sugarcoat anything. Think, this guy started broadcasting back in the heyday of the Reds, and its been 11 years since he (well all of us) have had a playoff team.

No, he tells it like HE thinks it is.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:55 PM
Dunn is what he is. As much as some people whine and complain about what he is not it is not going to change anything. He has flaws as a hitter but they are far outweighed by his good qualities.

Falls City Beer
04-15-2006, 04:55 PM
that and a nickel will get you nothing.


Buhlee dat!

Always trust a man with a monocle.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:55 PM
Vin Scully has been broadcasting for the dodgers since the Eisenhower era, he's seen a lot of bad baseball and has seen 1 playoff team since 96, he hasn't turned mean.

membengal
04-15-2006, 04:55 PM
Dear Marty,

Adam Dunn had an OPS of 1.042 with RISP last year. His BA with RISP was .248. His BA for the season was .247.

You don't have a clue.

XOXO

Pedro

Dear Pedro:

I don't know what OPS is and it makes my head hurt.

I hate you.

Signed,

Marty

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:56 PM
cincyinco,

What is your signature from? It seems familiar.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:56 PM
Marty's a HOF announcer, I love listening to him, he tells it like it is ... which is often biased and almost always uninformed.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 04:56 PM
Rolen grounds into a fielder's choice at short. 6-1 Cards after 6.

westofyou
04-15-2006, 04:56 PM
Vin Scully has been broadcasting for the dodgers since the Eisenhower era, he's seen a lot of bad baseball and has seen 1 playoff team since 96, he hasn't turned mean.
He doesn't have to deal with humidity though.

membengal
04-15-2006, 04:57 PM
Marty's a HOF announcer, I love listening to him, he tells it like it is and doesn't sugarcoat anything. Think, this guy started broadcasting back in the heyday of the Reds, and its been 11 years since he (well all of us) have had a playoff team.

Sigh.

And people wonder why the Brennamen thread is so long on ORG at this point...

"tells it like it is"

...sadly shakes head in Memphis, TN

cincyinco
04-15-2006, 04:57 PM
Pretty solid pitching there by Belisle.. impressed after walking the pitcher, and giving up a bunt single to eckstein, K's taguchi, K's Pujols, and gets Rolen to ground out. I wish Williams had been able to recover in an inning like this..

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:57 PM
Vin Scully has been broadcasting for the dodgers since the Eisenhower era, he's seen a lot of bad baseball and has seen 1 playoff team since 96, he hasn't turned mean.without a doubt. Marty has turned into a curmudgeon.

GOREDSGO32
04-15-2006, 04:58 PM
LOL I've never noticed him being mean .. he gives props where its due when palyers do well, and tells it like it is when they do bad. He's my favorite commentator.

Big Klu
04-15-2006, 04:58 PM
Vin Scully has been broadcasting for the dodgers since the Eisenhower era, he's seen a lot of bad baseball and has seen 1 playoff team since 96, he hasn't turned mean.

Yes, but I listened to Vin last year, and it made me sad, because it seems that he had really slipped. Maybe the two or three games I heard were just bad nights, but it was disappointing.

cincyinco
04-15-2006, 04:58 PM
cincyinco,

What is your signature from? It seems familiar.

The Late, and Great.. Hunter S. Thompson.. Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas..

:beerme:

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2006, 04:58 PM
Good bit of dancing by Belisle -- hate walking the pitcher, but like going after Pujols and getting the K.

I'm pulling for Belisle, but I've no clue what you get when he steps out of the bullpen. Sometimes he's sharp, other times he looks like the usual detritus floating around in there. Consistently inconsistent.

flyer85
04-15-2006, 04:59 PM
I wish Williams had been able to recover in an inning like this..he certainly does not have the stuff and today didn't have any command. Belisle made some sweet pitches to Pujols.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 04:59 PM
Yes, but I listened to Vin last year, and it made me sad, because it seems that he had really slipped. Maybe the two or three games I heard were just bad nights, but it was disappointing.
I'm sure he does have bad games, but I listened to him earlier this year, a dodgers/braves game I enjoyed it, and I loath the dodgers and braves.

pedro
04-15-2006, 04:59 PM
LOL I've never noticed him being mean .. he gives props where its due when palyers do well, and tells it like it is when they do bad. He's my favorite commentator.

Glad you can still enjoy.

M2
04-15-2006, 05:00 PM
Dunn is what he is. As much as some people whine and complain about what he is not it is not going to change anything. He has flaws as a hitter but they are far outweighed by his good qualities.

He's also the Chinese fingertrap of hitters.

Unfortunately the natural reaction of many coaches, fans and the team's main radio announcer is to pull him into expanding his strikezone.

It means Dunn conversations tend to run along skew lines. You've got those, like yourself, whose aim is to work with Dunn talents and enhance them while you've got others trying to reinvent him.

GOREDSGO32
04-15-2006, 05:00 PM
My reputation is down to 4 ... thanks guys, nice to know you take it out on someone when you don't like what they like.

paintmered
04-15-2006, 05:00 PM
Okay EE, time to get us back in this game....

westofyou
04-15-2006, 05:00 PM
and tells it like it is when they do bad.

Which by my summation consists of about 95% of the action.

Joe Nuxhall, former player never rode the players as much as Marty... could it be because he knows how hard it is?

Falls City Beer
04-15-2006, 05:00 PM
Reds' hitters really aren't getting very good swings on Ponson at all--from either side of the plate.

paintmered
04-15-2006, 05:01 PM
My reputation is down to 4 ... thanks guys, nice to know you take it out on someone when you don't like what they like.

Psst....bringing up your reputation is a good way of seeing it decrease further.

Just sayin'

cincyinco
04-15-2006, 05:01 PM
he certainly does not have the stuff and today didn't have any command. Belisle made some sweet pitches to Pujols.

Belisle has good stuff.. I think he deserves a shot..

His heater has some ooomph, and his curve is pretty nasty if I remember right.. The one game that sticks out in my mind is that spot start he had last year vs. the cards.. and if I remember correctly he dominated.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 05:01 PM
Dbl for the EE

paintmered
04-15-2006, 05:01 PM
EE doubles down the leftfield line. :)

westofyou
04-15-2006, 05:02 PM
My reputation is down to 4 ... thanks guys, nice to know you take it out on someone when you don't like what they like.
You should not get dinged for having opinion, so I'll boost you.

Reds Fanatic
04-15-2006, 05:02 PM
Hatteberg flies out to left.
Encarnacion doubles down the left field line.

paintmered
04-15-2006, 05:02 PM
Krono, you wanna do pbp? It's all yours if you want it.

KronoRed
04-15-2006, 05:02 PM
Ponson out