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The Baumer
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
1-2 is a great hitter's count.

flyer85
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
Dunn would have caught that.yeah that double switch worked.

WMR
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
george had an orgasm. seriously.

Caveat Emperor
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
Maybe instead of following the Reds next year, I'll pay someone to beat me in the nuts with a crowbar 162 days out of the year.

KronoRed
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
nnnnooooooooooooooooooo
I blame your optimism ;)

StillFunkyB
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
Well, I don't want to come to St. Louis again for a long time.

vaticanplum
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
oh my god if every grain of sand on every beach were a grain of hate it would not be a tenth as much as I hate Albert Pujols right now.

GAC
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
Dunn would have caught that.

Only if he had a camera with a zoom lens.

SirFelixCat
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
Narron is an idiot. We give up a total of 4 runs to the same guy..........yet we still pitch to him with the game on the line. Stupid. Man our BP sucks.


See, I really don't blame Weathers here. I fully blame Narron. Completely. Why even give him a chance to beat you.


Just plain STUPID

BoomerSoonerRed
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
Thank goodness I decided to follow this game on the computer instead of watching it on the tube.:cry:

CTA513
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
Why they continue to pitch to him is beyond me

Not only do they pitch to him, they give him pretty good pitches to hit.

major harris
04-16-2006, 05:23 PM
First pitch to Pujols right down the middle, called as ball. He wouldn't be this great if the umps treated him like any other player. I hate that guy. He cries anytimes a ump calls a strike on him.



Uhhh...Yes he would be that good.

SteelSD
04-16-2006, 05:24 PM
Pathetic display of pitching.

Welcome to last year.

flyer85
04-16-2006, 05:24 PM
Narron truly has to be the dumbest manager in baseball. Albert certainly put a big excalamation point on it.

RedsMan3203
04-16-2006, 05:24 PM
I'm going to store...


Who needs anything?

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 05:24 PM
They deserved to lose. When you give up hits to triple-A players and pitchers, well, you just don't deserve to win.

I hate Pujols. Damn crybaby.

KronoRed
04-16-2006, 05:25 PM
I'm going to store...


Who needs anything?
I'll take cyanide

westofyou
04-16-2006, 05:25 PM
yeah that double switch worked.Oh please, you're right it was the the determining factor of the whole game.

Now I'll roll my eyes. :sleep:

BoomerSoonerRed
04-16-2006, 05:25 PM
Well, I don't want to come to St. Louis again for a long time.
I'm just glad we didn't get swept. Hey, they've got to come to our ballpark and I think we'll see some different results.

Caveat Emperor
04-16-2006, 05:25 PM
Narron truly has to be the dumbest manager in baseball. Albert certainly put a big excalamation point on it.

I hate Albert Pujols with the hot and burning passion of 1,000 suns...

But part of this loss is on Todd Coffey's inability to retire the side in order and keep Pujols and Rolen on the bench for the bottom of the 9th. By letting them turn the batting order over, it set this win up.

Big Klu
04-16-2006, 05:25 PM
yeah that double switch worked.

Yeah, that double-switch really cost us the game.

flyer85
04-16-2006, 05:25 PM
See, I really don't blame Weathers here. I fully blame Narron. Completely. Why even give him a chance to beat you.


Just plain STUPIDnot once but three times. Stupidity beyond imagination. Managers never go outside the box because they don't won't to be second guessed(which would have happened if a BB to Pujols backfired).

StillFunkyB
04-16-2006, 05:25 PM
Disgusting really.

This could be the start of an ugly streak. Hopefully they can bounce back.

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 05:26 PM
Lost to a Triple-A squad. The Cards won't make the playoffs this year. That lineup is a joke.

NavyRedsFan
04-16-2006, 05:26 PM
I'm going to store...


Who needs anything?
A bullpen.

reds44
04-16-2006, 05:26 PM
Thank God the Marlins are coming to town.

flynn78
04-16-2006, 05:26 PM
What a novel idea to make Pujols beat you. Sounds like sound judgement to me.:confused: :angry: :bang: :explode: :censored:

Keithwg_24
04-16-2006, 05:26 PM
anyone else have gut feeling we were losing that game after the 8th, i did....I was on the phone with my buddy as soon as Marquis (who is a pitcher....i don't care if he's a good hitting pitcher, he's still a pitcher) got his hit, didn't think it would be a walk off behemoth HR by pujols, but definitely thought they'd score two.

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 05:27 PM
Thank God the Marlins are coming to town.

They'll sweep us.

JohhnyBench1001
04-16-2006, 05:27 PM
I agree. Imo I blame him for the 2 that Arroyo gave up as well, because why give the guy ANYTHING to hit when he's the only one that can beat you??? Our pitching sucks without a doubt, but Narron is just an idiot for not putting up the 4 everytime he comes to bat. The good news is that every other manager in baseball isn't stupid, and will take a look at the Cards lineup and walk Pujois and Rolen a ton of times this year and the Cards have very little else to back them up. We aren't going to win the division, but I would all but bet the Cards don't.

WMR
04-16-2006, 05:27 PM
Maybe instead of following the Reds next year, I'll pay someone to beat me in the nuts with a crowbar 162 days out of the year.
Sigged!

flyer85
04-16-2006, 05:27 PM
Pathetic display of pitching.

Welcome to last year.but we knew that. No Reds releiver has the stuff to get Pujols out. You pitch around him and hope for the best.

It is just dumb to let your outcome be ruled by the best hitter in baseball in not one but three consecutive ABs.

SteelSD
04-16-2006, 05:27 PM
I love Albert Pujols. He's a baseball quality check. If you're not all that good on the mound, Pujols will make sure you know it. If you're a manager and can't figure out that he'll beat you, he will.

Well deserved loss.

guttle11
04-16-2006, 05:27 PM
My thoughts?

Well, (rythmes with duck)!!!

membengal
04-16-2006, 05:27 PM
Disgusting really.

This could be the start of an ugly streak. Hopefully they can bounce back.

Playing the Marlins will help.

Really, a 3-3 road trip is fine, this one stings, but it will be forgotten tomorrow night.

GAC
04-16-2006, 05:28 PM
Narron deserves to be beaten for that. End of story.

I'm waiting to hear what expanation he MAY have.

Even with Rolen on deck, you don't pitch to Albert there.

SirFelixCat
04-16-2006, 05:28 PM
not once but three times. Stupidity beyond imagination. Managers never go outside the box because they don't won't to be second guessed(which would have happened if a BB to Pujols backfired).

I, for one, would have supported the decision, win or lose. You just don't let the ONE guy who can beat you, beat you. Just stupid. Not ignorant, not dumb. Plain stupid.

The Baumer
04-16-2006, 05:28 PM
I believe these are the first back to back losses for the Reds. Not good.

BoomerSoonerRed
04-16-2006, 05:28 PM
I agree. Imo I blame him for the 2 that Arroyo gave up as well, because why give the guy ANYTHING to hit when he's the only one that can beat you??? Our pitching sucks without a doubt, but Narron is just an idiot for not putting up the 4 everytime he comes to bat. The good news is that every other manager in baseball isn't stupid, and will take a look at the Cards lineup and walk Pujois and Rolen a ton of times this year and the Cards have very little else to back them up. We aren't going to win the division, but I would all but bet the Cards don't.
If the Astros had a couple of big bats in their lineup, they would run away with the Central.

Big Klu
04-16-2006, 05:28 PM
My thoughts?

Well, (rythmes with duck)!!!

Schmuck?

reds44
04-16-2006, 05:29 PM
I don't know if you can walk Pujols in the situation. The key batter really was giving p a hit to the freaking pitcher.

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 05:29 PM
This one really hurts, but I knew it was coming. Pretty embarrassing to lose two games to the Memphis Redbirds.

I would give up my house to see Pujols busted with the 'roids. ;) I can't stand that guy.

WMR
04-16-2006, 05:29 PM
If the Astros had a couple of big bats in their lineup, they would run away with the Central.

Aren't they supposed to be trading for Dunn?





;)

BoomerSoonerRed
04-16-2006, 05:29 PM
Playing the Marlins will help.

Really, a 3-3 road trip is fine, this one stings, but it will be forgotten tomorrow night.
Season's only two weeks old, no time to panic.
Hey, I'll definitely take 3-3 on this trip, and I still feel better about this team than I did on Opening Day.

Caveat Emperor
04-16-2006, 05:30 PM
I'm waiting to hear what expanation he MAY have.

Even with Rolen on deck, you don't pitch to Albert there.

You don't pitch to Albert EVER.

In fact, just write "Barry Bonds" in the lineup card and use your Bonds strategy whenever Pujols steps into the batters box.

He's simply too good of a hitter and never misses mistake pitches -- which the Reds make too many of to even think about challenging him.

flyer85
04-16-2006, 05:30 PM
I, for one, would have supported the decision, win or lose. You just don't let the ONE guy who can beat you, beat you. Just stupid. Not ignorant, not dumb. Plain stupid.but the beat writers and media won't. Afterall the baseball handbook says you don't put the winning run on base you have to pitch to the guy.

BTW, I remember a game a few years back when Showalter in the 9th had Greg Olsen walk Bonds with the bases loaded to force in a run just to pitch to the next guy. It worked that night.

Big Klu
04-16-2006, 05:31 PM
This one really hurts, but I knew it was coming. Pretty embarrassing to lose three games to the Memphis Redbirds.

I would give up my house to see Pujols busted with the 'roids. ;) I can't stand that guy.

The Reds only lost two.

BoomerSoonerRed
04-16-2006, 05:31 PM
Aren't they supposed to be trading for Dunn?





;)
I said this last year to my co-worker, a die-hard Astros fan: If you get Dunn, you win the pennant.
Turns out they won the pennant without Dunn, but with Dunn they might have won at least a couple of World Series games.

SteelSD
04-16-2006, 05:31 PM
but we knew that. No Reds releiver has the stuff to get Pujols out. You pitch around him and hope for the best.

It is just dumb to let your outcome be ruled by the best hitter in baseball in not one but three consecutive ABs.

Here's the issue in the 9th...

You just allowed Jason Marquis to reach base. You walk Pujols, and you've just turned the game over to Scott Rolen- but now a single will beat you. You don't want Rolen to beat you? Well, you just ended up with the bases loaded and none out. Do that and you're likely to lose anyway. The Marquis single was the most important event in that chain. The Pujols HR just one of the nigh-inevitable ways the Cards win that game at that point.

The first two times they pitched to Pujols is what killed the Reds. The 9th Inning HR was just a residual of that. Had they pitched Pujols smartly earlier on, there's no walkoff HR.

flyer85
04-16-2006, 05:31 PM
I don't know if you can walk Pujols in the situation. Why not? He showed you why you should have. It's because Narron doesn't have the guts to face down the media if he had went outside the box and had it backfire.

It is all about having the courage of your convictions or instead being ruled by how the game is supposed to be played.

BoomerSoonerRed
04-16-2006, 05:32 PM
I would give up my house to see Pujols busted with the 'roids. ;) I can't stand that guy.
You and me both.

flyer85
04-16-2006, 05:33 PM
Here's the issue in the 9th...

You just allowed Jason Marquis to reach base. You walk Pujols, and you've just turned the game over to Scott Rolen- but now a single will beat you. You don't want Rolen to beat you? no it doesn't, it sends the game to extras at best. I would rather have taken my chances with the likes of Rolen, JE and Luna

WMR
04-16-2006, 05:33 PM
Jerry will always--ALWAYS--take the "proven, 'baseball-guy-lifer' route."

KronoRed
04-16-2006, 05:33 PM
Walk him and take a chance with the rest of the lineup, especially when he's having a freakishly good game.

Jr's Boy
04-16-2006, 05:33 PM
You can bet bobby cox would have IW him.Narron better be gone after the season,or sooner.

reds44
04-16-2006, 05:34 PM
You can bet bobby cox would have IW him.
so?

flyer85
04-16-2006, 05:34 PM
You can bet bobby cox would have IW him.I don't know. The only good I know would have is Buck Showalter.

SirFelixCat
04-16-2006, 05:35 PM
Here's the issue in the 9th...

You just allowed Jason Marquis to reach base. You walk Pujols, and you've just turned the game over to Scott Rolen- but now a single will beat you. You don't want Rolen to beat you? Well, you just ended up with the bases loaded and none out. Do that and you're likely to lose anyway. The Marquis single was the most important event in that chain. The Pujols HR just one of the nigh-inevitable ways the Cards win that game at that point.

The first two times they pitched to Pujols is what killed the Reds. The 9th Inning HR was just a residual of that. Had they pitched Pujols smartly earlier on, there's no walkoff HR.

I mentioned before the bot of the 9th that Marquis AB was the most crucial in the inning. If you get the first out, you can then IBB AP and let the rest try their hand at it.

Just dumb, still, by Narron.

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 05:35 PM
We need 6 new relievers. Coffey is decent but the rest are terrible. What was Weathers thinking anyway? He should have thrown a slider down and away, that is Pujols' only weakness. Just stupid pitching by the Reds. This will be the loss that sends them in a tailspin. The Marlins will come in and take two of three with a possible sweep.

reds44
04-16-2006, 05:36 PM
We need 6 new relievers. Coffey is decent but the rest are terrible. What was Weathers thinking anyway? He should have thrown a slider down and away, that is Pujols' only weakness. Just stupid pitching by the Reds. This will be the loss that sends them in a tailspin. The Marlins will come in and take two of three with a possibly sweep.
No not the Marlins.

SirFelixCat
04-16-2006, 05:37 PM
We need 6 new relievers. Coffey is decent but the rest are terrible. What was Weathers thinking anyway? He should have thrown a slider down and away, that is Pujols' only weakness. Just stupid pitching by the Reds. This will be the loss that sends them in a tailspin. The Marlins will come in and take two of three with a possibly sweep.


Bet?

CTA513
04-16-2006, 05:37 PM
Hopefully this game shows the owners they need to fix the bullpen... if not then we will see this poop all the time.

JohhnyBench1001
04-16-2006, 05:38 PM
Why not? He showed you why you should have. It's because Narron doesn't have the guts to face down the media if he had went outside the box and had it backfire.

It is all about having the courage of your convictions or instead being ruled by how the game is supposed to be played.


Man after a guy has blasted 2 off of you already in the game imo it isn't that far out of the box. I mean it isn't like Albert was 1-3 with a single in the game. He had hit HRs his last 2 ABs. I can't wait for this season to end so we can finish cleaning up O'Brien's mess.........aka... getting rid of Narron, and the other bums he brought in (white, hammond, etc.).

Caveat Emperor
04-16-2006, 05:39 PM
I mentioned before the bot of the 9th that Marquis AB was the most crucial in the inning. If you get the first out, you can then IBB AP and let the rest try their hand at it.

Just dumb, still, by Narron.

Too many men went to the plate in the 8th. If Todd can retire the side in order or can avoid letting 6 men come to bat, then suddenly Pujols is taken out of the equation in the bottom of the 9th. Everything has a consequence.

That being said, I still walk Pujols and take my chances with Rolen. Pujols is a murderer, Rolen is more of an aggrevated assualt kinda guy.

Jr's Boy
04-16-2006, 05:40 PM
so?


Sorry I just got caught up in the moment thinking what a real manager would do.But what do I know about a real manager,i'm a Reds fan.

reds44
04-16-2006, 05:42 PM
Sorry I just got caught up in the moment thinking what a real manager would do.
Oh please.

Everyhing Narron has done has turned into gold this year. In the 9th I would have pitched to Pujols also. The at bat I had a problem with was when Miles was on 2nd, and 1st base was open and they pitched to Pujols.

CTA513
04-16-2006, 05:43 PM
Sorry I just got caught up in the moment thinking what a real manager would do.But what do I know about a real manager,i'm a Reds fan.

Narron is to busy making pretty lineup cards. :laugh:

JohhnyBench1001
04-16-2006, 05:43 PM
Too many men went to the plate in the 8th. If Todd can retire the side in order or can avoid letting 6 men come to bat, then suddenly Pujols is taken out of the equation in the bottom of the 9th. Everything has a consequence.

That being said, I still walk Pujols and take my chances with Rolen. Pujols is a murderer, Rolen is more of an aggrevated assualt.


I agree with you on Coffey, but it isn't like we didn't have a 1/2 inning to know that we had to face Pujois. I mean the Cards couldn't get the tying run home in the 8th with bases loaded and 1 out, but Narron can't figure out not to let their only horse beat you??

reds44
04-16-2006, 05:45 PM
I agree with you on Coffey, but it isn't like we didn't have a 1/2 inning to know that we had to face Pujois. I mean the Cards couldn't get the tying run home in the 8th with bases loaded and 1 out, but Narron can't figure out not to let their only horse beat you??
Their only horse?

That Rolen guy batting right behind Pujols isn't bad.

If Narron walks Pujols and Rolen doubles in the game winning runs you are rippping ihm.

Benny-Distefano
04-16-2006, 05:45 PM
Tackleberry blows another one. :(

JohhnyBench1001
04-16-2006, 05:46 PM
Dude the guy was responsible for 50% of their runs today, but you don't think that Narron is at fault for not figuring out not to pitch to him??? I mean without Pujois we win this one easily, but with him we lose on a walkoff HR.......sorry bud a manager has to have enough smarts to know that you don't let the MLB MVP beat you time after time. It isn't like he hadn't done it for 2 HRs and 3 RBIs before that one. Yep Rolen's a hoss, but like someone else said I take my chances with him at that point anyday of the week........you don't let the best player in baseball beat you..........time after.....time.

Caveat Emperor
04-16-2006, 05:48 PM
I agree with you on Coffey, but it isn't like we didn't have a 1/2 inning to know that we had to face Pujois. I mean the Cards couldn't get the tying run home in the 8th with bases loaded and 1 out, but Narron can't figure out not to let their only horse beat you??

He's growing and learning, Todd Coffey will have better days than the one today.

And, as for Narron -- Pujols murders medicore pitching. David Weathers is a serviceable relief man made to look much better than he really is by comparison to all the crap floating around in the pen behind him. He's the kind of guy Pujols kills. It's hard to do something about a guy when none of your arms have the control and velocity to handle him.

Narron put the best that the Reds have to offer out there against Pujols, and Albert crapped all over it. The solution, as Steel pointed out, isn't as easy as "walk Pujols" (although it's the choice I would've made) because there's a hitter almost as good sitting behind him and a man already on 1st. Marquis being on base already had taken the decision out of Narrons hands, to a large extent.

So Weathers pitched to Pujols and got taken to the woodshed. The real solution isn't better coaching -- it's getting better pitchers capable of handling or controlling batters like Al.

That being said, I wouldn't mind terribly if Narron was collecting unemployment by midweek.

reds44
04-16-2006, 05:49 PM
Dude the guy was responsible for 50% of their runs today, but you don't think that Narron is at fault for not figuring out not to pitch to him??? I mean without Pujois we win this one easily, but with him we lose on a walkoff HR.......sorry bud a manager has to have enough since to know that you don't let the MLB MVP beat you time after time.
Dude, buddy you don't put the tieing runner on 2nd and the go ahead runner on 1st for an all-star.


Dude the key at bat was giving up a hit to the pitcher.

pedro
04-16-2006, 05:52 PM
The Reds got thumped by the best player in baseball today. That's why he's the best.

I still would have walked him in the 9th.

lollipopcurve
04-16-2006, 05:55 PM
Weathers had him 1-2 and hangs one. Terrible execution by the Reds pseudocloser. Flashback to last April when Graves blew up against the Cards in the 9th, sending the team into a tailspin.
Reds need to find a big arm to close games. Is it Coffey or Wagner? I'm not sold on either.

JohhnyBench1001
04-16-2006, 05:56 PM
Dude, buddy you don't put the tieing runner on 2nd and the go ahead runner on 1st for an all-star.


Dude the key at bat was giving up a hit to the pitcher.


I said that before he ever did. However, at that point imo, you take your chances with Rolen and give Pujois 4 crappy pitches that he can either go fishing on or goes to 1st. You don't let him kill you yet again. Oh and I wouldn't have been mad at Narron for walking him even if he hits the double (which again most likely happens because Weathers looked like crap today), because at least we aren't getting beat by the same person and making the same stupid mistake for the 3rd time today. Our pen sucks and is the reason we lost, and there really isn't much debate about that. However, at least 2 of Pujois HRs should have been walks, and that's probably enough to win the game.

flyer85
04-16-2006, 05:56 PM
Dude, buddy you don't put the tieing runner on 2nd and the go ahead runner on 1st for an all-star.


Dude the key at bat was giving up a hit to the pitcher.
The key AB was giving up the HR to Pujols, there is no way around it.

reds44
04-16-2006, 05:56 PM
Weathers had him 1-2 and hangs one. Terrible execution by the Reds pseudocloser. Flashback to last April when Graves blew up against the Cards in the 9th, sending the team into a tailspin.
Reds need to find a big arm to close games. Is it Coffey or Wagner? I'm not sold on either.
Oh my God.

Friday night's game wasn't a clsoe game?

You get beat by walk off homers, crap happens.

Chip R
04-16-2006, 05:57 PM
I would have been a lot more upset if Molina or Spezio or Luna had hit that game winner. Darn near any closer would be shaking in their boots having to pitch to Pujols in that situation. Ask Brad Lidge. I was more upset that Marquis got a base hit. I was upset that he was even up. I see that as a sign of disrespect on LaRussas part. I know he is a good hitter but If I were Weathers, I would have knocked his ass down. I liked the way the Reds came back today. It was, dare I say, scrappy. ;) I think this game is a perfect example why Coffey is not a closer yet. The man just gives up too many baserunners. It was good he got out of that jam in the 8th but it was his jam. Even during the time Graves was getting 30 some saves a year he caught a lot of flack for giving up too many hits. Hopefully Jr. will be back tomorrow and we can get those Marlins.

Cooper
04-16-2006, 05:59 PM
Chip: Junior ain't coming back for a while...we've seen this way too many times...don't cha think it's gonna be a while??

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 06:01 PM
I don't see the Cardinals reaching the playoffs this year, unless of couse Walt Jocketty goes out and acquires Vladimir Guererro, Lance Berkman, Jeff Kent, K-Rod, and Joe Nathan tomorrow. That lineup is horrible, only two major leaguers in it. It sort of reminds me of the lineup the Reds ran out there in late 2001. The bullpen has its problems, too.

SteelSD
04-16-2006, 06:07 PM
I mentioned before the bot of the 9th that Marquis AB was the most crucial in the inning. If you get the first out, you can then IBB AP and let the rest try their hand at it.

Just dumb, still, by Narron.

Yep. Agreed. Furthermore, if you get a PITCHER out leading off the ninth, you then IBB Pujols with one Out and you have have the DP set up without a Runner in scoring position.

Giving up a single to Marquis was inexcusable considering the context. Do that and you're forced to pitch to Pujols. Even if Rolen doesn't single but does anything at all to advance Marquis to 3B, you're set up for a squeeze to tie it up (and the Cards are pretty good at squeeze plays).

Stupid pitching all game long created a scenario in which the Reds set themselves up to take a loss.

pedro
04-16-2006, 06:08 PM
I don't see the Cardinals reaching the playoffs this year, unless of couse Walt Jocketty goes out and acquires Vladimir Guererro, Lance Berkman, Jeff Kent, K-Rod, and Joe Nathan tomorrow. That lineup is horrible, only two major leaguers in it. It sort of reminds me of the lineup the Reds ran out there in late 2001. The bullpen has its problems, too.

well, I suppose that means you think the Brewers are going to win the central, b/c it sure isn't going to be the Cubs or the Astros IMO.

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 06:10 PM
Just saw the replay of Pujols' walkoff HR. Congrats on winning game 7 of the World Series, buddy. His reaction was very similar to Joe Carter after he hit a walkoff to win the '93 series.

Man I can't stand that guy.

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 06:11 PM
well, I suppose that means you think the Brewers are going to win the central, b/c it sure isn't going to be the Cubs or the Astros IMO.

Yup. I made a prediction back in February that the Brewers would give the Cards a run for their money. That was before I realized how bad the Cards bullpen and lineup was. I could definitely see the Brew Crew making a run at the division title, especially if Ben Sheets can give them 30 starts.

Falls City Beer
04-16-2006, 06:14 PM
Arroyo sucked today. Plain and simple. No reason not to shut down that lineup.

Unassisted
04-16-2006, 06:23 PM
This game just served up a reminder that the Reds had the benefit of starting off the season with the soft and sweet part of their schedule. The Cubs and Pirates were the marshmallow frosting. This series was more like beef jerky—a tough, salty dose of reality.

flyer85
04-16-2006, 06:27 PM
with the state of the Reds pitching and especially the pen there is not likely to be an easy part of a schedule. They need to score bunches to win with regularity

TeamBoone
04-16-2006, 06:30 PM
Well deserved loss.

Well deserved by Narron, but not by the guys on our team.

OK, so the key was the pitcher getting on base. OK, it happened... move on. Pujols is now up to bat.. what do you do?

IMHO, you take your chances with Rolen every day and twice on Sunday before you pitch to Pujols in that situation. If there was no runner on, maybe... with the runner on, no way.

kbrake
04-16-2006, 06:34 PM
Just saw the replay of Pujols' walkoff HR. Congrats on winning game 7 of the World Series, buddy. His reaction was very similar to Joe Carter after he hit a walkoff to win the '93 series.

Man I can't stand that guy.

I dont know how you can be mad at Pujols. His team needed a win and a big hit and he delivered. You want to be mad, be mad at Weathers and Narron. Every ball Weathers threw him was complete crap. Pujols is an amazing player, I believe the best in baseball, no you should give him a chance to beat you even if Marquis gets the hit. I know you dont want to put the tying run in scoring position, but you knew Pujols was going to rock Weathers. That should have not suprised anyone.

Cant Touch This
04-16-2006, 06:48 PM
I dont know how you can be mad at Pujols. His team needed a win and a big hit and he delivered. You want to be mad, be mad at Weathers and Narron. Every ball Weathers threw him was complete crap. Pujols is an amazing player, I believe the best in baseball, no you should give him a chance to beat you even if Marquis gets the hit. I know you dont want to put the tying run in scoring position, but you knew Pujols was going to rock Weathers. That should have not suprised anyone.

Part of being a fan is loathing the best of the opposition. In truth, it's usually a form of jealousy. I don't really harbor any feelings toward AP, but I did think it was pretty bush league of him to bark at the home plate ump for calling the strike immediately after he took one right down the pipe that was called a ball. How was that pitch a ball? I watched it a couple of times on Tivo and I just don't see it....

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 06:51 PM
I dont know how you can be mad at Pujols. His team needed a win and a big hit and he delivered. You want to be mad, be mad at Weathers and Narron. Every ball Weathers threw him was complete crap. Pujols is an amazing player, I believe the best in baseball, no you should give him a chance to beat you even if Marquis gets the hit. I know you dont want to put the tying run in scoring position, but you knew Pujols was going to rock Weathers. That should have not suprised anyone.

I just don't like the guy. The umps give him the smallest strikezone I've ever seen, and he whines whenever they do call a strike on him, he whines everytime someone throws inside or hits him, and now I really can't stand him after that showboating he did after the 3rd homerun. I have nothing against celebrating a win by throwing your hands up in the air or doing the hop at the plate, but Pujols took it too far. He celebrated like he had just won game 7 of the World Series.

He's an unbelievable player...I just don't like him.

Big Klu
04-16-2006, 06:53 PM
Part of being a fan is loathing the best of the opposition. In truth, it's usually a form of jealousy. I don't really harbor any feelings toward AP, but I did think it was pretty bush league of him to bark at the home plate ump for calling the strike immediately after he took one right down the pipe that was called a ball. How was that pitch a ball? I watched it a couple of times on Tivo and I just don't see it....

I don't like him because I feel that he turned his back on his country during the WBC. He is a U.S. citizen, yet he chose to play for a foreign power (in this case, the Dominican Republic). I guess being an American doesn't mean that much to him.

WMR
04-16-2006, 06:57 PM
I just don't like the guy. The umps give him the smallest strikezone I've ever seen, and he whines whenever they do call a strike on him

Just like JJ at Duke. He never committed a foul his entire college career and if he was breathed on he was whining to the refs for a call.

edabbs44
04-16-2006, 07:02 PM
Didn't see the game today, but if Krivsky doesn't make a move to get some pen help after this game then we can only figure on a good draft pick next year. Plain and simple. I really think they have a shot to make some noise if they get some help. I can deal with Weathers in middle relief, along with Mercker. Coffey as the closer. Wagner and Shack in mid relief until they show some consistency. But we need some type of shut down arm for the 8th and possibly 9th. Without it, it's just going to be another year.

MWM
04-16-2006, 07:08 PM
Steel, beat me to it. The Marquis AB took all options away from Narron. There was nothing he could do. If you can't get Jason Marquis out, you're not going to win the game anyhow.

The one that hurt the most, and the one that shouldn't have happened, was the HR given up by White. There were 2 outs, it was a 2-1 count and the ball was right over the plate. Pujols couldn't have placed it any better on a tee. That was the bonehead pitch sequence.

indyred
04-16-2006, 07:10 PM
Well the series had everything...best win of the year Friday.......worst loss of the year today........

MWM
04-16-2006, 07:10 PM
OBM, seriously dude, I say this because I lke you. But you have to learn to be less emotional or you're going to have a heart attack. Surely you never believed this was a playoff team.

Caveat Emperor
04-16-2006, 07:16 PM
I dont know how you can be mad at Pujols. His team needed a win and a big hit and he delivered. You want to be mad, be mad at Weathers and Narron. Every ball Weathers threw him was complete crap. Pujols is an amazing player, I believe the best in baseball, no you should give him a chance to beat you even if Marquis gets the hit. I know you dont want to put the tying run in scoring position, but you knew Pujols was going to rock Weathers. That should have not suprised anyone.

Albert Pujols is the living, breathing embodiment of Clue Haywood from Major League -- the hitter who just owns the good guys and seemingly crushes one out every time he steps up to the dish. The only thing missing is him asking Dave Ross "How's your wife and my kids?" when he comes up to bat.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/drewsnyder/cluehaywood.jpg

The obvious solution is to sign Charlie Sheen and just have him pitch to Pujols whenever the game is on the line.

Falls City Beer
04-16-2006, 07:24 PM
I hope Arroyo learns to pitch a bit more efficiently and confidently against good teams because that was a slow, deliberate, and awful start. There should have been a three or four run cushion going into the ninth, but Arroyo decided to let the Cardinals' scrubs destroy him.

reds44
04-16-2006, 07:24 PM
I just don't like the guy. The umps give him the smallest strikezone I've ever seen, and he whines whenever they do call a strike on him, he whines everytime someone throws inside or hits him, and now I really can't stand him after that showboating he did after the 3rd homerun. I have nothing against celebrating a win by throwing your hands up in the air or doing the hop at the plate, but Pujols took it too far. He celebrated like he had just won game 7 of the World Series.

He's an unbelievable player...I just don't like him.
I agree. And when he gets walked he literally throws his bat to show up the pitcher.

MWM
04-16-2006, 07:29 PM
Oh yeah, horrible balls and strikes calling today. Worst I've seen this year. But it was on both sides, so I don't think it was unfair. But incompetence still bothers me.

I know it's difficult to officiate professional sports contests, but umping in baseball and reffing in football and basketball is done very poorly at the professional level, IMO. Maybe it's as good as it can be, but I have a hard time believing it couldn't be significantly better, especially in baseball which is the easiest of all the sports to officiate. Balls and strikes are not that hard to call. The powers that be need to be more diligent in citiquing the performance of professional umps or refs. It plays such a large role in the games that only the best should be officiating and if your performance slumps, you should be removed. They should be relentless in evaluating performance.

traderumor
04-16-2006, 07:53 PM
Oh yeah, horrible balls and strikes calling today. Worst I've seen this year. But it was on both sides, so I don't think it was unfair. But incompetence still bothers me.

I know it's difficult to officiate professional sports contests, but umping in baseball and reffing in football and basketball is done very poorly at the professional level, IMO. Maybe it's as good as it can be, but I have a hard time believing it couldn't be significantly better, especially in baseball which is the easiest of all the sports to officiate. Balls and strikes are not that hard to call. The powers that be need to be more diligent in citiquing the performance of professional umps or refs. It plays such a large role in the games that only the best should be officiating and if your performance slumps, you should be removed. They should be relentless in evaluating performance.Oh man, I thought maybe we had a bad angle because I constantly found myself saying "huh?" And it was a big factor in Arroyo being behind all day. Quite frankly, I thought Narron needed to get his "golly gee" butt out of the dugout and do some barking today and stick up for Lopez on the close play at first that could have went our way, plus do some barking from the dugout on a crappy, non existent strike zone.

Mutaman
04-16-2006, 08:02 PM
I don't like him because I feel that he turned his back on his country during the WBC. He is a U.S. citizen, yet he chose to play for a foreign power (in this case, the Dominican Republic). I guess being an American doesn't mean that much to him.


Yeah, that Dominican Republic is a real "foreign power". Particularly on 145th and Broadway. i heard they're developing WMDs.

Raisor
04-16-2006, 08:10 PM
I went to the Pads/Braves game today. Got sunburnt and got to look at a lot of pretty girls, so *I* had a pretty good day.

I think I won't read the game thread, don't need the rise in blood pressure.

Big Klu
04-16-2006, 08:23 PM
Yeah, that Dominican Republic is a real "foreign power". Particularly on 145th and Broadway. i heard they're developing WMDs.

They are a foreign baseball power.

MattyHo4Life
04-16-2006, 08:23 PM
That lineup is horrible, only two major leaguers in it. It sort of reminds me of the lineup the Reds ran out there in late 2001. The bullpen has its problems, too.

This is obviously sarcasm, because Eckstein and Molina are very good Major Leaguers as well. The problem is that the Cardinals find a way to win games no matter who they put in the line-up. The Cardinals have a way of making mediocre players look good. Look at the Abraham Nunez' and Tony Womack's of the world. A big reason for that is that Albert Pujols is in the line-up. Pujols makes everybody around him a much better player.

MWM
04-16-2006, 08:24 PM
While Eckstein isn't a bad player, I certainly don't think he qualifies as "very good."

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 08:26 PM
OBM, seriously dude, I say this because I lke you. But you have to learn to be less emotional or you're going to have a heart attack. Surely you never believed this was a playoff team.

:D

I have people tell me this all the time. I wish I could control my emotions, but unfortunately, I can't.

Trust me, I never thought this team had a chance to make the playoffs, but when they start out solid like they did this year, it gets my hopes up that we can make a little run and maybe surprise some people.

MWM
04-16-2006, 08:30 PM
but when they start out solid like they did this year,

Just so you know, they had the exact same record last year after 12 games. Anyone can play well for 10 games. Use your good judgment and that should help you understand where they're headed this year. That should help with the emptions.

SteelSD
04-16-2006, 08:35 PM
This is obviously sarcasm, because Eckstein and Molina are very good Major Leaguers as well. The problem is that the Cardinals find a way to win games no matter who they put in the line-up. The Cardinals have a way of making mediocre players look good. Look at the Abraham Nunez' and Tony Womack's of the world. A big reason for that is that Albert Pujols is in the line-up. Pujols makes everybody around him a much better player.

And yet, Eckstein produced similar results when with Anaheim and Yadier Molina, while solid defensively, is nothing but offensive dead weight.

If Albert Pujols actually does make a goodly number of hitters "better", I sure don't see it with those two.

GAC
04-16-2006, 08:37 PM
Steel, beat me to it. The Marquis AB took all options away from Narron. There was nothing he could do. If you can't get Jason Marquis out, you're not going to win the game anyhow.

The one that hurt the most, and the one that shouldn't have happened, was the HR given up by White. There were 2 outs, it was a 2-1 count and the ball was right over the plate. Pujols couldn't have placed it any better on a tee. That was the bonehead pitch sequence.

And White did the same thing last week. I was watching him and overall he was pitching really well and keeping the ball down. Then one bad pitch (a ball up) and BAM!

MWM
04-16-2006, 08:38 PM
And White did the same thing last week. I was watching him and overall he was pitching really well and keeping the ball down. Then one bad pitch (a ball up) and BAM!

GAC, I'm gong to dismiss anything you say about White because of your personal relationship with him. :cool:

I've watched him plenty this year and he hasn't looked good to me in the least. If one bad pich is always going to result in a dinger, he's toast because no one can make good pitches 100% of the time.

GAC
04-16-2006, 08:40 PM
Oh yeah, horrible balls and strikes calling today. Worst I've seen this year. But it was on both sides, so I don't think it was unfair. But incompetence still bothers me.

Saw it too Mike. But the ump was consistent on both sides. But his strike zone was tight, very tight.

GAC
04-16-2006, 08:44 PM
GAC, I'm gong to dismiss anything you say about White because of your personal relationship with him. :cool:

Hey! That's my brother, not me. :lol:


I've watched him plenty this year and he hasn't looked good to me in the least. If one bad pich is always going to result in a dinger, he's toast because no one can make good pitches 100% of the time.

Pitchers get away with bad pitches all the time. But I wouldn't contend that one bad pitch is ALWAYS going to result in a dinger... and it hasn't with White.

And I'm not defending White. I think he is a so-so pitcher. That seems to be the norm with this BP right now

MWM
04-16-2006, 08:52 PM
Pitchers get away with bad pitches all the time. But I wouldn't contend that one bad pitch is ALWAYS going to result in a dinger... and it hasn't with White.

And I'm not defending White. I think he is a so-so pitcher. That seems to be the norm with this BP right now

But the notion that he looks good most of the time but his misses get crushed is the perfect description for most bad or failed relievers. They get to the majors for a reason, and that's because they can usually throw a lot of good pitches. But the difference between effective relivers and the Rick White's of the world is the number of times they miss and the fat tat their misses are almost always mashed.

Rick White hasn't been an effective reliever since 2001. I'm still clueless as to why DanO thought it was a good idea to sign him. His OPS against numbers over the past 4 years is .731, .845, .880, and .771. That's a lot of misses that are getting crushed.

GAC
04-16-2006, 09:01 PM
I'm still clueless as to why DanO thought it was a good idea to sign him.

#1 - It was Dan O'Brien

#2 - $600,000

flyer85
04-16-2006, 09:04 PM
But the notion that he looks good most of the time but his misses get crushed is the perfect description for most bad or failed relievers. They get to the majors for a reason, and that's because they can usually throw a lot of good pitches. But the difference between effective relivers and the Rick White's of the world is the number of times they miss and the fat tat their misses are almost always mashed.

Rick White hasn't been an effective reliever since 2001. I'm still clueless as to why DanO thought it was a good idea to sign him. His OPS against numbers over the past 4 years is .731, .845, .880, and .771. That's a lot of misses that are getting crushed.
White's career has been defined by being at his best - below average, and at his worst - truly awful.

WVRedsFan
04-16-2006, 09:04 PM
Steel, beat me to it. The Marquis AB took all options away from Narron. There was nothing he could do. If you can't get Jason Marquis out, you're not going to win the game anyhow.

The one that hurt the most, and the one that shouldn't have happened, was the HR given up by White. There were 2 outs, it was a 2-1 count and the ball was right over the plate. Pujols couldn't have placed it any better on a tee. That was the bonehead pitch sequence.

I guess that's three of us.

The thing that always gets me is how hittable our bullpen is against almost anybody, and especially the Cards. Although Coffey got out of trouble in the 8th, he wasn't fooling anyone as every ball was hard hit (almost) and I was holding my breath. I was then amazed that Narron brought in Weathers who gets hit like a bad stepchild by Pujols and Rolen. Weathers then proceeded to give a *pitcher* (whether he's a good hitter or not) one down the middle so he could face a guy who's 5 for 10 against him. It's that old brain-dead method of the new century (and a little before) where you bring in your closer no matter what. I hate it.

KronoRed
04-16-2006, 09:09 PM
I don't think anything past #1 is needed.

traderumor
04-16-2006, 09:27 PM
This is obviously sarcasm, because Eckstein and Molina are very good Major Leaguers as well. The problem is that the Cardinals find a way to win games no matter who they put in the line-up. The Cardinals have a way of making mediocre players look good. Look at the Abraham Nunez' and Tony Womack's of the world. A big reason for that is that Albert Pujols is in the line-up. Pujols makes everybody around him a much better player.I don't think it had to be sarcasm. I pondered today who was going to win the Central based on current rosters. The Cards have the strength of an above average rotation, but that's about it. Pujols and Rolen are going to have to do a lot of heavy lifting if Edmonds demise is occurring before our eyes (oh shucky darn). This is easily the weakest the Cards have been since the pre-McGwire days.

flyer85
04-16-2006, 09:30 PM
Cards pen looks very shaky as well.

I am much more bullish on the Cubs than anyone else on this board is. I like their pen(they just sent down a guy who could close for the Reds), their offense is decent and if Prior and Wood are back in early May I honestly think they have the best team.

Falls City Beer
04-16-2006, 09:32 PM
Cards pen looks very shaky as well.

I am much more bullish on the Cubs than anyone else on this board is. I like their pen(they just sent down a guy who could close for the Reds), their offense is decent and if Prior and Wood are back in early May I honestly think they have the best team.

Nah, Houston is flush with pitching--healthy pitching. They're your Central champs.

flyer85
04-16-2006, 09:36 PM
Nah, Houston is flush with pitching--healthy pitching. They're your Central champs.We shall see, sorry but I don't like there pitching outside of Pettitte and Oswalt. I'm not sold on the likes of Backe, Astacio, Rodriguez, etc. In addition I think the offense is highly questionable outside of Berkman and Ensberg.

Then again it's all speculation and that's why the play the season. I realize I'm a lonely camper on the Cubs bandwagon.

Caveat Emperor
04-16-2006, 09:36 PM
Cards pen looks very shaky as well.

I am much more bullish on the Cubs than anyone else on this board is. I like their pen(they just sent down a guy who could close for the Reds), their offense is decent and if Prior and Wood are back in early May I honestly think they have the best team.

At this point I'm almost willing to give it to Milwaukee by default. I'll get a better look at them when the Reds go to Miller later on this week.

However, St. Louis just does not look impressive -- it's Pujols, Rolen and 6 guys named Joe if Edmonds can't be counted on reliably to answer the bell. Chicago is the same team (Lee, Ramirez and 6 guys named Joe) plus 2 pitchers who can't stay helathy.

One thing I remain firmly convinced of, though, is that if the Reds can improve the 'pen enough to play .500 ball, they'll linger in the Central well into late July. That might be too much to ask for this team, though...

flyer85
04-16-2006, 09:44 PM
At this point I'm almost willing to give it to Milwaukee by default. I'll get a better look at them when the Reds go to Miller later on this week.

However, St. Louis just does not look impressive -- it's Pujols, Rolen and 6 guys named Joe if Edmonds can't be counted on reliably to answer the bell. Chicago is the same team (Lee, Ramirez and 6 guys named Joe) plus 2 pitchers who can't stay helathy.

One thing I remain firmly convinced of, though, is that if the Reds can improve the 'pen enough to play .500 ball, they'll linger in the Central well into late July. That might be too much to ask for this team, though...
any team that can stay stay around .500 will linger in the race. I certainly don't see a team clearly better than the rest.

Falls City Beer
04-16-2006, 09:46 PM
We shall see, sorry but I don't like there pitching outside of Pettitte and Oswalt. I'm not sold on the likes of Backe, Astacio, Rodriguez, etc. In addition I think the offense is highly questionable outside of Berkman and Ensberg.

Then again it's all speculation and that's why the play the season. I realize I'm a lonely camper on the Cubs bandwagon.

Give me two aces and a killer bullpen and I'll give you a playoff team. I don't care if the offense is mediocre.

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 09:50 PM
Just so you know, they had the exact same record last year after 12 games. Anyone can play well for 10 games. Use your good judgment and that should help you understand where they're headed this year. That should help with the emptions.

Oh, after we lose two or three games in a row then that's when it kicks in that I was right in predicting that this team would lose 90 games. I usually get optomistic for 10 games or so early in the year and then that goes down hill.

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2006, 09:51 PM
This is obviously sarcasm, because Eckstein and Molina are very good Major Leaguers as well. The problem is that the Cardinals find a way to win games no matter who they put in the line-up. The Cardinals have a way of making mediocre players look good. Look at the Abraham Nunez' and Tony Womack's of the world. A big reason for that is that Albert Pujols is in the line-up. Pujols makes everybody around him a much better player.

Eckstein and Molina are bad hitters. The Cards have two major league hitters in that lineup, IMO.

reds44
04-16-2006, 11:09 PM
Well at least we are the top story on Sports Center. :|

kyred14
04-16-2006, 11:18 PM
I thought Kullman signed White. :confused:

OnBaseMachine
04-17-2006, 01:59 AM
Guys, I apologize for all the complaining and negative posts I made today. I pretty much embarrassed myself with some of the dumb posts I made out of frustration. I've had a hard time sleeping lately(I've had somewhere around 20 hours of sleep in the last six days), plus the fact that I wear my emotions on my sleeve equals a bad combination when watching your favorite baseball team lose in the fashion that it did yesterday.

Again, I apologize for ruining the game thread for some of you. I'm usually not this way! :)

MattyHo4Life
04-17-2006, 10:01 AM
Eckstein and Molina are bad hitters. The Cards have two major league hitters in that lineup, IMO.

That sure doesn't say much for Arroyo then. 5 IP and 5 ER against a AAA line-up?

Falls City Beer
04-17-2006, 10:09 AM
That sure doesn't say much for Arroyo then. 5 IP and 5 ER against a AAA line-up?

It sure doesn't.

traderumor
04-17-2006, 11:23 AM
That sure doesn't say much for Arroyo then. 5 IP and 5 ER against a AAA line-up?3 of which were driven in by the two of Pujols and Rolen, the other two by someone named Gonzalez. It won't take long for the rest of the league to just quit pitching to those two. The Reds should have taken that approach, but those guys aren't real good at avoiding hitting zones.

OnBaseMachine
04-17-2006, 11:55 AM
That sure doesn't say much for Arroyo then. 5 IP and 5 ER against a AAA line-up?

Your right. Arroyo had a very bad day. He had no command at all and thus the five runs - three came off the bat of Pujols and Rolen, the AAA hitters drove in two.