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CougarQuest
04-18-2006, 12:54 AM
The other day (when the board was down apparently), I heard a rumor on the radio about Dontrelle Willis being available. There was also another player they were supposedly making available, but I don't remember the name (I kinda went into the Homer Simpson mode when he hears the word "donuts").
Apparently the Reds/Marlins have been in contact with each other. The talking heads on the radio show were talking about Kearns to Marlins with a prospect.

Has anyone else heard about this rumor? If so, has any more been talked about it? I haven't had time to check any of the websites to see anything. I really thought there would have been something on here about it.

KronoRed
04-18-2006, 12:58 AM
We may have asked but we'll get outbid in every scenario for Willis, we just don't have the trading pieces.

WVPacman
04-18-2006, 12:58 AM
The other day (when the board was down apparently), I heard a rumor on the radio about Dontrelle Willis being available. There was also another player they were supposedly making available, but I don't remember the name (I kinda went into the Homer Simpson mode when he hears the word "donuts").
Apparently the Reds/Marlins have been in contact with each other. The talking heads on the radio show were talking about Kearns to Marlins with a prospect.

Has anyone else heard about this rumor? If so, has any more been talked about it? I haven't had time to check any of the websites to see anything. I really thought there would have been something on here about it.


The only rumors that I have heard is the ones on the board,BUT I was reading THE SPORTING NEWS book that I got about 2 weeks ago and they said that Willis could be the next one traded. It did'nt say were or to who but that tells me that your rumor and the others on here saying the reds could trade for him might just be true.

ramp101
04-18-2006, 01:11 AM
Willis isnt available right now

KronoRed
04-18-2006, 01:11 AM
How was the game ramp? ;)

WVPacman
04-18-2006, 01:15 AM
I think Dunn is trying to hit a ball down one of those smoke stacks!!:laugh:

Caveat Emperor
04-18-2006, 01:18 AM
The other day (when the board was down apparently), I heard a rumor on the radio about Dontrelle Willis being available. There was also another player they were supposedly making available, but I don't remember the name (I kinda went into the Homer Simpson mode when he hears the word "donuts").
Apparently the Reds/Marlins have been in contact with each other. The talking heads on the radio show were talking about Kearns to Marlins with a prospect.

Has anyone else heard about this rumor? If so, has any more been talked about it? I haven't had time to check any of the websites to see anything. I really thought there would have been something on here about it.

The other name was probably Miguel Cabrera -- and I'd kill to have either one on the Reds.

Fact is that Krono is absolutely right -- there is no package of players that the Reds can offer for Willis and/or Cabrera that wouldn't be immediately outbid by some team with a deeper farm system, like Arizona or LA. When the best the Reds have to offer, prospect wise, all are sitting at high-A ball or below (or Votto, who has yet to succeed above A ball), you're not going to win many bidding wars.

Besides -- the Marlins would be foolish to deal either player. If they're going to relocate to another city, then they'll want to have some marquee players to build a franchise around as opposed to building from scratch and saddling the new city with a completely dead ballclub.

WVPacman
04-18-2006, 01:20 AM
Hey you think were they want young talent they would trade Miguel Cabrera for EE and another player?? Just throwing that out there

CougarQuest
04-18-2006, 01:21 AM
The other name was probably Miguel Cabrera -- and I'd kill to have either one on the Reds.
When the best the Reds have to offer, prospect wise, all are sitting at high-A ball or below (or Votto, who has yet to succeed above A ball), you're not going to win many bidding wars.

Now that you mention it, I think it was Cabrera. Also, Votto's name came up and I think Homer's name also.

schroomytunes
04-18-2006, 01:22 AM
If I'm Krivsky, then I need to look at trying to upgrade the bullpen. Here are some moves to consider:

1)Demote Mike Burns and promote Ryan Wagner

2)As soon as Larue is ready, we must find a taker for Valentin, I think Ross will be a capable backup. We need to get a few prospects for him.

3) When Paul Wilson is ready let him go to long relief for awhile, and quite possibly be Rick White's replacement.

All in all I'm excited about our year so far, it shows promise in the early stages, our starting pitching has been good, but our defense and bullpen has been poor, so we need to be on the lookout for talent.

WVPacman
04-18-2006, 01:25 AM
CougarQuest, here is the supposed rumor going around!!!




http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44982

CougarQuest
04-18-2006, 01:27 AM
CougarQuest, here is the supposed rumor going around!!!




http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44982
Thanks! :thumbup:
(how did I miss that?)

WVPacman
04-18-2006, 01:29 AM
Thanks! :thumbup:
(how did I miss that?)


LOL,its late bud;) thats why im getting off here

Talk to you guys later!!!!!

ramp101
04-18-2006, 01:50 AM
How was the game ramp? ;)
alot of fun actually... Ill talk more about it in the other thread

dont want to hijack this one

paulrichjr
04-18-2006, 02:02 AM
Gammons article from Saturday on ESPN Insider... Enjoy

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter#20060415

Marlins building a contenderposted: Saturday, April 15, 2006

Jeffrey Loria is not selling the Florida Marlins and has no intention of putting them up for contraction. He won a World Series in 2003 and three years in a row put a team on the field that legitimately competed for the playoffs while doing business in JoePro Stadium.
When he had lost enough money waiting for a ballpark, he explained to fans what he was going to do: break up the 2003-05 team and start all over again, in a more reasoned manner than Wayne Huizenga, who cycloned the 1997 world champions less than a week after they beat the Indians. GM Larry Beinfest made one deal after another for pitching and young players, paring payroll down -- to $15 million while he tries to threaten enough moves to find some acceptable financing plan in South Florida.

Oh yes, and he's not giving Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera away. "I heard all this stuff this week, so I called them," said one GM Thursday. "I got an abrupt 'no.'" Beinfest, who recently signed a three-year extension, and assistant GM Mike Hill, who declined an opportunity to be interviewed for his hometown Cincinnati GM job, have not placed one outgoing call to discuss trading their two stars. "Why would they?" asked Mets GM Omar Minaya. "I'm telling you, they've got a lot of talent there. They are going to get good again in a hurry."

Compare the Marlins and their future to some of the other second-divison teams. Kansas City at $41M? No comparison. Even though Tampa Bay has some extraordinary positional talent, its previous administration busted on pitching. Beinfest's point is "that there is no real difference between losing 95 and 105 games," so why tie up Reggie Sanders, Mark Grudzielanek and Doug Mientkiewicz and still lose 95-110 games instead of developing young players? What the Marlins are doing is what the Indians did, the model of Gene Orza's model when he opposed a floor to spending because he appreciated that sometimes small-market teams need to take payroll to the bottom to build back for a run at the top.

Beinfest said from the beginning, "the fastest way back is with young pitching." With 24-year old Dontrelle Willis, they have have as many as a dozen prime arms. And that doesn't include what they consider to be an extraordinary 2005 pitching draft, starting with Chris Volstad, Aaron Thompson, Ryan Tucker, et al.

Jason Vargas and Scott Olsen are already in the rotation. Ricky Nolasco, the prize in the Juan Pierre deal, and Josh Johnson are preparing for the rotation by working out of the bullpen, with eyes on becoming starters in July. Carlos Martinez is a third flamethrower developing in the 'pen; Martinez, Johnson and Nolasco had 17 strikeouts in their first 11 2/3 innings. Yusmeiro Petit threw a shutout Thursday. Anibal Sanchez is up to 94-95 mph in Double-A. "The arms they unveiled this spring were really good, the best," says one AL GM.

The Marlins think they are halfway to a pennant-contending team in the field. Cabrera, turning 23, is a potential Hall of Famer. They believe shortstop Hanley Ramirez, 22, is a potential superstar, as is right fielder Jeremy Hermida, who's also 22. Left fielder Josh Willingham can hit. Period. Minaya maintains first baseman Mike Jacobs "will hit 20 or 25 homers." The fact that Ramirez and Willingham are off to good starts (1.102 and 1.105 OPS, respectively) has helped assuage the fan base that understands the theory of what's happening.

When Beinfest and manager Joe Girardi have figured out who are keepers, they will trade pitching for positional players. For now, they won't deal pitching unless they get potential stars, which is why they backed off the Tampa Bay deal for Joey Gathright.

They now are at the point where they do not need to move salary. "We have to be very sensitive to the fans we have here," says one Marlin official. "If we get a park or move, we need attractions."

Now, if they believe that Nolasco, Johnson and others can form the core of a rotation similar to that of Willis, Josh Beckett, A.J. Burnett and Brad Penny, they might explore a Willis deal in July, or over the winter. They do not need cash, so any deal would have to include two prime positional prospects: center field, catcher, a major bat -- and a top pitching prospect. Only the Dodgers and Angels would seem to be in a position to even discuss that kind of a trade.

The Beckett deal was different, because they needed to unload $18M in Mike Lowell. But they still got two of Boston's six best prospects in Ramirez and Sanchez. Willis would only be moved if the deal completed most of the remaining parts of the 2008 puzzle.

There is no need to move payroll now. Revenue-sharing will take care of any paper losses.

"We're fine here," says Beinfest. "We knew exactly what had to be done, we're doing it and we're very enthusiastic about what we're doing. Don't worry about us."


Red Sox cut some smart deals
First there was the Bronson Arroyo contract, which was below market and essentially got him traded for Wily Mo Pena. Then came David Ortiz, followed by Coco Crisp. "Those were all very favorable deals for the club," says one AL GM. "Oh, I know that Ortiz is a DH, but he is the face of the franchise, if not baseball, he's 29 and he means so much to the franchise. They're paying Crisp, who is 26, $18 million for the same four years that the Yankees are paying Johnny Damon $52 million. But what's most amazing is that they got options that can buy out free-agent years from Ortiz and Crisp. In today's market, that's amazing."
Some have suggested that Boston should forget the middle of its order, forget his presence, forget how little they paid him without one whimper and that they overpaid for Ortiz at $12.5M a year. But DHs are difficult to quantify; the only DHs who had enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting title last season were Ortiz, Travis Hafner and Carl Everett. This season Jim Thome is an everyday DH ($14.2M), while Jason Giambi is, for all intents and purposes, a DH making $20.4M.

Which is a problem for the Indians. They have Hafner signed to a modest $3.95M contract for 2007, with a 2008 option at $4.95M before he becomes a free agent at 31. As Theo Epstein's relationship with the players was a significant factor in getting his players signed, so, too has Mark Shapiro's honesty and integrity allowed him to get most of Cleveland's core players signed to modest long-term deals.

In all likelihood, Shapiro will approach Hafner this winter about an extension, and Hafner's agents at Legacy Sports will try to remind him his place in the offensive world. He is every bit in the same league as Ortiz, Thome and Giambi.

Go back to the beginning of the 2004 season and run the Hafner/Ortiz comparison through Thursday's games: DESIGNATED MASHERS
AB HR RBI BA OPS
Ortiz 1,217 92 296 .302 1.002
Hafner 1,002 67 226 .310 1.023


Remember, Hafner was beaned last season and missed nearly a month, he did not have Manny Ramirez or what was close to the best front four in the game as Ortiz did last season. There are ballpark factors. All of which add up to the fact that Hafner is one of the American League's most dominant offensive forces, who in 2009, two years older than Ortiz was when he signed this extension, will get his due.


**********
If you go back to the 1985 season, not one team has won the World Series with a single player making as much as 16 percent of its total payroll. Granted, that is a little deceptive, because Barry Bonds comprised more than 20 percent of the Giants' 2002 payroll, and they had a 5-0 lead in Game 6 in Anaheim, nine outs from winning the series when the bullpen collapsed. Manny Ramirez comprised 15.8 percent of the 2004 Red Sox payroll.

There are 19 teams this season that have a player making more than 16 percent of their payrolls. Of course, that includes Dontrelle Willis making $4.35M of Florida's $15M payroll.


**********
One of the things that has impressed the Cubs most about Matt Murton is that he has attached himself to Greg Maddux to learn about how pitchers think and approach hitters. "Murton wants to learn everything," says one Cubs coach.

With Bruce Sutter entering the Hall of Fame in July having changed the sport with the split-fingered fastball he learned from Fred Martin, Cubs pitching coach Larry Rothschild asks, "Is Maddux the only pitcher to change the game by introducing two pitches?" Maddux throws a fastball in that runs back over the corner and an inside changeup. Probably not.


**********
Cesar Izturis is approximately two weeks from returning to the Dodgers, a miraculous recovery from Tommy John surgery. With Rafael Furcal and Jeff Kent in place in the middle of the diamond, the club has asked him to break back in as a super-utility player, which includes playing the outfield. Izturis has told friends he has no intention of risking reinjuring the elbow by trying to make a different throw from the outfield and eventually wants to be traded. Because he has a $5.5M option for next year, this is a distinct possibility. Izturis believes he will eventually end up in Boston with good friend Alex Cora.


**********
Bobby Cox has a pitching staff that is again near the bottom of the league in strikeouts and a bullpen that has gone through interminable problems. But Cox never gets deterred, and believes that once Macay McBride is back and healthy that the bullpen will sort itself out. Of far greater concern is the rotation, where Chuck James may have to step in alongside Kyle Davies. Only the Orioles and Royals had worse staff walk-strikeout ratios than Atlanta through Friday, a rather glaring indication of the decline of the stuff of the Braves pitchers.


**********
So as of Saturday morning, there were six pitching staffs with ERAs under 4.00 and 15 over 5.00. Where are all the yahoos who hollered last season when there was a slight decline in runs and homers that it was all about steroids? Josh Beckett, Curt Schilling and Dontrelle Willis 1-2-3 in VORP?


**********
David Pinto's Baseball Musings remains the best baseball site on the Internet, but I owe him untold thanks for linking the Newark Star-Ledger story on Pat DiNizio, the fabulous one-time front man for the Smithereens. DiNizio, who once ran for the U.S. Senate in New Jersey, has, at 50, signed on to try out with the independent Somerset Patriots. As someone who is returning to music and putting out a CD this summer, my appreciation for DiNizio -- whom I met more than 20 years ago through my dear friend Gray Russell -- is deep-rooted.


**********
Chris Capuano has developed into one of the better left-handed starters in the game. He won 18 games last season and was fourth among MLB lefties in strikeouts behind Johan Santana, Randy Johnson and Doug Davis. This season the highly-competitive pride of Springfield, Mass, has fanned 14 in 12 1/3 innings. The Duke graduate also fascinates his teammates. It seems Capuano now sits next to Tomo Ohka on bus rides so as to learn Japanese.

savafan
04-18-2006, 03:03 AM
The latest rumor as I'm hearing it:

Reds get Willis and Cabrera

Marlins get Kearns, Encarnacion, Wagner, Elizardo Ramirez and Votto

KronoRed
04-18-2006, 03:05 AM
The can get more and more closer to the majors elsewhere.

We won't be in the Willis sweepstakes when they kick off, we don't have the chips..sadly :(

ramp101
04-18-2006, 03:24 AM
The latest rumor as I'm hearing it:

Reds get Willis and Cabrera

Marlins get Kearns, Encarnacion, Wagner, Elizardo Ramirez and Votto

with all due respect sava, whoever you are hearing it from is very very wrong

Miguel Cabrera is making $500,000 this year

DTrain might be moved at the deadline, nothing would surprise me at this point... I just seriously seriously seriously(thats 3x for you scoring at home), that either is moved

the fanbase of 11 would be cut to 6. it would be quite sad

Topcat
04-18-2006, 04:55 AM
No way the Reds get Cabrerra and Willis for the 5 players Sava claims as the rumor. No offence but Bailey, Wood, Kearns, EE and Denofrio "might" get it done and that may be a stretch.

BrooklynRedz
04-18-2006, 09:38 AM
No way the Reds get Cabrerra and Willis for the 5 players Sava claims as the rumor. No offence but Bailey, Wood, Kearns, EE and Denofrio "might" get it done and that may be a stretch.

Vincent Denofrio? I don't know...he's a good actor! :evil:

MartyFan
04-18-2006, 09:52 AM
Compare the Marlins and their future to some of the other second-divison teams. Kansas City at $41M? No comparison. Even though Tampa Bay has some extraordinary positional talent, its previous administration busted on pitching. Beinfest's point is "that there is no real difference between losing 95 and 105 games," so why tie up Reggie Sanders, Mark Grudzielanek and Doug Mientkiewicz and still lose 95-110 games instead of developing young players? What the Marlins are doing is what the Indians did, the model of Gene Orza's model when he opposed a floor to spending because he appreciated that sometimes small-market teams need to take payroll to the bottom to build back for a run at the top.

Beinfest said from the beginning, "the fastest way back is with young pitching."


Which is the exact model the Reds should have followed under Bowden...if that would have been the case he probably would have been wearing his pleather pants here in cincy.

M2
04-18-2006, 10:16 AM
I disagree with those who say the Reds couldn't win the bidding on a guy like Willis. If Cincinnati puts Austin Kearns, Homer Bailey and Ryan Wagner on the table, I'd like to see another team pony up a better offer.

Also, if the Marlins were interested in Kearns, that would leave Josh Willingham disenfranchised (again). He'd look awful good playing 1B for the Reds.

savafan
04-18-2006, 11:23 AM
It seems like every team has a rumor for Willis and Cabrera right now.

Caveat Emperor
04-18-2006, 11:49 AM
I disagree with those who say the Reds couldn't win the bidding on a guy like Willis. If Cincinnati puts Austin Kearns, Homer Bailey and Ryan Wagner on the table, I'd like to see another team pony up a better offer.

Also, if the Marlins were interested in Kearns, that would leave Josh Willingham disenfranchised (again). He'd look awful good playing 1B for the Reds.

See, the problem with that particular collection of players is that they're all on different timetables. Assuming Kearns continues to rake (and that's a big assumption), he's going to get expensive next year, before the Marlins are planning to "arrive" in 2008. Homer Bailey is on the 2008 timetable, but 2008 would likely be his first full season in the bigs. Not that big of a deal, but there are teams out there that can offer pitchers more projectible and on a better development cycle (i.e. better shot of being major-league quality in 2008) than Homer.

Ideally, I'd assume the Marlins want players who both aren't currently expensive and who won't get expensive until about the time they're putting a run together. If they're going to have to drop $4-$5 million on Austin Kearns, they're better off just holding onto Willis for another year and paying him the $7 or $8 he'll command in arbitration. It's not like his value is going to diminish (barring injury, of course). Using this as a basis, Edwin Encarnacion is probably the better inclusion in the deal, but I'm not sure his value is high enough to hold the deal together at this point. If he continues to develop, who knows.

As for Ryan Wagner -- at this point, he'd be a throw in to a deal. His value is probably negligible because I'd wager the feeling around baseball is that the Reds are getting closer and closer every day to just saying "Screw it" with him and dealing him away for nothing. His timetable right now is a big "?" because it's going to take someone who knows how to coach pitching some time to get whatever is wrong with him straightened out.

That's my take, at least.

savafan
04-18-2006, 11:53 AM
If they're going to have to drop $4-$5 million on Austin Kearns, they're better off just holding onto Willis for another year and paying him the $7 or $8 he'll command in arbitration.

If there's any truth to this, I'd imagine the Marlins line of thinking has to include flipping Kearns to another team in a trade as well.

Falls City Beer
04-18-2006, 12:42 PM
I agree with M2. Just because the Reds' deal can be trumped in terms of quantity, or even quality, doesn't mean that said greater package will be the one which is accepted or most desired. All you can do is bargain persistently.

traderumor
04-18-2006, 12:58 PM
On Cabrera, I would think in a better situation, he's an outfielder, not a third baseman. Based on what I saw last night, his range seems to suck at 3b.

flyer85
04-18-2006, 12:59 PM
On Cabrera, I would think in a better situation, he's an outfielder, not a third baseman. His range sucks.He's bad in the OF as well, just barely rated above Dunn in Dewan's Bible IIRC.

Falls City Beer
04-18-2006, 01:06 PM
On Cabrera, I would think in a better situation, he's an outfielder, not a third baseman. Based on what I saw last night, his range seems to suck at 3b.

He's a brutal defender, but that's why God made 1st base.

traderumor
04-18-2006, 01:10 PM
He's a brutal defender, but that's why God made 1st base.Hey we need one of them....oh wait, we have another bad defender who should be playing there but isn't...we could have a contest and whoever drops the most fly balls during BP gets 1b :)

KronoRed
04-18-2006, 02:01 PM
I wouldn't even try for Cabrera, Willis would be the key, and as a pitcher (and a leftie) I see other teams throwing in our old friend 'pile o cash'

I still don't see how we match that.

ramp101
04-18-2006, 02:13 PM
On Cabrera, I would think in a better situation, he's an outfielder, not a third baseman. Based on what I saw last night, his range seems to suck at 3b.
completely wrong

Cabrera is a very good 3b with excellent range and an absolute gun

you dont want him in the outfield.... the term train wreck comes to mind

flyer85
04-18-2006, 02:25 PM
while he isn't Rolen he does seem to hold his own and 3b and so far in his career shows to be an above average 3b, very unlike his OF play.

traderumor
04-18-2006, 03:17 PM
while he isn't Rolen he does seem to hold his own and 3b and so far in his career shows to be an above average 3b, very unlike his OF play.
Changing your tune, now flyer? ;)

Ramp, I know you see him play more than I do, but the two balls that got by him last night, esp. Edwin's double, showed slow of foot and slow reaction. Maybe he had a bad game, but from the scouting reports I remember, he just isn't a very good defender no matter where you put him.

ramp101
04-18-2006, 05:13 PM
he has excellent reaction time, and is an overall better 3b than Mike Lowell(who won the gold glove last year)

he just had a rough game(that and that one down the line took a funky bounce)

Hubba
04-18-2006, 05:55 PM
Hey we need one of them....oh wait, we have another bad defender who should be playing there but isn't...we could have a contest and whoever drops the most fly balls during BP gets 1b :)
You talking about EE?

BRM
04-18-2006, 05:59 PM
You talking about EE?

I believe he's referring to Dunn.

ramp101
04-18-2006, 09:04 PM
...and of course Cabrera muffs one lol

traderumor
04-18-2006, 10:05 PM
You talking about EE?Uh, no.

Ohioballplayer
04-18-2006, 10:20 PM
I think we are all forgetting, Willis and Cabrera are due some big paydays in the near future, is Castellini ready to pony up?

Prospects and Cash?????

I think not!!:beerme:

buckeyenut
04-19-2006, 06:14 AM
I have a hunch Castellini would pay up for those guys. There are ways to make that work without much problem.

These are the types of guys you get now and worry about money later. They are that good.

TC81190
04-19-2006, 06:03 PM
After seeing Milton and our savior Harangatang blow up today, we really, really need pitching. I'd kill for Willis, especially if we got Miggy too for the low price of Kearns, EdE, and Wagner.

GAC
04-19-2006, 08:08 PM
Willis isnt available right now

Losing him would take your team payroll under 10 mil wouldn't it ramp? ;)

ramp101
04-20-2006, 02:36 AM
Losing him would take your team payroll under 10 mil wouldn't it ramp? ;)
no, not under $10mil... close though

Nugget
04-20-2006, 03:23 AM
But Willis lost the game. Admittedly Harang needed help but Willis seems to be one of those guys who may be at the peak of price and someone will overpay to get. him. Guys like Willis need to be acquired either at draft or during the minor leagues. If the REDS are going to acquire an existing Major Leaguer they will get better value out of an Arroyo type trade than a Willis one.