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Jpup
04-18-2006, 12:03 PM
From his ESPN chat today:


Dave, Sacramento: Hi Joe, I love your work, but I'm wondering why you won't read "Moneyball?" It's short, readable, and the pages won't bite, I promise.

SportsNation Joe Morgan: (11:27 AM ET ) I haven't read a lot of books. I didn't read Canseco's book or Game of Shadows. I'm not sure the last baseball book I read. I form my own opinions because I played the game and have 40 years of experience in the game. There isn't much that others can teach me about the game. I've been taught by the best .. the players I played with and against. I know what it takes to win out there. I've seen players who are winners and just good players. I don't get enjoyment out of reading baseball books. I'd rather watch a sci-fi movie on TV.

He also had good words to say about GABP:


Mark (Chicago): Of all the new ballparks sprouting up around the country, which one would you most want to play in?

SportsNation Joe Morgan: Probably Cincinnati. Not just because I played there. It just seems like a great park to hit in. But then again, so do so many of the other new parks. They are just built that way now. Houston is almost a joke how easy it is to hit in. But I would choose Cincinnati. I like red! I haven't seen the new Busch Stadium yet.

gonelong
04-18-2006, 12:32 PM
Quite honestly you'd think he would read it just so he could have an educated opinion on it. Its not like it doesn't ever come up in conversation with him. He gets asked about it quite a bit I am sure.



There isn't much that others can teach me about the game.


Baseball (sport) is one of the few topics that lots of people think they have completely mastered. You'd never hear a Dr, Lawyer, Clergyman, accountant, programmer, carpenter, etc. say something like this.

If you are unwilling to listen to others approach to things, I can tell you with certainty that you have plenty to learn no matter what the subject matter.

GL

flyer85
04-18-2006, 12:49 PM
"Baseball - the ultimate cult of secret knowledge"

Caveat Emperor
04-18-2006, 12:53 PM
I'd rather watch a sci-fi movie on TV.

"You geeks do what you do best -- fire phasers and blow up the Death Star. Stop messing with baseball and exposing my ignorance!"

Strikes Out Looking
04-18-2006, 01:21 PM
The surprising thing about his not reading any baseball books is, he was (IMO) one of the smartest of the BRM.

traderumor
04-18-2006, 01:39 PM
I couldn't tell you the last baseball book I read cover to cover myself. Started a few, read some of Moneyball. But I would never use that as a springboard to say "I've watched the game for over 30 years and have formed my own opinions."

I learn new stuff about the game every day from various angles, and I don't think that is because I was never a major leaguer, but because it is the nature of the game. With this attitude, Joe limits himself to knowing as much about baseball as he already knows, whereas if he used other resources, his knowledge would know no bounds.

KronoRed
04-18-2006, 01:57 PM
"Baseball - the ultimate cult of secret knowledge"
And former catchers know the most.

WMR
04-18-2006, 02:04 PM
Joe really sounds ignorant... thing is, I bet there's a huge percentage of the "old guard" in baseball that feels the exact same way, we're just not as well aware of it b/c they're not in Joe's position of speaking publicly about baseball so often.

flyer85
04-18-2006, 02:10 PM
Joe really sounds ignorant... thing is, I bet there's a huge percentage of the "old guard" in baseball that feels the exact same way, we're just not as well aware of it b/c they're not in Joe's position of speaking publicly about baseball so often.once you've accumulated all the secret knowledge what else can there be to know about baseball?

Of course we all know what happens in a competetive world when you decide to stand still.

RedsManRick
04-18-2006, 02:39 PM
His personal self-worth, like many "old guard" types in any profession, is tied up in the idea/fact that by virtue of their experience they have special knowledge. If that knowledge is devalued, let alone flat out wrong, they may feel that they are personally devalued, have nothing left to contribute, and will be thrown by the wayside. That's a pretty terrifying realization, whether it's conscious or not. While it's extremely frustrating, it's somewhat understandable.

If Joe Morgan is not a baseball expert, then what/who is he? I imagine this is particularly poingant in organizations like sports, where all he has left is his experiential knowledge, and while playing, that knowledge and instinct helped him to be very successful. It's somewhat sad that he is unable or unwilling to recognize that the micro level knowledge he has accumulated doesn't necessarily apply to the macro scales on which he is forced to apply it as a commentator.

M2
04-18-2006, 02:49 PM
The weird thing is Joe Morgan's literally arguing against all the stuff that made him an outstanding player. It's like he'd have rather been Rennie Stennett than himself.

Yachtzee
04-18-2006, 03:18 PM
There isn't much that others can teach me about the game.

Well, he might as well just pack it in right there. If there's not much more he can learn about the game, why bother? Might as well just take up golf.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-18-2006, 03:21 PM
I've learned more from this board than any book I've ever read.

Roy Tucker
04-18-2006, 03:43 PM
From his ESPN chat today:

"I form my own opinions because I played the game and have 40 years of experience in the game. There isn't much that others can teach me about the game."
I'm surprised he said this. The day I say this about my profession is probably the day they fire my butt.

Like M2 said, he was such an intelligent and efficient player and now he's against all that. Must be the inner conflict.

Johnny Footstool
04-18-2006, 03:44 PM
His personal self-worth, like many "old guard" types in any profession, is tied up in the idea/fact that by virtue of their experience they have special knowledge. If that knowledge is devalued, let alone flat out wrong, they may feel that they are personally devalued, have nothing left to contribute, and will be thrown by the wayside. That's a pretty terrifying realization, whether it's conscious or not. While it's extremely frustrating, it's somewhat understandable.

If Joe Morgan is not a baseball expert, then what/who is he? I imagine this is particularly poingant in organizations like sports, where all he has left is his experiential knowledge, and while playing, that knowledge and instinct helped him to be very successful. It's somewhat sad that he is unable or unwilling to recognize that the micro level knowledge he has accumulated doesn't necessarily apply to the macro scales on which he is forced to apply it as a commentator.

Dead on.

A lot of athletes tend towards this mindset. They believe their ability on the field gives them a special understanding of all facets of the game. While I can't dispute their knowledge of how to hit a curveball or how to turn a double play, they tend to be grossly misinformed when it comes to concepts like statistical analysis.

top6
04-18-2006, 03:55 PM
Baseball (sport) is one of the few topics that lots of people think they have completely mastered. You'd never hear a Dr, Lawyer, Clergyman, accountant, programmer, carpenter, etc. say something like this.
GLWhile I agree with almost everything you said, I am a lawyer and I can assure that I know plenty of lawyers who think that they know everything there is to know about the law and will tell you as much.

They are terrible lawyers.

M2
04-18-2006, 04:47 PM
While I agree with almost everything you said, I am a lawyer and I can assure that I know plenty of lawyers who think that they know everything there is to know about the law and will tell you as much.

They are terrible lawyers.

My dad, who's a lawyer, loves those folks. He maintains they're fundamentally lazy and easy to take to the cleaners.

RedsManRick
04-18-2006, 04:50 PM
Dead on.

A lot of athletes tend towards this mindset. They believe their ability on the field gives them a special understanding of all facets of the game. While I can't dispute their knowledge of how to hit a curveball or how to turn a double play, they tend to be grossly misinformed when it comes to concepts like statistical analysis.

Thansk Johnny. That's really where I was going with it. I'd love to hear Joe talk about footwork at 2B or how to read a pitcher when you're going to steal. He's surely an expert on those topics. But when it comes to roster formation, or the proper valuation of defense as it pertains to salary distribution, his experience does not give him any particular insight. Unfortunately he seems to have trouble understanding that distinction.

Johnny Footstool
04-18-2006, 04:59 PM
Unfortunately he seems to have trouble understanding that distinction.

Have you ever been in an argument with a "ballplayer" involving any of those things? As soon as you disagree with them, they immediately shriek, "Have you ever played the game?" Like if you haven't played professionally, you can't possibly understand the game. Of course, they're never satisfied when I tell them I played little league up through junior high. They usually follow it up with something ridiculous like, "I played two years for Cowley County Community College, so I know the game better than you."

I like to compare it to a musician who scoffs, "How dare you criticize my three-hour rock opera based on the life of President James Garfield? You don't even play guitar."

westofyou
04-18-2006, 05:01 PM
A ballplayer has two reputations, the first is amongst other ballplayers, the second is the one created by the press.

Johnny Evers

Joe isn't the first adult who doesn't read, I know more than a few, but he's the one who is letting the baseball press redefine his legacy.

WMR
04-18-2006, 07:12 PM
Didn't Tracy Jones play the game? I know that's always one of *his* strongest arguments for why he's correct...

paintmered
04-19-2006, 09:24 AM
Didn't Tracy Jones play the game? I know that's always one of *his* strongest arguments for why he's correct...

That's his only argument....

flyer85
04-19-2006, 09:31 AM
A retired sportswriter(HOF basketball writer, but he covered baseball at times) runs a NL rotisserie that I have played in for awhile.

to quote him


Russ Ortiz is off to an 0-2 start. Ortiz went
103-60 in seven seasons with San Francisco and
Atlanta. He's 5-13 since agreeing to a $33
million, four-year contract with the D'backs in
December 2004, with one victory in his last 15
starts.
(Isn't it telling how often fantasy owners --
often portrayed by sports writers as clueless
nerds -- are often smarter than MLB general
managers . . . and ALWAYS smarter than sports
writers? Ortiz, whom the brilliant Joe Garagiola
Jr. had just signed for $33M, WASN'T EVEN BROUGHT
UP in our 2005 Auction.

It is also interesting to note that he believes even though you cover a particular sport it doesn't mean you have greater knowledge about it than others do who follow the game as well. Consider him the anti-McCoy.

KronoRed
04-19-2006, 02:53 PM
That's his only argument....
Because he certainly didn't play it very well

GAC
04-19-2006, 08:16 PM
Like Joe is the first (or last) player who has said he has played the game? Don't know why some get so upset when a jock says this.

There are advantages to having played the game, especially at the level Joe has.

I bet if you asked most athletes/jocks about MoneyBall and sabermetrics they'd loook at you and scratch their head wondering what you're talking about.

Many accuse Joe of being an arrogant know-it-all.

Of course we've never seen that type of attitude expressed by fans who have never played the game have we? ;)

WMR
04-20-2006, 12:22 PM
Like Joe is the first (or last) player who has said he has played the game? Don't know why some get so upset when a jock says this.

There are advantages to having played the game, especially at the level Joe has.

I bet if you asked most athletes/jocks about MoneyBall and sabermetrics they'd loook at you and scratch their head wondering what you're talking about.

Many accuse Joe of being an arrogant know-it-all.

Of course we've never seen that type of attitude expressed by fans who have never played the game have we? ;)

There's a difference between scratching your head and wondering what someone is talking about and dismissing them and their thoughts altogether.

Joe is no longer an athlete. He's a former athlete who's being paid to enlighten other people about the game of baseball.

If he wanted to say, 'I don't know much about sabermetrics,' I don't think he'd be vilified one bit.

When he starts spouting off about the worthlessness of such information, he is spreading disinformation and should be called to the carpet on his comments.

flyer85
04-20-2006, 01:17 PM
Copernicus wasn't greeted with open arms either when he had data that changed some of the fundamental understanding of the universe we live in.

Just sayin'

RedsManRick
04-20-2006, 01:20 PM
Like Joe is the first (or last) player who has said he has played the game? Don't know why some get so upset when a jock says this.

There are advantages to having played the game, especially at the level Joe has.

I bet if you asked most athletes/jocks about MoneyBall and sabermetrics they'd loook at you and scratch their head wondering what you're talking about.

Many accuse Joe of being an arrogant know-it-all.

Of course we've never seen that type of attitude expressed by fans who have never played the game have we? ;)

You don't see GM's trying to claim to be experts on hitting or sliding merely because they've been in baseball for 40 years. So how does being a player for 20 years make Joe Morgan an expert on the validity of statistical analysis?

KronoRed
04-20-2006, 02:40 PM
When he starts spouting off about the worthlessness of such information, he is spreading disinformation and should be called to the carpet on his comments.
:clap: :clap:

GAC
04-20-2006, 08:22 PM
Where has Morgan said sabermetrics was worthless?

And a majority of GMs weren't former ballplayers.... and if they were, they weren't even close to the calibre of player a Joe Morgan was. ;)

I personally respect sabermetrics, and recognize it's worth and contribution to the game of baseball. But like Morgan, have my disagreements. But I guess we should fire all announcers and color guys that have various disagreement with it, and don't bow at it's throne.

Morgan has made a few comments that have rankled sabermetricians (and I've not necessarily agreed with Joe), so now Joe is on their "hit" list and doesn't know what he's talking about.

For heavens sake! Don't ever be critical of sabermetrics.

I find that humorous. :lol: