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reds44
04-21-2006, 12:38 AM
Coffey works himself into jams, then works himself out of them.

flyer85
04-21-2006, 12:38 AM
No, he thought he hit a homer. Both went to the backstop.

It was odd.a few too many 12 oz curls for Ueck tonight?

paintmered
04-21-2006, 12:38 AM
after 3.5 hours the 9th is here

Another reason for Marty not to love this team.

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:39 AM
after 3.5 hours the 9th is here
Lets all say a great THANK YOU to Dave Williams and Tomo Ohka for keeping us here

KySteveH
04-21-2006, 12:39 AM
What the hell is John Morrell? The poor man's JTM?

griffeyfreak4
04-21-2006, 12:39 AM
Cmon Offense

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:39 AM
Brandon 'Babe Ruth' Phillips at the plate

CincyRedsFan30
04-21-2006, 12:39 AM
I think the ump is ready to head home as much as Marty is.

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:39 AM
K's on a pitch that was not a strike

Reds Fanatic
04-21-2006, 12:40 AM
Phillips strikes out looking. 1 out.

reds44
04-21-2006, 12:40 AM
good pitch

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:40 AM
Rich up.

I disagree with him being in the game.

Gandalf the Red
04-21-2006, 12:40 AM
Coffey works himself into jams, then works himself out of them.

An essential prerequisite for becoming a closer on this team.

paintmered
04-21-2006, 12:40 AM
What the hell is John Morrell? The poor man's JTM?

Pork, the other white meat.

KySteveH
04-21-2006, 12:41 AM
God those under shirts look hideous.

Matt700wlw
04-21-2006, 12:41 AM
This is like an american league game.....TOO DAMN LOOOOOOOOOONG!!

:)

griffeyfreak4
04-21-2006, 12:41 AM
Any action in the pen, or is it Coffey in the 9th?

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:41 AM
If baseball with to 7 inning games all games would in in under 2 hours

SteelSD
04-21-2006, 12:42 AM
Pork, the other white meat.

Lips and...well...you don't wanna' know...

Reds Fanatic
04-21-2006, 12:42 AM
Aurilia flies out to center. 2 outs.

2001MUgrad
04-21-2006, 12:42 AM
Dang.. I know on the west coast swing I'll only be able to watch like 2 innings of those games if this is any indication.

KySteveH
04-21-2006, 12:42 AM
Any action in the pen, or is it Coffey in the 9th?
Coffey is for closers.

Gandalf the Red
04-21-2006, 12:42 AM
Any action in the pen, or is it Coffey in the 9th?

If only Hammond was available ;)

reds44
04-21-2006, 12:42 AM
<--------- still has no idea why they took out EE in the double switch. Why not take out Javy?

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:43 AM
<--------- still has no idea why they took out EE in the double switch. Why not take out Javy?
Exactly.

Why is EE the designated "remove for Rich" guy?

WebScorpion
04-21-2006, 12:43 AM
Will we get a second cup of Coffey?

paintmered
04-21-2006, 12:43 AM
<--------- still has no idea why they took out EE in the double switch. Why not take out Javy?

See Dent, Bucky Effen

Reds Fanatic
04-21-2006, 12:43 AM
Freel strikes out swinging. 12-8 Reds mid 9th.

KySteveH
04-21-2006, 12:44 AM
We only have 2 backup catchers left, of course. Better safe than sorry.

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:44 AM
See Dent, Bucky Effen
Also Narron, Jerry

Big Klu
04-21-2006, 12:44 AM
Rich up.

I disagree with him being in the game.

I'm OK with it, because the Reds only have a few relief pitchers that are semi-reliable. With the #9 spot in the order due up in the eighth, a double-switch was in order so that they didn't have to dip into the pen again. (Unless you want Coffey to bat! :eek: )

Now if they start the bottom of the ninth with a new pitcher, then I agree with you completely!

KySteveH
04-21-2006, 12:45 AM
I like watching relievers bat. Scott Sullivan comes to mind.

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:45 AM
But Val could have been switched out for LaRue or that other guy, leaving EE in.

WebScorpion
04-21-2006, 12:46 AM
Yay! More Coffey!

Cedric
04-21-2006, 12:46 AM
Also Narron, Jerry

EdE has 7 errors already this year. Yes he will be a better fielder than Rich, yes he is a better baseball player. But he's not been as steady this season yet. It's really not much of an issue.

edabbs44
04-21-2006, 12:46 AM
I cannot get over how much BPhil looks like Pokey. Facial resemblance only.

GridironGrace
04-21-2006, 12:46 AM
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Coffey in a save situation due to last inning ????

hint hint

Gandalf the Red
04-21-2006, 12:47 AM
But Val could have been switched out for LaRue or that other guy, leaving EE in.

/Vin Scully voice: "Interestingly enough, 'That Other Guy' is David Ross's real name."/

Reds Fanatic
04-21-2006, 12:47 AM
Koskie pops out to 1st. 1 out.

GridironGrace
04-21-2006, 12:47 AM
how many posts is the biggest game thread this season?

indyred
04-21-2006, 12:47 AM
coffee earning the closer gig tonight

flyer85
04-21-2006, 12:47 AM
Coffey really has command of that circle change, every one had been down and on the outer part of the plate

reds44
04-21-2006, 12:47 AM
2 more java

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:48 AM
EdE has 7 errors already this year. Yes he will be a better fielder than Rich, yes he is a better baseball player. But he's not been as steady this season yet. It's really not much of an issue.
Disagree, EE will reach things Rich won't come close too.

Matt700wlw
04-21-2006, 12:48 AM
Coffey really has command of that circle change, every one had been down and on the outer part of the plate

Thank you Mario Soto.

Cedric
04-21-2006, 12:48 AM
Disagree, EE will reach things Rich won't come close too.

Disagree with what? I said the same thing you just said.

doug flynn
04-21-2006, 12:48 AM
Also Narron, Jerry

Also see fielding percentage.

WebScorpion
04-21-2006, 12:49 AM
I cannot get over how much BPhil looks like Pokey. Facial resemblance only.
...and the crooked hat, just not as extreme. :laugh:

flyer85
04-21-2006, 12:49 AM
Thank you Mario Soto.it gives him a pitch to get the lefties out

Roy Tucker
04-21-2006, 12:49 AM
Hi kids.

Big night for the Redlegs.

GridironGrace
04-21-2006, 12:49 AM
just looked

opening day had 1427 posts

on pace to break that b4 this one goes dormant

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:49 AM
Disagree that it's not much of an issue, the other day he put Rich in for Phillips.

It's concerning.

CincyRedsFan30
04-21-2006, 12:49 AM
Freel again.

indyred
04-21-2006, 12:49 AM
single

WMR
04-21-2006, 12:49 AM
that's a double when Griff is in center

Reds Fanatic
04-21-2006, 12:49 AM
Moeller singles to center.

Cedric
04-21-2006, 12:49 AM
it gives him a pitch to get the lefties out

Exactly. It's a very important pitch for Todd that I don't remember him having. Was that something he's always had?

Big Klu
04-21-2006, 12:49 AM
But Val could have been switched out for LaRue or that other guy, leaving EE in.

Good point...hadn't thought of that. It only would have made a difference of one spot in the batting order.

Unless...they wanted Rich's bat in the game in the ninth. (Just playing devil's advocate.) I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm OK with Rich as a player. I think that he is an asset to the team, now that he has accepted his role as utility infielder.

reds44
04-21-2006, 12:50 AM
Coffey working himself into another jam.

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:50 AM
Hey Roy :wave:

indyred
04-21-2006, 12:50 AM
probally a 2 bagger with JR out there

GridironGrace
04-21-2006, 12:50 AM
WRAP this up Coffey!!!!!!

Matt700wlw
04-21-2006, 12:50 AM
that's a double when Griff is in center

Are we going to do this everytime a ball is hit to centerfield? I sure hope not

flyer85
04-21-2006, 12:50 AM
The reason for the double switch was so he could leave Coffey in the game. I guess he wanted RA to hit rather than Ross/Larue

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:51 AM
1 more out :clap:

indyred
04-21-2006, 12:51 AM
one more TC........

Reds Fanatic
04-21-2006, 12:51 AM
Clark grounds into a 4-6 fielder's choice. 2 outs.

reds44
04-21-2006, 12:51 AM
1 more Coffey

griffeyfreak4
04-21-2006, 12:51 AM
1 more out :clap:
It's more like :pray:

paintmered
04-21-2006, 12:51 AM
1 more out.....

flyer85
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
Exactly. It's a very important pitch for Todd that I don't remember him having. Was that something he's always had?supposedly Soto taught him the pitch in the spring.

GridironGrace
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
im sure JR reads it off the bat good enough that thats not a 2B lol

freel didnt jump right at the ball like JR would have

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
Dent looks a little like Jack

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
supposedly Soto taught him the pitch in the spring.
Can he teach it to all of them? :D

paintmered
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
And this one belongs to the Reds!! :beerme:

Big Klu
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
http://www.greengiant.com/products/images/gg_corn.jpg

KySteveH
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
Exactly. It's a very important pitch for Todd that I don't remember him having. Was that something he's always had?
I'm not sure that's what it is. I think it's a forkball, not a circle change. Not that it matters what you call it.

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
http://www.retrojunction.com/shop/images/products/good_coffee_sign.jpg

edabbs44
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
Game time. Go Reds.

GG sounded like Frankie Valli there.

CincyRedsFan30
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
Another nice comeback, no thanks to Dave Williams!

doug flynn
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
EE will get to more balls the RA, but Richie will catch what he gets to. That's important if your an old school manager.

reds44
04-21-2006, 12:53 AM
And this one belongs to the Reds!!!!

WMR
04-21-2006, 12:53 AM
Williams already has a change-up... he just thinks it's a fastball

Reds Fanatic
04-21-2006, 12:53 AM
Hardy flies out. Reds win 12-8!!!

paintmered
04-21-2006, 12:53 AM
I'm not sure that's what it is. I think it's a forkball, not a circle change. Not that it matters what you call it.

I wonder if his brother can shed some light on it for us.

edabbs44
04-21-2006, 12:53 AM
Another nice comeback, no thanks to Dave Williams!

Actually there wouldn't have been a need for a comeback if DWill didn't pitch.

Boston Red
04-21-2006, 12:53 AM
Coffee's ERA goes below 1.00 with that out. Impressive.

Matt700wlw
04-21-2006, 12:53 AM
Yay! More Coffey!


"Jim never has a second cup of Coffee at home..."

griffeyfreak4
04-21-2006, 12:54 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Atta boy Coffey

flyer85
04-21-2006, 12:54 AM
Can he teach it to all of them? :Dit sure helps if you can get a fastball up there in the 90s. Williams fastball is a changeup.

indyred
04-21-2006, 12:54 AM
any chance SOTO is the Reds pitching coach by the end of the year......

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 12:54 AM
Actually there wouldn't have been a need for a comeback if DWill didn't pitch.
Game is shorter and less exciting without Dave

Gandalf the Red
04-21-2006, 12:54 AM
Coffee's ERA goes below 1.00 with that out. Impressive.

"Most impressive."

GridironGrace
04-21-2006, 12:54 AM
Great Game Guys

SEE ya later!

CincyRedsFan30
04-21-2006, 12:55 AM
Actually there wouldn't have been a need for a comeback if DWill didn't pitch.

But he wasn't a part of the comeback. ;)

Pretty much everyone else contributed to the effort.

THNDRacket
04-21-2006, 12:55 AM
EE, unlike Hatteberg, has no problem catching the ball, just throwing it.

flyer85
04-21-2006, 12:55 AM
The thing about Coffey is he is learning how to pitch. Last year all he did was pump 2 seamers. This year he uses all three of his pitches no matter the count.

doug flynn
04-21-2006, 12:55 AM
"Jim never has a second cup of Coffee at home..."

No, but Williams makes us all feel like we had the fish...

SteelSD
04-21-2006, 12:56 AM
I'm not sure that's what it is. I think it's a forkball, not a circle change. Not that it matters what you call it.

I've seen nothing but fastballs and split finger fastballs from Coffey this season.

Announcers keep calling it a changeup, but the downward biting movement and velocity identifies it as something else. And Coffey has always had a splitter (but didn't use it last year). Until I see a circle change grip on replay, I'm going to assume that folks are mistaking the splitter for a straight change. I'm not saying that Coffey hasn't incorporated a straight change, but I've yet to see evidence of it.

reds44
04-21-2006, 12:56 AM
Tell you one thing, this was graphic explains the night tonight well.


http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/mlb/images/team_logos/50x50/cin.gif 10-6 | Next: http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/mlb/images/team_logos/50x50/mil.gif
Youth Ain't No Excuse
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/G-FORCE7/f1f5e40e.jpghttp://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/G-FORCE7/e32c723c.jpg

Gandalf the Red
04-21-2006, 12:57 AM
No, but Williams makes us all feel like we had the fish...

And watching Dave Williams pitch, as much as anything, is what led to my drinking problem...

Gallen5862
04-21-2006, 12:59 AM
"This one belongs to the Reds." This was another great job by the offense.

Big Klu
04-21-2006, 01:00 AM
any chance SOTO is the Reds pitching coach by the end of the year......

Doubtful, IMO. If Vern Ruhle is unable to return due to health reasons, I think that Tom Hume will be given the job. Lee Tunnell may stay on as the bullpen coach, or he might go back to Louisville. If Tunnell goes back to Louisville, then Mario Soto might be brought on as bullpen coach.

KySteveH
04-21-2006, 01:02 AM
I've seen nothing but fastballs and split finger fastballs from Coffey this season.

Announcers keep calling it a changeup, but the downward biting movement and velocity identifies it as something else. And Coffey has always had a splitter (but didn't use it last year). Until I see a circle change grip on replay, I'm going to assume that folks are mistaking the splitter for a straight change. I'm not saying that Coffey hasn't incorporated a straight change, but I've yet to see evidence of it.

Maybe I'm technically incorrect, but I say "splitter" and "forkball" interchangeably. It's just a matter of degree, and your hand size/flexibility. Anyway, a bigger tumbler like Coffey's I'm more liable to call a forker, especially when it's used to change speeds. Same with P Wilson.

flyer85
04-21-2006, 01:02 AM
I've seen nothing but fastballs and split finger fastballs from Coffey this season. looks like a circle change to me because it move away from lefties more than it goes down whereas a splitter tends to go straight down. Coffey isn't getting a lot of swings and misses on it, just getting guys out on their front foot(which is what a true change does). Go back and look at the Koskie swing, that was a change(not a splitter).

KySteveH
04-21-2006, 01:06 AM
looks like a circle change to me because it move away from lefties more than it goes down whereas a splitter tends to go straight down. Coffey isn't getting a lot of swings and misses on it, just getting guys out on their front foot(which is what a true change does). Go back and look at the Koskie swing, that was a change(not a splitter).
A good splitter can have either tailing or cutting action, dpending on how well you can get a little pressure from either your index or middle finger. I agree that he is throwing it with the perfect velocity for a change of pace from his fastball, for sure.

Matt700wlw
04-21-2006, 01:10 AM
And watching Dave Williams pitch, as much as anything, is what led to my drinking problem...

"I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue"

RedsMan3203
04-21-2006, 01:10 AM
Im glad the youngsters showed up tonight... I know Willians didn't.

O'well.. Another one in the Win column. And a +4 on RS vs RA :p

WebScorpion
04-21-2006, 01:13 AM
Coffey doesn't get a save for that does he? The tying run was at the plate in the 8th... It's gotta be the go-ahead run doesn't it? That or 3 innings ... He really earned a save there IMO. Oh well, saves are a weird stat anyway.

Caveat Emperor
04-21-2006, 01:14 AM
I've seen nothing but fastballs and split finger fastballs from Coffey this season.

Announcers keep calling it a changeup, but the downward biting movement and velocity identifies it as something else. And Coffey has always had a splitter (but didn't use it last year). Until I see a circle change grip on replay, I'm going to assume that folks are mistaking the splitter for a straight change. I'm not saying that Coffey hasn't incorporated a straight change, but I've yet to see evidence of it.

He throws two varieties of splitter, that I've seen. Mostly based on speed -- he has a fast splitter that comes it around 90-92 MPH and absolutely dies in front of the plate; very much like Scott Williamson's used to do back when he was throwing gas.

He also has a splitter that comes in at around 86-88MPH that tends to stay around the knees and looks more like a change. It's still a splitter, like you said, the downward action and rotation give it away. However, by changing speeds effectively, he gives the same pitch two completely different looks.

Combine that with a fastball that can touch 95-95MPH, and it's an impressive arsenal when he mixes in his pitches and trusts his stuff.

SteelSD
04-21-2006, 01:20 AM
Maybe I'm technically incorrect, but I say "splitter" and "forkball" interchangeably. It's just a matter of degree, and your hand size/flexibility. Anyway, a bigger tumbler like Coffey's I'm more liable to call a forker, especially when it's used to change speeds. Same with P Wilson.

Not sure. The difference between a splitter and forkball is a bit more than just finger position. The forkball gets a bit more of a push off from the thumb and comes in at less than the 87 MPH range I've seen from Coffey's dancing pitch this season. For a splitter, you'll generally see a 5-7 MPH dropoff, which is right around the velocity differential I've seen from Coffey.


looks like a circle change to me because it move away from lefties more than it goes down whereas a splitter tends to go straight down. Coffey isn't getting a lot of swings and misses on it, just getting guys out on their front foot(which is what a true change does). Go back and look at the Koskie swing, that was a change(not a splitter).

Good observation and I'll take a look at the Koskie swing on mlbtv. It would help to have a gun on it because I'm looking for a 10 MPH differential (or more) from the change.

Now it's possible that Coffey incorporated a circle change, but I'd also think that, considering his size, he may be using a splitter AND a forkball (or a slower variant on the splitter) because the two grips are so closely related. But if he's suddenly developed a circle change and has anything near solid command of it, I'll be amazed and impressed.

But I'll take a look and see if I can freeze-frame to catch a circle change grip. If I can, I'll be ecstatic.

RedsMan3203
04-21-2006, 01:22 AM
You sound like a kid in the candy shop Steel

Big Klu
04-21-2006, 01:23 AM
Coffey doesn't get a save for that does he? The tying run was at the plate in the 8th... It's gotta be the go-ahead run doesn't it? That or 3 innings ... He really earned a save there IMO. Oh well, saves are a weird stat anyway.

Coffey came into the game with a five-run lead and two runners on base. In order to qualify for a save, Coffey would have had to come in with the tying run on base, at bat, or on deck.

The other two ways to qualify for a save are:

Come in to start the inning with no more than a three-run lead.

Pitch three effective innings.

WebScorpion
04-21-2006, 01:28 AM
Now it's possible that Coffey incorporated a circle change, but I'd also think that, considering his size, he may be using a splitter AND a forkball (or a slower variant on the splitter) because the two grips are so closely related. But if he's suddenly developed a circle change and has anything near solid command of it, I'll be amazed and impressed.

But I'll take a look and see if I can freeze-frame to catch a circle change grip. If I can, I'll be ecstatic.

During spring training I read that Coffey has always had a circle change, but it's never been effective. It was in an article talking about how Mario Soto was working with Todd (and other Reds' pitchers) to make it more effective.

Caveat Emperor
04-21-2006, 01:34 AM
During spring training I read that Coffey has always had a circle change, but it's never been effective. It was in an article talking about how Mario Soto was working with Todd (and other Reds' pitchers) to make it more effective.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060227/SPT04/602270369/1062/SPT


Coffey also has been working with Soto on the circle change-up.

"It's kind of the same as the one I threw before," Coffey said. "But little things make a big difference. It comes out of my hand just like a fastball. Guys knew it was coming but still swung and missed."

SteelSD
04-21-2006, 01:53 AM
During spring training I read that Coffey has always had a circle change, but it's never been effective. It was in an article talking about how Mario Soto was working with Todd (and other Reds' pitchers) to make it more effective.

And if I see Coffey making the "OK" sign over a ball on replay, I'm going to be very happy. Last season, Coffey didn't throw his splitter, appeared to have lost velocity on his fastball, and had nothing at all resembling a decent change.

He's a different guy this season. I just haven't seen the gun readings yet to tell me that he's got the velocity differential we'd normally see for a circle change.

But I'm always willing to be impressed (or wrong). Heck, I picked up Coffey on my FBB team in relief simply because his pitches are moving a LOT more this season than they were last. He's been "effectively wild" so far this year and I definitely want to find out why.

reds44
04-21-2006, 02:18 AM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/images/2006/04/20/aTc9guVB.jpg

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 04:41 AM
We're gonna need to score about 12 to win with that type of pitching
:thumbup:

Heath
04-21-2006, 10:03 AM
Sheesh - BPhil even has his helmet on crooked.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 11:12 AM
The night after, my 2 cents. I saw those 15 dingers Phillips had in Buffalo last year, but my goodness the pop off his bat, esp. the first homer. A nice easy swing and the ball just flew. Very exciting addition and surprise for 2006.

Belisle, just enough cannot be said about that performance. He was making some incredible pitches and the reports were 93-95 when he dialed up the old number 1. Consistency becomes the key for him, and the Reds would be smart to continue to give him some spot starts, he could be a productive member of the rotation in the making.

Coffey, after the first two batters, was throwing some nasty stuff. He made Fielder look silly and it is good to see a Reds chucker actually work down around the shins to the shoetops. But, he better not even sniff warming up today. Hopefully Arroyo will do his job today and get into the 7th or 8th inning.

EE, I was more impressed with his bases loaded walk than I was his homer. He is fitting in very well with this offense, which is just amazing. His patience set up BP's Grand Slam, IMO, because you know that reliever was not going to get behind after walking in a run.

Finally, I have no idea how Dave Williams got anybody out when he was with Pittsburgh, but he has nothing. How two baseball teams (I know, the Pirates and the Reds, go figure) look at this guy and see a major league pitcher is beyond me. He is just astoundingly awful.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 11:41 AM
I am utterly stunned at the brevity of this article about that game. Yes, I know it was over at midnight and was on the road, but this is 2006 and there is something called the internet.

This brief of an article with all the potential stories in that game is shameful. The Reds media relations needs to ask Mr. Fay why he is not providing more depth of coverage for the Redlegs than this sorry article.


Phillips' hot bat rescues Reds
BY JOHN FAY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

MILWAUKEE - Wondering why in the name of Joe Morgan Wayne Krivsky traded for another second baseman April 7?

This is why: Brandon Phillips, the guy Krivsky acquired, hit two home runs and drove in six in the Reds' 12-8 victory over the Milwaukee Brewers before 15,347 at Miller Park Thursday night.

He has shown he is capable of big things the last five days. He's 9-for-23 (.391) with 13 RBI in that span.

"I told Wayne the other day that I had Michael Young in Texas when he came up in a similar situation," Reds manager Jerry Narron said. "Ability-wise, Brandon has as much talent as Michael Young. The difference is Michael Young's intangibles were off the chart. That's something we don't know about Brandon."

So far, so good.

"Everything he's done is great," Narron said.

Narron was ejected for the first time in his tenure with the Reds. It was hard to tell whether the usually mild-mannered Narron went all Lou Piniella about Charlie Reliford's out call on Scott Hatteberg or the way the Reds played in the second inning (three walks, two errors).

Whatever the reason, it worked.

Narron's ejection came in the third. The Reds scored three in the fourth, two in the fifth and five in the sixth to go from 6-2 down to 12-6 up. Starter Dave Williams lasted only three innings, allowing six runs on eight hits. His ERA after three outings: 10.50.

But the Reds had the lead back by the fifth, thanks to a pair of two-run home runs by Phillips and Edwin Encarnacion.

Matt Belisle shut out the Brewers in the fourth through seventh innings.

westofyou
04-21-2006, 11:48 AM
Narron's ejection came in the third. The Reds scored three in the fourth, two in the fifth and five in the sixth to go from 6-2 down to 12-6 up. Starter Dave Williams lasted only three innings, allowing six runs on eight hits. His ERA after three outings: 10.50.Tom Swope, Jack Ryder, Earl Lawson and Ritter Collete say hello to the worst Reds beat writer ever.
Hands down... he makes Tony Jackson look like Grandland Rice.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 12:11 PM
Tom Swope, Jack Ryder, Earl Lawson and Ritter Collete say hello to the worst Reds beat writer ever.
Hands down... he makes Tony Jackson look like Grandland Rice.
It's sad, it really is WOY. I was looking to hear some reactions from the locker room, a discussion of Belisle's effort, Coffey's performance, and most of all to hear what Brandon Phillips had to say.

What's he say?
Matt Belisle shut out the Brewers in the fourth through seventh innings.

I think I put more effort into my brief Strat writeups than he put into what was an incredible performance by the Redlegs.

cumberlandreds
04-21-2006, 12:12 PM
Great game thread! This Reds offense is tremendous! I don't know how long it can keep up with the poor pitching but we will take it. Just some observations:
Phillips is great for now. He looks like he has all the tools to be a very good MLB player. I just hope can adjust to better pitch selection. It won't be long and the pitchers won't be throwing him strikes. Coffey will be the closer very soon. I like how Narron is easing him into that role. I concur with everyone else about Williams. I have just seen him for two innings this season and he is just terrible. We need a small refund back from the Pirates on him because this is not a MLB pitcher. The sooner he is released the better. When Griffey comes back we have got to find a way to have Freel in the lineup everyday. The offense is just so much better with him leading off. Someone is just got to sit down and have long talk with Dunn and point out how much better this team is with him at 1b,Phillips at 2b and Freel in cf with Griffey moving to lf. That's a heckuva a lineup. With just decent pitching this team can win 85 or more games.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 12:26 PM
Here's the Letter I sent to the Enquirer. Help me keep an eye out to see if it makes the paper.


I came to the online edition to read the story on the April 20, 2006 Reds win over Milwaukee hoping to find included in the story some reactions from the locker room, a discussion of Matt Belisle's effort, Todd Coffey's performance, and most of all to hear what Brandon Phillips had to say after a two home run night, including a Grand Slam.

What I found was John Fay's article titled "Phillips' hot bat rescues Reds." What I read was a few quotes from Jerry Narron and a brief synopsis of the game, which was a very dramatic game with about half a dozen possible directions that Mr. Fay could have explored.

One understating sentence to express the monumental pitching performance of Matt Belisle as "Matt Belisle shut out the Brewers in the fourth through seventh innings." Nary a word was included from Brandon Phillips or Todd Coffey. What about a word from Bucky Dent, who was handed the lineup card after Narron's ejection?

I hope that the Reds' front office is as upset about such shoddy coverage of the team as I am and lets Mr. Fay know so.

flyer85
04-21-2006, 12:31 PM
Phillips is great for now. He looks like he has all the tools to be a very good MLB player. I just hope can adjust to better pitch selection. It won't be long and the pitchers won't be throwing him strikes.Seeing as he is surrounded with a lineup that is patient and doesn't chase many bad pitches(especially early in the count like the Brewers do) I would expect him to draw off of that.

Unless a starter has exceptional stuff the Reds have a lineup that just wears them down, lots of power and patience. Last night the lineup just didn't get any easier no matter what the spot.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 12:40 PM
We need a small refund back from the Pirates on him because this is not a MLB pitcher.Buyer Beware!

PuffyPig
04-21-2006, 12:41 PM
Coffey doesn't get a save for that does he? The tying run was at the plate in the 8th... It's gotta be the go-ahead run doesn't it? That or 3 innings ... He really earned a save there IMO. Oh well, saves are a weird stat anyway.
While the tying run was at the plate, a pitcher can't create his own save opportunity. When Coffey came in the game, the tying run was "in the hole", not on deck as is required.

Chip R
04-21-2006, 12:47 PM
Not trying to defend Fay but there may have been deadline issues because of the length of the game. The game didn't get over until just about midnight.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 12:52 PM
Not trying to defend Fay but there may have been deadline issues because of the length of the game. The game didn't get over until just about midnight.I noted that in my original post about the article, but with the online edition, it would seem that should not be an issue. If that is their excuse, time to come into the 21st century.

flyer85
04-21-2006, 12:55 PM
Not trying to defend Fay but there may have been deadline issues because of the length of the game. The game didn't get over until just about midnight.I think people are less likely to give Fay a pass because when you listen to him in his 2nd inning moments w/Marty he certainly comes across as rather clueless(unlike Lancaster).

IslandRed
04-21-2006, 01:06 PM
Not trying to defend Fay but there may have been deadline issues because of the length of the game. The game didn't get over until just about midnight.

There were most certainly deadline issues. I worked for a sports department for a little while, and I know what deadline situations are like. In a game like last night, the writer may only have a few minutes after the game to get quotes before he has to finish his story and get it in by deadline. The editor's sitting back in Cincinnati looking at the TV, looking at the clock, looking at the rest of the content and deciding how much space to give the Reds game story. (That's something that has to be decided before the game ends so he'll have time to lay out the rest of the page.) The editor even has to allow for the possibility that the game will go extras and he won't get it in the paper at all. It's a demanding job.

Now, there is this thing called the Internet, but online readership still pales in comparison to the real newspaper and it's a management call as to whether they're willing to pay John Fay or anyone else to write longer game stories that are never going to appear in print. It's an issue that's independent of Fay's ability (or not) as a writer.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 01:12 PM
There were most certainly deadline issues. I worked for a sports department for a little while, and I know what deadline situations are like. In a game like last night, the writer may only have a few minutes after the game to get quotes before he has to finish his story and get it in by deadline. The editor's sitting back in Cincinnati looking at the TV, looking at the clock, looking at the rest of the content and deciding how much space to give the Reds game story. (That's something that has to be decided before the game ends so he'll have time to lay out the rest of the page.) The editor even has to allow for the possibility that the game will go extras and he won't get it in the paper at all. It's a demanding job.

Now, there is this thing called the Internet, but online readership still pales in comparison to the real newspaper and it's a management call as to whether they're willing to pay John Fay or anyone else to write longer game stories that are never going to appear in print. It's an issue that's independent of Fay's ability (or not) as a writer.Yes, there is this thing called the internet, and I guess I would say that if that is still the mindset of editors, then watch out for that giant asteroid.

Chip R
04-21-2006, 01:15 PM
Now, there is this thing called the Internet, but online readership still pales in comparison to the real newspaper and it's a management call as to whether they're willing to pay John Fay or anyone else to write longer game stories that are never going to appear in print. It's an issue that's independent of Fay's ability (or not) as a writer.

I usually don't read the game stories in both the online and the hard copy but when I have I haven't noticed a whit of difference between the two. Rosie would know a lot more about this than I would but I would think they don't feel there is a need to make the online version more expanded than the hard copy. Now I have seen stories in the hard copy that were not in the online version. But I'm sure the reason for that is to give incentive for people to buy the paper instead of getting it for free online.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 01:23 PM
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060421/SPT05/604210326/1027


Slam-dunk of a start
Hot-hitting Phillips settling in at 2nd
By Marc Lancaster
Post staff reporter




MILWAUKEE - Give Brandon Phillips some credit for his modesty as he becomes the Reds' everyday second baseman.

"I'm not in there every day right now," he insisted Thursday night after powering the Reds to a 12-8 win over the Brewers in his fifth consecutive start. "I've been playing the last few days, and that's a blessing. I'm just trying my best to take advantage of it."

Two home runs and six RBIs good enough? Thirteen RBIs in his last four games?

Phillips might want to get comfortable. The way he's going lately, there's no reason for Jerry Narron to omit the 24-year-old's name from the lineup card, and everything's starting to look familiar to the Reds' manager.

When Narron was running the Rangers in 2001, he inherited an up-and-coming second baseman, also 24, named Michael Young. Narron threw Young into the fray to let him learn, and he did. Young has been an All-Star the last two seasons.

Narron mentioned the similarities between those situations to Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky the other day.

"Ability-wise, Brandon has as much talent as Michael Young had," said Narron. "The difference is Mike Young's intangibles are off the charts, and that's something we don't know about Brandon. Everything he's done in here, he's been positive, he's worked hard. I can't see anything wrong with anything the guy's done, attitude-wise or anything. He's been great."

The light disclaimers were necessary because the rap on Phillips the last few years with the Indians was that he could be difficult to handle at times, his ego perhaps a bit inflated by his uber-prospect status.

Nothing of that sort has been evident since Krivsky swiped Phillips from Cleveland on April 7 for a player to be named later. In fact, Phillips has taken it in the other direction, impressing those in the clubhouse with his approach.

For instance, his refusal to acknowledge that he is in fact the Reds' starting second baseman for the foreseeable future.

"I'm not really thinking about it," said Phillips. "When I'm in there, I'm in there. When I'm not, I just cheer on the guys trying to get a 'W' and just be ready to come off the bench. I really know my role."

At the moment, it's run-producing - at a pace that might make Adam Dunn envious. His timing has been impeccable, as well.

Thursday night, a second consecutive poor outing by starter Dave Williams left the Reds in a 6-2 hole by the end of the third inning. The visitors also were without Narron at that point, after the manager was ejected in the top of the third following a hotly disputed call at first base that saw Narron hop with anger at umpire Charlie Reliford.

"I think he ran me for lack of elevation," Narron deadpanned.

Fear not, Phillips was there to kick-start the inevitable Reds rally. After Edwin Encarnacion walked to lead off the fourth against Brewers starter Tomo Ohka, Phillips connected with a 1-1 pitch and drove it 399 feet to center field to halve the Reds' deficit.

Cincinnati would score one more in the fourth, and Encarnacion's two-run homer in the fifth would give the Reds a lead they wouldn't relinquish - albeit one they couldn't deem comfortable. As Matt Belisle stabilized the pitching situation by putting up four consecutive scoreless innings in relief of Williams, Phillips carved out some breathing room.

He came to the plate with two out and the bases loaded in the sixth, with one more run in on an Encarnacion walk that made it 8-6. Phillips took a strike from reliever Mike Adams, then launched one into the bleachers in left for his first career two-homer game and the first grand slam of his life.

"All levels, I never hit one before," said Phillips. "It really felt good. I've just got to find somebody to give the ball to, other than myself."

Again, the modesty.

It's early, but the Reds have to wonder if they've really found something in a deal that could have ended up bringing them an albatross. Phillips must stay on the roster all year or the Reds would risk losing him through waivers, leading Narron just last week to refer to him as something approaching a Rule 5 draft pick.

Now, the Reds can't get him out of the lineup, and considering how highly regarded Phillips was in the game before he fell out of favor with the Indians, it's tempting to envision him as the missing piece in a long-term double-play combo with Felipe Lopez if he really has figured it out.

"We'll just have to see if he takes advantage of the situation," Narron said. "So far, he has."

There's Lancaster's effort, which is what I was hoping to read within the game story. Now I'm not a local, but my understanding is that The Enquirer is the morning paper while the Post is out sometime during the next day. Still, Lancaster is head and shoulders above anything Fay ever puts out.

redsmetz
04-21-2006, 01:26 PM
There were most certainly deadline issues. I worked for a sports department for a little while, and I know what deadline situations are like. In a game like last night, the writer may only have a few minutes after the game to get quotes before he has to finish his story and get it in by deadline. The editor's sitting back in Cincinnati looking at the TV, looking at the clock, looking at the rest of the content and deciding how much space to give the Reds game story. (That's something that has to be decided before the game ends so he'll have time to lay out the rest of the page.) The editor even has to allow for the possibility that the game will go extras and he won't get it in the paper at all. It's a demanding job.

And yet Hal McCoy on the same deadline for a morning paper has this much to write and it's colorful and full of great quotes:


Tale of two acquisitions: Williams stinks, Phillips stars in Reds' win

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

MILWAUKEE | If Dan O'Brien was lurking around Miller Park on Thursday night, the Milwaukee Brewers' assistant general manager was inconspicuous.

As one member of the Cincinnati Reds said, "He has some explaining to do."

As general manager of the Reds last winter, O'Brien traded first baseman Sean Casey for left-handed pitcher Dave Williams.

O'Brien couldn't have known he would be fired by the Reds and hired by the Brewers, but Williams was more Brewer than Red on Thursday.

Only because they are becoming The Relentless Reds their motto, "We let you get ahead, but we don't let you win," did Williams escape without an "L."

Once Williams left the game, trailing by four runs, the Reds pounded from behind with three homers to win, 12-8.

Second baseman Brandon Phillips drove in six of those runs with two homers, one a grand slam during a five-run sixth inning.

And there is an O'Brien twist there, too.

Last December, O'Brien traded with the New York Yankees for second baseman Tony Womack, who appeared destined to play second base for the Reds. But new General Manager Wayne Krivsky traded for Phillips, and he has grabbed second base with both hands, both legs and his teeth.

Phillips has started the past five games and is hitting .367 with two homers, four doubles, five runs scored and 13 RBIs in only 30 at-bats. Oh, yeah. Womack, now a bit player, pinch-hit for Williams in the fourth inning and struck out.

"I was in Texas when Michael Young came up, and I told Wayne Krivsky the other day that Brandon Phillips has every bit as much talent as Young," Narron said. "The only difference is that Young's intangibles were off the charts.

"We don't know about those intangibles with Brandon yet, but from what we've seen, he's worked hard, and I can't see anything wrong with anything the guy has done, attitude or anything. He has been great. We'll have to see if Brandon takes advantage of the opportunity we're giving him, and so far he has. He is a very talented baseball player."

For the second straight time, Williams was lit up like Times Square on New Year's Eve this time for six runs and eight hits over three innings.

He needed 24 pitches to get through a scoreless first inning, then 40 pitches to wobble through a three-run second inning.

"I have to figure this out so the offense doesn't have to bang it out for me," Williams said. "I have to figure it out or they'll find somebody else."

During the top of the third, manager Jerry Narron was ejected for the first time during his tenure with the Reds, vehemently protesting a call at first base with umpire Charlie Reliford.

"I think he threw me out for embarrassing myself, for lack of elevation when I jumped in the air," Narron said. "In those situations, I have a tendency to say something sarcastic."

A cynic might say Narron was tired of watching the deplorable performance by Williams, who gave up a run-scoring single to opposing pitcher Tomo Ohka on a pitch clocked at 66 miles an hour.

In his previous start Saturday in St. Louis, he also pitched only three innings and gave up six runs and six hits in a 9-3 loss.

This time, the Reds trailed, 6-2, when Williams evacuated before hurting himself or any of his teammates.

The Reds scored three in the fourth, including a two-run home run by Phillips, then took a 7-6 lead in the fifth on Edwin Encarnacion's two-run homer. Phillips added the grand slam in the sixth.

The Reds are back in their home-run mode after stroking 11 singles and one double to beat Florida 9-8 on Wednesday. With three homers Thursday, they have a league-leading 32 home runs in 16 games.

Matt Belisle was the only pitcher on either side who could get anybody out. He pitched four scoreless innings after replacing Williams, then gave up a leadoff home run in the eighth to Chad Moeller, hit Brady Clark and gave up a single to J.J. Hardy and had to be rescued by the bullpen.

"The offense takes care of itself around here," Belisle said. "And we have a lot of people doing it. They'll cut you in a heartbeat."

Todd Coffey struck out Prince Fielder with the bases loaded to end the eighth and finished the ninth.

Chip R
04-21-2006, 01:30 PM
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060421/SPT05/604210326/1027



There's Lancaster's effort, which is what I was hoping to read within the game story. Now I'm not a local, but my understanding is that The Enquirer is the morning paper while the Post is out sometime during the next day. Still, Lancaster is head and shoulders above anything Fay ever puts out.

The Post is an afternoon paper even though the game stories are up on the website before the paper is out. Marc has a more generous deadline than Fay. But I do agree that Marc is eons better than Fay.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 01:34 PM
This time, the Reds trailed, 6-2, when Williams evacuated before hurting himself or any of his teammates.That sounds like something you would read in a game thread :laugh:

flyer85
04-21-2006, 01:37 PM
when Williams evacuatedHope he did that after leaving the field.

IslandRed
04-21-2006, 01:52 PM
Yes, there is this thing called the internet, and I guess I would say that if that is still the mindset of editors, then watch out for that giant asteroid.

It's more like mindsets of corporate suits. I know newspapers debate all the time how to integrate a 24/7 medium into a business that's revolved around a once-a-day press run for 100 years or more. I wish they'd embrace online a little more (I'm using the generic newspaper "they," not the Enquirer specifically) but the reality is that they're running a business and my perception is that online readership/ad revenue doesn't justify giving it equal importance to print.

Caveat Emperor
04-21-2006, 02:08 PM
Buyer Beware!

Caveat Emptor...one might say. :p:

traderumor
04-21-2006, 02:17 PM
Caveat Emptor...one might say. :p:
My kids are taking Latin--maybe they can teach me ;)

traderumor
04-21-2006, 03:18 PM
Just received a call from the Enquirer verifying my letter to the editor. It could make it in the next couple of days.

TeamBoone
04-21-2006, 07:50 PM
Perhaps he didn't have time to get quotes due to a deadline, but he certainly could have written about the game in more detail. It was a good one and there were lots of things to say, even without player/manager quotes.

TeamBoone
04-21-2006, 07:51 PM
And yet Hal McCoy on the same deadline for a morning paper has this much to write and it's colorful and full of great quotes:

Do the Enquirer and the Dayton Daily News have the same deadline? Not being demeaning, but do they?

TeamBoone
04-21-2006, 07:53 PM
Just received a call from the Enquirer verifying my letter to the editor. It could make it in the next couple of days.

Cool! Hopefully this weekend.

I didn't know they notified people when their letters are accepted.