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redlegs7089
04-20-2006, 11:25 PM
He cant even hit 80 on the gun, i am not sure what we were smoking giving up casey for this guy. This guys is beyond horrible and i say we send him down or release him.

reds1869
04-20-2006, 11:29 PM
i am not sure what we were smoking giving up casey for this guy.

MONEY

That was the sole reason for this trade; the prospect Williams might deliver even one bit of quality pitching was an afterthought, no matter how the front office spun it.

We are pretty much stuck with him at this point, so let's ride it out 5-6 more games before pulling the trigger. Nobody else would want him.

2001MUgrad
04-20-2006, 11:42 PM
He is Jimmy Haynes, Joey Hamilton, and Jimmy Anderson all rolled into one.

M2
04-20-2006, 11:52 PM
If only the team had never traded for him. Amazing how quickly a trade goes from well-received to to despised once people get a good gander at what the return is.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41494&highlight=williams%2C+casey

kbrake
04-20-2006, 11:54 PM
I still like the trade. I wish we had got nobody in return, but hopefully Williams will be gone at some point. Casey and his money had to go and so far it got us Dunn for a 2 year deal, I will take that over Casey anyday.

Krusty
04-21-2006, 12:57 AM
I would be happy to see Williams sent down and Justin Germano get a shot at the fifth spot in the rotation.

Boston Red
04-21-2006, 12:58 AM
How much longer until Wilson is ready to take that spot in the rotation?

Gallen5862
04-21-2006, 01:02 AM
Let's put Williams on the Dl. I am sure they can come up with some tightness or something. Then give him time to rehab and do some minor league rehab work.

roby
04-21-2006, 01:10 AM
Instead of Germano or Wilson, I think Matt Belisile put in a pretty good bid for the 5th rotation spot tonight. He looked dominating. I also don't understand why we keep Williams in the rotation for another 5 or 6 starts. This is the major leagues...at the very least let him work out his problems on the DL, in the bullpen, or in the minors. he is obviously hurt. This is not the pitcher who won 10 games for the Pirates last year. If we keep him around for 5 more starts, it could be a real difference maker in the success of this ball club. They are not going to come back and score 12 runs everytime Williams pitches. How about trying to WIN this year? :D

M2
04-21-2006, 01:10 AM
I still like the trade. I wish we had got nobody in return, but hopefully Williams will be gone at some point. Casey and his money had to go and so far it got us Dunn for a 2 year deal, I will take that over Casey anyday.

The Reds had already saved enough money off the 2005 budget to sign Dunn and every other arb eligible on the team for 2006.

And Casey's contract was up after 2006 so signing Dunn beyond this year had nothing to do with Casey.

Gallen5862
04-21-2006, 01:11 AM
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/2006/04/big-blow-to-cubs.asp#comments
Per Marcs Blog Williams has an option left.
This might be a good time to use it if they can't find a dl excuse.

Redmachine2003
04-21-2006, 01:13 AM
I under stood the trade when Dunn was moving to 1st but when they traded WMP and moved Dunn back to the out field and Hatteberg to 1st I became more disappointed in the trade. I never understood the Womack trade. I think it is time to see if Williams can pitch out of the pen.

Caveat Emperor
04-21-2006, 01:16 AM
If only the team had never traded for him. Amazing how quickly a trade goes from well-received to to despised once people get a good gander at what the return is.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41494&highlight=williams%2C+casey

I'd like to state, for the record, my extreme indifference to the trade at the time.

It's safe to say I grossly underreacted.

flyer85
04-21-2006, 01:21 AM
I thought dealing Casey was a good idea. At the time I was only OK because I thought they could have done better than Williams(I thought they could have gotten Snell without much a problem). Reading after the fact it seems that DanO wanted Williams. Who knows what a non-stupid might have received. It wasn't the trade it was the Reds GM that targeted the wrong guy to get in return.

I know Snell has struggled but he has good stuff and could be excellent in the pen if he can't cut it as a starter. The stuff Williams throws does not project well to relief. He has three pitches, it's just that they aren't very good.

flyer85
04-21-2006, 01:23 AM
but when they traded WMP and moved Dunn back to the out field and Hatteberg to 1st I became more disappointed in the trade. without a doubt. Hatteberg should be a role player from the bench. Hatty makes Casey look like Keith Hernandez when compared with him

Patrick Bateman
04-21-2006, 01:24 AM
If only the team had never traded for him. Amazing how quickly a trade goes from well-received to to despised once people get a good gander at what the return is.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41494&highlight=williams%2C+casey

I was glad that we dumped the money, but I also thought he might be half-way decent. After lokking at the numbers during the off-season I figured out you were right, and after the last 2 painful starts I think it's pretty obvious he wont be helping us anytime soon.

Nugget
04-21-2006, 01:25 AM
Guys its three weeks into a very long season. Some guys have hit their straps some guys haven't. The REDS are in the mix and I'm not ready to start the bleeding process yet. There are options but Williams hasn't been the only REDS pitcher to underperform so hold the trigger.

Patrick Bateman
04-21-2006, 01:29 AM
Guys its three weeks into a very long season. Some guys have hit their straps some guys haven't. The REDS are in the mix and I'm not ready to start the bleeding process yet. There are options but Williams hasn't been the only REDS pitcher to underperform so hold the trigger.

It's not like he has a good track record or if he's lloked at all promising this year. He's afraid to throw strikes and can't top 80 MPH. Theres been nothing impressive in the last 2 starts (and his career to date). He cant be starting every 5th start.

Caveat Emperor
04-21-2006, 01:31 AM
Guys its three weeks into a very long season. Some guys have hit their straps some guys haven't. The REDS are in the mix and I'm not ready to start the bleeding process yet. There are options but Williams hasn't been the only REDS pitcher to underperform so hold the trigger.

There's underperforming, and then there's coming to the hill with an 82 MPH fastball, a 70-something MPH change up, and a slow curve.

Aaron Harang is underperforming. Dave Williams is undertalented.

flyer85
04-21-2006, 01:33 AM
Guys its three weeks into a very long season. Some guys have hit their straps some guys haven't. The REDS are in the mix and I'm not ready to start the bleeding process yet. There are options but Williams hasn't been the only REDS pitcher to underperform so hold the trigger.it's not the underperformance as much as his stuff is atrocious(actually I think his performance matches his stuff). His fastball has no velocity, his curve has no bite and there is not enough separation between his fastball and change to create deception. He has no chance to get people out with that junk.

flyer85
04-21-2006, 01:35 AM
Aaron Harang is underperforming. Dave Williams is undertalented.Harang has been hit because of making bad pitches, Williams is getting hit because he has bad stuff.

corkedbat
04-21-2006, 01:39 AM
Option him to da Ville and dare (pray) someone to take him.

dsmith421
04-21-2006, 01:43 AM
MONEY

That was the sole reason for this trade; the prospect Williams might deliver even one bit of quality pitching was an afterthought, no matter how the front office spun it.



The problem, of course, is we then spent the money on Tony Womack, Rich Aurilia, Chris Hammond and Rick White.

Dan O'Brien should be forced to knock on every door in the greater Cincinnati area, apologize, and then invite all Reds fans to kick him in the groin.

Casey was tremendously overpaid and overrated, but the Reds bungled that series of moves about as badly as they could have.

redsmetz
04-21-2006, 09:55 AM
I under stood the trade when Dunn was moving to 1st but when they traded WMP and moved Dunn back to the out field and Hatteberg to 1st I became more disappointed in the trade. I never understood the Womack trade. I think it is time to see if Williams can pitch out of the pen.

I've questioned this trade from the get-go. I'd have rather had some pitching prospects. He seems like a nice enough guy, but he's going to make the 2005 Eric Milton look like Cy Young.

UK Reds Fan
04-21-2006, 10:28 AM
I guess I don't understand how a guy with very mediocre stuff has this bad of an ability to find location. Williams has been in a constant 2-0 counts, etc.. and then he has to come in with his weak stuff and the roof falls in. If you are a salad tosser, you better be able to locate it!!! We got this guy for Casey who isn't a great 1b but is atleast somewhere around average for what is going to be a guy that gets shelled 3 out of every 4 starts.

I guess I am more and more amazed of how truly awful Dan O was. Why would you trade Casey for this guy, trade for Womack, sign Milton to $9 mil a year, sign Wilson with a bad shoulder, trade Reitsma for 2 pitchers that can't sniff Cincy (and haven't been injured)....Just amazing how much awfulness this guy accumulated in 2 years. At some point you'd almost think Dan O was intentionally trying to wreck the franchise.

GAC
04-21-2006, 10:41 AM
If only the team had never traded for him. Amazing how quickly a trade goes from well-received to to despised once people get a good gander at what the return is.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41494&highlight=williams%2C+casey

Reading over that thread, I don't see where it was very well received by a majority of those that posted.

CRedsLarkin11
04-21-2006, 10:52 AM
I just don't see how he won 10 games with the Pirates last year. I had never seen him pitch before this season(or never paid attention to him when he was) so I figured the deal might have been a good one at the time. LOL, little did I know. Honestly though, I loved Casey as a person and as the Mayor, but he was going to be a free agent after this season and he is overpriced for what he actually is. (not to mention he's on the DL) So there really wasn't a winner in this trade, we dumped some cash and the Pirates got a good leader in the club house. But what in the hell are we going to do with Williams? Our lineup and Belisle bailed us out last night but we can't expect that every 5th time out.

PickOff
04-21-2006, 11:00 AM
I was happy with the trade for Dunn to 1st, Pena/Kearns full-time, Casey attitude and dbp and lineup issues, but I also thought Williams would be a good addition.

He doesn't look nearly as good as he did with the Pirates last season. I've got to wonder if he is hurt and hiding it, because his velocity is down. If he is not hurt and doesn't come around in the next few starts, then I give it up to M2 for his steadfast faith that Williams will be a complete failure.

flyer85
04-21-2006, 11:02 AM
After watching last night Williams reminds me of Steve Avery at the end of his career. He knows his stuff is bad and walks people because he is afraid to throw it over the plate(not because he can't but because he won't).

redsfanfalcon
04-21-2006, 11:05 AM
You can throw 85 if you know where it is going. Look at guys like Maddux, who has had a Hall of Fame career. Williams has to go. No reason to hold on to him with Milton and Claussen in the rotation. We have plenty of lefties!

traderumor
04-21-2006, 11:27 AM
I'm still fine with Casey's salary being off the books and with the trade as a salary dump, which is the primary benefit I saw of the deal.

bengalred
04-21-2006, 11:40 AM
I want Casey back. I have no idea how Dave Williams ever made it to a major league team from what I have seen thus far.

smith288
04-21-2006, 11:47 AM
Here we see Dave Williams with his high school pitching coach (in sun glasses)

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/local/buddy-ball/buddy-pitching.jpg

redsfan30
04-21-2006, 12:34 PM
I just don't see how he won 10 games with the Pirates last year.
No doubt. He won 10 games with this slop for stuff???

Hopefully he can turn it around, but we don't have a whole lot of confidence, that's for sure.

LincolnparkRed
04-21-2006, 01:07 PM
I know that a couple of people have said to be patient and that he needs a chance to turn himself around but the problem is the more starts he has like last night the more he hurts the Reds on the days after he pitches. Even on Wednesday we needed an extra bullpen arm to cover us because we had 3 (williams, milton & Arroyo) crappy starts out of four. Our bullpen is sketchy at best and if they start to get warn out in April who nows how bad it will be come June and July.

I think it is time to see what someone from triple AAA can do, it can't be any worse at this point.

Az Red
04-21-2006, 01:18 PM
You can't slam the lid on the trash can fast enough. Get rid of Dave Williams!

RFS62
04-21-2006, 01:20 PM
Last night's game was the first time I've seen him pitch, if you want to call it that.

I can't believe he's in the major leagues with that stuff. If that wasn't an abberation, and that really was all he's got, he's gonna get pounded every time he takes the mound.

flyer85
04-21-2006, 01:26 PM
Last night's game was the first time I've seen him pitch, if you want to call it that.

I can't believe he's in the major leagues with that stuff. If that wasn't an abberation, and that really was all he's got, he's gonna get pounded every time he takes the mound.exact repeat of the Cardinal game. Once could be a coincidence, twice in a row is a serious problem.

shredda2000
04-21-2006, 01:26 PM
It appears we traded damaged goods for damaged goods...and the only positive so far to this trade is the SALARY DUMP...

OldXOhio
04-21-2006, 02:33 PM
Dan O'Brien - the gift that keeps on giving.

Frankly, I look at the trade as a sure fire way to prevent the FO from having to face any decision re: resigning Casey once he becomes a FA. They cut bait a year early and I'm glad for that. Would have been nice to get someone at least serviceable in return, but.......

klw
04-21-2006, 02:39 PM
http://members.tripod.com/~swingin/behindthescenes/fordwhip.jpg


WHIPPING BOY DU JOUR

GridironGrace
04-21-2006, 02:39 PM
Just coming in to sign this.

I mean in time he could turn out to be ok but man he pitches so slow... a few innings and its the end of him.

Could possibly help more in the pen????? maybe maybe not :(

Kid has to work on something though... learn a knuckler lol SOMETHING.

Fullboat
04-21-2006, 04:31 PM
The scary part is that every pitch he threw the batters were making contact in one form or another.

Benny-Distefano
04-21-2006, 04:41 PM
How much longer until Wilson is ready to take that spot in the rotation?

About 2 weeks before he gives it back up again. :D


....sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

Handofdeath
04-21-2006, 04:55 PM
The impatience of Reds fans amazes me. Some of you are willing to wait a few seasons for a Kearns, WMP, or Brandon Larson to develop. But a pitcher has two bad starts and you throw him under the bus? I have two questions. One, how would you feel if you knew your #5 starter would win 10 games and have an ERA of 4.41 at the end of the season? I know I would feel pretty good. That is what Williams did last year for a horrible Pirates team. Second question, of the 6 starting pitchers(counting Wilson) the Reds have who has the lowest career ERA? You guessed it, Dave Williams. He's young and he's pitching for a new team. Cut him some slack.

OldXOhio
04-21-2006, 05:07 PM
The impatience of Reds fans amazes me. Some of you are willing to wait a few seasons for a Kearns, WMP, or Brandon Larson to develop. But a pitcher has two bad starts and you throw him under the bus? I have two questions. One, how would you feel if you knew your #5 starter would win 10 games and have an ERA of 4.41 at the end of the season? I know I would feel pretty good. That is what Williams did last year for a horrible Pirates team. Second question, of the 6 starting pitchers(counting Wilson) the Reds have who has the lowest career ERA? You guessed it, Dave Williams. He's young and he's pitching for a new team. Cut him some slack.

you act like the guy has shown tremendous promise in the past??? Have you watched him pitch this season? He's lucky his ERA's only 10.

membengal
04-21-2006, 05:07 PM
His number of won games is immaterial. You cannot judge a pitcher's effectiveness by counting his wins. Wins are luck. The meat Williams is throwing up there speaks for itself. One can look at that, and his career stats, and reasonably conclude that more meat will soon be thrown, and think that someone else who throws less meat is desireable...

smith288
04-21-2006, 05:10 PM
Accept for Jenkins....looked like me when I was coaching tball and whiffed on my first try to show how to drop the bat... UGH

The distant laugh probably came from the Reds dugout more than his own when he K'd.

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 05:13 PM
He's a soft tossing leftie from the Pirates.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/jimmy_anderson_autograph.jpg

Chip R
04-21-2006, 05:17 PM
He's a soft tossing leftie from the Pirates.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/jimmy_anderson_autograph.jpg

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

Handofdeath
04-21-2006, 05:21 PM
you act like the guy has shown tremendous promise in the past??? Have you watched him pitch this season? He's lucky his ERA's only 10.

I never once said or gave the impression he was anything other than a #5 starter. I only asked for some patience. If he still is doing this May 15 then yes he should be taken out behind the barn and shot.

I would beg to differ on wins being "luck" There is some luck involved but Pedro ain't lucky. Randy Johnson ain't lucky and Clemens ain't lucky. They're just real good.

savafan
04-21-2006, 05:26 PM
I would beg to differ on wins being "luck" There is some luck involved but Pedro ain't lucky. Randy Johnson ain't lucky and Clemens ain't lucky. They're just real good.

And if you look at their stats, they provide much more than just wins. A pitcher can give up 7 runs in five innings, and if his team can put 8 across the plate, he can get the win.

I say move Belisle to the starting rotation until Wilson gets back, and then evaluate the pitching staff from there. Williams can go to the bullpen, Louisville, Billings, I don't care, but I don't want to see him starting for the Reds anytime soon. If he can't cut it in the bullpen, there has to be someone in the organization who can.

OldXOhio
04-21-2006, 05:31 PM
I never once said or gave the impression he was anything other than a #5 starter.


When you categorize him w/ the Kearns, Penas and Larson of the Reds world, then clearly you are inferring that we should give him time to fulfill his limitless promise. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's that's how I took it.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 05:39 PM
Did anyone realize that this thread title has circular reasoning?

Handofdeath
04-21-2006, 05:41 PM
And if you look at their stats, they provide much more than just wins. A pitcher can give up 7 runs in five innings, and if his team can put 8 across the plate, he can get the win.

Yes but it works both ways. If you're giving up 4 runs and your team scores only three...

The Pirates won 67 games last season and Williams won 10 of those. That's almost 15% of the Pirates wins. Certainly statheads out there can appreciate that. Would you rather have gotten Kip Wells, Josh Fogg, or Mark Redman in the Casey deal? Guess what, he had a better season than all of them last year.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 05:51 PM
Yes but it works both ways. If you're giving up 4 runs and your team scores only three...

The Pirates won 67 games last season and Williams won 10 of those. That's almost 15% of the Pirates wins. Certainly statheads out there can appreciate that. Would you rather have gotten Kip Wells, Josh Fogg, or Mark Redman in the Casey deal? Guess what, he had a better season than all of them last year.Basic point, but unless Williams pitched complete game shutouts in each of those wins and knocked in the winning run, ala Harang last Friday, he had very little to do with whether or not he got a W, L or no decision on any given night. Considering that he averaged just over 5 IP a start last year, I'd say he was mighty lucky to go 10-11. There was a time when W/L meant something for starters when many were going 300 IP plus and were around when the game was decided, but the stat is pretty much meaningless anymore.

GAC
04-21-2006, 05:51 PM
exact repeat of the Cardinal game. Once could be a coincidence, twice in a row is a serious problem.

If his slow sweeping curve is not working.... he's fresh meat! ;)

I had HOPES he might become a serviceable #5 starter. That's all.

My hopes have been dashed. ;)

Handofdeath
04-21-2006, 05:51 PM
When you categorize him w/ the Kearns, Penas and Larson of the Reds world, then clearly you are inferring that we should give him time to fulfill his limitless promise. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's that's how I took it.

Say, the Reds have a pitcher this year in AAA.

21 starts
6 wins 2 losses
116 innings
103 K's
33 BB's
3.47 ERA
They then call him up in September...

10 games
6 starts
38 innings pitched
33 K's
13 BB's
4.41 ERA

Reds fans would be beside themselves. They would be talking about this guy being the staff ace for years to come.

Reds fans say hello to Dave Williams 2004.

traderumor
04-21-2006, 05:54 PM
Say, the Reds have a pitcher this year in AAA.

21 starts
6 wins 2 losses
116 innings
103 K's
33 BB's
3.47 ERA
They then call him up in September...

10 games
6 starts
38 innings pitched
33 K's
13 BB's
4.41 ERA

Reds fans would be beside themselves. They would be talking about this guy being the staff ace for years to come.

Reds fans say hello to Dave Williams 2004.
According to DanO, he was acquiring a staff ace.

membengal
04-21-2006, 05:55 PM
Re: my assertion that Wins are luck, a few others herein have already gotten to it (hat tip to traderumour) and gotten to it well, but one quick follow-up:

Nolan Ryan's 1987 season says hi:

2.76 ERA 1.13 WHIP 270 Ks to 87 BBs

Oh, and an 8-16 record. 8 wins. 16 losses.

But, hey, sure, Dave Williams is a good pitcher...HE had 10 whole wins last year. I sure am glad the Reds went and got him...

Handofdeath
04-21-2006, 06:11 PM
According to DanO, he was acquiring a staff ace.

Despite that, I say Williams needs patience.

Handofdeath
04-21-2006, 06:15 PM
Re: my assertion that Wins are luck, a few others herein have already gotten to it (hat tip to traderumour) and gotten to it well, but one quick follow-up:

Nolan Ryan's 1987 season says hi:

2.76 ERA 1.13 WHIP 270 Ks to 87 BBs

Oh, and an 8-16 record. 8 wins. 16 losses.

But, hey, sure, Dave Williams is a good pitcher...HE had 10 whole wins last year. I sure am glad the Reds went and got him...

Hey wins are not the end all. I totally agree. Look at the 2004 stats then give me your opinion. I would imagine if his name was Homer Bailey maybe you would think differently.

RFS62
04-21-2006, 06:40 PM
I've only seen him pitch once, last night. It was beyond sad.

He was throwing batting practice.

RANDY IN INDY
04-22-2006, 12:56 PM
I haven't chimed in on this one, but in watching him pitch on Thursday night, it actually made me want to get out a bat and step in against him. I believe that I could still hit that stuff. No deception. Just very easy to pick up and looked as big as a beach ball floating out over the plate.

Dan O'Brien, you are one heck of a talent evaluator.

traderumor
04-22-2006, 01:13 PM
Hey wins are not the end all. I totally agree. Look at the 2004 stats then give me your opinion. I would imagine if his name was Homer Bailey maybe you would think differently.I already did. And I think some more time around here will show you that there is not much hype around these parts about Homer Bailey. In fact, I think many will be presently surprised if he has a meaningful big league career, and if he does, that it will be with the Reds.

fisch11
04-22-2006, 01:21 PM
This thread is absurd. See "Current rotation stats" thread.

Reds Nd2
04-22-2006, 01:33 PM
If only the team had never traded for him. Amazing how quickly a trade goes from well-received to to despised once people get a good gander at what the return is.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41494&highlight=williams%2C+casey

It wasn't in this particular thread, but I'm on record somewhere at RedsZone as liking the deal when it went down. Anyone know what wine goes good with crow and could you please pass the ketchup?

Big Klu
04-22-2006, 01:35 PM
If his slow sweeping curve is not working.... he's fresh meat! ;)

I had HOPES he might become a serviceable #5 starter. That's all.

My hopes have been dashed. ;)

Exactly the way I feel about him. I hoped he would be OK as a #5, but now I'm ready to see if Matt Belisle can handle the job next Tuesday. (Whether Narron actually goes with Belisle, I don't know.)

That's the nature of the beast when you are the #5 starter in a rotation. You don't get the long leash that other pitchers get--if you struggle in two or three consecutive starts, then the manager starts looking for someone else to take that spot in the rotation.

Caveat Emperor
04-22-2006, 01:49 PM
Exactly the way I feel about him. I hoped he would be OK as a #5, but now I'm ready to see if Matt Belisle can handle the job next Tuesday. (Whether Narron actually goes with Belisle, I don't know.)

They might as well just name Belisle the starter. I guarantee he won't see action between now and Tuesday since Narron will probably want him fresh to bail Williams out if he blows up on the mound again.

Even if he's not starting, he'll be given the same amount of rest to prepare.

RANDY IN INDY
04-22-2006, 02:29 PM
This thread is absurd. See "Current rotation stats" thread.

I went to that thread, and I still don't know what you mean by that comment.:confused:

The lack of velocity, and the mouth watering offerings of Williams are quite the cause for concern.

registerthis
04-22-2006, 02:45 PM
Well, I felt that simply getting a bucket of balls to get Casey's contract off the books would be a bonus--I still do feel that way.

However, since Obie decided to go out and actually pursue major league talent, it would have been nice to get something other than this guy. At the least, go after a couple of marginal AA prospects. Maybe they pan out, or maybe you flip them for something better down the road. An unknown commodity (AA prospects) will virtually always garner a higher return than a known commodity that is known to be dreadfulyl awful (Williams.) Williams may actually have negative value at this point.

I'd like to think that he coudl turn it around and become a somewhat dependable fifth starter for us, but honestly there's no reason to think that he will. I didn't see his last game, but based on other's comments here, an 80 mph fastball and a 67 mph curve aren't remotely close to getting it done.