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REDSEER
04-21-2006, 10:25 AM
Any idea on what kind of player we can expect to be dealt?
I just hope it's not a pitcher.........about any position player outside of Votto, Bruce, or Denorfia is fine with me though......

RBA
04-21-2006, 10:27 AM
Not a pitcher? I'll give them a choice of pitchers they can have.

REDSEER
04-21-2006, 10:30 AM
I'm just scared that if we give them one of our pitchers it will be a bailey or wood type talent........

lollipopcurve
04-21-2006, 10:31 AM
My guess is that it's any 2005 draftee except Bruce or Wood (leaving Ward, Lecure, Rosales, etc.). Cash if the Indians don't want any of them. Or, it could be anyone from the minors except for a select few the Reds "reserved" (Bailey, Bruce, Wood, Denorfia, perhaps Votto...).

Krivsky was quoted as saying he was "aggressive" in pursuing Phillips, so I think there are some decent prospects on the table (it won't be Bailey -- he'd have been exchanged already). I'm just hoping he didn't sacrifice Bruce or Wood.

Newman4
04-21-2006, 10:37 AM
How about this guy?

http://www.racingone.com/images/sspics/hires/631b.jpg

Since it appears he's friends with Danny Graves. :D

Hell, we'll even throw in the go cart. :dancingco

indyred
04-21-2006, 10:39 AM
I'm sure it's a deal where the reds protect a certain # of guys then the Tribe picks a guy from the minors......... I do wonder if the deal is at all performance based.......so the better the #'s BP puts up, the less # of player's the Reds can protect............

bengalred
04-21-2006, 10:43 AM
I'm just glad that we have Phillips. Great pickup.

lollipopcurve
04-21-2006, 10:49 AM
I do wonder if the deal is at all performance based.......so the better the #'s BP puts up, the less # of player's the Reds can protect............

Possible, but I doubt it. They would have had to agree on specific performance parameters for Phillips, and that could have allowed the Reds to limit his exposure (thus reducing the return for the Indians). My guess is that there's a list of prospects the Indians are evaluating -- and if they don't want any of them, they'll take the $.

The more I think about it, the more I think the prospects could be middle infielders -- Bergolla, Olmedo, Rosales, maybe even the Michaels Griffin and DeJesus -- guys who could slide into BP's MI spot in the Cleveland system.

Sea Ray
04-21-2006, 10:49 AM
My guess is that it's any 2005 draftee except Bruce or Wood (leaving Ward, Lecure, Rosales, etc.). Cash if the Indians don't want any of them. Or, it could be anyone from the minors except for a select few the Reds "reserved" (Bailey, Bruce, Wood, Denorfia, perhaps Votto...).

Krivsky was quoted as saying he was "aggressive" in pursuing Phillips, so I think there are some decent prospects on the table (it won't be Bailey -- he'd have been exchanged already). I'm just hoping he didn't sacrifice Bruce or Wood.

If it's Bruce or Wood then Krivsky is a horrible GM. You don't trade minor league talent like that for a DFA player. I don't care how well he does. I would hope it is not a top ten minor league talent. I would expect it to be a Jake Robbins type but maybe that's just wishful thinking

westofyou
04-21-2006, 10:50 AM
I don't care how well he does. I would hope it is not a top ten minor league talent.Top Ten Reds ML talent is the fast food of MLB, missing it would be no problem.

RedsManRick
04-21-2006, 10:53 AM
The fact that it was a PTBNL does suggest that it was a 2005 guy....

edabbs44
04-21-2006, 11:01 AM
No way it is anyone of importance (Wood, Bruce, Bailey). If it is, Krivsky should be next on the guillotene line, right after OBrien. Phillips WAS a top tier prospect, so it shouldn't be one of the Reds' best minor leaguers.

Shaknb8k
04-21-2006, 11:02 AM
Other than Bruce or Wood (its not going to be Bailey) i could care less who they give. I understand that Ward and Leclure could be pretty good players but neither will ever be considered the type of player Philips could end up being if he only becomes half of the player everyone thought he would be. Plus if were looking towards Ward and Leclure to accompany Wood and Bailey in the rotation someday that is wishful thinking. I still love the move Krivsky made and im not even bringing Philips red hot start into consideration but in the long run i really believe Philips could be a good player for the reds.

Danny Serafini
04-21-2006, 11:07 AM
It's likely to be a bum. The Reds had the Indians over a barrel, either take a guy who's not worth much in a trade or take nothing at all when you lose him on waivers. It likely won't be anyone substantial going to Cleveland.

Joseph
04-21-2006, 11:13 AM
It's likely to be a bum. The Reds had the Indians over a barrel, either take a guy who's not worth much in a trade or take nothing at all when you lose him on waivers. It likely won't be anyone substantial going to Cleveland.

Exactly. It's likely a reserve A baller who is already 28 or something.

LincolnparkRed
04-21-2006, 11:23 AM
One question though, does PTBNL always have to come from the 40 man roster? I thought yes but now I am not sure.

dougdirt
04-21-2006, 11:34 AM
Top Ten Reds ML talent is the fast food of MLB, missing it would be no problem.

Maybe I am in the minority, but I think the Reds top 10 is quite underrated as far as rankings goes. I would sit the system somewhere around 20-24, and I think that anyone in the top 6 of our top 10 (Bailey, Bruce, Wood, Denorfia, Lecure, Votto) would be a mistake of letting go. I was thinking along the lines of the best they would be willing to pull of would be an Olmedo or Javon Moran (who I would like to hold onto personally).
Of course, this is just my opinion but I think our system is slightly underrated (not that it can be rated much lower as it sits in the bottom 3 of almost every ranking I have come across).

PuffyPig
04-21-2006, 11:37 AM
There's zero chance it will be a Bailey,Wood, or Ward etc. type.

Settle down.

lollipopcurve
04-21-2006, 03:53 PM
There's zero chance it will be a Bailey,Wood, or Ward etc. type.

Bailey, Bruce and Wood, I agree. But I think it could be Ward or anybody else from the 05 draft.

I think there was some bidding for Phillips, so I doubt the Reds could have won without offering a list of solid prospects.

Aronchis
04-21-2006, 04:08 PM
A Indians friend of mine thinks it is Bergolla.

KronoRed
04-21-2006, 04:08 PM
A Indians friend of mine thinks it is Bergolla.
I'd be ok with that.

dougdirt
04-21-2006, 04:18 PM
I agree with Krono, I have always liked Bergolla myself, but I think Phillips has a glove just as good with better offensive abilities. On a slight side note, who said Bergolla had no power? Two home runs and two doubles in 27 at bats this season....still cant take a walk though.

Matt700wlw
04-21-2006, 04:20 PM
Any idea on what kind of player we can expect to be dealt?
I just hope it's not a pitcher.........about any position player outside of Votto, Bruce, or Denorfia is fine with me though......

Give 'em Williams :evil:

OnBaseMachine
04-21-2006, 06:49 PM
I'm pretty sure the deadline for the PTNBL was set as June 1st, thus making it impossible for the PTBNL to be someone from the 2005 draft. A draftee can't be traded until a year after the day he signs.

Example: Travis Wood signed on June 16, 2005, meaning he couldn't be traded until June 16, 2006.

Caveat Emperor
04-21-2006, 07:06 PM
A Indians friend of mine thinks it is Bergolla.

He's definately the "Man without a future" if the club thinks Phillips is the answer at 2nd base.

Though, it'd be replacing one no-hit 2 bagger for another as far as the Indians are concerned. I guess Bergolla does have the advantage of not clogging the 25 man.

TC81190
04-21-2006, 08:07 PM
I'd be fine with Bergolla. LeCure, Ward, Wood, Bruce or really any of the pitchers we drafted in the first ten rounds last year would really piss me off big time.

Team Clark
04-21-2006, 09:15 PM
A Indians friend of mine thinks it is Bergolla.


I heard Bergolla as well. Typically a list of players is submitted when one of these types of trades is made. Both parties agree to the players on the list with the intention of one player being taken during an evaluation period. If no one is up to par when the player is to be named a cash value is substituted. Krivsky "probably" offered someone the Indians did not have a good "book" on and they want time to evaluate that player.

redsmetz
04-22-2006, 08:58 AM
From this morning's Post:


Don't think that because Brandon Phillips is suddenly lighting up the National League, the Reds will be forced to give up an elite prospect to the Indians when they complete the trade made earlier this month.

Phillips was dealt for a player to be named later or cash, and the transaction likely will be finalized by June.

Often times, the player to be named is someone who was taken in the previous year's draft, as players cannot be traded until one year after they've been drafted. GM Wayne Krivsky said that's not the case in the Philips deal, but wouldn't get into any other specifics. All that's certain is that the player will be a minor leaguer not on the 40-man roster.

The parameters of any transaction involving a player to be named are set when the deal is made, so it doesn't matter how well or poorly a player performs after switching clubs.

BigRed
04-22-2006, 11:32 AM
Thanks RedsMetz, that clears it up quite a bit. I didn't think that they would be including any of our upper tier prospects for a guy that the Indians didn't think could make their 25 man as a utility guy.

Sea Ray
04-22-2006, 11:38 AM
The parameters of any transaction involving a player to be named are set when the deal is made, so it doesn't matter how well or poorly a player performs after switching clubs.

I'm not so sure I agree with this as a blanket statement. Sometimes the parameters that are set at the time of the transaction are based on performance. Unless this author had inside knowledge, I don't know how he could know what the parameters were in this deal.

Caveat Emperor
04-22-2006, 12:22 PM
I'm not so sure I agree with this as a blanket statement. Sometimes the parameters that are set at the time of the transaction are based on performance. Unless this author had inside knowledge, I don't know how he could know what the parameters were in this deal.

TC is right, based on what I know of the working and machinations of a baseball franchise.

It usually works something like this:

REDS: We want Brandon Phillips
INDIANS: Well, what are you offering
REDS: We'll give Player X?
INDIANS: Well, we want player W
REDS: Not happening, we're offering Players X, Y or Z.
INDIANS: OK -- we want to clear the roster spot / make the DFA deadline, so we'll make the trade and figure out which one of those guys we want later.

Now, there's some flexibility there -- but generally speaking once the Reds have offered a few players, they're locked into that offer. If Phillips would've been a turd, the Indians probably still could've had their pick of the offered players for him.

Mario-Rijo
04-22-2006, 08:14 PM
One little sidenote here. If the parameters had an inclusion of some type of performance based return, then putting the June 1st date on it seriously could hurt us more than the Tribe. Once the NL gets an idea on him, his performance could drop dramatically. Most clubs won't see him more than one series during that span!

However it has it's upside too. But I can see already a few things that could hinder his development and those are the things he has already no doubt had problems with. I don't really want to expand on that statement just yet, as to bring out the Boo-Birds. Of course I think most of us can see some of it already. But I also see a whole lot of good. We shall see.

In closing I would rather it be Olmedo than Bergolla. Just because of the two years age difference more than anything.

Bill
04-23-2006, 11:05 PM
In the recent past in deals like this, Shapiro has settled for guys like Buzzie buzachero sp?, Tom Mastny and Bear Bay- all pitchers with some success but a seemingly low ceiling. Medlock, Guevara or Shafer might fit this mold. Their system is pretty full now with many SP prospects in the pen though. I figure it will be a middle inflielder as that is their weakest area in the minors. Of course Bergolla is on the 40 so he is ruled out. Anderson, Rosales?

HalMorrisRules
04-25-2006, 10:20 AM
Eric Karabell said in his blog on ESPN.com today that the deal was finished and that is was for cash only, no players. He said he was sold for less than a million dollars. Tkae it for what its worth.

flyer85
04-25-2006, 10:37 AM
Eric Karabell said in his blog on ESPN.com today that the deal was finished and that is was for cash only, no players. He said he was sold for less than a million dollars. Tkae it for what its worth.must have been some of that Casey payflex.

HalMorrisRules
04-25-2006, 10:47 AM
I also saw this article about the trade from the Indian's perspective.

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/sports/14422299.htm

pedro
04-25-2006, 11:57 AM
Wow. the Reds actually sent cash the other way.

As Scarlet said...."after all tomorrow is another day"

Caveman Techie
04-25-2006, 12:38 PM
I'm sorry did I wake up in Bizarro world? Did someone say that the Reds sent money to another team?

That can't be, they'd never do that. Don't they know we're a small market team!

lollipopcurve
04-25-2006, 01:08 PM
If the Reds had taken cash for a prospect like Phillips, the national media would have excoriated the franchise, as they did following the so-called firesale of 2003. But since it's the Indians, who've had recent success and are run by media darlings Shapiro and Antonetti, it will warrant nary a peep.

Reds Nd2
04-25-2006, 02:18 PM
Typically a list of players is submitted when one of these types of trades is made. Both parties agree to the players on the list with the intention of one player being taken during an evaluation period. If no one is up to par when the player is to be named a cash value is substituted.

I've got a question TCII. Do the teams also include a list of players they might want from another team? For example, the Indians give the Reds a list of players they would like to have from another team. They would do this because they aren't really a good fit to trade with those teams themselves. Does this ever happen?

Sea Ray
04-25-2006, 03:30 PM
TC is right, based on what I know of the working and machinations of a baseball franchise.

It usually works something like this:

REDS: We want Brandon Phillips
INDIANS: Well, what are you offering
REDS: We'll give Player X?
INDIANS: Well, we want player W
REDS: Not happening, we're offering Players X, Y or Z.
INDIANS: OK -- we want to clear the roster spot / make the DFA deadline, so we'll make the trade and figure out which one of those guys we want later.

Now, there's some flexibility there -- but generally speaking once the Reds have offered a few players, they're locked into that offer. If Phillips would've been a turd, the Indians probably still could've had their pick of the offered players for him.

Well sometimes there's a couple different lists to choose from and if Phillips performs well then the Tribe gets to pick from the A list and if he hits .238 they have to pick from the C list or whatever. I recall when the Reds traded Chris Hammond to the Marlins in the early 90s Hammond did great and as a result we were able to take a pitcher with a 95+ MPH fastball, Hector Carrasco. This was because Hammond did well enough to warrant Carrasco who was on the A list.

Sabo Fan
04-25-2006, 04:26 PM
If the Reds had taken cash for a prospect like Phillips, the national media would have excoriated the franchise, as they did following the so-called firesale of 2003. But since it's the Indians, who've had recent success and are run by media darlings Shapiro and Antonetti, it will warrant nary a peep.

Media darlings who have shown they actually know what they're doing, a vast improvement over previous regimes in Cincinnati. The criticism that would come if the deal was reversed would be on the money if you ask me. The Reds are in no position to take cash for any player, the Indians are.

lollipopcurve
04-25-2006, 04:40 PM
The Reds are in no position to take cash for any player, the Indians are.

How's that?

Seems to me the teams that need the money most are the ones who should be excused for taking it. It's a business.

Caveat Emperor
04-25-2006, 04:46 PM
How's that?

Seems to me the teams that need the money most are the ones who should be excused for taking it. It's a business.

The Reds are cash strapped, but their also prospect-poor.

They need talent more than they need cash, at this point.

Gallen5862
04-25-2006, 05:23 PM
Maybe this was part of the money the Reds got for selling Timo Perez to the Cardinals.

Cyclone792
04-25-2006, 05:35 PM
I'll look at this another way ...

This could be putting to use some of the cash from the savings in the Casey/Williams deal. Who really knows what aspect of the budget allowed the Reds to say, "ok, we'll send a million bucks," but it at least sounds a lot better to think the cash saved from the Casey deal could have played a role.