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Rojo
08-24-2006, 06:15 PM
Ok, so you want to ban pickups, sports cars and RV's then too?

They typically have very poor MPG and in some cases are very large.

I don't want to ban anything. I just think we need to cut the number of them. Maybe an SUV tax. Maybe making people realize that they're not safe.

Rojo
08-24-2006, 06:17 PM
I work in a city, and unless I'm driving an SUV -- I'm walking. Its a long walk from where I live to downtown.

SUVs are a necessary evil in our current society. The answer has, and will continue to be, better, more reliable, cleaner public transportaiton from the suburbs to the city -- but that will never happen in this town.

Why are they necessary?

And why do you think reliable clean public transportation can't happen? Do you mean its technically impossible?

Caveat Emperor
08-24-2006, 06:58 PM
Why are they necessary?

And why do you think reliable clean public transportation can't happen? Do you mean its technically impossible?

Necessary because there are some people, myself included, who actually need to drive an SUV for reasons other than "I like to sit high-up on the road." Sedans are nice for lots of people -- not me, as I've explained in previous posts. I'd include in this category people who live off the beaten path in areas where it snows a great deal, etc. Not everyone who drives an SUV is a vain jerk.

As for public transportation -- I'm not saying it could never happen, but I am saying it's not likely in a town as financially conservative as Cincinnati that you'd ever get the majority of voters to open their wallets to fund a project like a light rail system. It's failed miserably in the past, and I don't see support for it growing.

Rojo
08-24-2006, 09:37 PM
As for public transportation -- I'm not saying it could never happen, but I am saying it's not likely in a town as financially conservative as Cincinnati that you'd ever get the majority of voters to open their wallets to fund a project like a light rail system. It's failed miserably in the past, and I don't see support for it growing.

You're probably right but here's something I don't get. Everyone thinks that mass transit is a good idea but seem to think nobody else does. Not trying to pick on you. I've been pondering this for a while.

Ltlabner
08-24-2006, 09:47 PM
You're probably right but here's something I don't get. Everyone thinks that mass transit is a good idea but seem to think nobody else does. Not trying to pick on you. I've been pondering this for a while.

I think public transportation gets two knocks against it. I'm not saying this is right or correct, but I think might be how people think.

1) It's the typical I want it, but don't want to pay for it syndrome. Public transportation....yes, good idea. Raise my taxes to pay for it, NO WAY!

2) Public transportation requires some modification to lifestyles. And people don't like change. You hop on the light rail at station A but it only takes you to pre-assigned stations. If you want to go somewhere else once you are on the train, no dice. You have to plan ahead and work around the "limitations" of the light rail system. I don't think people want to give up the convienence of hopping in the car and taking off.

Again, I'm not saying these are good reasons, just some reasons why people are reluctant to actually implement public transportation.

zombie-a-go-go
08-25-2006, 09:34 AM
Before mass transit will get off the ground, it's going to need a PR firm. The culture of public transportation has to change. People don't want to ride the bus because there's a very real social stigma attached to it. Remove the stigma, and the people will buy in.

Light rail running from the suburbs to urban hubs combined with shuttle systems within those hubs would be leapt upon, I think, if people didn't equate public transportation with smelly poor people.

dman
08-25-2006, 09:39 AM
I don't want to ban anything. I just think we need to cut the number of them. Maybe an SUV tax. Maybe making people realize that they're not safe.
You see, this is where it starts to trickle down farther. This serves the mentality that if one person can't have it then nobody should is what this comes down to. Caveat had it right when he said that there are some people who have to have these kind of vehicles (SUV's, large pickups etc.). When you look at farmers and ranchers and those types, they absolutely couldn't do their work without these kind of vehicles. Same with a many of construction workers.

Even if for only the pleasure of owning one, I have no problem with it. I tried being economical by owning a 4 cyl. Ford Ranger, but as I stated earler in the thread, I had to move up to a more powerful truck, preferably a 4-door truck, to be able to haul my boat. I also tried being more economical on that avenue also by keeping the boat at the marina in the summer, but as the prices went up, even with high fuel prices, it became more economical for me to just hook it up to the truck and take it out at my pleasure.

If I understand it correctly you would support some kind of "Recreation and Pleasure" Tax.

Taxes are a necessary evil, but it's ludicrous to want to come up with a tax for every little thing that we don't like or that we "perceive" to be a menace.

zombie-a-go-go
08-25-2006, 09:42 AM
If I understand it correctly you would support some kind of "Recreation and Pleasure" Tax.

Can we use it to subsidize public transportation? :cool:

Ltlabner
08-25-2006, 10:10 AM
I don't want to ban anything. I just think we need to cut the number of them. Maybe an SUV tax. Maybe making people realize that they're not safe.

I guess I still don't understand why you want to "cut down on them". You've shared safety, which all cars are unsafe. Waste of resources, but many other vechiles are "wastefull" of gas and you don't want to cut down on those. And global warming. I'll leave GW out because that might start to get too political.

(BTW, I think people already know SUV's are unsafe...in certian situations. If you want to take corners fast then SUV's are very unsafe. After the blitz of accidents people are pretty aware that you can't take the offramp at 60mph and expect to make it.)

I guess it just comes across to me that you don't like SUV's because they are big and scarry and you find them to be too "extravagent" so they should be gone? And that's where I brissle up because I don't like the idea of telling others what they can and can't drive based on what I prefer and like.

And I'm not trying to say people should be able to drive whatever they want (ie tanks, nitro burning funny cars, etc) but I guess I don't see SUV's to be the horrbile menice on soceity that others do because all autos impact those around us in one from or another.

Caveat Emperor
08-25-2006, 10:10 AM
You're probably right but here's something I don't get. Everyone thinks that mass transit is a good idea but seem to think nobody else does. Not trying to pick on you. I've been pondering this for a while.

People (especially people in Cincinnati) are vehemently opposed to taxes unless they find the alternative to taxation totally reprehensible. The only way you ever get people consenting to voluntary tax hikes is by threatening them with something if they don't support it -- like a school saying it will cut bus service and sports if they don't get a levy passed or a team saying it will leave town if a new stadium isn't built.

Plus, lots of people think that mass transit is good idea, but something that they personally wouldn't use. It's hard to appreciate the benefit of a good mass transit system and the utility of it until you actually see one working.

Ltlabner
08-25-2006, 10:13 AM
This serves the mentality that if one person can't have it then nobody should is what this comes down to.

I'm sure this will stirr up controversy, but I really can't stand that line of reasoning. My neighbor has nicer countertops, that's not fair! My coworker got $.03/year more of a raise, that's not fair! Some people can afford to own boats, that's not fair!

I just don't understand the, "let's make everybody equally miserable" approach.

westofyou
08-25-2006, 11:00 AM
Before mass transit will get off the ground, it's going to need a PR firm.

Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!

http://jamesbrief.com/simp/111.jpg

Roy Tucker
08-25-2006, 11:12 AM
http://www.plan59.com/images/JPGs/van58mono.jpg

westofyou
08-25-2006, 11:13 AM
I see McDonalds made it to the future....

zombie-a-go-go
08-25-2006, 11:50 AM
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!

http://jamesbrief.com/simp/111.jpg

Next to the Masons episode, best song in a Simpsons episode bar none IMO.*

*Yes, I know.

BoxingRed
08-25-2006, 12:36 PM
Sorry to jump in late on this, but ultimately my problem with SUVs, big trucks, RVs etc. is not that they can be huge and obnoxious, rather it is that they are horribly inefficient.
At some point people are going to realize 10 MPG isn't gonna cut it whether your issue is national security, global warming or personal economics. Foreign automakers have known this for decades, primarily because their customers were already paying out the wazoo at the pump. Ultimately, this will be the downfall of the american auto companies who, apparently, have to be taken over by foreign companies before they are willing to make even the slightest changes toward more efficient vehicles.
I saw an panel with Wes Clark, a long time environmental frontliner as well as a superb military man, and he basically said, Let's face it, Americans aren't going to give up their vehicles, so we're going to have to find a way to make them work more efficiently.
And to quote the 6 million dollar man: We have the technology. The question is, do we have the guts and are we willing look past the bumper in front of us to see the long term benefits of putting it to work before it's too late?

RANDY IN INDY
08-25-2006, 01:18 PM
So a law abiding person who owns an SUV and drives short distances is putting folks at more perilous risk, doing more to harm the environment and using more gasoline than the compact car driver who is driving tremendous distances, weaving in and out of traffic (just because their car is small and they can) leaving a trail of black smoke and cussing me because they can't see around my vehicle? Somehow, I don't get it and I see it nearly every time that I drive.

GAC
08-26-2006, 06:13 AM
So a law abiding person who owns an SUV and drives short distances is putting folks at more perilous risk, doing more to harm the environment and using more gasoline than the compact car driver who is driving tremendous distances, weaving in and out of traffic (just because their car is small and they can) leaving a trail of black smoke and cussing me because they can't see around my vehicle? Somehow, I don't get it and I see it nearly every time that I drive.

I say we bring back the Covair! Or maybe the Pinto, Vage, or Gremlin!

http://home.cfl.rr.com/csduffey/Rennlist/mom_corvair.jpg

Lets face it..... man is just not very good stewards of this earth. ;)

dman
08-26-2006, 08:10 AM
I say we bring back the Covair! Or maybe the Pinto, Vage, or Gremlin!
Are you kidding? I want the Chevelles, LeMans, and the original GTO's, Impala SS, and those types of vehicles.

creek14
08-26-2006, 09:19 AM
This thread sure went to hell.

Heath
08-26-2006, 01:53 PM
This thread sure went to hell.
http://www.rpi.edu/dept/finance/images/bursar/traffic%20jam.jpg

btw - gas is $2.22 at the Sam's Club in North Dayton.

See you there.

dman
08-26-2006, 02:45 PM
This thread sure went to hell.
It took a lot longer than I expected though

RFS62
08-27-2006, 10:41 AM
I drive my car whenever possible. It gets 24 mpg. Many times I need an SUV because of the nature of my job. It get's about 16 mpg, but sometimes I have to go places where only a 4 wheel drive will go.

I have a very hard time having anyone tell me what I can or can't drive. Especially someone who doesn't even own a car.

dman
08-27-2006, 11:31 AM
I drive my car whenever possible. It gets 24 mpg. Many times I need an SUV because of the nature of my job. It get's about 16 mpg, but sometimes I have to go places where only a 4 wheel drive will go.

I have a very hard time having anyone tell me what I can or can't drive. Especially someone who doesn't even own a car.
Roger that

RANDY IN INDY
08-27-2006, 03:20 PM
I drive my car whenever possible. It gets 24 mpg. Many times I need an SUV because of the nature of my job. It get's about 16 mpg, but sometimes I have to go places where only a 4 wheel drive will go.

I have a very hard time having anyone tell me what I can or can't drive. Especially someone who doesn't even own a car.

Same here! Traveling through the mountains of West Viginia in bad weather is not a lot of fun without 4-wheel drive.

GAC
08-27-2006, 09:57 PM
Same here! Traveling through the mountains of West Viginia in bad weather is not a lot of fun without 4-wheel drive.

So what kind of trade-in did you get for the horse and cart? :lol:

http://www.sip.ie/sip019B/horsecart/horse.jpg

RANDY IN INDY
08-28-2006, 07:55 AM
You flatlanders. It was a mule, and a darn good one too! (Convertible cart as well) Better traction in them there hills. Geeee..................hawww!

:D

Rojo
08-28-2006, 09:16 PM
I'm sure this will stirr up controversy, but I really can't stand that line of reasoning. My neighbor has nicer countertops, that's not fair! My coworker got $.03/year more of a raise, that's not fair! Some people can afford to own boats, that's not fair!

I just don't understand the, "let's make everybody equally miserable" approach.

Nobody ever said that it wasn't fair. I don't understand buying a SUV, why would I be envious?

Rojo
08-28-2006, 09:28 PM
You've shared safety, which all cars are unsafe. Waste of resources, but many other vechiles are "wastefull" of gas and you don't want to cut down on those.

This is a canard. All vehicles are unsafe but not all vehicles are unsafe to the same degree. (As luck would have it, my mother was just hit by an SUV this weekend). All vehicles use gas, but not all do so with spectacular inefficiency.


I guess it just comes across to me that you don't like SUV's because they are big and scarry and you find them to be too "extravagent" so they should be gone? And that's where I brissle up because I don't like the idea of telling others what they can and can't drive based on what I prefer and like.

Its not about me.

Ltlabner
08-28-2006, 09:53 PM
This is a canard. All vehicles are unsafe but not all vehicles are unsafe to the same degree. (As luck would have it, my mother was just hit by an SUV this weekend). All vehicles use gas, but not all do so with spectacular inefficiency.


Safety: According to an article on edmunds.com "In the latest crash figures available from 2003, provided by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (see chart below), there were 142 fatalities per million registered vehicles for the smallest cars. That figure drops to 108 fatalities for the next larger class of cars. For large sedans, that number drops to 61 per million. For small SUVs, the figure was 75 deaths per million as compared with 62 for large SUVs. For pickups, totals increased to 124 per million for small trucks and 102 per million for large.

Spectacular ineffeciency: I found this on autoweb.com - The 5 worst MPG of SUV's ranked from 15 to 17mpg. The 5 worst MPG of passenger cars? 18 to 20MPG. That's a 3mpg difference, hardly "spectacular". The 5 worst trucks for MPG came in at 12 to 18MPG. So if you really want to do something about wasting resources, perhaps you should aim your ire at truck owners.

So your assertions about SUV's are inncorrect on both counts.

Ltlabner
08-28-2006, 09:59 PM
Its not about me.

Something we agree on Rojo.

You should have no choice in what I drive, nor should I have any say-so in what you choose to drive.

Rojo
08-29-2006, 03:32 AM
Safety: According to an article on edmunds.com "In the latest crash figures available from 2003, provided by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (see chart below), there were 142 fatalities per million registered vehicles for the smallest cars. That figure drops to 108 fatalities for the next larger class of cars. For large sedans, that number drops to 61 per million. For small SUVs, the figure was 75 deaths per million as compared with 62 for large SUVs. For pickups, totals increased to 124 per million for small trucks and 102 per million for large.

Spectacular ineffeciency: I found this on autoweb.com - The 5 worst MPG of SUV's ranked from 15 to 17mpg. The 5 worst MPG of passenger cars? 18 to 20MPG. That's a 3mpg difference, hardly "spectacular". The 5 worst trucks for MPG came in at 12 to 18MPG. So if you really want to do something about wasting resources, perhaps you should aim your ire at truck owners.

So your assertions about SUV's are inncorrect on both counts.

First, comparing Escalades to Lincoln Town Cars is hardly a fair comparison of fuel standards (and the Town Cars still beat them -- 3mpg is signifigant when multiplied over millions of drivers)

Second, you oversimplified the safety ratings.

Make/Model Type/ Driver Deaths
Toyota Avalon/large /40
Chrysler Town & Country/minivan 31
Toyota Camry/mid-size 41
Volkswagen Jetta/subcompact 47
Ford Windstar/minivan 37
Nissan Maxima/mid-size 53
Honda Accord/mid-size 54
Chevrolet Venture/minivan 51
Buick Century mid-size 70
Subaru Legacy/Outback/compact/74
Mazda 626/compact 70
Chevrolet Malibu/mid-size 71
Chevrolet Suburban/S.U.V. 46
Jeep Grand Cherokee/S.U.V. 61
Honda Civic/subcompact 84
Toyota Corolla/subcompact 81
Ford Expedition/S.U.V. 55
GMC Jimmy/S.U.V. 76
Ford Taurus/mid-size 78
Nissan Altima/compact 72
Mercury Marquis/large 80
Nissan Sentra/subcompact 95
Toyota 4Runner/S.U.V. 94
Chevrolet Tahoe/S.U.V. 68
Dodge Stratus/mid-size 103
Lincoln Town Car/large 100
Ford Explorer/S.U.V. 88
Pontiac Grand Am/compact 118
Toyota Tacoma/pickup 111
Chevrolet Cavalier/subcompact 146
Dodge Neon/subcompact 161
Pontiac Sunfire/subcompact 158
Ford F-Series/pickup 110

If you really want to protect yourself and your family, the minivan is the way to go. And the above is about the driver, who I don't really care about. Its there business if they want to kill themselves. I do care about the dangers posed to others. All these numbers are higher because of profusion of SUV's.

Ever heard, "your freedom to swing your fists ends at my face"? I too am leary of government fiats. I'm not saying we should outlaw anything. Hell, I'd "in" law a bunch of stuff. Many freedoms are curtailed in a national or social interests. Highway safety and energy independence are laudable.

Ltlabner
08-29-2006, 08:19 AM
Make/Model Type/ Driver Deaths
Toyota Avalon/large /40
Chrysler Town & Country/minivan 31
Toyota Camry/mid-size 41
Volkswagen Jetta/subcompact 47
Ford Windstar/minivan 37
Nissan Maxima/mid-size 53
Honda Accord/mid-size 54
Chevrolet Venture/minivan 51
Buick Century mid-size 70
Subaru Legacy/Outback/compact/74
Mazda 626/compact 70
Chevrolet Malibu/mid-size 71
Chevrolet Suburban/S.U.V. 46
Jeep Grand Cherokee/S.U.V. 61
Honda Civic/subcompact 84
Toyota Corolla/subcompact 81
Ford Expedition/S.U.V. 55
GMC Jimmy/S.U.V. 76
Ford Taurus/mid-size 78
Nissan Altima/compact 72
Mercury Marquis/large 80
Nissan Sentra/subcompact 95
Toyota 4Runner/S.U.V. 94
Chevrolet Tahoe/S.U.V. 68
Dodge Stratus/mid-size 103
Lincoln Town Car/large 100
Ford Explorer/S.U.V. 88
Pontiac Grand Am/compact 118
Toyota Tacoma/pickup 111
Chevrolet Cavalier/subcompact 146
Dodge Neon/subcompact 161
Pontiac Sunfire/subcompact 158
Ford F-Series/pickup 110

I guess we'll just have to agree to dissagree since right here in your list is proof that plenty of small cars are more dangerous than SUV's (Grand Am, Neon, Sunfire) while Civics and Corrolla's have just as many driver deaths as the worst of the SUV's. Yet you choose to ignore that. Once again your assertion that SUV's are horribly unsafe but small cars are generally safer is just plain wrong. If anything, if we want to improve highway safety we should "cut down" the number of compacts and subcompact cars out on the road. We'll get you directions to the local impound lot so you can turn in your small car for something much safer ;)

And about wasting fuel, I noticed that you glossed over the pickup truck MPG. Those are actually as "spectacularlly inneffeicent" as SUV's. Should we "cut down" the number of those on the road also?

Razor Shines
08-29-2006, 12:46 PM
Make/Model Type/ Driver Deaths
Toyota Avalon/large /40
Chrysler Town & Country/minivan 31
Toyota Camry/mid-size 41
Volkswagen Jetta/subcompact 47
Ford Windstar/minivan 37
Nissan Maxima/mid-size 53
Honda Accord/mid-size 54
Chevrolet Venture/minivan 51
Buick Century mid-size 70
Subaru Legacy/Outback/compact/74
Mazda 626/compact 70
Chevrolet Malibu/mid-size 71
Chevrolet Suburban/S.U.V. 46
Jeep Grand Cherokee/S.U.V. 61
Honda Civic/subcompact 84
Toyota Corolla/subcompact 81
Ford Expedition/S.U.V. 55
GMC Jimmy/S.U.V. 76
Ford Taurus/mid-size 78
Nissan Altima/compact 72
Mercury Marquis/large 80
Nissan Sentra/subcompact 95
Toyota 4Runner/S.U.V. 94
Chevrolet Tahoe/S.U.V. 68
Dodge Stratus/mid-size 103
Lincoln Town Car/large 100
Ford Explorer/S.U.V. 88
Pontiac Grand Am/compact 118
Toyota Tacoma/pickup 111
Chevrolet Cavalier/subcompact 146
Dodge Neon/subcompact 161
Pontiac Sunfire/subcompact 158
Ford F-Series/pickup 110

Other than the mini van the randomness of that list is a little surprising. To me this seems to say that it matters more how the person is driving or how the person that hits them is driving more than what they are driving. Does this list actually suggest more than anything else that people who drive mini vans are more cautious drivers over all? I don't know, but an argument could be made there.

Ltlabner
08-29-2006, 12:58 PM
Other than the mini van the randomness of that list is a little surprising. To me this seems to say that it matters more how the person is driving or how the person that hits them is driving more than what they are driving. Does this list actually suggest more than anything else that people who drive mini vans are more cautious drivers over all? I don't know, but an argument could be made there.

I think that argument could be fairly made. Minivan drivers are typically older, people with children and female. On average those demographic groups drive more safely than the average driver. Put them all together with the generally larger and heavier frames of minivans and you get lower deaths per million drivers.

Conversely many drivers of compact and subcompact cars are younger drivers, both men and women. Younger drivers take more risks and generally are poorer drivers than say your average middle aged male with a family. Add younger drivers to lighter and smaller framed vechiles and you'll get higer deaths per million drivers.

OldRightHander
08-29-2006, 01:34 PM
I think that argument could be fairly made. Minivan drivers are typically older, people with children and female. On average those demographic groups drive more safely than the average driver. Put them all together with the generally larger and heavier frames of minivans and you get lower deaths per million drivers.

Conversely many drivers of compact and subcompact cars are younger drivers, both men and women. Younger drivers take more risks and generally are poorer drivers than say your average middle aged male with a family. Add younger drivers to lighter and smaller framed vechiles and you'll get higer deaths per million drivers.

You just nailed it. I spend a lot of time on the road each day, usually around 400 miles a day, and see a lot of tendencies depending on the type of car people drive. This is what I have observed as far as the safest to least safe driving tendencies related to vehicle type.

1. Semi trucks. I know there are a few bad apples out there, those trucks that use their size to intimidate people, but for the most part I think these are the best behaved drivers on the road. You only see them in the left lane if they're passing a slower vehicle, (which can be annoying if they're going barely faster than the slower one, but that's a different story) they use their turn signals well in advance of a manouver, and they are more observant of road signs than most other drivers. If a sign points out a lane closure ahead, these folks will be the first to get over to the lane that isn't ending instead of waiting until the last possible moment and then causing more problems.

2. Buses. Many of the things I have observed about semis apply here as well.

3. The various other forms of commercial vehicles. Box trucks, vans, small buses, and what not. These folks are usually pretty safe, but the smaller size leads to more speeding than you will see from semis.

4. Mini vans or SUVs driven by the stereotypical "soccer mom." Here it is the driver and not the vehicle that dictates the driving style. You're dealing with a more responsible type of person for the most part.

5. Small sporty cars and motorcycles. Ltlabner pretty much said all that needs to be said. I see these people weaving in and out of traffic more often, passing on the right, tailgating, not using turn signals or ignoring other vehicles that are signalling, speeding excessively, etc. If I see a sporty convertible being driven in a responsible manner, I generally assume it's a middle aged man in his "mid life crisis car."

Razor Shines
08-29-2006, 01:54 PM
1. Semi trucks. I know there are a few bad apples out there, those trucks that use their size to intimidate people, but for the most part I think these are the best behaved drivers on the road. You only see them in the left lane if they're passing a slower vehicle, (which can be annoying if they're going barely faster than the slower one, but that's a different story) they use their turn signals well in advance of a manouver, and they are more observant of road signs than most other drivers. If a sign points out a lane closure ahead, these folks will be the first to get over to the lane that isn't ending instead of waiting until the last possible moment and then causing more problems.

I agree 100%. While I was in college I worked summers at Coca-Cola and road along with Semi drivers, to help them unload at thier stops, and I found out that almost all of them were the most considerate drivers on the road.


5. Small sporty cars and motorcycles. Ltlabner pretty much said all that needs to be said. I see these people weaving in and out of traffic more often, passing on the right, tailgating, not using turn signals or ignoring other vehicles that are signalling, speeding excessively, etc. If I see a sporty convertible being driven in a responsible manner, I generally assume it's a middle aged man in his "mid life crisis car."
I also drive for work a great deal and the bumper stickers that I think are the most ironic are the ones that say something like "Share the road motorcycles are everywhere" or "watch for motorcycles". And then I see a motorcycle passing between two cars driving on the dotted line at 95 mph. Now I have no problem with motorcycles, I'm sure they're a lot of fun, but I'd have to believe that most motorcycle accidents are caused mostly by the motorcycle driver. I could be wrong.


Originally Posted by Ltlabner
I think that argument could be fairly made. Minivan drivers are typically older, people with children and female. On average those demographic groups drive more safely than the average driver. Put them all together with the generally larger and heavier frames of minivans and you get lower deaths per million drivers.

Conversely many drivers of compact and subcompact cars are younger drivers, both men and women. Younger drivers take more risks and generally are poorer drivers than say your average middle aged male with a family. Add younger drivers to lighter and smaller framed vechiles and you'll get higer deaths per million drivers.

Yes, is exactly what I was getting at. I was trying to think of how many times in the last year I heard or saw on the news of some high school kid driving his/her car off the road and wrecking. It's been quite a few, I can't even really put a number on it.

Rojo
08-29-2006, 02:12 PM
I guess we'll just have to agree to dissagree since right here in your list is proof that plenty of small cars are more dangerous than SUV's (Grand Am, Neon, Sunfire) while Civics and Corrolla's have just as many driver deaths as the worst of the SUV's. Yet you choose to ignore that. Once again your assertion that SUV's are horribly unsafe but small cars are generally safer is just plain wrong. And about wasting fuel, I noticed that you glossed over the pickup truck MPG. Those are actually as "spectacularlly inneffeicent" as SUV's. Should we "cut down" the number of those on the road also?

I guess your going to keep having the argument you want to have. I never said small cars were more dangerous to their drivers than SUV's. YOU made the assertion that buying an SUV is a safety decision. Obviously, as the list proves, it is not. Safety was always a convenient rationale for an irrational decision.

And, again, if you're going to compare SUV's to other guzzlers like full-sized luxury cars and trucks, have at it. I'm for fleet effeciency.

Obviously VW proves that a small car can be safe and fuel efficient with the Jetta. Why can't Detroit accept that notion? The big three have shipwrecked themselves on the 90's flood of cheap oil.

Rojo
08-29-2006, 02:21 PM
I think that argument could be fairly made. Minivan drivers are typically older, people with children and female. On average those demographic groups drive more safely than the average driver. Put them all together with the generally larger and heavier frames of minivans and you get lower deaths per million drivers.

Conversely many drivers of compact and subcompact cars are younger drivers, both men and women. Younger drivers take more risks and generally are poorer drivers than say your average middle aged male with a family. Add younger drivers to lighter and smaller framed vechiles and you'll get higer deaths per million drivers.

There's some truth to this but its mostly a case of engineering.

From Malcom Gladwell:

The Expedition was essentially the F-150 pickup truck with an extra set of doors and two more rows of seats—and the fact that it was a truck was critical. Cars have to meet stringent fuel-efficiency regulations. Trucks don't. The handling and suspension and braking of cars have to be built to the demanding standards of drivers and passengers. Trucks only have to handle like, well, trucks. Cars are built with what is called unit-body construction. To be light enough to meet fuel standards and safe enough to meet safety standards, they have expensive and elaborately engineered steel skeletons, with built-in crumple zones to absorb the impact of a crash. Making a truck is a lot more rudimentary. You build a rectangular steel frame. The engine gets bolted to the front. The seats get bolted to the middle. The body gets lowered over the top. The result is heavy and rigid and not particularly safe. But it's an awfully inexpensive way to build an automobile. Ford had planned to sell the Expedition for thirty-six thousand dollars, and its best estimate was that it could build one for twenty-four thousand—which, in the automotive industry, is a terrifically high profit margin. Sales, the company predicted, weren't going to be huge. After all, how many Americans could reasonably be expected to pay a twelve-thousand-dollar premium for what was essentially a dressed-up truck? But Ford executives decided that the Expedition would be a highly profitable niche product. They were half right. The "highly profitable" part turned out to be true. Yet, almost from the moment Ford's big new S.U.V.s rolled off the assembly line in Wayne, there was nothing "niche" about the Expedition.

Ltlabner
08-29-2006, 02:27 PM
I guess your going to keep having the argument you want to have. I never said small cars were more dangerous to their drivers than SUV's. YOU made the assertion that buying an SUV is a safety decision. Obviously, as the list proves, it is not. Safety was always a convenient rationale for an irrational decision.

And, again, if you're going to compare SUV's to other guzzlers like full-sized luxury cars and trucks, have at it. I'm for fleet effeciency.

Obviously VW proves that a small car can be safe and fuel efficient with the Jetta. Why can't Detroit accept that notion? The big three have shipwrecked themselves on the 90's flood of cheap oil.

I give up. You want to reduce the number of SUV's because of false claims that they are hideously unsafe and spectacullarly inneffecient. When shown clear evidence that other types of autos are actually more unsafe and that many vechiles are at least as ineffiecent as SUV's it seems to make no impact on you. You want the numbers reduced.....but really have no backup other than you personally don't care for them.

I never made the claim that SUV's were "a safety decison". In fact, I posted somewhere in this back-and-forth that after all the roll-over accidents that most people were fully aware that SUV's were unsafe in certian conditions. But I do refute your belife that SUV's are some sort of specialized killing machines with the facts presented above.

By the way, "Detroit" woln't make only small windup cars until consumers decide that's what they want to purchase. Since I highly doubt all Americans will agree on anything, let alone driving the same general type of auto, I don't see your "auto utopia" happening anytime soon.

But lets end this here. You obviously cling to your hatred of SUV's and I'm certinally not going to suddenly support forcing everybody into little wind-up cars.

Rojo
08-29-2006, 03:01 PM
I give up. You want to reduce the number of SUV's because of false claims that they are hideously unsafe and spectacullarly inneffecient. When shown clear evidence that other types of autos are actually more unsafe and that many vechiles are at least as ineffiecent as SUV's it seems to make no impact on you.

They're not as unsafe as Neons and they're not as ineffecient as Winnebagos. That's not something you'll see in the sales brochure.



By the way, "Detroit" woln't make only small windup cars until consumers decide that's what they want to purchase. Since I highly doubt all Americans will agree on anything, let alone driving the same general type of auto, I don't see your "auto utopia" happening anytime soon.

There's a 10-month waiting list for Toyota and Honda hybrids.

Reds4Life
08-29-2006, 04:58 PM
There's a 10-month waiting list for Toyota and Honda hybrids.

I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a hybrid right now. Why? There is ZERO reliability data for any of the technology that powers those vehicles. It might last 2 years or 25 years, we simply don't know. The systems on those cars are going to cost a fortune to repair and I know many non-dealer service departments refuse to work on them. There is also no aftermarket support for the vehicles, if Toyota or Honda doesn’t make it, or doesn’t have it in stock, sucks to be you.

Rojo
08-29-2006, 06:19 PM
I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a hybrid right now. Why? There is ZERO reliability data for any of the technology that powers those vehicles. It might last 2 years or 25 years, we simply don't know. The systems on those cars are going to cost a fortune to repair and I know many non-dealer service departments refuse to work on them. There is also no aftermarket support for the vehicles, if Toyota or Honda doesn’t make it, or doesn’t have it in stock, sucks to be you.

You still holding on to that buggy whip stock?

Ltlabner
08-29-2006, 06:24 PM
You still holding on to that buggy whip stock?

You still holding on to your Betamax machine?

dabvu2498
08-29-2006, 06:32 PM
You still holding on to your Betamax machine?
Was Betamax more efficient?

Ltlabner
08-29-2006, 06:37 PM
I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a hybrid right now. Why? There is ZERO reliability data for any of the technology that powers those vehicles. It might last 2 years or 25 years, we simply don't know. The systems on those cars are going to cost a fortune to repair and I know many non-dealer service departments refuse to work on them. There is also no aftermarket support for the vehicles, if Toyota or Honda doesn’t make it, or doesn’t have it in stock, sucks to be you.

Excellent point. Just as you want to shy away from the 1st model year of a car, or even after a major redesign. Give it time for all the bugs to shake out.

I think hybrids will be a good stop-gap between current autos and some alternate fuel autos somewhere down the road. They'll get the technology and reliablity down pretty good. But untill they do, the premium on the sticker price + any repair costs means your savings from better fuel economy will be used up pretty quickly.

Ltlabner
08-29-2006, 06:56 PM
Was Betamax more efficient?

Sure was! ........Till it became functionally obsolete when the market when the other way (VHS) and people were left holding the bag.

I'm not saying the market is going to leave hybrid technology in the dust, but I think it would be wise to give the technology time for teething problems to become fully known before you went "all in" on it.

I'd hold on to some of that buggy whip stock for just a while longer. :)

Rojo
08-29-2006, 07:20 PM
I'm not saying the market is going to leave hybrid technology in the dust, but I think it would be wise to give the technology time for teething problems to become fully known before you went "all in" on it.

Its not a bad idea. If I were in the market for a car, I'd consider it. If I weren't I don't know that I'd make any rash decisions. But hybrids are further along than most people think and other technologies are still a long ways away.

OldRightHander
08-29-2006, 08:01 PM
I will consider a hybrid when a few criteria are met.

1. Make one that looks like a normal car. Some of those first hybrids just screamed "Look at me. I'm different." I have heard about hybrid SUVs and larger vehicles being made now, but why can't we simply have hybrid versions of models that are already being made? If they can put the hybrid engine in a car that I like and make it so you won't be able to tell it's a hybrid without popping the hood, I will be happy.

2. Make the darn thing more affordable. Right now it doesn't seem that the extra cost will be offset by the increased fuel economy, at least not yet. Like any new technology, I figure that the price will come down gradually until the average consumer can afford one.

3. Make the cost of upkeep and repair on par with regular gas powered cars. If it's going to cost me more money to keep it on the road, I'm not interested now.

Basically, count me in as one of those people who is interested in the new technology but will hold out until it becomes more suited to my budget.

GAC
08-29-2006, 09:31 PM
I will consider a hybrid when a few criteria are met.

1. Make one that looks like a normal car.

I just bought a new Honda Odyssey Van because of the size/needs of the family. But I was looking very seriously into the Honda Accord hybrid. One sharp vehicle if you ask me.

http://us.tnpv.net/pv/2006/03/22/HON2006032239839_pv.jpg

Both Toyota and Honda hybrids come highly recommended. But the technology makes their price tag higher then average.

Reds4Life
08-29-2006, 09:39 PM
Base price on it is also $31k, with navigation it's almost $34k, considerably higher than 98% of the Accords made. I didn't pay much more than that for my Acura TL, no chance I'm paying that for an Accord.

Ltlabner
08-29-2006, 10:15 PM
Here's some interesting info....

Toyota Camry Hybrid: 2.4L, 4 cyl, 147HP, 16 valve. MSRP of $25,900 Doesn't look like they offer a 6 cylinder hybrid. It's a $1475 premium from the top of the line Camry to the Hybrid (didn't really look into the options so expect to pay more than $25,900). http://www.toyota.com/images/vehicles/2007/camry/specs.pdf

The Camry Hybrid gets a whopping 40mpg city and 38mpg highway. With that sort of mpg you could repay that $1475 premium pretty quickly.

Honda Accord Hybrid: V6, 253hp, 24 valve, MSRP of $30,999. The hybrid is a $3,599 premium over the top of the line standard Accord. Doesn't look like they offer a 4 cyl hybrid for the Accord line. Estimated mpg = 25/34

With that sort of MPG, I really don't see what the advantage of the hybrid is here. Especially with the $3,500 premium. Unless I am missing something, it doesn't look like it would ever pay for itself. But you'd be trendy, that's for sure. It is, however, a really nice looking auto.
http://automobiles.honda.com/images/banners/2006/accord_hybrid/accord_hybrid_factsheet.pdf

By way of comparison, my 2005 Volvo V50 T5 with 214hp and a 5 cylinder has averaged 30.3 MPG over the past 4 months and 8,000 or so miles. That's highway and city driving. And I picked it up used for $17k.

Rojo
08-29-2006, 10:47 PM
You also get a nice fat tax credit for buying one. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_hybrid_new.shtml

Ltlabner
08-29-2006, 10:52 PM
You also get a nice fat tax credit for buying one. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_hybrid_new.shtml


I'd hardly call the $1,300 tax credit on the Accord, for which you have to pay the $3,500 premium on the hybrid "nice fat" anything. Add to that the non-existant MPG savings from the hybrid and I wonder what the point of the Accord hybrid is.

In all fairness to Honda, I didn't look at the Civic hybrid, It's too late now but I'll look into it tomorrow.

The $2,600 on the Camry Hybrid is much better, especially since the premium on the hybrid is only $1,475.

The tax credits on the GMC vechiles are completey useless. Who wants to wait up to a year to get $600 bucks off your gross adjusted income? Whoopie.

ChiTownRedsFan
08-29-2006, 11:00 PM
The tax credits on the GMC vechiles are completey useless. Who wants to wait up to a year to get $600 bucks off your gross adjusted income? Whoopie.

Quick note from your local friendly CPA...tax credits are applied to your bottom-line tax bill, not your adjusted gross income (AGI). That said, I'd still prefer $2,600 over $600, too. :beerme:

Ltlabner
08-29-2006, 11:03 PM
Quick note from your local friendly CPA...tax credits are applied to your bottom-line tax bill, not your adjusted gross income (AGI). That said, I'd still prefer $2,600 over $600, too. :beerme:

Hey! Thanks for that info. I stand corrected. That does change things a fair amount.

Ltlabner
08-30-2006, 08:25 PM
Here's some more info on hybrids from Toyota & Honda. This is a comparison of the smaller vechile offerings (see the comparison of the sedan offerings of Camry & Accord above).

Toyota Prius: Basically a hatchback offering with 16v 4 cyclinder engine with 76hp engine + 67hp electric motor for a grand total of 110hp. Not exactly a car to load up with 4 moderatley sized guys OR to take hill-climbing in WVA. It does offer a $21,725 MSRP.

Estimated EPA is an impressive 60city/55 highway. Baring major repairs the savings in this vechile could be very nice. A $1,500 reduction to your tax bill doesn't hurt either, but these tax credits phase out over time so you can't be guarenteed of getting this forever. http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html

Honda Civic: 4 cylinder, 8 valve engine with hybrid technology that offers 110horse power. It's a 4 door sedan that offers very simular inenterrior room to the Toyota Prius (suprising because from the outside the Prius looks very small).

It offers a $22,150MSRP before all the goodies. It does, however, have a continuously variable transmission which could be a problem IMO. GAC, is this the same tranny used in the Ford Fusion? If so, I'd call that a black mark on the Civic.

That said, the Civic provides 49mpg city and 51mpg highway. Information on tax credits isn't available as yet. http://automobiles.honda.com/images/banners/2006/civic_hybrid/civic_hybrid_factsheet.pdf


Unlike the larger sedan offerings, the Prius and Civic seem to be much more comperable in terms of price, size and power. The Prius has 11 more city MPG so if you are in an urban area, that difference could be important. I'd be warry of the CVT transmission on the Civic also, but that is my personal opinion based on one crappy rental car.

Hope this is helpfull or remotely usefull.

Reds4Life
08-30-2006, 08:30 PM
The Prius models haven't been getting anywhere near 60/55 mpg ratings in the real world, most get under 50 highway. There has been several articles on it. Also, dealers are charging over sticker price for them, some as much as $5k.

Ltlabner
08-30-2006, 08:37 PM
The Prius models haven't been getting anywhere near 60/55 mpg ratings in the real world, most get under 50 highway. There has been several articles on it. Also, dealers are charging over sticker price for them, some as much as $5k.

I've wondered if those very high EPA estimates were realistic in the least. I guess I'm just cynical but something told me they were not.

Oh yea, MSRP and what you pay for the vechcile are rarely even remotely close to the same number.

Looks like both mfgrs offer pretty good warrenties and make a point to say that the "hybrid" part of the hybrid engines is heavily warrentied. This is prob more of a PR ploy to convince people there will not be problems with the reliablity (simular to Huynda offering 100,000mile warrenties to help offset their horrific quality perception).

I'd still be very wary of this technology untill it gets a few years down the road. Lets see how it holds up once the first model years start getting out of warrenty.

Reds4Life
08-30-2006, 08:44 PM
I've wondered if those very high EPA estimates were realistic in the least. I guess I'm just cynical but something told me they were not.

Oh yea, MSRP and what you pay for the vechcile are rarely even remotely close to the same number.

Looks like both mfgrs offer pretty good warrenties and make a point to say that the "hybrid" part of the hybrid engines is heavily warrentied. This is prob more of a PR ploy to convince people there will not be problems with the reliablity (simular to Huynda offering 100,000mile warrenties to help offset their horrific quality perception).

I'd still be very wary of this technology untill it gets a few years down the road. Lets see how it holds up once the first model years start getting out of warrenty.

They do have a warranty, but there is another problem with it. You have to take it to a dealer service department only, most non-dealers refuse to work on them. Even then, many techs at the dealer aren't trained to work on hybrids. Some of the diagnostic tools for hybrids are a freakin fortune, a scan tool for the Toyota system costs over $9,500 alone. Many dealers haven't invested in those tools yet. So, just because you take it to a Honda or Toyota dealer doesn't mean they can fix it, you might end up having to travel to a dealer that is set up to work on the thing.

If that wasn't enough, there isn't much in the way of parts supply for these cars either, almost everything has to be ordered for it. A friend of mine has a Prius, one of her engine management modules died and the dealer had to order it from Toyota, took 2 weeks to get it.

I'm with you, I'm not convinced, I'll wait and see how these cars hold up over the long term.

max venable
08-30-2006, 10:25 PM
Thanks to George W. Bush, gas prices keep falling...down to $2.42 here in NE Ohio. :thumbup:

RBA
09-01-2006, 04:17 PM
Must be an election coming up....

$2.309 in Columbus, OH

http://www.speedway.com/GasPriceSearch.asp?SearchValue=Columbus%2C+OH#

Funny, how we are celebrating $2.309 gas. The oil companies know how to work us over.

westofyou
09-01-2006, 04:25 PM
Must be an election coming up....

$2.309 in Columbus, OH

http://www.speedway.com/GasPriceSearch.asp?SearchValue=Columbus%2C+OH#

Funny, how we are celebrating $2.309 gas. The oil companies know how to work us over.

What's even funnier is giving W. props for it. :laugh:

max venable
09-01-2006, 04:35 PM
What's even funnier is giving W. props for it. :laugh:

It was tongue-in-cheek, believe me...I just had to do it because so many people were blaming him for the prices going up, but when they come down, of course he gets no credit for that. I find it amusing.

westofyou
09-01-2006, 04:42 PM
It was tongue-in-cheek, believe me...I just had to do it because so many people were blaming him for the prices going up, but when they come down, of course he gets no credit for that. I find it amusing.
Personally I find it to be a giant shell game.... My big problem now is I have to start thinking about heating oil for the winter, heating oil is currently around $2.59 and Bio Diesel perhaps more... and I'll need about 400 gallons.

LoganBuck
09-02-2006, 03:11 PM
Personally I find it to be a giant shell game.... My big problem now is I have to start thinking about heating oil for the winter, heating oil is currently around $2.59 and Bio Diesel perhaps more... and I'll need about 400 gallons.

Put in a cornburner! The price of corn is dropping dramatically. One bushel (~$2.20) will heat your home for a day. You won't beat that for winter heating cost. Truely renewable fuel.

JaxRed
09-03-2006, 08:00 PM
Have a 2006 Prius I got back in March. Lifetime mileage is 50.8. Love the vehicle to death. Has some cool factors, such as never needing to use your keys. And a $3,150 tax credit to boot.

And paid MSRP with no dealer fees and only 2 week wait.

And Prius has been on the road since 1997, it's hardly an untested technology.

dman
09-06-2006, 09:01 AM
Personally I find it to be a giant shell game.... My big problem now is I have to start thinking about heating oil for the winter, heating oil is currently around $2.59 and Bio Diesel perhaps more... and I'll need about 400 gallons.

WOY, I have a 550 Gal. fuel oil tank. Sometimes I wonder if financing is an option when it comes to filling that beast up. A heat pump has been suggested to me numerous times, but I have a 2800 sq.ft. house and the cost of electric over the long run would likely be far greater than the fuel oil cost. A woodburning stove is a likely choice for me.

dman
09-06-2006, 09:03 AM
Put in a cornburner! The price of corn is dropping dramatically. One bushel (~$2.20) will heat your home for a day. You won't beat that for winter heating cost. Truely renewable fuel.

I would love to have a cornburner, but after the big ice storm during Christmas 2004, we lost power for 4 days, at which time the temperatures also dropped down drastically. Where as cornburners rely on a blower, you are still getting the convective heat coming off of a woodburner to give off plenty of heat.

Ltlabner
09-06-2006, 09:30 AM
WOY, I have a 550 Gal. fuel oil tank. Sometimes I wonder if financing is an option when it comes to filling that beast up. A heat pump has been suggested to me numerous times, but I have a 2800 sq.ft. house and the cost of electric over the long run would likely be far greater than the fuel oil cost. A woodburning stove is a likely choice for me.


dman, we have a 2,100sqft home with a heatpump and electric backup. I've not done any formal comparisons but the energy costs in this home have been pretty reasonable. Our worst bill was February and was $174 but we keep the house pretty warm durring the winter (I prefer to be comfortable in my own home and am willing to pay for it). Off the top of my head, our normal bill runs $115 to $140 year round with the exception of very hot or cold months.

But I think it will come down to how cold of winter we have. If it's mild like this past winter I think the heatpump/electric backup is hard to beat in the long-haul. But if it's consistantly below 20-30F forget heatpump/electric as your power meter will be spinning faster than you can see!

westofyou
09-06-2006, 11:54 AM
WOY, I have a 550 Gal. fuel oil tank. Sometimes I wonder if financing is an option when it comes to filling that beast up. A heat pump has been suggested to me numerous times, but I have a 2800 sq.ft. house and the cost of electric over the long run would likely be far greater than the fuel oil cost. A woodburning stove is a likely choice for me.

The winters here are not as bad as back east, maybe freezing a couple times and maybe snow once or twice. My house is 105 years old, nice thick plaster walls, but the furnance is the original Furnance King coal burner which has been converted to oil. The mast bedroom is a rehabbed attic about 850 sq feet, that is heated only at night with electric heaters, the main house save the basement uses the furnance... so often I piece meal the oil in 200 gallon fills, all the time hoping that the price stays steady and it doesn't get too cold and drain the oil too fast.

I'm not ready to switch to electric (our electric is a lot thanks to Enron and the fact we sell most of it to California) and I don't really care to go with anything that's equally odd as my oil tank (which is outside and under my driveway)

Of course fall's coming and I have freaking think of it more and more now.... I got about another month before I have to turn it on.

dman
09-06-2006, 10:52 PM
The winters here are not as bad as back east, maybe freezing a couple times and maybe snow once or twice. My house is 105 years old, nice thick plaster walls, but the furnance is the original Furnance King coal burner which has been converted to oil. The mast bedroom is a rehabbed attic about 850 sq feet, that is heated only at night with electric heaters, the main house save the basement uses the furnance... so often I piece meal the oil in 200 gallon fills, all the time hoping that the price stays steady and it doesn't get too cold and drain the oil too fast.

I'm not ready to switch to electric (our electric is a lot thanks to Enron and the fact we sell most of it to California) and I don't really care to go with anything that's equally odd as my oil tank (which is outside and under my driveway)

Of course fall's coming and I have freaking think of it more and more now.... I got about another month before I have to turn it on.


I got mine filled up today. Marble Cliff Oil in Columbus had #2 fuel oil for $2.44 p/gal, so I figured I had better fill up at that price.

KittyDuran
09-08-2006, 12:55 PM
It is now $2.15 IIRC in Mason and $2.23 in Fairfield today...

BRM
09-08-2006, 12:57 PM
I can't believe how much it is dropping back there. It's still around $2.80-$2.85 here.

dabvu2498
09-08-2006, 01:21 PM
I can't believe how much it is dropping back there. It's still around $2.80-$2.85 here.

Is Colorado in the midst of a gubernatorial election???

NYMoose
09-08-2006, 01:30 PM
I can't believe how much it is dropping back there. It's still around $2.80-$2.85 here.

Paid 2.99 in upstate NY last night. Meanwhile we are all hoping for a warm winter with fuel oil at 2.60 or so.

westofyou
09-08-2006, 01:33 PM
Meanwhile we are all hoping for a warm winter with fuel oil at 2.60 or so.Having spent some of a winter in Lake Placid I wish you luck on your wish.

BRM
09-08-2006, 02:18 PM
Paid 2.99 in upstate NY last night. Meanwhile we are all hoping for a warm winter with fuel oil at 2.60 or so.

I just pre-paid for our winter propane at $1.50 per gallon.

dabvu2498
09-08-2006, 02:29 PM
I just pre-paid for our winter propane at $1.50 per gallon.

Does Mr. Strickland have a branch in your part of the country?

BRM
09-08-2006, 02:34 PM
Does Mr. Strickland have a branch in your part of the country?

:laugh:

dabvu2498
09-08-2006, 03:02 PM
:laugh:

If they don't, Thatherton fuels will deliver, I'm sure. "That dang Thatherton."

NYMoose
09-08-2006, 04:43 PM
I just pre-paid for our winter propane at $1.50 per gallon.

That is a real good price. Most places around here do not have pre-pay anymore because of the price fluctuations. Much of our fuel oil and kerosene comes out of Canada, so at least we usually do not have to worry about supply.

Ltlabner
09-08-2006, 04:52 PM
I paid $2.54 for Premium at the UDF on the Milford Parkway this morning.

westofyou
09-08-2006, 04:54 PM
Milford Parkway

Blasphemy.. a parkway in Milford... the horror...

Ltlabner
09-08-2006, 04:59 PM
Blasphemy.. a parkway in Milford... the horror...

Uhhhhh...ok

westofyou
09-08-2006, 05:01 PM
Uhhhhh...ok

That's my country road driving place, I know of what you are speaking... but Milford will always be where you go to get away from Parkways and the like.

Ltlabner
09-08-2006, 05:05 PM
That's my country road driving place, I know of what you are speaking... but Milford will always be where you go to get away from Parkways and the like.

I'm with you now.

Milford is still that "country road driving" place. Lots of twisty turny and nicely wooded roads. SR-28 at the highway is to be avoided however since that's there the Lowes, Home Depot, Meiers, etc have been crammed into.

I did come down the hill a few months agao to the "bottoms" area where they are building a super Wal-Mart and for the first time in my life I thought to myself, "do we really need another big store in town". There's plenty of them within 20 minutes drive. I'm all about free-market and capitalisim but when you end up with a Starbucks at every stoplight it does get to be a bit much.

BRM
09-11-2006, 10:39 AM
$2.85 is still as cheap as it gets around here, $3.15 for diesel.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 12:50 PM
Funny how when gas goes back down there is no furor and outcry anymore.

Maybe those mean oil companies got tired of making all that money? ;)

Anyway, I think I've been paying around $2.40 for premium reciently at various places in the tri-state area. I have a reciept for $2.37/gal for premium back on 10.1 at the UDF on Milford parkway.

Heath
10-11-2006, 11:21 PM
1.94 at the Miller Lane Sam's Club - Exit 59 at I-75 in Dayton.

Your welcome.

max venable
10-11-2006, 11:50 PM
It's back up to $2.25 here in NE Ohio. :bang:

dabvu2498
10-12-2006, 09:22 AM
$1.98 the last couple days at the new Speedway on Rt. 4 just north of Walden Ponds in Butler Co.

RFS62
10-12-2006, 09:36 AM
$2.35 in Ft. Lauderdale

RBA
10-12-2006, 10:34 AM
I'm planning on filling up my two cars Election Day morning. ;)

Caveat Emperor
10-12-2006, 11:15 PM
Funny how when gas goes back down there is no furor and outcry anymore.

Maybe those mean oil companies got tired of making all that money? ;)


Funny how our thinking has now sufficiently adjusted to the point where we think $2.10 means gas is "back down" -- I seem to recall filling up for under $1.00 as recently as 3 and a half years ago in Georgia (where, admittedly, their state gas tax is next to nothing).

OldRightHander
10-14-2006, 12:22 PM
Funny how our thinking has now sufficiently adjusted to the point where we think $2.10 means gas is "back down" -- I seem to recall filling up for under $1.00 as recently as 3 and a half years ago in Georgia (where, admittedly, their state gas tax is next to nothing).

That's all part of conditioning the consumer to accept a certain price. I did a little looking around online and found out that the last time oil was at the per barrell price it is right now, the pump price for gas was 40-50 cents less than it is now. $2.00 has become what $1.00 used to be. It's the new benchmark for acceptable prices. Anything under that is one heck of a bargain and too much over that is a ripoff.

NoCalRed
10-18-2006, 03:59 AM
http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061015/NEWS/610150322&SearchID=73260185928566

Thought some of you might find this story a little humorous. Bad luck for me, I sometimes get gas at this station, but this day I didn't need any.

Ltlabner
10-18-2006, 09:17 AM
Just paid $2.139 for premium in Westerville (Columbus), Ohio.

RBA
11-09-2006, 11:32 AM
I'm planning on filling up my two cars Election Day morning. ;)

Well I didn't. It was suppose to be a joke. I filled up this morning and the gas prices are up 8 cents a gallon overnight. :bang: :laugh: :evil:

Falls City Beer
11-09-2006, 11:33 AM
Well I didn't. It was suppose to be a joke. I filled up this morning and the gas prices are up 8 cents a gallon overnight. :bang: :laugh: :evil:

Yeppers. Same in my city. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

(Good thing politicians have no control over gas prices.)

NJReds
11-09-2006, 02:20 PM
It actually dropped here in NJ. $1.99 on election day; $1.97 on Wednesday.

savafan
11-09-2006, 04:47 PM
It was $2.34 a gallon in Xenia on Tuesday and $2.17 yesterday.

BRM
11-09-2006, 05:01 PM
Prices haven't changed in over a week here. Heck, diesel hasn't changed in almost a month.

Ltlabner
11-09-2006, 05:02 PM
(Good thing politicians have no control over gas prices.)

Yea...they just call up every local station and tell them the price for the day :rolleyes:

Joseph
11-09-2006, 05:08 PM
2.29 down here in Bowling Green.

Ltlabner
01-24-2007, 08:09 PM
Just paid $2.06 for premium in Indianapolis.

Sean_CaseyRules
01-24-2007, 08:18 PM
Paid $1.74 in Springfield last weekend! Its still $1.89 in Mechanicsburg!

GIK
01-24-2007, 08:47 PM
$1.85 for mid-grade (89) in suburban Detroit.

dman
01-24-2007, 10:40 PM
$1.98 yesterday at Interstate 71 and State Route 665 (Exit 97), $2.19 today. Looks like the honeymoon is over again. I guess the oil barons got their Chistmas bills recently.

max venable
01-25-2007, 10:46 PM
Here in NE Ohio the prices are fluctuating like crazy. $1.89 one day, $2.19 two days later. The Speedway station here in town changed the price at least three times in one day last week. Currently it's at $2.15 up here. Is it the same in SW Ohio--I mean the constant change?

guttle11
01-26-2007, 01:11 AM
Here in NE Ohio the prices are fluctuating like crazy. $1.89 one day, $2.19 two days later. The Speedway station here in town changed the price at least three times in one day last week. Currently it's at $2.15 up here. Is it the same in SW Ohio--I mean the constant change?

Pretty much.

HotCorner
01-26-2007, 11:01 AM
I don't understand for the price jumps. The price of oil is dropping on a daily basis yet the price of gas can increase by $ 0.20 in day?!?! We need better price regulation for gas.

Razor Shines
01-26-2007, 01:13 PM
I don't understand for the price jumps. The price of oil is dropping on a daily basis yet the price of gas can increase by $ 0.20 in day?!?! We need better price regulation for gas.

Actually I think it's gone up in the last few days. Last week it was down around $52 a barrell and now it's up over $55. If the gas station paid $52 and the barrell price suddenly goes up to $55 they have to increase the price at the pump so they can re-fill their tanks at $55.

Red Leader
01-26-2007, 01:33 PM
I filled up at $1.82 / gallon two days ago. Saw prices at $2.19 / gallon yesterday. So yes, max, prices are about the same, and same fluctuation here in Southern Ohio, at least in my suburb of Dayton.

savafan
01-26-2007, 01:34 PM
I filled up at $1.82 / gallon two days ago. Saw prices at $2.19 / gallon yesterday. So yes, max, prices are about the same, and same fluctuation here in Southern Ohio, at least in my suburb of Dayton.

Prices in my area of Dayton were at $2.19/gallon yesterday, then back down to $2.10 or $2.09/gallon last night (early morning)

pedro
01-26-2007, 01:38 PM
we're still paying around 2.60 out here in oregon.

Chip R
01-26-2007, 01:58 PM
we're still paying around 2.60 out here in oregon.


Good Lord! Do they tax the crap out of it up there or what?

pedro
01-26-2007, 02:00 PM
Good Lord! Do they tax the crap out of it up there or what?

yep. then again, I only put about 4,000 miles a year on my car so it's not a big deal for me.

max venable
05-03-2007, 05:05 PM
Up to $3.19 today here in NE Ohio. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

BuckeyeRed27
05-03-2007, 05:14 PM
Up to $3.19 today here in NE Ohio. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

That's all?

I'm paying $3.79 in Santa Monica

Ltlabner
05-03-2007, 05:19 PM
Don't even pay real attention to prices. I have to drive to see my customers, I have no choice in the matter. I fill up and off I go without wringing my hands. I know it's over $3 for premium, but couldn't tell you how much.


Wonder what the price per gallon of a Starbucks Latte is these days?

westofyou
05-03-2007, 05:20 PM
That's all?

I'm paying $3.79 in Santa Monica

$3.29 here in the PNW

TeamCasey
05-03-2007, 05:23 PM
I was just talking to someone today. I'm not going anywhere unnecessary that isn't on the way to or from work. I'm not cancelling vacation, but I'm not taking goofy trips.

dabvu2498
05-03-2007, 05:26 PM
$2.99 across the street

I'll stop complaining now.

RANDY IN INDY
05-03-2007, 05:29 PM
More record profits for 2007.

minus5
05-03-2007, 06:05 PM
Wonder what the price per gallon of a Starbucks Latte is these days?

Couldn't tell ya but then again I don't buy it by the gallon yet alone have to buy 15-20 gallons of it at a time.;)

GIK
05-03-2007, 06:07 PM
The Mustang is getting 93 octane today...it's around $3.50 here. Ouch! Gas doesn't really bug me too much, though, as my commute is about 2 miles. :D

dman
05-03-2007, 07:33 PM
The Mustang is getting 93 octane today...it's around $3.50 here. Ouch! Gas doesn't really bug me too much, though, as my commute is about 2 miles. :D

The price of the gas bothers me, but not nearly as much as the principals behind the whole reasons for the increases.

Supply/Demand and capitalism are all great things, but there are extremes that things can be taken to.

redsfan1966
05-03-2007, 07:59 PM
gas now at $3.19 a gallon on the way home tonite (5/3)---this is an outrage!!!! Unfortunately I am one who will let gas prices dictate what I do....I nixed a trip to PNC last Saturday because of the spike to $3 and if this latest spike continues...I am going to nix my plans to go to GABP next Thursday...I have so much I would love to vent about our current administration and the spike in gas prices, but realize this isnt the forum....

Ltlabner
05-03-2007, 08:13 PM
gas now at $3.19 a gallon on the way home tonite (5/3)---this is an outrage!!!! Unfortunately I am one who will let gas prices dictate what I do....I nixed a trip to PNC last Saturday because of the spike to $3 and if this latest spike continues...I am going to nix my plans to go to GABP next Thursday...I have so much I would love to vent about our current administration and the spike in gas prices, but realize this isnt the forum....

I don't want to get into a peeing match, but I scratch my head at these sorts of decisions.

Here's why. Let's say it's 600 miles from Cincy to Pittsburg and back and your tank holds 20 gallons. At an average of 20mpg that's 400miles per tank or at least 2 tanks to get there and back.

40 gallons of gas at $2.50/gallon = $100 . 40 gallons of gas at $3.50 = $140. That's a total difference of a whopping $40. And that's assuming a full $1/gal price increase, a 20 gallon tank and a measly 20mpg on the highway. Oh yea, that's over the course of 600 miles of driving.

Why on earth would you cancel a trip over $40? Surely to the lord you could squeeze $40 out of a trip by spending more wisely in other areas? (and again, I think the $40 difference is exagerated).

Also, why would you cancel a trip to GABP (assuming you live local) when the price difference will add up to maybe a dollar or two?

Again, everybody's situations are different, I understand that. But if $40 is the deciding point between go/no go for a very long trip, perhaps you don't have the finances to make the trip in the first place? (Again, speeking generally, not directed specifically against you).

I know this is an unpopular stance to take. I know increased cost of gas effects people's pocket books and can sympathize, but I think the concern, in some cases, is more hystaria than reason.

Yachtzee
05-03-2007, 08:43 PM
It's all relative. Back when we were still paying $1 a gallon, they were paying $1 a liter in Europe (1 gallon = about 3.79 liters). I would hope this would encourage projects like regional light rail and long distance high-speed rail projects, but somehow I'm skeptical that much will change.

MaineRed
05-03-2007, 10:50 PM
Ltlabner I agree. I live in a pretty big vacation area and I always laugh when people say folks won't be traveling due to the high cost of gas. As you say, a dollar increase and you have to drive halfway across the country before you'll spend an extra $100. If people can't afford to spend an extra few bucks on gas why did they even contemplate a vacation in the first place?

I honestly don't get it. You never hear how anyone is going to have to consider their breakfast routine due to the increasing cost of milk. The price of everything goes up all the time but all anyone wants to talk about is gas.

It cost me about $50 a week to keep the birds in my backyard fed. Where is the outrage?

hebroncougar
05-03-2007, 10:59 PM
The price of the gas bothers me, but not nearly as much as the principals behind the whole reasons for the increases.

Supply/Demand and capitalism are all great things, but there are extremes that things can be taken to.

Not only that, but the fact they oil companies do nothing with the profit but put it in their pocket. No increasing refinery capacities, or improving facilities, that would make too much sense for everyone. :rolleyes:

redsfan1966
05-03-2007, 11:19 PM
slippery slope my friends, slippery slope....if you keep paying...theyll keep jacking it up....not only is it the high cost, but also I feel that if you stay away-it may make a difference in some sort of protest...just my thought...thanks...

Yachtzee
05-04-2007, 12:01 AM
Not only that, but the fact they oil companies do nothing with the profit but put it in their pocket. No increasing refinery capacities, or improving facilities, that would make too much sense for everyone. :rolleyes:

FWIW, the high oil prices do spur activity in exploration and research in technology. I'm no expert, but I've heard oil cos. are working hard right now to figure out a way to make oil extraction from the Alberta Oil Sands profitable. If so, I've heard it would dwarf production in the Middle East, but again this is second hand information from someone only marginally connected to the industry. I've also heard there is an issue with refining capacity, but the problems are that a drop in demand would result in refineries sitting idle. Another issue, and probably the big one in the US, is the NIMBY factor. No one wants to live anywhere near a new refinery.

The question is, with all the concerns about greenhouse gases and global warming, does one necessarily want more refining capacity? Don't high prices encourage conservation and research into alternative energy sources?

savafan
05-04-2007, 12:48 AM
The gas prices at the station across the street from me actually rose three times today. It started out this morning at $2.89, it went up to $2.99 at around noon, and then when I left for work at 2:15 it was at $3.09. When I came home from work it was up to $3.19. There's no reason for the price of gas to go up three times in one day.

LoganBuck
05-04-2007, 12:54 AM
I talked with my fuel supplier today while he was dropping off 1000 gallons of diesel. (And you guys think you have it bad) His suppliers are warning him to let his customers know that gasoline WILL hit $4 this summer, farm diesel will hit at least $3.20.

savafan
05-04-2007, 01:11 AM
So gas prices are subject to predestination...that's comforting to know.

Caveat Emperor
05-04-2007, 01:33 AM
I honestly don't get it. You never hear how anyone is going to have to consider their breakfast routine due to the increasing cost of milk. The price of everything goes up all the time but all anyone wants to talk about is gas.

Because, for everyone that doesn't live within walking distance of their job, gas is the one true requirement for life as we live it today. Without gas, I don't even make it to the store to find out how expensive a gallon of milk is. Without gas, I don't make it to work to have the money to buy the gallon of milk.

I'm actually not all that upset by the gas prices. We, as a nation, are getting exactly what we deserve. We've known there is a serious problem with our oil dependency for ages and we outright ignored a smack in the face from reality back in the '70s during the embargo. We're no closer to an alternative- fuel or renewable fuel economy than we were then, public transportation is still a disaster virtually everywhere outside the coasts, and suburban sprawl has made commutes even longer.

In short -- we begged for this problem for nearly 30 years. Welcome to the new reality: Gas at $4+ a gallon and no end in sight (unless you know of some secret hydrogen fuel-cell car ready to roll in Detroit that I've yet to read about).

sonny
05-04-2007, 04:34 AM
You think you got it bad? Ive got this Delorean that runs on plutonium. You won't BELIEVE the price for that stuff! :)

savafan
05-04-2007, 05:11 AM
You think you got it bad? Ive got this Delorean that runs on plutonium. You won't BELIEVE the price for that stuff! :)

I'm sure you could just travel to a time when it was cheaper. ;)

dman
05-04-2007, 08:56 AM
Can we call on Tony Soprano to help us "take care" of the problem? :evil:
The problem being the greedy oil moguls who know how to manipulate the prices and create shortages that don't exist.

Yachtzee
05-04-2007, 11:12 AM
You think you got it bad? Ive got this Delorean that runs on plutonium. You won't BELIEVE the price for that stuff! :)

If only Doc Brown would get around to developing that hybrid flux capacitor that runs on a mix of plutonium and household garbage.

paintmered
05-04-2007, 11:23 AM
If only Doc Brown would get around to developing that hybrid flux capacitor that runs on a mix of plutonium and household garbage.

http://www.feagz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bttf/fuscr.jpg

Time travel: powered by MGD.

BRM
05-04-2007, 11:28 AM
http://www.feagz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bttf/fuscr.jpg

Time travel: powered by MGD.

Looks more like a High Life.

Roy Tucker
05-04-2007, 11:34 AM
Actually, the problem is that the US *isn't* changing its driving habits and our usage increase rate continues to sky-rocket.

Yachtzee
05-04-2007, 11:35 AM
Looks more like a High Life.

Give me a six of High Life and I can convert it into energy. Unfortunately, it would also be accompanied by an increase in greenhouse gas emissions.

BRM
05-04-2007, 11:35 AM
Give me a six of High Life and I can convert it into energy. Unfortunately, it would also be accompanied by an increase in greenhouse gas emissions.

:laugh:

Yachtzee
05-04-2007, 11:45 AM
Actually, the problem is that the US *isn't* changing its driving habits and our usage increase rate continues to sky-rocket.

Last night I saw a news report about gas prices and they interviewed folks at the gas station complaining about the gas prices. My favorite was the girl who said she had to pay even more to get the premium gas because her car was "supercharged," and it was really tightening her budget. Poor girl. :rolleyes:

The good thing is that a lot of cars are coming with systems that monitor fuel consumption to let you know what kind of mileage you're getting based on your driving. Maybe folks will start to change after they have a constant reminder of the poor fuel economy they get.

The people I feel for are those for whom fuel costs represent a significant expense in their business. I can only imagine how these prices are affecting independent truckers.

RANDY IN INDY
05-04-2007, 11:50 AM
Heck, let's just use it all up so they have to make something else work.:beerme:

paintmered
05-04-2007, 12:04 PM
The good thing is that a lot of cars are coming with systems that monitor fuel consumption to let you know what kind of mileage you're getting based on your driving. Maybe folks will start to change after they have a constant reminder of the poor fuel economy they get.


My car tells me what kind of mileage I get. Having driven it for over three years now I can tell you which driving patterns produce the best mileage. Accelerate slowly, brake a little as possible and use the cruise control as much as you can. It adds up to about a 20% increase in efficiency.

Of course, that 20% gets you back to what you should normally get, but people drive more aggressively than the EPA mileage estimates assume.

minus5
05-04-2007, 03:59 PM
At least there is some good news out of all this: The price spikes were good news for most major oil companies in the first quarter. Exxon Mobil and Chevron saw profits surge to $9.3 billion and $4.7 billion, respectively, while profits for Royal Dutch Shell soared 5.7 percent to $7.28 billion. :bang:

KronoRed
05-04-2007, 04:29 PM
The good thing is that a lot of cars are coming with systems that monitor fuel consumption to let you know what kind of mileage you're getting based on your driving. Maybe folks will start to change after they have a constant reminder of the poor fuel economy they get.


The last car I rented had that feature, it was awesome, 70 miles into the 380 mile trip I figured out what NOT to do if I wanted to save gas.

I think every car should have a big flashing hit you over the head sign telling you how much gas you're using, maybe a pop up every gallon saying "was that worth 3.29?"

Yachtzee
05-04-2007, 04:36 PM
The last car I rented had that feature, it was awesome, 70 miles into the 380 mile trip I figured out what NOT to do if I wanted to save gas.

I think every car should have a big flashing hit you over the head sign telling you how much gas you're using, maybe a pop up every gallon saying "was that worth 3.29?"

My wife views it as a challenge to keep that number as high as possible.

Ltlabner
05-04-2007, 04:59 PM
My wife views it as a challenge to keep that number as high as possible.

I've used millage tracking software on a pocket pc for a while (which computes mpg) and my last 2 cars have had it.

I too am obssessed with keeping the MPG as high as possible and hate when I get trapped into a bunch of city driving because I know it will kill the number.

Wish I could say it was because I am a super citizen on the lookout for what is best for mother earth. I'm just werid and it's become a game.

Yachtzee
05-04-2007, 05:06 PM
I've used millage tracking software on a pocket pc for a while (which computes mpg) and my last 2 cars have had it.

I too am obssessed with keeping the MPG as high as possible and hate when I get trapped into a bunch of city driving because I know it will kill the number.

Wish I could say it was because I am a super citizen on the lookout for what is best for mother earth. I'm just werid and it's become a game.

Hey whatever your motivation, if good comes out of it, all the better.

OldRightHander
05-05-2007, 04:00 PM
In general, smoother driving is better for your fuel economy. If I do a lot of city driving and have to accelerate fast, which you have to do sometimes just to merge and what not, I only get around 10 mpg, but if I have a good long interstate trip I sometimes get 12 or more. I got nearly 15 on a trip to Chicago and back the other day.

Anyway, just ask anyone in transportation what the fuel prices are doing to the profit margin for owner operators. I have a 32 gallon tank and right now it's costing over $90 to fill it. I go through a tank a day, sometimes more. I have to leave tomorrow evening to deliver a load in North Carolina on Monday morning and I already figured on spending about $200 just to go down there and back. That's a good chunk out of my pay for the run. A difference of $1 a gallon can be huge when you're going through 30-40 gallons a day. The price hike doesn't affect my wife as much because she only commutes 8 miles to work, but I'm really feeling the pinch when I end up spending an extra $150-200 a week on fuel. Ouch.

GIK
05-05-2007, 06:38 PM
Every time I go WOT in my Mustang, I smile. I could care less about gas for the enjoyment it gives me. Now, that car is not my daily or my wife's daily, and if it was I'd be singing a different tune. Both of our other vehicles get 17-18 mpg, which is reasonable, but obviously not excellent. As I said earlier, my commute is short, but my wife drives ~40 miles/day. She fills up every 7-8 days at $50/fill.

Gas is expensive, but we're still getting off easy compared to other countries. Windsor, Ontario (Canada) is, after exchange, ~$3.75/gal.

BRM
05-07-2007, 10:53 AM
My truck has one of those trackers but it must be broke. It always sits on 14.8 mpg and never moves. I"ve never gotten under 16 mpg (unless I'm pulling a trailer) when I calculate it myself.

OldRightHander
05-07-2007, 06:42 PM
I just got back from my run to North Carolina about an hour ago. It was 440 miles down there. The round trip of 880 miles cost me $190, mainly because gas was $2.54 down there, so I spent less than what I was figuring on. My mileage wasn't that good for this run though because of the mountainous stretch down I-77. I'm going to go out in a bit and fill my tank and then I'll calculate the mileage I got on the last leg, but I think I'm going to end up around 11 mpg for the trip. This trip has convinced me to get one of these. They get over 20 mpg with the Mercedes turbo diesel they have.

Razor Shines
05-09-2007, 06:07 PM
Here is kind of an interesting story:


Gas Station That Gave Discounts to Elderly Ordered to Raise Prices

Wednesday, May 09, 2007

MERRILL, Wis. — A service station that offered discounted gas to senior citizens and people supporting youth sports has been ordered by the state to raise its prices.

Center City BP owner Raj Bhandari has been offering senior citizens a 2 cent per gallon price break and discount cards that let sports boosters pay 3 cents less per gallon.

But the state Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection says those deals violate Wisconsin's Unfair Sales Act, which requires stations to sell gas for about 9.2 percent more than the wholesale price.

Bhandari said he received a letter from the state auditor last month saying the state would sue him if he did not raise his prices. The state could penalize him for each discounted gallon he sold, with the fine determined by a judge.

Bhandari, who bought the station a year ago, said he worries customers will think he stopped the discounts because he wants to make more money. About 10 percent of his customers had used the discount cards.

Dale Van Camp said he bought a $50 card to support the local youth hockey program. It would have saved him about $100 per year on gas, he said.

savafan
05-12-2007, 10:24 PM
Didn't work...

savafan
05-12-2007, 10:27 PM
Scary!

HumnHilghtFreel
05-12-2007, 10:36 PM
I commute to my college, and I have long breaks in between classes, so I go back and forth a couple times on class days. On top of my other driving, it's killing my pocket money filling up each week.

LawFive
05-22-2007, 05:02 PM
$3.49 here in Cincy today. Absolutely absurd.

zombie-a-go-go
05-22-2007, 05:20 PM
The incredulous "$3.09??!!" in the title of this thread seems quaint now, doesn't it? :laugh:

TeamCasey
05-22-2007, 05:22 PM
3.19 this morning ..... 3.49 tonight. I'm playing roulette with my tank again.

LawFive
05-22-2007, 05:26 PM
The incredulous "$3.09??!!" in the title of this thread seems quaint now, doesn't it? :laugh:

Fixed. Although, for historical reference, maybe I should have left it alone...I have a feeling we'll all be wistfully thinking of $3 gas within a year or so.

Does anyone have a white flag smiley? Cause we may as well all surrender to Big Oil.

dman
05-22-2007, 09:16 PM
Is there an emoticon for bend over and grab your ankles:angry:

Caveat Emperor
05-22-2007, 11:33 PM
$3.49 here in Cincy today. Absolutely absurd.

I filled up at the UDF in Newtown this evening at $3.18 -- everyone else was $3.49 and their were lines 5-6 cars back of people waiting to fill up at this particular place. By the time I got off the golf course at 9PM, they'd raised their prices to the standard $3.49.

I average 40 miles per day in commuting to and from downtown. I dispise riding buses, but I might have to switch off to a park and ride if it gets to $4 a gallon.

savafan
05-23-2007, 03:05 AM
current mileage rate per mile driven while using my vehicle for work is $0.445. That's not going to cut it...especially when I don't see those mileage checks for two to four weeks.

NJReds
05-24-2007, 11:23 AM
Still in the $2.85-$2.99 range here in northern New Jersey, but I have a feeling I'll see the $3+ on the way home tonight.

Unassisted
05-24-2007, 12:56 PM
Still in the $2.85-$2.99 range here in northern New Jersey, but I have a feeling I'll see the $3+ on the way home tonight.

I paid $2.93 down here this week.

There's a bunch of stations hanging around at $2.99.

It was a shock to see a station at $3.09 last weekend in another part of town. I'm sure it won't be a shock much longer.

BRM
05-24-2007, 01:01 PM
Gas has been hanging at $3.19 for quite some time out here. Diesel has been dropping though. I filled up for $2.95 this morning.

Cyclone792
11-15-2007, 06:21 PM
So apparently gas prices are supposed to spike up 20+ cents again for the "holiday season" that's approaching. Now who knows whether the "holiday season" entails merely Thanksgiving (i.e. next week), or if they'll just drag it out all through the Christmas and New Years holidays.

Gas did jump up to $3.19 last week, but I just filled up my second car's tank today at $3.05 due to the expectation that it's likely going to spike up again for Thanksgiving. I currently own two cars, and now both have full tanks. If gas prices jump up for Thanksgiving, I'm prepared to outlast them by not needing gas at all for the next two plus weeks.

BuckeyeRed27
11-15-2007, 06:35 PM
It is $3.49 for cheap gas and $3.79 for premium around here in LA.

Heath
11-15-2007, 08:21 PM
It's 2.95 in parts of Dayton.

I know a lot of people that usually go somewhere for T-Giving aren't going at all.

I'm still heading north.

westofyou
11-15-2007, 08:27 PM
Heating oil is at an obnoxious price, $3.25 a gallon, 6 years ago it was $1.19 and last year $2.19

Ltlabner
11-16-2007, 07:49 AM
Yep, I've filled up three or four times in the past week and 1/2. They were all well over $3.00 per gallon (don't remember the exact amount). And that was for regular.

We're heading down to Mississippi's gulf coast for Thanksgiving. It will be interesting to see how the gas prices are all along the way.

No plans to change our travel. It's going to be about $30 extra in gas to make the 1500 mile round trip (assuming a $.50 increase and a lot of miles). Canciling a week's vacation over $30 strikes me as rather foolish.

NYMoose
11-16-2007, 11:40 AM
Heating oil is at an obnoxious price, $3.25 a gallon, 6 years ago it was $1.19 and last year $2.19

Same here in Upstate NY. Paid $3.35 for heating oil last week. Hope it lasts a long time, but since snow is now falling, it probably will not. :(

westofyou
11-16-2007, 11:45 AM
Same here in Upstate NY. Paid $3.35 for heating oil last week. Hope it lasts a long time, but since snow is now falling, it probably will not. :(

It's cold up there in the Upper Jay area. When it rains it's warmer in the PNW, when it' clear it's colder, thus more heat.

Between a rock and a hard place, rain can be endless, but oil is expensive.

NJReds
11-16-2007, 11:54 AM
Paid $2.85 yesterday in NJ. It's cheaper here, probably because they can just siphon it out of the lakes and streams.

Heath
11-16-2007, 11:58 AM
Paid $2.85 yesterday in NJ. It's cheaper here, probably because they can just siphon it out of the lakes and streams.

Cheapest gas prices I've ever seen have been at the NJ end of the Holland Tunnel.

and it's Full Serve.

Gainesville Red
11-16-2007, 12:25 PM
$3.45 in Gainesville.

NJReds
11-16-2007, 12:47 PM
Cheapest gas prices I've ever seen have been at the NJ end of the Holland Tunnel.

and it's Full Serve.

Self Serve is not permitted in NJ.

westofyou
11-16-2007, 01:04 PM
Self Serve is not permitted in NJ.

Or Oregon

dabvu2498
11-16-2007, 01:07 PM
Or Oregon

Not to start another tipping thread, but is tipping pump jockeys the norm?

westofyou
11-16-2007, 01:13 PM
Not to start another tipping thread, but is tipping pump jockeys the norm?

Nope, but they just pump... I'd do it if I could, heck I did it for cash while I was in college, I can still do it.. but then again I bag my own groceries at Trader Joes.

Strikes Out Looking
11-16-2007, 04:51 PM
Between $2.99 and $3.07 in Montgomery County, Maryland (just west of D.C.).

Hopefully, high prices will be enough incentive for the private sector to push along alternative fuels. Time magazine had a bunch of new inventions that used less or alternative fuel that were a few years away. We'd all be much better off if these products would come sooner than later.

paintmered
11-16-2007, 04:55 PM
Between $2.99 and $3.07 in Montgomery County, Maryland (just west of D.C.).

Hopefully, high prices will be enough incentive for the private sector to push along alternative fuels. Time magazine had a bunch of new inventions that used less or alternative fuel that were a few years away. We'd all be much better off if these products would come sooner than later.

Yep, the economics will be the big driver of alternative fuels.

I read something that summed it up well: "If we're (alt. fuel) even one cent more expensive than gasoline, we're sunk."

SunDeck
11-16-2007, 05:28 PM
So my mother in law is on the condo board and last year the had an estimate to repave their parking lot. They put it off and got another estimate last month and the price went from something like $30k to $45k. It's all in the price of oil. Blacktop and the diesel fuel to power the machinery.

The members of the condo association were incredulous. They actually didn't get it- keep driving around alone in your SUVs and wonder why the price of everything else is going up.

I hate $3.00 gallons of gas, but I also think this is going to be what it takes to get our economy out from under oil. Luckily I live within biking distance of work and the grocery, so as the price of oil goes up, the potential health and cardiovascular gains become more likely.
But I feel bad for people who aren't so lucky.

Ltlabner
11-16-2007, 06:11 PM
Same here in Upstate NY. Paid $3.35 for heating oil last week. Hope it lasts a long time, but since snow is now falling, it probably will not. :(

Man, I am so not ready for cold and winter. I know February is the real killer, but every year that goes by I am less and less tollerant of cold.

westofyou
11-16-2007, 06:28 PM
Man, I am so not ready for cold and winter. I know February is the real killer, but every year that goes by I am less and less tollerant of cold.

I decided to move after attending the Ice Bowl playoff game.

LawFive
11-17-2007, 12:07 PM
Man, I am so not ready for cold and winter. I know February is the real killer, but every year that goes by I am less and less tollerant of cold.

I hear ya. I've been saying for years that one of these days I'll throw everything in a UHaul and move to Florida, but I haven't had the guts to yet.

remdog
11-17-2007, 12:50 PM
Random thoughts on various things I've read in this thread:

Winter of '78-'79 it hit -25 below zero and my car was buried in a heap of snow out front of the house for a week. Started planning and puting out job feelers that week. By June, '79 I was on my way to Sunny SoCal with a nice new job and a smile on my face. Never one regreted it.

I never thought of it but, in my mind at least, I think of Oregon as a pretty progressive state. I'm amazed they don't allow self-service. Wh'da thunk it!

I'm not sure exactly what gas runs here right now at my local discount station (guessing around $3.25-$3.35/gal). Yesterday was one month since I last filled up and I have about 3/8 of a tank left. I'm fortunate that I live so close to work.

GM was recently looking for volunteers to test-drive some hydrogen cars and I thought that it would be neat to be a part of the test group. Then I thought about how little I drive and I decided, 'nah, they'd probably conclude there no need to go further with research based on my small usage and ax the program'. :lol:

Rem

vaticanplum
11-17-2007, 03:07 PM
I hear ya. I've been saying for years that one of these days I'll throw everything in a UHaul and move to Florida, but I haven't had the guts to yet.

I'm in the Krono camp. It's not even cold enough for me yet.

I recently put the kabash on a potential move to LA because I don't think I could handle the weather. I don't particularly trust people who live in places without seasons. How can you truly love something like baseball if you haven't just lived through hell to get to it?

I'll take a ten cent increase on gas in exchange for snow any day. Plus I do agree with SunDeck that it is ultimately going to force less reliance on oil.

remdog
11-17-2007, 03:13 PM
I don't particularly trust people who live in places without seasons.


We have four seasons in California just like anyone else. It's just that ours are fire, flood, eartquake, mud. :p:

Rem

OldRightHander
11-17-2007, 11:21 PM
Not to start another tipping thread, but is tipping pump jockeys the norm?

I was just in Jersey recently. After paying $3.50 for diesel, the heck if I'm tipping anyone on top of that. I didn't know they didn't allow self serve until I was reaching for the pump and the guy stopped me.

OldRightHander
11-17-2007, 11:27 PM
I know I have complained already in this thread, but when the prices go up, my profit goes down. I'm not getting a higher rate when the fuel costs more, except the occasional surcharge that I can manage to get out of a shipper, but with some of them it's like trying to get blood out of a turnip. I saw diesel for $3.79 at one place in Detroit yesterday morning. The lowest price I've paid recently was $3.35. The one thing I don't get is why diesel is costing more these days than gas. For years it was always cheaper, then this year it has been shooting way up and in some states is close to .50 more than gas. If it costs less to refine than gas, then why the **** am I paying that much more for it at the pump? Trucking industry is a captive audience I guess.

vaticanplum
11-17-2007, 11:46 PM
I was just in Jersey recently. After paying $3.50 for diesel, the heck if I'm tipping anyone on top of that. I didn't know they didn't allow self serve until I was reaching for the pump and the guy stopped me.

You are not supposed to tip gas pumpers. Standard etiquette; their pay is already accounted for.

Ltlabner
11-18-2007, 08:24 AM
I decided to move after attending the Ice Bowl playoff game.

I was never a big fan of cold and winter but didn't really hate it either. I started noticing a few years ago that I was getting less and less pleased with the January-Feburary cold, wind and sno-ice.

June of 2006 our company took us white water rafting at a meeting. In Golden Colorado. And the water was about 38F. And I was in the front of the raft.

Ever since then (1) I promised to never complain about the heat ever again (2) I started planning on how to move south/south-west.

max venable
03-21-2008, 02:23 AM
Update: prices went to $3.49 this week in NE Ohio. How 'bout where you are?

remdog
03-21-2008, 02:26 AM
I've seen premium at $4.19 in NoCal.

Rem

NJReds
03-21-2008, 09:38 AM
Paid $3.05 in Northern New Jersey yesterday, but I've seen prices up to $3.15 (for regular unleaded)

rotnoid
03-21-2008, 10:38 AM
We're back down to $3.19 on the east side of Cincy. As high as $3.45 last week. I've seen diesel over $4 though.

EDIT: Post 1,000 griping about gas prices. Somehow I thought it would have been more meaningful.

dman
03-21-2008, 11:34 AM
$3.04 on the southwest side of Franklin county. I toyed with the idea of getting a diesel engine pickup when I bought mine back in '04. I ended up settling on a V-8 powered Dodge Dakota. Am I ever glad I did that. It hauls everything that I need for it to haul.

savafan
03-21-2008, 03:27 PM
Just saw gas for $3.10 here in N. Kentucky on my way home from work.

OldRightHander
03-21-2008, 04:50 PM
This week I have paid as much as $4.29 in Grand Rapids, $4.11 in Chicago, $4.00 in Gary, $4.10 in Minneapolis, and $4.05 in South Beloit. That's for diesel though. Diesel prices are outrageous right now. I've just arrived back home and I haven't noticed what it's going for in Cincinnati.

Stephenk29
03-21-2008, 10:40 PM
3.30 in St. Louis

dougdirt
03-22-2008, 12:15 AM
I paid 3.19 on the west side of Cincinnati this evening, saw it was high as 3.49 this past week. Driving less and less right now, trying to save as much money as I can for the summer when I have to drive for work. Its going to kill me.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
03-22-2008, 12:23 AM
I drive a Nisan Titan and have started using the e-85 fuel, has anyone else been using it for a while and have any feedback. I'm paying around 2.60/gal here in Dayton and lovin it. It's kinda funny though, I'm moving to Darke county pretty soon where they just opened an ethanol plant yet the closest gas station that carries e-85 is in troy about a half hour away.

savafan
03-22-2008, 06:11 PM
I drive a Nisan Titan and have started using the e-85 fuel, has anyone else been using it for a while and have any feedback. I'm paying around 2.60/gal here in Dayton and lovin it. It's kinda funny though, I'm moving to Darke county pretty soon where they just opened an ethanol plant yet the closest gas station that carries e-85 is in troy about a half hour away.

I'm not even familiar with this e-85 fuel. Can you tell me more about it?

dman
03-23-2008, 07:19 AM
I've heard that the E85 fuel has a faster burn rate, resulting in less miles per gallon and the end result is you fill up more frequently and end up spending nearly the same as you would with regular fuel.

paintmered
03-23-2008, 11:21 AM
I drive a Nisan Titan and have started using the e-85 fuel, has anyone else been using it for a while and have any feedback. I'm paying around 2.60/gal here in Dayton and lovin it. It's kinda funny though, I'm moving to Darke county pretty soon where they just opened an ethanol plant yet the closest gas station that carries e-85 is in troy about a half hour away.

Which stations in Troy and Dayton have E-85?

OldRightHander
03-23-2008, 02:03 PM
You know what bugs me? The last time a barrel of oil was under $100, diesel was around $3.20. Oil went up and diesel hit $4.00. Now oil is down under $100 and gas is coming back down some, but diesel is still hanging at or over $4.00. I wonder what would happen if all the truckers just parked for a week.

savafan
03-24-2008, 08:23 AM
FYI, got gas for $2.95 last night in northern Montgomery County

BRM
03-24-2008, 01:17 PM
I paid $3.85 for diesel this morning. Gas is around $3.09 now and it's been there for awhile.

Ravenlord
03-24-2008, 02:41 PM
I wonder what would happen if all the truckers just parked for a week.Long-term it would probably be good overall, short term it'd cause a mass recession after the fourth day or so.

OldRightHander
03-24-2008, 02:49 PM
Long-term it would probably be good overall, short term it'd cause a mass recession after the fourth day or so.

And then maybe they'd stop gouging on the diesel prices. It's just darn frustrating to see diesel close to $1.00 more than unleaded at the same station when you consider that diesel costs less to refine than gas goes. The car driving public can change their driving habits in order to buy less gas, but some of us don't have that choice. We have to drive to make money and that takes diesel.

BRM
03-24-2008, 02:52 PM
Speaking of truckers shutting down, check this out.

http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2008/03/19/news/iowa/doc47e03e9ea03bd427238845.txt?sPos=3

OldRightHander
03-24-2008, 03:04 PM
Speaking of truckers shutting down, check this out.

http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2008/03/19/news/iowa/doc47e03e9ea03bd427238845.txt?sPos=3


One thing the association is trying to do is talk to lawmakers and truckers about making sure that surcharges being charged to shippers are getting back to the people who paid for the gas. Surcharges are supposed to compensate for high fuel charges, but they must be negotiated with each shipper, and the truckers who pay at the pump aren’t always first in line to receive the surcharges.

This is one of the problems in this industry. A lot of freight is through brokers and some of the brokers are charging more from the shippers because of the fuel being higher, but not all of them are passing that extra money on to the carriers or drivers.

Ravenlord
03-24-2008, 04:22 PM
This is one of the problems in this industry. A lot of freight is through brokers and some of the brokers are charging more from the shippers because of the fuel being higher, but not all of them are passing that extra money on to the carriers or drivers.

and this is one of the few instances where i think Federal Regulation would be usefull...as long as it avoids Mr. Hill entirely, otherwise it would either be useless or have a negative effect.

savafan
04-29-2008, 12:12 AM
$10 a gallon??? :eek:

http://www2.nysun.com/article/75363

KronoRed
04-29-2008, 01:19 AM
The great depression part 2 is on its way.

NYMoose
04-29-2008, 09:01 AM
Paid 4.40 for kerosene last week. Boy am I glad winter is over.

rotnoid
04-29-2008, 09:34 AM
$10 a gallon??? :eek:

http://www2.nysun.com/article/75363


Might just about be motorcycle time at my house.

OldRightHander
04-29-2008, 03:30 PM
I haven't seen diesel under $4 for a while now. I saw a place for $4.40 here in Chicago just a few minutes ago. I'm glad I have enough to get to Indiana for a fill up.

It's getting harder on my profit margin these days. I'm still not getting one dime more for a load from any of the major freight brokers than I was getting when fuel was cheaper. I have no doubt that some of the brokers are charging their customers more for freight because of higher fuel, but like I said before, I'm not seeing that increase. There's a double whammy right now with the high fuel and the slower economy. Freight is slower now, so there are more trucks competing for the loads, which means that companies are having to bid lower to get loads, but now is not the time you want to be running for less money. Real catch 22. You can't afford to run for cheaper because of the high fuel, but if you don't drop your bid down, you're not going to get a load at all and you'll end up sitting. I've managed to get a couple decent paying ones so far this week, but I've been lucky to be in the right place at the right time. I'm currently sitting in Chicago at a dock waiting to be loaded with something bound for Cleveland.

And if fuel stays high, look for everything else to go up too. All that stuff you buy got to the store somehow, and if it's costing more now to get it there, somebody's going to pay that increase, and it's not going to be the freight broker.

Unassisted
04-29-2008, 04:35 PM
$10 a gallon??? :eek:

http://www2.nysun.com/article/75363

What better way to convince people to use mass transit? ;)

TeamSelig
04-29-2008, 04:52 PM
I am buying a moped

OldRightHander
04-29-2008, 04:56 PM
What better way to convince people to use mass transit? ;)

Which works fine if you have a choice. What do I do?

Unassisted
04-29-2008, 06:15 PM
Which works fine if you have a choice. What do I do?Charge more!

redsfan1966
04-29-2008, 08:40 PM
I am in agreement that we will have another depression soon....