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View Full Version : Who is the Reds best all-around player?



reds44
04-22-2006, 11:36 AM
Pretty simple. I think it comes down to Adam Dunn and Felipe Lopez. They appear to be the head of the field on everyone else.

Thoughts?

I say Felipe.

westofyou
04-22-2006, 11:39 AM
Austin Kearns.

captainmorgan07
04-22-2006, 11:50 AM
felipe he can do it all hit for average power steal bases good glove sometimes erratic arm but that was in his young years

Highlifeman21
04-22-2006, 11:50 AM
Austin Kearns.


You beat me to it. What he said:clap:

pahster
04-22-2006, 11:55 AM
Austin Kearns.

Word.

dougdirt
04-22-2006, 11:57 AM
Well if we are talking about current play, this season I have to say Austin Kearns. I like Felipe Lopez a little more than Dunn, especially through this season. Something about being 3-29 with runners on base dampers how I feel about Dunn right now. Until Kearns hitting starts to slip, I have to give him the nod. His defense is VERY good and for now he is swinging the bat better than most everyone on the team.

redsmetz
04-22-2006, 11:57 AM
I'm not sure who to say, but then I'm of the school that notes that while you may have one player or another who is the "best all-around player", it takes a team to win. It's not good to have one stud and nothing else. I really like how this team is rounding out.

Red Daddy
04-22-2006, 12:00 PM
Arroyo!!!! he does it all.

BigRed
04-22-2006, 12:14 PM
If you're talking about all 5 tools, it has to be FELIPE. Austin doesn't have the speed factor.

Barbarossa
04-22-2006, 12:23 PM
Felipe Lopez Jr. is the Reds best all-around player right now.

westofyou
04-22-2006, 12:26 PM
If you're talking about all 5 tools, it has to be FELIPE. Austin doesn't have the speed factor.
Perhaps, then the rebuttle would be that Austin excels beyond most of his peers on defense, whereas Lopez is a slightly below average fielder (or so the debate would say) compared to his peers.

If you are going to go straight with 5 tools we'll be weeding alot a guys out.

BTW for those who are down on Dunn because of his RISP, or last week or because he doesn't fit the Frank Merriwell mold of the storybook ballplayer, some of you guys would have hung ED back in 1987, nine striaght K's in 2 days , 19 years ago Monday


Cincinnati Reds 4, Houston Astros 3

Day

Game Played on Friday, April 24, 1987 (N) at Astrodome

CIN N 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 - 4 8 1
HOU N 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 1 - 3 7 2

BATTING

Cincinnati Reds AB R H RBI BB SO PO A
Daniels lf 5 1 1 1 0 2 3 0
Stillwell ss 5 1 1 0 0 0 2 6
Parker rf 5 0 3 0 0 2 3 0
Davis cf 5 0 0 0 0 4 2 0
Bell 3b 4 0 2 0 1 2 0 0
Garcia pr 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Robinson p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Diaz c 3 0 0 1 1 0 8 0
Francona 1b 5 0 0 0 0 1 11 3
Oester 2b 5 1 1 2 0 2 2 4
Gullickson p 3 0 0 0 0 1 2 0
Franco p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
O'Neill ph 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Murphy p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Concepcion ph,3b 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Totals 42 4 8 4 2 15 33 15


Cincinnati Reds 3, Houston Astros 0

Day

Game Played on Saturday, April 25, 1987 (N) at Astrodome

CIN N 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 - 3 6 1
HOU N 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 0 2 0

BATTING

Cincinnati Reds AB R H RBI BB SO PO A
Jones lf 3 0 0 1 1 1 1 0
Stillwell ss 5 0 1 2 0 1 3 4
Parker rf 5 0 2 0 0 2 0 0
Davis cf 5 0 0 0 0 5 8 0
Bell 3b 4 0 1 0 0 0 1 3
Diaz c 3 0 1 0 0 1 4 0
Garcia pr 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Butera c 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Francona 1b 2 0 0 0 1 0 11 0
Oester 2b 3 1 1 0 1 2 1 4
Power p 3 0 0 0 0 2 1 0
Franco p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Daniels ph 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Browning pr 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Williams p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
Totals 33 3 6 3 4 14 30 13

BTW it was Ryan and Scott who did the damage. ;)

RFS62
04-22-2006, 12:29 PM
I'm pretty sure Nolan Ryan pitched that game, and I was there.

westofyou
04-22-2006, 12:30 PM
I'm pretty sure Nolan Ryan pitched that game, and I was there.
What did you throw at him?

D Cell?

Marge Bobblehead?

Sea Ray
04-22-2006, 12:33 PM
Perhaps, then the rebuttle would be that Austin excels beyond most of his peers on defense, whereas Lopez is a slightly below average fielder (or so the debate would say) compared to his peers.

If you are going to go straight with 5 tools we'll be weeding alot a guys out.

BTW for those who are down on Dunn because of his RISP, or last week or because he doesn't fit the Frank Merriwell mold of the storybook ballplayer, some of you guys would have hung ED back in 1987, nine striaght K's in 2 days , 19 years ago Monday


BTW it was Ryan and Scott who did the damage. ;)

The remarkable thing about that Astros series was that as I recall the Reds swept all three games. No question Eric Davis had a wiff problem similar to that of Adam Dunn. Since he couldn't stay healthy he never approached 200 Ks in a year.

pedro
04-22-2006, 12:33 PM
I'd go with Kearns too.

Raisor
04-22-2006, 12:34 PM
I will not start another K argument.
I will not start another K argument.
I will not start another K argument.

I will not start another K argument.
I will not start another K argument.

Raisor
04-22-2006, 12:35 PM
Freel has been extra Scrappy this year.

Reds Nd2
04-22-2006, 12:59 PM
Austin Kearns

fisch11
04-22-2006, 01:06 PM
Felipe hands down. If Ryan Freel had power it would be a different argument.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2006, 01:06 PM
Dunn.

I don't distinguish between "best all-around" and "best."

UC_Ken
04-22-2006, 01:09 PM
If by all around you mean does everything well then I would probably go off the board here and go with EdE. Speed, power, range on defense. He's the only guy besides Kearns that has the capability of being a great defender and hitter, unless Lopez were to move to 3B which isn't happening with EdE there. I know his throws are a little shaky now but I think he makes up for it with spectacular plays.

Wheelhouse
04-22-2006, 01:12 PM
GRIFFEY. Period.

Hollcat
04-22-2006, 01:13 PM
Wow 29 K's and they won both games.

MWM
04-22-2006, 01:13 PM
Dunn.

I don't distinguish between "best all-around" and "best."

Seriously! The only question that matters is whose net contribution, both positive and negative, contributes most to wins.

BRM
04-22-2006, 01:16 PM
Kremcheck?

I vote Dunn. I love K's.

Casey_21
04-22-2006, 01:17 PM
My boy Austin. He'll be a Gold Glover one day!! :thumbup:

Big Klu
04-22-2006, 01:26 PM
Perhaps, then the rebuttle would be that Austin excels beyond most of his peers on defense, whereas Lopez is a slightly below average fielder (or so the debate would say) compared to his peers.

If you are going to go straight with 5 tools we'll be weeding alot a guys out.

BTW for those who are down on Dunn because of his RISP, or last week or because he doesn't fit the Frank Merriwell mold of the storybook ballplayer, some of you guys would have hung ED back in 1987, nine striaght K's in 2 days , 19 years ago Monday


Cincinnati Reds 4, Houston Astros 3

Day

Game Played on Friday, April 24, 1987 (N) at Astrodome

CIN N 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 - 4 8 1
HOU N 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 1 - 3 7 2

BATTING

Cincinnati Reds AB R H RBI BB SO PO A
Daniels lf 5 1 1 1 0 2 3 0
Stillwell ss 5 1 1 0 0 0 2 6
Parker rf 5 0 3 0 0 2 3 0
Davis cf 5 0 0 0 0 4 2 0
Bell 3b 4 0 2 0 1 2 0 0
Garcia pr 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Robinson p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Diaz c 3 0 0 1 1 0 8 0
Francona 1b 5 0 0 0 0 1 11 3
Oester 2b 5 1 1 2 0 2 2 4
Gullickson p 3 0 0 0 0 1 2 0
Franco p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
O'Neill ph 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Murphy p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Concepcion ph,3b 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Totals 42 4 8 4 2 15 33 15


Cincinnati Reds 3, Houston Astros 0

Day

Game Played on Saturday, April 25, 1987 (N) at Astrodome

CIN N 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 - 3 6 1
HOU N 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 0 2 0

BATTING

Cincinnati Reds AB R H RBI BB SO PO A
Jones lf 3 0 0 1 1 1 1 0
Stillwell ss 5 0 1 2 0 1 3 4
Parker rf 5 0 2 0 0 2 0 0
Davis cf 5 0 0 0 0 5 8 0
Bell 3b 4 0 1 0 0 0 1 3
Diaz c 3 0 1 0 0 1 4 0
Garcia pr 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Butera c 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Francona 1b 2 0 0 0 1 0 11 0
Oester 2b 3 1 1 0 1 2 1 4
Power p 3 0 0 0 0 2 1 0
Franco p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Daniels ph 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Browning pr 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Williams p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
Totals 33 3 6 3 4 14 30 13

BTW it was Ryan and Scott who did the damage. ;)


A Terry Francona sighting! He makes Scott Hatteberg look like Ted Kluszewski! :D

Kal Daniels must have been dinged up a little bit, what with Tom Browning pinch-running for him and Tracy Jones starting against the righthander in the 4/25 game.

BoydsOfSummer
04-22-2006, 01:48 PM
Other- Kearns

RFS62
04-22-2006, 03:16 PM
What did you throw at him?

D Cell?

Marge Bobblehead?



Well, if I had thrown anything at Nolan Ryan in the Astrodome, I'd probably have been lynched out in the parking lot, after the tar and feathers had cooled off.

It was a packed house, and Ted Powers beat Nolan, while ED struck out 5 straight times, as I remember it.

It's impossible to overstate how popular Ryan was in Houston back then. He grew up in Alvin, just outside of Houston, and they worshipped him there.

Matt700wlw
04-22-2006, 03:18 PM
I voted Lopez, but Kearns is a close (VERY close) second....

To think, I was writing Lopez off back in 2003-2004. Boy was I wrong!

RFS62
04-22-2006, 03:26 PM
My vote goes to Kearns too. If he can stay healthy, he may just realize all the potential we've seen in him the past few years.

But it's not out of the realm of possibility that Brandon Phillips is the best all around player. Impossible to say after so little time, but it wouldn't surprise me.

KronoRed
04-22-2006, 03:55 PM
Kearns, all around guy.

GAC
04-22-2006, 05:21 PM
Seriously! The only question that matters is whose net contribution, both positive and negative, contributes most to wins.

Agree.

So when we are asking who is the Reds best all-around player... are we talking about talent/athletic ability? or net contribution (i.e. MVP type)?

Raisor
04-22-2006, 05:36 PM
I vote Dunn. I love K's.


excellent my minion. EXCELLENT.

WMR
04-22-2006, 06:18 PM
It's Dunn. Even in LF.

Put him at 1B and there wouldn't be any room for debate whatsoever.

Javy Pornstache
04-23-2006, 01:07 AM
Most definitely number 17.

RedsMan3203
04-23-2006, 01:12 AM
Lopez, Dunn, EDE, Kearns and if Phillips keeps up at a decent pace. We have a future in Cincinnati with all these younger guys.

Get a decent and i mean decent run of the mill staff and we are lookin at playoff bound... Untill then...

wolfboy
04-23-2006, 01:52 AM
Last Year:

Griffey 7.88 RC/27
Dunn 7.15 RC/27
Lopez 6.19 RC/27

That's my input.

Now, why didn't you just call this thread "Is Felipe Lopez better than Adam Dunn". If you wanted a sincere discussion on who the best all around player is, why only include two choices in your poll?

reds44
04-23-2006, 02:57 AM
Last Year:

Griffey 7.88 RC/27
Dunn 7.15 RC/27
Lopez 6.19 RC/27

That's my input.

Now, why didn't you just call this thread "Is Felipe Lopez better than Adam Dunn". If you wanted a sincere discussion on who the best all around player is, why only include two choices in your poll?
Are you trying to say Griffey is our best player?
That would be impossible when you are hurt as much as Griffey.

So far 46 of 61 voters think Felipe or Dunn is our best player, so I still don't think anyone else was needed.

redsrule2500
04-23-2006, 03:36 AM
Arroyo / Freel

SteelSD
04-23-2006, 04:28 AM
Are you trying to say Griffey is our best player?
That would be impossible when you are hurt as much as Griffey.

So far 46 of 61 voters think Felipe or Dunn is our best player, so I still don't think anyone else was needed.

You didn't think anyone else was needed because you've been calling Felipe Lopez the Reds' "best player" for weeks now.

2005- Win Shares:

Adam Dunn- 29
Felipe Lopez- 22
Ken Griffey Jr.- 22
Jason Larue- 18

In 2005, Lopez was closer to Larue in Win Shares than he was Dunn.

But lets check this season for value:

Equivalent Average:

Dunn: .378 EQA (7th in NL)
Kearns: .339 EQA (18th in NL)
Lopez: .289 EQA

Equivalent Runs:

Dunn: 14.1 (4th in NL)
Kearns: 11.4 (10th th in NL)
Lopez: 9.0 (6th among MLB Shortstops)

Runs Above Position (RAP):

Dunn: +8.2
Kearns: +4.8
Lopez: +2.4

(Freel is ahead of Lopez at +4.1 RAP, BTW)

Equivalent Runs by Position:

Dunn: 14.1 (1st in MLB)
Kearns: 11.4 (3rd in MLB)
Lopez: 9.0 (6th in MLB)

Currently, Dunn is -1.2 Fielding Runs Above Average for his position. Kearns is at a +/- 0. Lopez is at a -3 FRAA.

Batting Runs Above Average? Lopez is at a +2. Kearns is at a +3. Dunn is at a +8.

Regardless of what you think your poll is telling you, there's really no contest thusfar this season and there hasn't been for quite some time.

wolfboy
04-23-2006, 09:21 AM
Are you trying to say Griffey is our best player?
That would be impossible when you are hurt as much as Griffey.

So far 46 of 61 voters think Felipe or Dunn is our best player, so I still don't think anyone else was needed.

Griffey posted more HR, more RBI, a higher OBP and SLG. Neither one provides above average defense for their position. Griffey puts up better numbers in less at bats, and you say it's impossible for Griffey to be better. You are trying to sell personal bias, and I'm not buying. Most people on this board aren't either. They tend to value data over emotion.

That being said, I think Dunn is our best all around player. I listed Griffey and the RC/27 numbers to show that someone else might merit being in the conversation. If you had looked at some data, you may have realized this as well. Instead, you went with your gut feeling on this, and we have a poll with two names.

reds44
04-23-2006, 02:59 PM
Griffey posted more HR, more RBI, a higher OBP and SLG. Neither one provides above average defense for their position. Griffey puts up better numbers in less at bats, and you say it's impossible for Griffey to be better. You are trying to sell personal bias, and I'm not buying. Most people on this board aren't either. They tend to value data over emotion.

That being said, I think Dunn is our best all around player. I listed Griffey and the RC/27 numbers to show that someone else might merit being in the conversation. If you had looked at some data, you may have realized this as well. Instead, you went with your gut feeling on this, and we have a poll with two names.
Bias?

My favorite player on the Reds is Griffey you noob. He was the reason I became a Reds fan.

wolfboy
04-23-2006, 05:18 PM
Bias?

My favorite player on the Reds is Griffey you noob. He was the reason I became a Reds fan.

A few suggestions:

1. Save the name calling for PM.
2. Save the life story for someone who cares.
3. Don't act like your pseudo-poll is relevant data.

DropDocK
04-23-2006, 08:54 PM
Kearns

Lopez a close second and scary good potential for Edwin and Phillips (so far)