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Wheelhouse
04-23-2006, 11:50 AM
Per Marc's blog...

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/

Milton to have surgery

MILWAUKEE -- Early word this morning that Eric Milton will have arthroscopic surgery tomorrow to "debride the meniscus in his left knee," according to the Reds. Doc Kremchek will do the deed, of course. The injury apparently was revealed in an MRI taken last night.

This obviously means a DL trip for Milton, though nothing official has been said about that. Though it would require a 40-man move, my best guess is Darrell May joining the club by tomorrow. That's just a guess, though.

More later, I assume...

redsfan30
04-23-2006, 11:59 AM
Hopefully it fixes the problem and allows him to continue his hot start (minus Tuesday night).

reds44
04-23-2006, 12:02 PM
How long is he going to be out?

Wheelhouse
04-23-2006, 12:08 PM
No word yet...

redsfan30
04-23-2006, 12:09 PM
I would guess since they're scoping it, it won't be too terrible long.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2006, 12:09 PM
And the Reds pitching automatically improves...

captainmorgan07
04-23-2006, 12:10 PM
hopefully they can get a surgery to fix this man's era although he had a hot start that last start was terrible

KYRedsFan
04-23-2006, 12:25 PM
If they just debride it, shouldn't be more than 3-4 weeks hopefully, maybe less.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2006, 12:38 PM
If they just debride it, shouldn't be more than 3-4 weeks hopefully, maybe less.

He's got an injury history on the knee -- I'd be wary of making prognostications one way or the other until they finish stitching him back up.

This could be something relatively quck, or we could not see Milton for quite some time. Either way, it puts a gaping hole in a rotation that was already bleeding with Dave Williams at the back end, who now becomes the 4th starter.

membengal
04-23-2006, 12:44 PM
How long is he going to be out?

I am holding out hope for "5 months"...

bellhead
04-23-2006, 12:48 PM
With the mcl probally just 4 to 6 weeks at worst. Hopefully on 4.

edabbs44
04-23-2006, 12:57 PM
Not for nothing, but no matter what Milton has done to this team over the last 1+ years, we still cannot be too happy about this. Darrell May is replacing him. May has had one season in his career with an era under 5.27. Think about that. At least Uncle Milty has has a little success in his life. Last year May had a 6.81 era in 66 innings. That makes Milton look positively Gibson-like. Kriv better be running up his cell phone bill or else this summer will be a lot longer than any of us ever anticipated.

Caseyfan21
04-23-2006, 12:59 PM
It looks like the Lizard will be the man to replace him. I just hope we aren't rushing him too fast after his performance last year when he was up for a brief while:

From Marc's blog:

Looking like EZ

MILWAUKEE -- Let's get the disclaimer out of the way:

"We have not decided 100 percent who's going to be here," said Jerry Narron. "I really don't know."

Nonetheless, a decision on tomorrow's starter is forthcoming, and it looks as if Elizardo Ramirez is the leader in the clubhouse. Though he's not scheduled to pitch until Tuesday for Louisville, he wouldn't be on short rest; his last start came Wednesday. And he's already on the roster, which makes it much easier.

Narron joked that he tried to ask Krivsky for Homer Bailey, but "he stopped me before the 'H'"

membengal
04-23-2006, 01:00 PM
May's 6.81 ERA last year is "Milton-like" as far as I am concerned, as DanO traded for a damaged Milton who will never again see his days of league averageness. So, yeah, May blows. But he's replacing a pitcher who blows, so, well, it will just seem like more of the same.

I would be a lot more upset if he were replacing Harang or Arroyo in the rotation.

Edit:

If it's the Lizard, that's even better. I get to hold a tiny amount of hope for him and the change that Soto was supposedly teaching him.

wheels
04-23-2006, 01:08 PM
From the looks of the amount of replies to this thread, most folks around here saw this one coming. The knee's been the culprit for Milton for a while now.

reds44
04-23-2006, 01:18 PM
I hope it's the Lizard.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2006, 01:22 PM
From the looks of the amount of replies to this thread, most folks around here saw this one coming. The knee's been the culprit for Milton for a while now.

Makes me wonder if they've got insurance on the contract -- if they open the knee and find out he needs another operation, the Reds might be able to collect some coin back on that awful deal and use the money someplace else.

CTA513
04-23-2006, 01:24 PM
It probably wont be Gosling because I see hes starting for the Bats today.

If its Elizardo, I hope he pitches better than he did last year when he came up.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2006, 01:28 PM
Elizardo is pitching tomorrow

reds44
04-23-2006, 01:29 PM
Elizardo is pitching tomorrow
Nice.

Hopefully the kid does well.

redsfan30
04-23-2006, 01:31 PM
Nice to have him make his first start this year in the Grand Canyon (RFK Stadium). Having that big a ballpark should enable him to be alittle more agressive in the strikezone.

PuffyPig
04-23-2006, 01:32 PM
Makes me wonder if they've got insurance on the contract -- if they open the knee and find out he needs another operation, the Reds might be able to collect some coin back on that awful deal and use the money someplace else.

It's almost impossible to get insurance on pre-existing injuries, or, at the very least, prohibitly expensive to do so.

RFS62
04-23-2006, 01:37 PM
Makes me wonder if they've got insurance on the contract


Too bad suckitude isn't covered.

Wheelhouse
04-23-2006, 01:38 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't ballclubs insure all major contracts?

westofyou
04-23-2006, 01:51 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't ballclubs insure all major contracts?
No, you can't insure contracts over 3 years anymore, plus some players have injuries that an insurer will see as a fault... IE Milton's knee.

Just like I can't get earthquake insurance in some areas, some players can't get insurance because of their prior problems, plus many insurers don't recoup losses until a certain percentage of games are missed.

MWM
04-23-2006, 01:54 PM
His degenerate knee condition is in his right knee. It looks like he'll have problems with both of them now. YAY!!!!!

cincinnati chili
04-23-2006, 01:56 PM
I'm also under the impression that some clubs don't think insurance is a good investment, even if it's offered. If you're a guy like Carl Pohlad, and you have a billion dollar net worth, then you can probably absorb an unfortunate injury.

cincinnati chili
04-23-2006, 01:58 PM
Narron joked that he tried to ask Krivsky for Homer Bailey, but "he stopped me before the 'H'"

Good for Wayne.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2006, 02:04 PM
Too bad suckitude isn't covered.

The suckitude is because of the knee(s).....

Falls City Beer
04-23-2006, 02:08 PM
Be careful what you wish for with Elizardo. It's not like the Reds have much choice but to bring him up right now, but man he's been nothing but atrocious when he's been up.

reds44
04-23-2006, 02:12 PM
Be careful what you wish for with Elizardo. It's not like the Reds have much choice but to bring him up right now, but man he's been nothing but atrocious when he's been up.
He is 23 (susposedly) and has made 4 career starts. You jump to conclusions too fast.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2006, 02:14 PM
He is 23 (susposedly) and has made 4 career starts. You jump to conclusions too fast.

Well, he does have a minor league history that suggests he's just not very good. I think just the opposite. You suggesting that he's good is jumping to conclusions.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2006, 02:17 PM
He is 23 (susposedly) and has made 4 career starts. You jump to conclusions too fast.

I made a post about him on the ORG -- I'll summarize by saying that I'm NOT high on the kid, and that unless he's changed radically from the guy I saw last year, he's going to fit right in with this rotation.

westofyou
04-23-2006, 02:20 PM
You suggesting that he's good is jumping to conclusions.

Take a poll!! ;)

membengal
04-23-2006, 02:24 PM
I am in the middle. At 23, I can hope me might improve on his minor league numbers at some point (perhaps learn a new pitch?), yet fully acknowledge that he is FAR from being someone for whom one should be expecting even an average stat line given a lot of starts.

At any rate, I like him a little more for tomorrow night then Darrel May. Damning with faint praise, but there it is...

wheels
04-23-2006, 02:24 PM
Oh crap.....It's his LEFT knee.

I glossed over "knee" thinking it was the same one.

Wow. That's really strange.

westofyou
04-23-2006, 02:27 PM
BTW who can name the last 2 Reds starters at age 23 (or younger) to get more than 5 starts in a season?

Falls City Beer
04-23-2006, 02:29 PM
BTW who can name the last 2 Reds starters at age 23 (or younger) to get more than 5 starts in a season?

Jack Armstrong.

dougdirt
04-23-2006, 02:29 PM
Well, he does have a minor league history that suggests he's just not very good. I think just the opposite. You suggesting that he's good is jumping to conclusions.

He has a minor league ERA of 2.93, WHIP of 1.14 and a 5-1 strikeout to walk ratio. How is that a minor league history that shows hes just not very good?

I dont think he is going to come in here and be lights out, but I expect much better than last year in a Reds uniform as well.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2006, 02:33 PM
BTW who can name the last 2 Reds starters at age 23 (or younger) to get more than 5 starts in a season?

Brian Reith?

PuffyPig
04-23-2006, 02:34 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't ballclubs insure all major contracts?
Against death, probably yes. "Injury" insuranse is really expensive, for obvious reasons. Remember, insurance companies make money. So,they collect more in premiums than they pay out. It makes ense to buy, say, fire insurance for the average homeowner, as they don't want to gamble the premiums vs. the complete loss. But, on a cost/expectation of return it's actually a bad investment for the home owner, as the insurance company will collect more in premiums than pay out.

The cost of getting insurance on all of the Reds contracts against injury would run you many millions of dollars.

reds44
04-23-2006, 02:34 PM
He has a minor league ERA of 2.93, WHIP of 1.14 and a 5-1 strikeout to walk ratio. How is that a minor league history that shows hes just not very good?

I dont think he is going to come in here and be lights out, but I expect much better than last year in a Reds uniform as well.
Seems pretty good to me.

westofyou
04-23-2006, 02:35 PM
Brian Reith?
Yeah he's one... the other that year was Reitsma, the year before Bell.

membengal
04-23-2006, 02:36 PM
He has a minor league ERA of 2.93, WHIP of 1.14 and a 5-1 strikeout to walk ratio. How is that a minor league history that shows hes just not very good?

I dont think he is going to come in here and be lights out, but I expect much better than last year in a Reds uniform as well.


Ooops. Took FCB's characterization of the Lizards' minor league stats without looking it up for myself. My bad.

At 23, with that stat line, there is reason for a smidgen of optimism for him then...

rdiersin
04-23-2006, 02:39 PM
He has a minor league ERA of 2.93, WHIP of 1.14 and a 5-1 strikeout to walk ratio. How is that a minor league history that shows hes just not very good?

I dont think he is going to come in here and be lights out, but I expect much better than last year in a Reds uniform as well.

Yea, but he's never had a K/9 above 7 in full season ball until this year (which is very early). He was rushed, yes, but he's not a great prospect. Those H/9 numbers look pretty bad too. Can he improve, certainly, he is young and has already improved some this year, predominately by changing speeds IIRC. But he has never had great stuff. Hopefully he will do better this time around, but lets not get crazy and say his minor league history shows him as being good.

dougdirt
04-23-2006, 02:43 PM
Well, his minor league history surely doesnt show him being not good. An ERA under 3 and a whip under 1.20 constitutes good in my book. Yes its just minor leagues, but that is what we were talking about. He isnt the greatest prospect around, but I dont think he is projected to be anything but a #4/5 guy, but he is still young, and has shown success throughout his minor league career. As a 22 year old in AAA last year, he finished 9th in ERA in the league.

CTA513
04-23-2006, 02:50 PM
I checked his blog again and it says Ramirez is getting the start tomorrow.

rdiersin
04-23-2006, 02:50 PM
Well, his minor league history surely doesnt show him being not good. An ERA under 3 and a whip under 1.20 constitutes good in my book. Yes its just minor leagues, but that is what we were talking about. He isnt the greatest prospect around, but I dont think he is projected to be anything but a #4/5 guy, but he is still young, and has shown success throughout his minor league career. As a 22 year old in AAA last year, he finished 9th in ERA in the league.

The point isn't that he hasn't performed well in minors, because with an ERA under 3, he has. The point is that he hasn't performed well in things that are indicators for future success in the majors, like K/9. Those sorts of things lead one to doubt his future as a major league pitcher, coupled with his performance last year with the Reds. Now, he has done better this year with a K/9 of 8.44, but it's way too earlier to say he's turned some kind of corner.

reds44
04-23-2006, 02:52 PM
The point isn't that he hasn't performed well in minors, because with an ERA under 3, he has. The point is that he hasn't performed well in things that are indicators for future success in the majors, like K/9. Those sorts of things lead one to doubt his future as a major league pitcher, coupled with his performance last year with the Reds. Now, he has done better this year with a K/9 of 8.44, but it's way too earlier to say he's turned some kind of corner.
I will trust ERA and K/BB ratio over K per 9 innings.

westofyou
04-23-2006, 02:53 PM
I will trust ERA and K/BB ratio over K per 9 innings.
The Radke over Ryan Theory eh?

rdiersin
04-23-2006, 02:55 PM
I will trust ERA and K/BB ratio over K per 9 innings.

Hint: They're all important. ;)

Aronchis
04-23-2006, 03:30 PM
The Lizard was overrushed last year(sorta like Chick) and that was to AAA. He only had a few months success in AA before being stupidly promoted to AAA where he couldn't handle the level yet. I doubt he is quite ready yet either, if this were next year, I would be much more optimistic on his chances to pitch "quality" at this time. Hopefully he can hold his own at this point, but it won't be easy.

Topcat
04-23-2006, 03:33 PM
He is 23 (susposedly) and has made 4 career starts. You jump to conclusions too fast.


Oh he does ! He does! My personal belief is as a die hard fan , he just hurts to the point the negadelphia is takin over ;)

UPRedsFan
04-23-2006, 03:57 PM
What I'd really like to see is Belisle for a few starts with Lizard as the long man

NatiRedGals
04-23-2006, 04:25 PM
MILWAUKEE -- Tests on Eric Milton's sore left knee revealed that the Reds starting pitcher will need arthroscopic surgery to clean out damaged meniscus cartilage.

Milton will go on the 15-day disabled list, retroactive to April 19, on Monday. Pitching on three days' rest, Aaron Harang started in Milton's place on Sunday. Pitcher Elizardo Ramirez will be called up from Triple-A Louisville and start Monday at Washington.

Coming off two strong starts, Milton took a step backwards in Tuesday's 12-6 loss to Florida when he gave up nine earned runs and eight hits in 4 1/3 innings.

"I did not think he looked right at all," Reds manager Jerry Narron said Sunday morning. "He did not complain about his knee. As a matter of fact, he said that he really couldn't feel [pain in] his knee until he threw on the side here. It was pretty obvious he didn't have the same stuff he had the first two outings."

Once Milton reported discomfort, he was sent to Cincinnati on Saturday to be examined by team medical director Dr. Tim Kremchek and underwent an MRI test. Kremchek will perform the surgical procedure on Monday morning.

The 30-year-old is expected to miss 2-3 weeks, but he won't necessarily have a routine recovery process since this will be the third surgery on Milton's left knee since 2002. In March 2003 when he was with the Twins, torn lateral meniscus cartilage required a major operation and forced him to miss most of the season.

"There's concern about that," Narron said of Milton's medical history. "There's concern about how much he's going to be able to throw the first week after the surgery and what he's going to lose between his last outing and when he'll be able to start working."

Milton is 2-1 with a 6.50 ERA in three starts this season. He was hoping to have a bounce-back year after he went 8-15 with a 6.47 ERA while allowing a Major League leading 40 home runs.

Timing was right: Ramirez was 0-1 with a 3.94 ERA in three starts this season for Louisville but hasn't issued a walk in 16 innings. The decision to promote the 23-year-old was as much about timing as performance.

Among other candidates, lefty Michael Gosling was scheduled to pitch for Louisville on Sunday. Right-hander Justin Germano pitched on Saturday and veteran lefty Darrell May, set to throw on Monday, wasn't on the 40-man roster and would require an extra move to make room.

At the big-league level, long man Matt Belisle had to pitch four innings of relief for Dave Williams on Thursday.

As for 19-year-old top pitching prospect Homer Bailey, who is with Class A Sarasota, general manager Wayne Krivsky shot down any such suggestion that the 2004 first-round pick would get his first call up.

"I got 'H-O' out of my mouth and couldn't finish 'M-E-R,' before I got cut off," Narron said laughing. "I got cut off quick. I think he caught me before I even got to the 'H.'"

Meanwhile, Ramirez pitched six innings on Wednesday and would be pitching on his usual four days' rest. He retired 14 of his first 15 batters during a no-decision in his last outing. Last season, the right-hander was 0-3 with an 8.46 ERA in six games, including four starts for Cincinnati.

Freel sits: For the first time since he replaced the injured Ken Griffey Jr. in center field on April 12, Ryan Freel was not in Cincinnati's starting lineup on Sunday. Freel was 1-for-18 (.056) in previous match-ups vs. Brewers starter Doug Davis.

Veteran Quinton McCracken led off and started in center field in Freel's place.

Coming up: The road trip moves to the nation's capital on Monday for the first of three games against the Nationals. Livan Hernandez (1-2, 7.11 ERA) will start the 7:05 p.m. ET opener for Washington against Ramirez.

KronoRed
04-23-2006, 04:26 PM
Brian Reith?
Poor kid, thrown to the dogs.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2006, 06:35 PM
Poor kid, thrown to the dogs.

I remember watching his MLB debut. I think he took a perfect game into the 6th and it was all downhill from there.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2006, 06:41 PM
I remember watching his MLB debut. I think he took a perfect game into the 6th and it was all downhill from there.

I remember that. I believe it was against the future World Series Champion D-Backs. I think he ended up pitching solid for a few inning at Wrigley Field in his next start and then as you said he went downhill after that.

Hap
04-23-2006, 06:46 PM
Brian Reith was also waived by the Reds and then picked up by the Phillies and then waived by the Phillies and then back with the Reds in less than a month's time.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/reithbr01.shtml

Chip R
04-23-2006, 08:32 PM
What I'd really like to see is Belisle for a few starts with Lizard as the long man

He is piggybacking Williams.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2006, 08:33 PM
He is babysitting Williams.

Fixed it for you. :evil:

GAC
04-23-2006, 09:37 PM
The surgery shouldn't take long. There isn't much cartilage left in that knee.

KronoRed
04-23-2006, 10:11 PM
Brian Reith was also waived by the Reds and then picked up by the Phillies and then waived by the Phillies and then back with the Reds in less than a month's time.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/reithbr01.shtml
And apparently out of baseball now.

red-in-la
04-24-2006, 12:46 AM
May's 6.81 ERA last year is "Milton-like" as far as I am concerned, as DanO traded for a damaged Milton ......

Milton was signed as a FA.

membengal
04-24-2006, 01:05 AM
Sorry. yes. of course, free agent.

Caveman Techie
04-24-2006, 10:07 AM
I didn't even get past the first page before I was disgusted with this thread. Alot of the veteran posters should really think before you type. A player is hurt and going on the DL and the first thing you do is make smart-alec remarks about his "suckiness".

You should all (and you know who you are) be ashamed of yourselves. I really like Redszone.com and I have learned alot here but, sometimes with all the player-hating and negative vibe coming from alot of posters here it is really hard. Sometimes I swear this isn't Redszone anymore, it looks more like the old cincinnati.com forum.

Go ahead and ding my rep for this post all you want, it doesn't matter cause unless things start to change, I won't be here anymore.

membengal
04-24-2006, 11:03 AM
I don't know if I am a veteran poster, but I am unapolgetic for hoping Milton takes a good 5 months to rehab this latest injury. I want him to be healthy as he looks ahead to retirement...

westofyou
04-24-2006, 11:08 AM
A player is hurt and going on the DL and the first thing you do is make smart-alec remarks about his "suckiness".

A player who makes a quarter millon per start is a pretty big target when he hasn't performed up to said contract.

As for this not being "Redszone" I say complaining about Milton is more "redszone" than not.

wheels
04-24-2006, 11:33 AM
I didn't even get past the first page before I was disgusted with this thread. Alot of the veteran posters should really think before you type. A player is hurt and going on the DL and the first thing you do is make smart-alec remarks about his "suckiness".

You should all (and you know who you are) be ashamed of yourselves. I really like Redszone.com and I have learned alot here but, sometimes with all the player-hating and negative vibe coming from alot of posters here it is really hard. Sometimes I swear this isn't Redszone anymore, it looks more like the old cincinnati.com forum.

Go ahead and ding my rep for this post all you want, it doesn't matter cause unless things start to change, I won't be here anymore.


Ummm....The only time "suckitude" was used was in reference to the knee condition.

Yes, the degenerative knee condition has caused the suckitude.

When a player is hurt, he doesn't play as well.

I think it's a fair assessment.

Red Leader
04-24-2006, 11:39 AM
Narron joked that he tried to ask Krivsky for Homer Bailey, but "he stopped me before the 'H'"

This guy?

My kid OWNS him....




Just sayin'

Caveman Techie
04-24-2006, 11:54 AM
Ummm....The only time "suckitude" was used was in reference to the knee condition.

Yes, the degenerative knee condition has caused the suckitude.

When a player is hurt, he doesn't play as well.

I think it's a fair assessment.


So someone asking if "suckitude" is covered by insurance is relevant? However you are correct when someone pointed out that the suckitude was caused by the knee condition, that was relevant and I agree with that.

We could all see in the last start that Milton didn't look the same as he did in ST and his first two starts of the season. I remember in the game thread people were stating that something was wrong and that they thought he was hurt. Yes by all means that is relevant.

Falls City Beer
04-24-2006, 11:57 AM
I'd say that, in general, if a post doesn't break the rules of the board, preaching against it is pretty fruitless.

RFS62
04-24-2006, 12:53 PM
So someone asking if "suckitude" is covered by insurance is relevant? However you are correct when someone pointed out that the suckitude was caused by the knee condition, that was relevant and I agree with that.

We could all see in the last start that Milton didn't look the same as he did in ST and his first two starts of the season. I remember in the game thread people were stating that something was wrong and that they thought he was hurt. Yes by all means that is relevant.


I made the post you're referring to, I believe. And to be truthful, it's the kind of post that used to drive me crazy too.

But I've kind of gotten used to the concept that when someone around here says a player "sucks", I don't believe they mean it personally. It's pretty much about performance. Last year he sucked, massively.

I don't wish him any bad luck or ill will. He may be the nicest guy in the world. And it may well have been due to his knee injury, I don't know.

Likewise, when a player is playing "great", that doesn't necessarily mean he's a good guy. Barry Bonds, for instance.

registerthis
04-24-2006, 02:55 PM
What I'd really like to see is Belisle for a few starts with Lizard as the long man

Belisle is the Jeckyl to Dave William's Mr. Hyde.

Red Leader
04-24-2006, 03:02 PM
What I'd really like to see is Belisle for a few starts with Lizard as the long man


Looks like you are going to get your wish after today's game.


Elizardo Ramirez will start Monday against the Nationals.
Ramirez is filling in for Eric Milton who will undergo knee surgery on Monday. The Reds are expected to juggle their bullpen so that Ramirez will go to the bullpen following the start and Matt Belisle will take the slot in the rotation

Falls City Beer
04-24-2006, 03:19 PM
I made the post you're referring to, I believe. And to be truthful, it's the kind of post that used to drive me crazy too.

But I've kind of gotten used to the concept that when someone around here says a player "sucks", I don't believe they mean it personally. It's pretty much about performance. Last year he sucked, massively.

I don't wish him any bad luck or ill will. He may be the nicest guy in the world. And it may well have been due to his knee injury, I don't know.

Likewise, when a player is playing "great", that doesn't necessarily mean he's a good guy. Barry Bonds, for instance.

Plus, in this life, there's something to be said for avoiding euphemisms.