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View Full Version : Under New Regime, Tonight is Very Important



redsfan30
04-25-2006, 11:52 AM
I think tonight is a very important night for Dave Williams. With the new leadership, they've already shown that they're not afriad to deal with players who don't produce. The prior group would have given him every chance to go out and get himself right (IE, throwing Eric Milton out there every fifth day to get shelled).

Williams has had two horrendous starts and one very average start. Everyone wants to know if the team will make a trade. Everyone wants to know who leaves Friday when Junior is ready to go. I've got to think if Williams gets pounded again tonight, he's going to have a very worrysome next couple days.

Now I don't think a bad outing tonight will lead to his being DFA'd but I do think he has to worry about being burried in the bullpen if he doesn't have a good night tonight. It all goes back to the new ownership group. They just won't put up with it for too long. They won't let him run out there and get destroyed for too much longer, especially while the rest of the team is playing some pretty good ball.

He's in the right park to succeed tonight, RFK Stadium. If he can't keep the ball in the park and avoid giving up a ton of runs in that monster of a stadium, we've got even bigger problems than we thought with him.

So, what do you think? Is it still too early for posts like this, or do you think that tonight is very important to the near future of Dave Williams?

Unassisted
04-25-2006, 12:01 PM
You're probably right. If he gets shelled, it could well be his last appearance in a Reds uniform. If he delivers a quality start, it likely just postpones the inevitable for a few games.

flyer85
04-25-2006, 12:04 PM
You're probably right. If he gets shelled, it could well be his last appearance in a Reds uniform. There certainly is no spot in the bullpen for him. Ramirez pitching decently is certainly not in his favor.

TRF
04-25-2006, 12:14 PM
Tonight is also key for Matt Belisle. If Williams falters, and if he does in that park, man is that a bad sign, then Belisle will most likely be called on to bail him out. If he does well, as he did last time, then likely he gets Williams spot in the rotation. I think Belisle can be a real sleeper, and I'm not sure if we know his ceiling. He can run it up to 95 in relief. I've seen that. But what is his comfort zone as a starter? 90-92 is my guess.

LincolnparkRed
04-25-2006, 12:24 PM
I like belisle alot but man if that curve is spinning instead of bitting look out because it will be a long night. I think Belisle makes for a good swing man as long as he is not inheriting runners, for some reason he really struggles with that.

I think anything good that Williams does should be discounted a slight bit given where the game is but I think there will be a decision made on him within the next couple of weeks.

Falls City Beer
04-25-2006, 12:26 PM
I'll say this again: I've never seen a worse performance than last Saturday's game against St. Louis. Oh, I've seen greater numbers of runs surrendered, more homers, walks, hit-batsmen--the works. But just in terms of what was leaving Williams' hand and heading toward homeplate, that was pathetic. The most sorry, enervated, slack-ass crap was spilling out his hand. I'm being tomb-serious when I say I could have accomplished what Dave Williams accomplished on Saturday.

corkedbat
04-25-2006, 12:31 PM
I hope he throws a no-hitter tonight, we immediately place him on wiavers, someone gets caught up in the moment and claims him :D

OR

Maybe after the game,they can get everybody on the bus to the airport without him noticing an we can leave him "home alone".

Then maybe Jimbo will find a nice home for him - he could probably use a designated drvier.

Oh shoot - that's tomorrow - maybe we can forfeit and leave early - it'd be worth it

RedFanAlways1966
04-25-2006, 12:45 PM
one very average start

* 6IP, 5H, 2ER, 3K, 2BB.
>> 2 errors by the defense and 2 ER by the bullpen.
>> Offensive shutdown against Pitt's Santos... score only 3 runs.

I do not have the baseball dictionary for words like average and good ; however, I think he did a bit better than "very average" that night against the Pirates. 6 IP and 2 ER in today's MLB is pretty good and deserving of a better fate than he got that night when the offense shutdown, the defense had a couple of lapses and the BP coughed up a couple of runs. The other two starts were definitely horrendous!

Be warned: We should not get too excited about Elizardo either.... at least not yet. Last year he had a QS in his first start for the REDS (May 15), then got hit worse than the love-child of Jimmy Anderson and Jimmy Haynes (18ER in 12.1IP).

As a REDS diehard I hope Williams shocks us all. As a realist (and w/ a GM who is not afraid to drop the hammer when needed) I cannot see him continuing much longer as he has. I want to be shocked tonight! :)

cumberlandreds
04-25-2006, 01:14 PM
I'll say this again: I've never seen a worse performance than last Saturday's game against St. Louis. Oh, I've seen greater numbers of runs surrendered, more homers, walks, hit-batsmen--the works. But just in terms of what was leaving Williams' hand and heading toward homeplate, that was pathetic. The most sorry, enervated, slack-ass crap was spilling out his hand. I'm being tomb-serious when I say I could have accomplished what Dave Williams accomplished on Saturday.

Come on FCB, tell us how you really feel. :laugh:

chicoruiz
04-25-2006, 01:32 PM
Geez, it's April 25 and people are talking about cutting the guy already? I don't think we should tolerate an extended run of poor performances, but I'd like to think our new management team isn't quite that much of a weather vane. Williams has looked pretty messed up in a couple of starts, as finesse pitchers often do, but he's got a track record of being able to pitch up here. I'd lose respect for an organization that scrapped him based on this small a sample size.

redsmetz
04-25-2006, 02:08 PM
* 6IP, 5H, 2ER, 3K, 2BB.
>> 2 errors by the defense and 2 ER by the bullpen.
>> Offensive shutdown against Pitt's Santos... score only 3 runs.

I do not have the baseball dictionary for words like average and good ; however, I think he did a bit better than "very average" that night against the Pirates. 6 IP and 2 ER in today's MLB is pretty good and deserving of a better fate than he got that night when the offense shutdown, the defense had a couple of lapses and the BP coughed up a couple of runs. The other two starts were definitely horrendous!

Be warned: We should not get too excited about Elizardo either.... at least not yet. Last year he had a QS in his first start for the REDS (May 15), then got hit worse than the love-child of Jimmy Anderson and Jimmy Haynes (18ER in 12.1IP).

As a REDS diehard I hope Williams shocks us all. As a realist (and w/ a GM who is not afraid to drop the hammer when needed) I cannot see him continuing much longer as he has. I want to be shocked tonight! :)

I absolutely agree, both about your candid analysis of his first three games, but also about tonight. I want the guy to do well. I don't know that he can, but he behooves us for him to show the modicum of some ability.

Fullboat
04-25-2006, 03:43 PM
What is Williams contract status?Is he easy to get rid off as Womack was?

KronoRed
04-25-2006, 03:45 PM
What is Williams contract status?Is he easy to get rid off as Womack was?
Cheaper.

flyer85
04-25-2006, 03:46 PM
What is Williams contract status?Is he easy to get rid off as Womack was?IIRC, he is owed $1.4M on a one year deal. He may well have an option remaining.

It certainly hard to see how he will be successful with a low 80's fastball, a mediocre change and a rolling curve. There is only one Moyer.

Tommyjohn25
04-25-2006, 03:47 PM
I'll say this again: I've never seen a worse performance than last Saturday's game against St. Louis. Oh, I've seen greater numbers of runs surrendered, more homers, walks, hit-batsmen--the works. But just in terms of what was leaving Williams' hand and heading toward homeplate, that was pathetic. The most sorry, enervated, slack-ass crap was spilling out his hand. I'm being tomb-serious when I say I could have accomplished what Dave Williams accomplished on Saturday.


Ditto.

Yachtzee
04-25-2006, 04:19 PM
As Edskin would say, it's the most important game of the season. ;)

Aronchis
04-25-2006, 04:24 PM
Claussen's performance was worse than Williams. Matter of fact, Claussen pitched one of the worst games a professional could pitch. I simply didn't think somebody could pitch that bad, but Brandon showed it could be done.

But the difference is, while Brandon could come back with a number of good starts after that implosion(remember his post-ASB implosion then a strong finish last year?), Williams most likely will never get any better.

traderumor
04-25-2006, 04:30 PM
I'll say this again: I've never seen a worse performance than last Saturday's game against St. Louis. Oh, I've seen greater numbers of runs surrendered, more homers, walks, hit-batsmen--the works. But just in terms of what was leaving Williams' hand and heading toward homeplate, that was pathetic. The most sorry, enervated, slack-ass crap was spilling out his hand. I'm being tomb-serious when I say I could have accomplished what Dave Williams accomplished on Saturday.I didn't think it could be worse, but the Milwaukee outing gave that one a run for its money.

registerthis
04-25-2006, 04:34 PM
But the difference is, while Brandon could come back with a number of good starts after that implosion(remember his post-ASB implosion then a strong finish last year?), Williams most likely will never get any better.

That's the key right there. Everyone knows that Claussen has better stuff than he showed against milwaukee on Saturday. As awful as it was, that was an aberration for him--not typical. With Williams, that's simply not the case. He just isn't a very good pitcher. He may not suck as much as he did in the St. Louis game, but he's not going to do much better.

harangatang
04-25-2006, 04:42 PM
I think there's the possibilty he could be hurt, I mean his fastball is in the low 80s for crying out loud. Time to call up Germano after tonight's start.

NewEraReds
04-25-2006, 04:55 PM
* 6IP, 5H, 2ER, 3K, 2BB.
>> 2 errors by the defense and 2 ER by the bullpen.
>> Offensive shutdown against Pitt's Santos... score only 3 runs.

I do not have the baseball dictionary for words like average and good ; however, I think he did a bit better than "very average" that night against the Pirates. 6 IP and 2 ER in today's MLB is pretty good and deserving of a better fate than he got that night when the offense shutdown, the defense had a couple of lapses and the BP coughed up a couple of runs. The other two starts were definitely horrendous!

Be warned: We should not get too excited about Elizardo either.... at least not yet. Last year he had a QS in his first start for the REDS (May 15), then got hit worse than the love-child of Jimmy Anderson and Jimmy Haynes (18ER in 12.1IP).

As a REDS diehard I hope Williams shocks us all. As a realist (and w/ a GM who is not afraid to drop the hammer when needed) I cannot see him continuing much longer as he has. I want to be shocked tonight! :)
you forgot to bold a word in that though, PITTSBURGH:)

Strikes Out Looking
04-25-2006, 05:03 PM
Williams is pitching against a bad offensive team in a pitcher's ballpark--so he may do ok tonight. If not, Belisle should be rested and ready to bail him out.

I've been thinking about Belisle and I think, with the inconsistency in the starting staff, he may be more valuable in long relief than as the fifth starter.

TOBTTReds
04-25-2006, 05:07 PM
I'll say this again: I've never seen a worse performance than last Saturday's game against St. Louis. Oh, I've seen greater numbers of runs surrendered, more homers, walks, hit-batsmen--the works. But just in terms of what was leaving Williams' hand and heading toward homeplate, that was pathetic. The most sorry, enervated, slack-ass crap was spilling out his hand. I'm being tomb-serious when I say I could have accomplished what Dave Williams accomplished on Saturday.

This is obviously an attempted jinx. How many times did you say Brandon Phillips was absolutely awful and it was disgrace he was on the team and other BS like that?

Anyway, I was at the Reds/Dodgers game last year when Paul Wilson gave up 9 or so w/o an out. That was the worst.

NewEraReds
04-25-2006, 05:08 PM
This is obviously an attempted jinx. How many times did you say Brandon Phillips was absolutely awful and it was disgrace he was on the team and other BS like that?

Anyway, I was at the Reds/Dodgers game last year when Paul Wilson gave up 9 or so w/o and out. That was the worst.
yea, i remember that one. cant say its the worst ive ever seen, but i cant remember any that were :)

KronoRed
04-25-2006, 05:09 PM
Anyway, I was at the Reds/Dodgers game last year when Paul Wilson gave up 9 or so w/o an out. That was the worst.
This calls for the "photo"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/Kronosb/1.jpg

Falls City Beer
04-25-2006, 05:12 PM
This is obviously an attempted jinx. How many times did you say Brandon Phillips was absolutely awful and it was disgrace he was on the team and other BS like that?


Well, only once. And let's face it, Phillips'even when scraping his ceiling of skills isn't that great. Now's the hard part: what does he do when pitchers don't give him meatballs to hit?

I asked the same question over and over about Wily Mo, and was ripped up one side and down the other for suggesting that he may not burst into the realm of super-super-super-super stardom that virtually EVERY poster on this board thought he was headed for (excepting woy, god bless ya).

Brandon Phillips had a good week. Get back to me when he has even a respectable year in the bigs.

Tommyjohn25
04-25-2006, 05:19 PM
This calls for the "photo"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/Kronosb/1.jpg

Is it just me or does everybodies stomach tie in knots at the mere sight of DanO?

TOBTTReds
04-25-2006, 06:40 PM
Well, only once. And let's face it, Phillips'even when scraping his ceiling of skills isn't that great. Now's the hard part: what does he do when pitchers don't give him meatballs to hit?

I asked the same question over and over about Wily Mo, and was ripped up one side and down the other for suggesting that he may not burst into the realm of super-super-super-super stardom that virtually EVERY poster on this board thought he was headed for (excepting woy, god bless ya).

Brandon Phillips had a good week. Get back to me when he has even a respectable year in the bigs.

Not trying to be a jerk, but 6 times.

But I won't clog the board with junk. So I won't quote them.

Falls City Beer
04-25-2006, 06:44 PM
Not trying to be a jerk, but 6 times.

But I won't clog the board with junk. So I won't quote them.

Oh, so my saying it within the same timeframe on the same thread counts 6 times? :rolleyes:

When Phillips does turn out to be scrofula, I won't count on you conceding I was right. Right?

TOBTTReds
04-25-2006, 06:52 PM
Oh, so my saying it within the same timeframe on the same thread counts 6 times? :rolleyes:

When Phillips does turn out to be scrofula, I won't count on you conceding I was right. Right?

I will. But I'm not saying he is going to be great, or even good. I've really only seen him play about 15 games. Just didn't like the bashing, that's all. But if you are right, I'll send you a shout out. Let's kill it. :beerme:

GO REDS!

KronoRed
04-25-2006, 08:32 PM
Is it just me or does everybodies stomach tie in knots at the mere sight of DanO?
It's the smile that does it for me.

RedFanAlways1966
04-25-2006, 08:43 PM
Anyway, I was at the Reds/Dodgers game last year when Paul Wilson gave up 9 or so w/o an out. That was the worst.

REDS shortest outings by a starter in 2005
(1) Paul Wilson - May 6 vs. Dodgers
> 0.0 IP, 8ER, 5H, 1BB, 0K, 2HRA, 25 pitches.
(2) Eric Milton - Sept. 18 @ Pirates
> 0.2 IP, 6ER, 6H, 2BB, 0K, 0HRA, 35 pitches.
(3) Ramon Ortiz - Aug. 2 vs. Braves
> 1.1 IP, 6ER, 8H, 2BB, 0K, 0HRA, 40 pitches.
(4) Ramon Ortiz - June 7 vs. Devil Rays
> 1.2 IP, 6ER, 7H, 2BB, 1K, 1HRA, 54 pitches.
(5) 2 IP... Ramon Ortiz (twice, May 1 @ Brewers & June 29 @ Cards) & Luke Hudson (July 1 vs. Astros).

RedlegJake
04-25-2006, 10:17 PM
Williams has to be hurt. No way in heck the guy ever posted the record he did with Pittsburgh (very mediocre but immeasurably better than this year) with the junk he has shown on the mound this season.

The Baumer
04-25-2006, 10:25 PM
I personally think every single player on the Reds who is doing good right now is going to do terrible, and that you should keep an eye out for all the players who are doing terrible- they will put together a steady and solid year, you'll see. When my predictions come true I am going to log back in and do a keyword search for "The Baumer you were right".

Falls City Beer
04-25-2006, 10:30 PM
"The Baumer, you were shrill."