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GullyFoyle
04-26-2006, 12:26 AM
(table)
I've been hearing a little bit of rumbling about the Worlds Series pair and their ability to repeat on ESPN lately... what no one is mentioning is out of thirty teams the Astros are 30th in strength of schedule and the White Sox 29th.

Here is hoping we kick Houston's butt this week

http://homepage.mac.com/richardpratt/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2006-04-25%2020.24.38%20-0700/Image-1EAD80E2D4D411DA.jpg

GullyFoyle
04-26-2006, 12:27 AM
BTW... poor Pittsburgh is third. I think they'll do better eventually.

Mario-Rijo
04-26-2006, 12:38 AM
Is that projected SOS over the course of '06, or SOS to this point in the season?

GullyFoyle
04-26-2006, 12:40 AM
Sorry... so far this season.

RBA
04-26-2006, 12:43 AM
Astros can't have the toughest schedule, because to have the toughest schedule they would have to play themselves. As we know that can't happen. So I'm told by Astros fans. ;)

Astrobuddy
04-26-2006, 12:52 AM
The season all washes. Strength of Schedule doesnt matter at this point. What matters is after game 162. You still have to beat these teams and by beating them it makes their record worse this the low rating.


Dont you worry RBA, the Reds will get their crack at my Astros this weekend.

MattyHo4Life
04-26-2006, 08:21 AM
BTW... poor Pittsburgh is third. I think they'll do better eventually.

I agree on Pittsburgh. Everybody is down on Pittsburgh for having a bad team. That team is going to surprise some people. They can hit, and their pitching will come around. They have been playing some really good teams lately.

MattyHo4Life
04-26-2006, 08:25 AM
The season all washes. Strength of Schedule doesnt matter at this point. What matters is after game 162.

That was Gully's point. The standings right now mean nothing at the end of the season, but the Astros have had an easier schedule that the other NL Central contenders. The schedule will be a wash by the end of the season, and the Astros will play tougher teams while the other teams play easier teams. It's no biggie. The Astros just seem to be playing better baseball than they actually are. It's just smoke and mirrors.

GoReds
04-26-2006, 09:10 AM
Of note - five of the top ten in the RPI rankings are from the NL Central.

Chicago (1) .572
St. Louis (3) .554
Cincinnati (4) .550
Houston (10) .516

Falls City Beer
04-26-2006, 09:36 AM
That was Gully's point. The standings right now mean nothing at the end of the season, but the Astros have had an easier schedule that the other NL Central contenders. The schedule will be a wash by the end of the season, and the Astros will play tougher teams while the other teams play easier teams. It's no biggie. The Astros just seem to be playing better baseball than they actually are. It's just smoke and mirrors.

I'd really advise against underestimating the Astros.

redsmetz
04-26-2006, 09:36 AM
Of note - five of the top ten in the RPI rankings are from the NL Central.

Chicago (1) .572
St. Louis (3) .554
Cincinnati (4) .550
Houston (10) .516

I've said all along that the NL Central is probably the best division in baseball. I don't think Pittsburgh is going to flounder all season and Milwaukee is a continually improving ballclub.

By the way, SOS through now may level out, but my mantra since the season's onset has been that games we win now help later in the standings and I point to 1999 as emblematic of that. That team would have loved to have had one more victory in April that would have won the division in October.

MattyHo4Life
04-26-2006, 09:44 AM
I'd really advise against underestimating the Astros.

I know I know...you've been picking them even before the season started. :D

BigDonkey44
04-26-2006, 09:49 AM
I know our schedule seemingly gets easier now, doesn't it? Starting with this series against the pecker nats.

Falls City Beer
04-26-2006, 09:53 AM
I pick them because last season they took an offense that had no business even being in the postseason all the way to the World Series.

That team genuinely proved something to me last season; they were MLB's Jason--they never died.

It's going to take a very different turn of events to suggest to me that they've "lost it" or "have an easy schedule."

I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, but I predict an Astros sweep of the Reds this series--all come-from-behind victories after early offensive outbursts by the Reds. I suspect the Cardinals will suffer a few losses to the Stros themselves in such a fashion with the likes of Brad Thompson, Braden Looper, Flores, Rincon, Hancock and their ilk tossing their slop.

oneupper
04-26-2006, 10:09 AM
I agree on Pittsburgh. Everybody is down on Pittsburgh for having a bad team. That team is going to surprise some people. They can hit, and their pitching will come around. They have been playing some really good teams lately.

Well, that would be the Cardinals, Astros, Reds (playing like a good team, at least), Brewers and Cubs (3-15 vs Central). Unfortunately for the Bucs, they are going to have to play those teams a whole lot more this season.

I don't think it's going to get better for the Bucs and they could lose 95 games or more. The club is a collection of position players with no special talent (except for Bay...and he's off to a so-so start) and young pitchers who are making the jump to the majors without being ready.

Oliver Perez has lost it. Randa is over the hill as is Burnitz. Duffy and McLouth are white Tike Redmans (w better OB skills, granted). Duke and Snell show promise, however.

They'll be better...in 2008. IF they clear out the chaff.

But they made a push to "compete" in 2006 and it ain't working. The best they can do is realize the mistake and try to get some value for what they still have (Jack Wilson, anyone?).

Buc fans can feel fortunate that it didn't take them until June to figure out that they weren't as good as the Astros and the Cards.

oneupper
04-26-2006, 10:16 AM
I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, but I predict an Astros sweep of the Reds this series--all come-from-behind victories after early offensive outbursts by the Reds. I suspect the Cardinals will suffer a few losses to the Stros themselves in such a fashion with the likes of Brad Thompson, Braden Looper, Flores, Rincon, Hancock and their ilk tossing their slop.

I won't flame you. Pretty much I'm fearing the same thing. The pitching matchups don't look good. Griffey could be back (cold?) and parts of the offense are not working right now (Freel, Dunn slumping).

If we win one against the 'stros, I'll be content. Two...partying. Three...call 911, my heart won't take that.

Astrobuddy
04-26-2006, 10:17 AM
Matty, smoke and mirrors? You have anymore of what you are smoking?

paintmered
04-26-2006, 10:28 AM
Matty, smoke and mirrors? You have anymore of what you are smoking?

Personal attacks aren't tolerated around here. Just so you know.

MattyHo4Life
04-26-2006, 10:30 AM
Buc fans can feel fortunate that it didn't take them until June to figure out that they weren't as good as the Astros and the Cards.

I would hope that they didn't think that before the season started. Being optomistic is one thing, but that would be delusional. There has never been any question, in my mind at least, that the Pirates are the worst team in the NL Central. I just don't think they are as bad as their records shows now. They are just in a very good division.

UPRedsFan
04-26-2006, 10:32 AM
What exactly is RPI?

Astrobuddy
04-26-2006, 10:46 AM
Paintmered, that wasnt a personal attack. Not even close. I have had much the same type thing said to me. Where were you then?

Chill man. I am quite sure Matty understood the humor in it. He said smoke, I said smoke. It was a personal attack.

Whenever my Astros are winning and I speak my mind I get into trouble. Imagine that.

Cant Touch This
04-26-2006, 11:14 AM
The Astros have played 15 of their first 20 games in Houston, posting an 11-4 record in that span. They are 3-2 on the road. The Reds have played 12 of their first 21 games on the road, going 8-4 away from Cincinnati (6-3 at home.)

The NL Central is tough this year. The only division in MLB with six teams, it boasts five with a winning record. While everyone is beating up on the Pirates (15-3 against the Bucs), the Central is also taking care of the East (17-5) and the West (10-7.) I think each Reds/Astros game will be an edge-of-the-seat affair. Unfortunately, if it comes down to pen vs. pen, Houston holds the advantage. Even so, our guys have something going - let's ride the streak...!

PuffyPig
04-26-2006, 11:28 AM
If the SOS includes games played by the Reds, wouldn't you expect that the teams with the best records would have played against the weakest opponents? For example, since we are 14-7, the teams we have played against have gone 7-14 against us, thereby looking worse than they really are. If a 14-7 team schedule is compared against a 7-14 team, and both have played the exact same schedule, the 14-7 team will look like it's played the easier schedule because they played the 7-14 team and the 7-14 team played the 14-7 team.

To get a true pitcher of your opponents, games involving the Reds shouildn't count ie you should determine the Reds opponents records without reference to the games against the Reds.

MattyHo4Life
04-26-2006, 11:34 AM
I pick them because last season they took an offense that had no business even being in the postseason all the way to the World Series.

I just don't see it. The Astros offense had more business than the Cardinals offense without Rolen and a hobbling Walker. Guys like So Taguchi, John Rodriguez, and Abraham Nunez aren't exactly world beaters. The Astros are hot right now, but they are going to cool off soon. I really think both the Reds and the Cardinals will finish ahead of them. I did think the Brewers would be strong, but they may need anther year before they are a real contender in this division. The Cubs, well, they are the Cubs and won't do much without Lee, Wood, and Prior.

MattyHo4Life
04-26-2006, 11:47 AM
If the SOS includes games played by the Reds, wouldn't you expect that the teams with the best records would have played against the weakest opponents?

The Cardinals, Reds, and Cubs all have one thing in common. They have played almost half of their games against each other, but no games against the Astros. These three teams have all been beating up on each other while the Astros have been playing easier opponents. This is why I call it smoke and mirros. The Astros haven't played any games against the top teams in the Central, and have taken advantage of those teams taking games away from each other. The Astros have a lot of games against the Reds, Cardinals, and Cubs ahead of them. The Astros don't play any games against the Cubs until June. By then, the Cubs may have Lee, Prior, and/or Wood back making them tougher than they are now without those three.

smith288
04-26-2006, 11:47 AM
I pick them because last season they took an offense that had no business even being in the postseason all the way to the World Series.

That team genuinely proved something to me last season; they were MLB's Jason--they never died.

It's going to take a very different turn of events to suggest to me that they've "lost it" or "have an easy schedule."

I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, but I predict an Astros sweep of the Reds this series--all come-from-behind victories after early offensive outbursts by the Reds. I suspect the Cardinals will suffer a few losses to the Stros themselves in such a fashion with the likes of Brad Thompson, Braden Looper, Flores, Rincon, Hancock and their ilk tossing their slop.
Ill go and say that exact opposite and say we sweep them with superior pitching and timely hitting simply because you and I have been having several inexplicable run-ins lately. ;)

Falls City Beer
04-26-2006, 11:49 AM
I just don't see it. The Astros offense had more business than the Cardinals offense without Rolen and a hobbling Walker. Guys like So Taguchi, John Rodriguez, and Abraham Nunez aren't exactly world beaters. The Astros are hot right now, but they are going to cool off soon. I really think both the Reds and the Cardinals will finish ahead of them. I did think the Brewers would be strong, but they may need anther year before they are a real contender in this division. The Cubs, well, they are the Cubs and won't do much without Lee, Wood, and Prior.

St. Louis Cardinals Runs Scored 2005: 805

Houston Astros Runs Scored 2005: 693

Walker "hobbled" to 300+ ABs of .885 OPS.

The St. Louis lineup regularly featured: Pujols, Edmonds, Walker, Sanders, and an always somewhat underrated Mark Grudz.

Compare that to Houston's middle of the lineup of Berkman (for 5 months), Lane, and Ensberg, and it's no contest who overcame more adversity offensively last season.

MattyHo4Life
04-26-2006, 12:07 PM
Walker "hobbled" to 300+ ABs of .885 OPS.

Oh Walker was great early on in the season. It was in the second half where he was really hurting. He missed almost all of August, and started in less than half of the games in September. He did well when he played, he just couldn't play very often even though I don't remember him being on the DL at all. He was just on the bench most of the second half while So Taguchi and John Rodriguez played instead.

MattyHo4Life
04-26-2006, 12:08 PM
St. Louis Cardinals Runs Scored 2005: 805

Houston Astros Runs Scored 2005: 693

Who do you think will score more runs this year? The Cards or Astros?

Falls City Beer
04-26-2006, 12:09 PM
Who do you think will score more runs this year? The Cards or Astros?

It's going to be tough. Though if Edmonds gets 500 ABs, the Cards, no doubt.

MattyHo4Life
04-26-2006, 12:11 PM
It's going to be tough. Though if Edmonds gets 500 ABs, the Cards, no doubt.

Even without Sanders, Walker, and Grudz? Don't get me wrong...I agree with you. The Cardinal offense has just been underestimated a lot lately.

GullyFoyle
04-26-2006, 12:23 PM
If the SOS includes games played by the Reds, wouldn't you expect that the teams with the best records would have played against the weakest opponents? For example, since we are 14-7, the teams we have played against have gone 7-14 against us, thereby looking worse than they really are. If a 14-7 team schedule is compared against a 7-14 team, and both have played the exact same schedule, the 14-7 team will look like it's played the easier schedule because they played the 7-14 team and the 7-14 team played the 14-7 team.

To get a true pitcher of your opponents, games involving the Reds shouildn't count ie you should determine the Reds opponents records without reference to the games against the Reds.

Just so everyone knows, this is what ESPN says about their Strength Of Schedule stat:


The basic formula is 25% team winning percentage, 50% opponents' average winning percentage, and 25% opponents' opponents' average winning percentage

I'll wait until I'm fully awake (west coast here) before picking the stat apart... but how does everyone else see it...Legit?

Astrobuddy
04-26-2006, 11:32 PM
If Edmonds and Rolen continue to be bad and very average the Cards wont score more runs than many teams, let alone the Astros.

Pujols is God and everything, but he cant and wont do it by himself. In fact the inept Cards offense will cost him another MVP. He just wont have the stats.

I understand that Matty is just sitting back waiting on the Astros to fall apart and the Cards to explode, but alas, I think he is going to have a long wait.


BUT... At what point will Matty concede he was wrong about the Astros? Thats my question.

IslandRed
04-26-2006, 11:44 PM
At what point will Matty concede he was wrong about the Astros? Thats my question.

The end of the season?

A lot of folks prematurely called the demise of the Astros the last two years, and we're talking about June and July. Turnarounds can go the other way, too. It'll be a long time before anyone should concede anything about the NL Central. Except that the Pirates are pretty bad and the Reds give up too many runs. Those are pretty safe guesses.

Astrobuddy
04-26-2006, 11:51 PM
I agree with you.

My point about the Cards is I think they are as good as they will be. Matty seem to think they are going to explode and I dont. He thinks the Astros will cool. I dont.

Pujols will be Pujols

Rolen is hitting about where he should.

Edmonds is just done. He has hit the wall.

Who else do they have?

So even if Edmonds picks it up a notch, that still doesnt make them scary offensivley anymore. All you have to do is not let Pujols beat you and the Cards are a very average team.

MattyHo4Life
04-26-2006, 11:57 PM
I understand that Matty is just sitting back waiting on the Astros to fall apart and the Cards to explode, but alas, I think he is going to have a long wait.


BUT... At what point will Matty concede he was wrong about the Astros? Thats my question.

It isn't going to happen. This little magic show the Astros have pulled off won't last much longer. When the smoke clears, the Astros will wonder how they ended up in 3rd place.

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 12:01 AM
So even if Edmonds picks it up a notch, that still doesnt make them scary offensivley anymore. All you have to do is not let Pujols beat you and the Cards are a very average team.

That isn't possible. Managers are giving Pujols the "Bonds" treatment, and walking him every chance they get. Most Cardinal fans seem to be upset with that, but I couldn't be happier with it. No matter how good a player is, he will still make a lot of outs. Everytime Pujols is walked, that is one less out and an extra guy that is put on base. Pujols will still get his hits, and he'll score more runs, because he will get on base more often. Rolen and Edmonds will get better. I don't expect the Cardinals to have the best offense in the league, but they don't have to with that pitching staff.

Astrobuddy
04-27-2006, 12:17 AM
Matty... the Cards offense is as good as it is going to be. The pitching past Carpenter isnt shutdown. The Astros have the best ERA for starters in MLB at 2.91, playing most of their games at MMP a stadium most think is a bandbox. You think it will go up on the road? The Astros pitching is very very real and gets better when Clemens comes back in a month.

The Astros hitters are also very very real. The Astros have an explosive offense. They get on base, hit for average and power. The test is coming starting this weekend.

See the problem you and most Cards fans have is you are spoiled. The last 2 years the Cards were probably the best team in MLB on paper. The offense was great and the pitching was stellar. The pitching is the same, but the offense past Pujols is average at best. You just expect it. You should. But it aint happening this year.

Sorry man, I like you, but you are in for a disappointment if you expect the Astros to fall. They aint going anywhere. Arent the Dodgers a pretty good team?

Astros just took 2 of 3.2 of 3 from Cinci and will you then admit the Astros may be for real? Who do they have to beat for you to say they are for real? The 1927 Yankees?

MWM
04-27-2006, 12:19 AM
How's the water there in Lake Wobegone, Astrobuddy?

Astrobuddy
04-27-2006, 12:25 AM
On Pujols.. he isnt getting the Bonds treatment by a LONG shot. Half of Pujols hits are homers and he has 21 walks in 70 AB's.

Hell, Jason Lane has 19 walks in 72 AB's.

Ensberg has 18 walks in 73 AB's.

Are they getting the Bonds treatment as well?

Not that much of a difference.


The Pirates should have never pitched to him today by the way. Bonds would have been walked. Hell, the Dodgers walked Ensberg and Berkman to load the bases twice lastnite.

Never let Pujols beat you. There aint nobody behind him. Teams will learn that very soon.

Astrobuddy
04-27-2006, 12:26 AM
Wvm.. Huh?

GullyFoyle
04-27-2006, 01:00 AM
It's still early but so far the Astros haven't demonstrated much of anything...

Their Run Diff. is lower than the Cards and only 5 more than Reds despite playing the easiest schedule in the bigs.

I'm not saying they can't be good, I'm just not impressed by their record to date (unlike some commentators who don't bother to look at who they have played)..

I'm looking forward to the seeing what's what after everyone makes the rounds of the division.

Astrobuddy
04-27-2006, 01:13 AM
Gully, you mean the Astros havent shown much except the best record in the NL, The MLB leading ERA with the most dominant starting pitching and the # 2 offense in the NL? That kind of nothing?

Now run differential. Another in a long line of Bill James stats explaining who won and why they shouldnt have.

2.91 ERA is good against anyone.

Dismiss them if you wish.

GullyFoyle
04-27-2006, 01:14 AM
Now run differential. Another in a long line of Bill James stats explaining who won and why they shouldnt have.

2.91 ERA is good against anyone.

Dismiss them if you wish.

Done.

ERA :p:

Astrobuddy
04-27-2006, 01:17 AM
OK

:laugh:

GullyFoyle
04-27-2006, 01:20 AM
Hey Astro,

In case I'm reading it wrong (which happens), how do you get 2.91 for Houston?

ESPN has a different team ERA, and both the CUBS and CARDINALS have better than the Astros...

Edit: 3.97 to be exact...

Astrobuddy
04-27-2006, 08:23 AM
Team ERA is also different from Starters ERA.

Go to splits and see "as starter". Its actually lower after lastnite at 2.89.

Thats pretty damned good.

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 08:56 AM
Team ERA is also different from Starters ERA.

Go to splits and see "as starter". Its actually lower after lastnite at 2.89.

Thats pretty damned good.

So you admit that the Cardinals have a better bullpen since it's the relievers that bring the Cardinals ERA lower than the Astros? Hmmm...intersting.

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 08:59 AM
Now run differential. Another in a long line of Bill James stats explaining who won and why they shouldnt have.

That isn't what that stat does at all. You have to admit that the Astros haven't played the toughest teams so far this season. The Cubs, Cardinals, and Reds are all right up there with the Astros in records, and they have beaten each other up this season. The Astros will play those same teams, but so far they have had it easy.

Astrobuddy
04-27-2006, 09:00 AM
I think the Astros and Cards both have closer problems, but yes, right now the Cards bullpen is better. That actually isnt hard. The Astros bullpen is not very good at this point.

The Astros bullpen gives me pause, but it is a easier thing to fix than an entire offense.

Astrobuddy
04-27-2006, 09:16 AM
Winning is winning. I dont care who you play. If it is just the 1st 6 games maybe you can say its a small sample, but when it is 21 games and the Astros have yet to lose a series you cant just say, well, when. You dont even give the Astros credit for being a good team. At least I am saying the Cards are a good team, just not as good as the last 2 years.

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 09:19 AM
Winning is winning. I dont care who you play. If it is just the 1st 6 games maybe you can say its a small sample, but when it is 21 games and the Astros have yet to lose a series you cant just say, well, when. You dont even give the Astros credit for being a good team. At least I am saying the Cards are a good team, just not as good as the last 2 years.

I'm not saying they are a bad team, I'm just saying that they will finish in 3rd place. You have to be good to finish that high in this division this year. The Cards were swept by the Cubs...with Derek Lee in the line-up so you can't say it wasn't a difficult series. What is the Astros record against the Cubs this season?

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 09:23 AM
Winning is winning. I dont care who you play.

I'm not saying that at all. Right now, the Astros are the best team in the Central because they have the best record. All I'm saying is that they haven't beaten the teams that they need to beat yet so they may not be in 1st place for long. This weekend will tell a lot, because the Reds will be a strong team in the division this year. If the Astros are still in 1st place after playing the Reds, Cardinals, an Brewers, then I will admit that they are the team to beat.

Astrobuddy
04-27-2006, 09:33 AM
The Astros have already taken 2 of 3 from the Brewers. The Reds Brewers again and the Cardinals are next.


You know as well as I do that the Astros havent played the Cubs yet. But you cant judge a Cards or Cubs season based on what they do to each other. The Cubs have owned the Cards the last season or so worth of games. I dont count that. The Cards are a better team than the Cubs.

If the Astros stay away from injuries to the key players, there is NO WAY they finish 3rd.

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 09:41 AM
The Cubs have owned the Cards the last season or so worth of games. I dont count that. The Cards are a better team than the Cubs.

If the Astros stay away from injuries to the key players, there is NO WAY they finish 3rd.

Exactly, and the Cards would be in 1st place if they had taken that series from the Cubs.

Astrobuddy
04-27-2006, 09:45 AM
... and the Astros would have a 7 game lead already if the bullpen had held the leads.

Whats your point?

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 09:56 AM
The Cubs have owned the Cards the last season or so worth of games. I dont count that.

That is my point. You are the one that said it...not me. :)

OnBaseMachine
04-27-2006, 10:04 AM
I'm waiting for the Brewers, Cubs, and Pirates fan to jump into this discussion.

Astrobuddy
04-27-2006, 10:07 AM
Matty, a sweep is a sweep.

I still fail to see your point.

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 10:18 AM
I'm waiting for the Brewers, Cubs, and Pirates fan to jump into this discussion.

I don't think there are any on this board.

OnBaseMachine
04-27-2006, 10:25 AM
I don't think there are any on this board.

We had a Brewer fan on here last week during the Reds/Brewers series. I have yet to see a Pirates fan on here and I'm not too sure about the Cubs - if there is one on here then they don't post often.

I was making a little joke(obviously not funny).;)

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 10:32 AM
I was making a little joke(obviously not funny).;)

Nope...not funny! :D

Jpup
04-27-2006, 10:51 AM
I find it ironic that you guys are on a Reds' board arguing about the stinkin' Astros and Cardinals. :help:

gO rEDz! :cool:

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 10:54 AM
I find it ironic that you guys are on a Reds' board arguing about the stinkin' Astros and Cardinals. :help:

gO rEDz! :cool:

The thread is about the Astros, and I was just voicing my opinion about them just like everybody else on this board.

Jpup
04-27-2006, 10:59 AM
The thread is about the Astros, and I was just voicing my opinion about them just like everybody else on this board.

it was a light hearted comment, relax. :thumbup:

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 11:09 AM
Good, because I'm rooting for the Reds just like you are.

Jpup
04-27-2006, 11:26 AM
Good, because I'm rooting for the Reds just like you are.

probably not just like me, but I see your point. :)

seriously though, how can you be a Cardinals and a Reds fan? I seriously have always wondered that.

I also know some people that are Colts fans as well as Titans fans, how is that? I don't understand it.

RBA
04-27-2006, 11:31 AM
probably not just like me, but I see your point. :)

seriously though, how can you be a Cardinals and a Reds fan? I seriously have always wondered that.

I also know some people that are Colts fans as well as Titans fans, how is that? I don't understand it.


It's called hedging your bets. ;) Pete Rose would understand.

MattyHo4Life
04-27-2006, 11:57 AM
probably not just like me, but I see your point. :)

seriously though, how can you be a Cardinals and a Reds fan? I seriously have always wondered that.

For me, it's because I was raised as a Reds fan. My father is a die hard Reds fan, and his favorite players are Pete Rose and Eric Davis. Heck...my first favorite player was Kal Daniels. I had a million of his baseball cards when I was a kid, and went to meet him everytime he was within a few hours of my house. I have always loved baseball, and the Reds were my first favorite team. I moved to St. Louis about 10 years ago, and started to like the Cardinals. There were a lot of things that I didn't like about the Reds...such as their ownership and the "small market" excuses they always made to their fans. I grew up as a Reds fan, but I began liking the Cardinals a lot more. The Reds will always be my second favorite team though. I guess you could say that I was raised a Reds fan, but became a Cardinals fan after I grew up. :evil: