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View Full Version : 10 Reasons Why David Ross Will Stay



Guacarock
04-26-2006, 05:17 AM
But won't remain forever as our third-string catcher.

1. Reds hurlers have a cumulative 4.95 ERA with Ross catching vs. 5.37 ERA with Valentin and 6.58 ERA with Larue so far this season.

2. Ross has a career 7.53 range factor vs. 6.84 for Larue and 6.86 for Valentin.

3. Ross has posted a .376 caught stealing percentage, right up there with Larue's .393 and Valentin's .332.

4. Ross has allowed 12 passed balls in 1,156 innings played, a trend surpassing Larue's 65 passed balls in 5,078 innings and roughly comparable with Valentin's 19 passed balls in 2,297 innings.

5. The Reds are 5-2 in games Ross has started this season vs. 6-4 in Valentin's starts and 3-1 in Larue's.

6. Ross is 29, a year younger than Valentin, three years younger than Larue.

7. Ross has performed at the plate, as well as behind the plate. He has two homeruns and 4 RBI vs. no homeruns and 2 RBI for Valentin and Larue combined. His .OBP is higher as well, with a comfortable .261 BA and three walks in 26 plate appearances vs. Valentin's .261 BA and two walks in 48.

8. He earns less than half of Valentin's salary, about one-eighth of Larue's.

9. He's a Krivsky acquisition -- another link in the new GM's master strategy to shore up the Reds' woeful defense without costing the team an arm and a leg, preferably making it possible to obtain some arms while not compromising the Reds' vaunted offense.

10. Having both David Ross and Cody Ross on the Ross-ter should fuel some fan interest. Are these guys Siamese twins, even though one's from Georgia and the other from New Mexico? Could our future be looking any Ross-ier? Somehow or another, Pete Ros(s) ought to approve. Scrappy.

REDREAD
04-26-2006, 08:16 AM
I agree with you. I think David Ross is here for a couple years at least. I'm not sure if it's LaRue or Valentine that will get moved, but I expect something to happen before next season, if Ross can play respectable enough to be a second string catcher (which he probably can).

Hatteberg was picked up to free up Wily Mo for Trade. I imagine Ross was picked up to give the Reds options to trade LaRue or Valentin.

BuckWoody
04-26-2006, 08:23 AM
How much longer will the Reds carry three catchers? You have to think that they have something in the works now involving one of them. I'd think that LaRue would bring the most in a trade and given his salary would be the most likely to move. A Ross and Valentin combo behind the plate would work for me if we can get some bullpen help.

The next few weeks should be interesting.

cumberlandreds
04-26-2006, 08:27 AM
I really believe LaRue will be one to be traded. He has more value than Valentin and is a proven everyday starting catcher. He should bring a decent, although not a number one, starter in return.

2001MUgrad
04-26-2006, 08:35 AM
I honestly feel like Ross is gone with Griffey comes back. Either that, or they have a trade worked out for Valentin or Larue. I can't imagine them picking up that Ross from LAD for a PTBNL only to give him up via waivers a week later. Thats why I feel like the days of 3 catchers is over. Unless they are going to send a pitcher packing, which I can't see as long as Williams is on this staff you are subject to have at least 1 game out of every 5 that your BP will have to work 5 innings or more.

HalMorrisRules
04-26-2006, 08:36 AM
You might have missed the most important reason. He seems to be turning into Arroyo's personal catcher. I had noticed that he had been catching Arroyo but didnt know if it was intentional or if that was just how the playing time worked out but Monday night Marty was mentioning that all 3 catchers would start a game in the Nationals series and he said something like "and of course Ross will catch on Wednesday when Arroyo pithces." I am all for keeping Arroyo in rythym and if Ross helps him do that, then keep doing it.

BuckWoody
04-26-2006, 09:01 AM
You might have missed the most important reason. He seems to be turning into Arroyo's personal catcher. I had noticed that he had been catching Arroyo but didnt know if it was intentional or if that was just how the playing time worked out but Monday night Marty was mentioning that all 3 catchers would start a game in the Nationals series and he said something like "and of course Ross will catch on Wednesday when Arroyo pithces." I am all for keeping Arroyo in rythym and if Ross helps him do that, then keep doing it.
Ross speaks dude so it's easier for them to communicate. :)

remdog
04-26-2006, 09:04 AM
You might have missed the most important reason. He seems to be turning into Arroyo's personal catcher. I had noticed that he had been catching Arroyo but didnt know if it was intentional or if that was just how the playing time worked out but Monday night Marty was mentioning that all 3 catchers would start a game in the Nationals series and he said something like "and of course Ross will catch on Wednesday when Arroyo pithces." I am all for keeping Arroyo in rythym and if Ross helps him do that, then keep doing it.

Sorry, but carrying someone to be a 'personal catcher' for a particular pitcher is not 'the most important reason'. It might be the silliest, however.

If Arroyo (or anyone else for that matter) can't pitch to whoever is behind the plate then they have a serious problem.

As for three catchers, as long as the Reds have Hattaberg on the team (who came up as a catcher) they don't really need the depth. Ross has been cut loose before ----he's not exacatly Johnny Bench. Valentin had a career year last year but can he repeat it at his age? LaRue is proven but getting up in years. Trade one if it will get you a 'plus' player to fill a hole but I wouldn't mind moving Hattaberg if it means moving Dunn to first and keeping Freel in the lineup. That basically moves Valentine into the backup first baseman slot and allows him to come off the bench to switch-hit in later innings.

Rem

Dunner44
04-26-2006, 09:36 AM
I would very much like to see Ross stay. He has shown good defense behind the plate, and has handled pitchers very well. While it may be silly for him to be Bronson's personal catcher, I DO want Bronson to have someone he is comfortable with. Bronson made a comment when LaRue caught him that he waved off LaRue a whole lot, and it was something he tended to do. IF Ross has a good rapport with BA then let him catch him so BA doesn't have to spend an hour waving off pitches. And let Ross catch BC.... I think it might help him a little if Ross is calling the game for him, I like how Ross works.

HalMorrisRules
04-26-2006, 10:48 AM
Sorry, but carrying someone to be a 'personal catcher' for a particular pitcher is not 'the most important reason'. It might be the silliest, however.

If Arroyo (or anyone else for that matter) can't pitch to whoever is behind the plate then they have a serious problem.

Sorry, but as of right now, Arroyo is our steadiest pitcher and I clearly remember when he got traded that he said he needs to feel in sync with a catcher like he had been with Varitek and he needed that connection to feel comfortable. If he has started developing something along those lines with Ross I would hardly call it silly.

dfs
04-26-2006, 11:40 AM
As for three catchers, as long as the Reds have Hattaberg on the team (who came up as a catcher) they don't really need the depth.
This is one of those ideas you see on the internet like Matt Belisle as a starter. It makes sense, but I've never heard anyone from the reds talk along those lines. AFAI can tell, Hatteberg has as much chance of catching for the reds this year as I do.


Valentin had a career year last year but can he repeat it at his age? That basically moves Valentine into the backup first baseman slot and allows him to come off the bench to switch-hit in later innings.

As to Valentin repeating last year's performance, he's 29 so it isn't a matter of age, but a question of if he hit in luck last year or if that's the real level of his ability. I don't know.

FWIW while nominally a switch hitter Valentin hits like a pitcher against lefties and should never go to the plate against one if the game is in doubt.

If that is his real level of ability, it shouldn't be that hard to find a platoon mate who can punish lefties a bit.

After watching him the last five years, my opinion of Jason LaRue agrees with what Arroyo saw this spring. I would rather have somebody else behind the plate.

CTA513
04-26-2006, 12:55 PM
According to Narron:

Ross is catching Arroyo, Valentin will catch Ramirez and LaRue will catch the other 3 starters.

Reds Nd2
04-26-2006, 12:59 PM
Narron just said on the pre-game show that as long as Ramirez is up here that Valentin will be the one catching him, Ross is doing a great job catching Arroyo, and LaRue will get the other three.

Reds Nd2
04-26-2006, 01:01 PM
And obviously I type too slow.

remdog
04-26-2006, 03:14 PM
Sorry, but as of right now, Arroyo is our steadiest pitcher and I clearly remember when he got traded that he said he needs to feel in sync with a catcher like he had been with Varitek and he needed that connection to feel comfortable. If he has started developing something along those lines with Ross I would hardly call it silly.

Would you prefer that I call you silly? :p: How many games has he pitched to LaRue? How does he develop a 'connection' if he doesn't try pitching to each catcher? One of these three catchers is likely to be gone by the end of the season. What if the one is Ross? Do we send Arroyo in the deal as well because now he can't pitch because he lost his 'connection'?

And that was the point of the post----one of these three guys is likely to be gone---and I can see reasons why to keep each of them as well as reasons to jettison each of them. But to keep someone as a 'personal catcher' on a team with as many needs as the Reds is well, you're right, it isn't silly, it's stupid.

Rem

remdog
04-26-2006, 03:20 PM
This is one of those ideas you see on the internet like Matt Belisle as a starter. It makes sense, but I've never heard anyone from the reds talk along those lines. AFAI can tell, Hatteberg has as much chance of catching for the reds this year as I do.

Actually, when Hatteberg was acquired it was mentioned that he could fill the role as the emergency catcher should one be needed. (Ryan Freel formerly filled that role.) That is what I was referring to---not Hatteberg as a third catcher.

The point here is that the Reds have greater needs than three catchers. If it takes moving a catcher in a deal to make the team better they can do it and still have experienced backup coverage.

Rem

REDREAD
04-26-2006, 03:53 PM
I'm not saying it's a good idea to carry 3 catchers, but on a rebuilding team like the Reds, it's not necessarily a sin. The Reds need to be in a talent collecting/evaluating mode. Maybe Ross isn't part of this team moving forward, but I wouldn't get upset if they carried him all year to find out.
It's not as if Ross is preventing a good prospect in AAA from getting a callup.

dfs
04-26-2006, 04:34 PM
If they said that then I apologize Remdog. I've really never heard anybody from the organization say anything like that. It's quite possible that I just slept through the newspaper that day. I still suspect they would send Freel back there just to see if he would do it (he would)

redsfanmia
04-26-2006, 04:47 PM
I think Ross is a better option behind the plate than LaRue, I said at the time of the signing of LaRue that the Reds would regret it and I think they do now. If the new regime was in charge at the time of the LaRue contract signing he would already be elswhere.

Redeye fly
04-26-2006, 06:54 PM
Sorry, but carrying someone to be a 'personal catcher' for a particular pitcher is not 'the most important reason'. It might be the silliest, however.

If Arroyo (or anyone else for that matter) can't pitch to whoever is behind the plate then they have a serious problem.

I guess Greg Maddux had a serious problem in Atlanta then when he always had Eddie Perez catching him instead of Javy Lopez.

BigRed
04-26-2006, 07:03 PM
As long as Arroyo continues to pitch like he did today, he should get whatever he wants. Ross also homered today. I think he definitely stays.

remdog
04-26-2006, 07:04 PM
I guess Greg Maddux had a serious problem in Atlanta then when he always had Eddie Perez catching him instead of Javy Lopez.

So you really think that pitching to Perez instead of Lopez was why Maddux was successful? Seems to be pretty successful to whoever he pitched to since then.

Rem

KronoRed
04-26-2006, 07:16 PM
I guess Greg Maddux had a serious problem in Atlanta then when he always had Eddie Perez catching him instead of Javy Lopez.
He was also the backup catcher, carrying a 3rd guy just for 1 pitcher is the foolish part.

Mitri
04-26-2006, 07:21 PM
You'd have to guess LaRue will be the one to go. I'm thinking we'll be saying goodbye to Jason very soon.

What's a realistic return for a LaRue/Freel (or possibly even Kearns) package the Reds could be looking at?

Redeye fly
04-26-2006, 07:27 PM
So you really think that pitching to Perez instead of Lopez was why Maddux was successful? Seems to be pretty successful to whoever he pitched to since then.

Rem
No I don't think that. But it does seem to me that Maddux has often had his own personal catcher. I believe after Perez was no longer a Brave, Maddux then had guys like Paul Bako and Henry Blanco catching him, players who otherwise would have no business being in the lineup since they were complete offensive liabilities. It was rare to actually see Lopez catching Maddux.

Lots of pitchers all around baseball through the years have or had one catcher who was "their catcher". Some people may find it silly, but I have a theory that pitchers are a little silly or odd themselves- kind of like kickers. Regardless, my point with Maddux is that while he certainly would have still had success with Lopez catching him, apparentlyhe felt more comfortable with someone other than Lopez behind the plate, and the Braves certainly weren't going to mess with that when he was the best pitcher in the league. The relationship between pitcher and catcher is extremely important, and if they're not totally comfortable with each other, then hopefully you get good use out of your bats and put some runs on the board that day.

Redeye fly
04-26-2006, 07:30 PM
He was also the backup catcher, carrying a 3rd guy just for 1 pitcher is the foolish part.

Well there you may have a point. My point of contention was with remdog's (seeming)assertion that it's silly for any pitcher to have their own personal catcher.

pedro
04-26-2006, 07:33 PM
Interesting thing about the lifetime passed ball ratios is that I don't think they have much to do with actual overall fielding talent at catcher. Valentin's passed ball rate is much better than either Larue's or Ross' but he is the worse defensive catcher of the three IMO.

Valentin 1/120 innings
Ross 1/95 Innings
Larue 1/78 innings

redsfanmia
04-26-2006, 07:44 PM
I think that Ross is the best defensively of the three and hopefully he will stay around with LaRue and that big contract going bye bye.

4256 Hits
04-26-2006, 09:55 PM
One thing is for sure is that the Reds are paying to much money to Valentin to only play 1 every 5 games and to much money to be playing Larue only 3 out of 5 games. I think the best mix for 2 catchers when one is better (Larue) w/ a good back-up (Valentin) is Larue playing 70-75 with the other 25 to 30 going to Valentin.

Overall it make no sense to have 3 catcher on a roster especially when the team has 12 pitchers.

jnwohio
04-26-2006, 11:50 PM
The catching problem as I see it is that the the one who would be odd man out in the opinion of the manager and current GM was given a 2 year $9million contract by the former GM.

I think they would be happy to go with 2 catchers if the two were Ross and Valentin. Narron is always very carefull with LaRue's ego and reputation when he speaks of him but his actions say differently. Narron was the man who opened the door for Valentin to become option #1A instead of #2 last year and now it seems he also prefers to have Ross behind the plate instead of LaRue. Maybe someday his reasoning will become publically known and then we can debate it.

Guacarock
04-27-2006, 04:39 AM
All of the indicators point to a likely trade of Larue.

At this stage, it's questionable if David Ross can replace Jason day-in and day-out, on a sustained basis, for a full season. But Ross has demonstrated he can be productive in a supporting role, providing plus defense with some power and promise on offense.

If you ask me, he's a more logical tango partner with Valentin than with Larue. It's not only a matter of salaries and the lefty-righty thing, but also a question of competitive balance. If Valentin and Ross are our catchers, Narron can use them as he sees fit, and mix and match them to play the odds, going with the hot hand on occasion.

But with Larue entering into the equation, you get more distractions -- seniority, salary, pecking order possibly overriding the manager's flexibility to call the shots as he sees them. Also, Ross looks more like an underrated carbon copy of Larue than Valentin.

Larue isn't dead wood. He's a proven veteran, who has worked hard and clearly earned his status as the Reds' reigning No. 1 catcher. But if he can be dealt to shore up our pitching or snag us a 1B prospect like Ryan Shealy, we shouldn't be surprised or cringe if Krivsky pulls the trigger on a trade.

Arroyo is making less than Larue this season. If we can acquire one more starting pitcher of Arroyo's caliber, we stand a good chance of continuing to challenge for the NL Central crown come July. That's saying a lot, considering the fierce level of competition in our division.

I'd miss Larue. He's not Johnny Bench, but he's as dependable and dynamic a player as our system has produced over the past decade. But if he has to go to transform us from doormat to contender status, then so be it.

The tandem of Valentin and Ross may or may not achieve what Larue can accomplish singlehandedly, but they don't look too shabby. I doubt they would be an embarrassment. They might actually be a pleasant surprise. Regardless, if our pitching gets racheted up a notch so it's closer to being on par with our offense, we're better off in the short and long term.

Ron Madden
04-27-2006, 05:08 AM
Please, look at the production of all other catchers in the Big Leagues.

Compare thier stats and thier contracts to Jason LaRue.

Ya still think LaRue is over paid?


LaRue is a bargin IMO.

TeamBoone
04-27-2006, 01:23 PM
CATCHER ROTATION: David Ross started Wednesday's game at catcher, making him the third player to catch a game in the three-game series.

Ross has been Arroyo's personal catcher.

"David Ross does a great job of catching," Narron said. "He calls a good game. He receives the ball extremely well. Pitchers like to throw to him. That's not to say they don't like throwing to the other guys."

As long as Elizardo Ramirez is in the rotation, you'll probably see Ross catch Arroyo, Javier Valentin catch Ramirez and Jason LaRue get the bulk of the rest of the time.

"That would probably be a good way to do it," Narron said. "It's not going to be easy to get any of them regular playing time."

Ross got the scoring started with an upper-deck home run in the third. It was his third homer of the year, all having landed in the upper deck.
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060427/SPT04/604270403/1071


THREE FOR ONE - Everybody has a pitching rotation, but the Reds now have what amounts to a catching rotation, too. In an attempt to get regular starts for Jason LaRue, Javier Valentin and David Ross, Narron said the Reds probably will stick with the arrangement they used against the Nationals.

Ross will continue to start when Bronson Arroyo is on the mound, as the two worked well together again Wednesday. And as long as Elizardo Ramirez is in the rotation, Valentin likely will be behind the plate for his starts. That leaves LaRue to catch Aaron Harang, Brandon Claussen and Williams.

"That would probably be a pretty good plan," manager Jerry Narron said. "It's not going to be easy getting regular playing time for any of the three."
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060427/SPT05/604270320/1027