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WVRed
04-28-2006, 08:59 PM
Didn't see this one coming. With the Saints pretty much set at RB, im betting teams are going to be licking their chops to trade up. San Fran, im looking at you.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2425818


Even as Houston Texans officials continued to insist they have made no decision about the first selection in the draft, there were strong indications Friday afternoon that the team has redirected its focus to North Carolina State defensive end Mario Williams.

Texans executives were in substantive negotiations with Ben Dogra, the representative for Williams, throughout the day. Conversely, ESPN.com learned that the agent for Southern California tailback and Heisman Trophy winner Reggie Bush had not heard from the Texans, as of late Friday afternoon, in more than 24 hours.

The two sides spoke twice Thursday, but only briefly and made no progress toward an accord. During the week, progress was incremental and one person close to the discussions termed them "a little bit like being in quicksand."

In addition, league sources told ESPN.com that, in terms of guaranteed money, the latest offer made to Williams exceeds the best proposal made to Bush.

Minus any conversations with the Bush camp since Thursday, there seemed little chance the Texans could strike a pre-draft accord with the draft's highest-profile performer even if they were to jump-start the negotiations on Friday evening.

Texans general manager Charley Casserly had cautioned earlier in the week that anyone concluding the team had decided on Bush and was only using Williams as leverage was mistaken. He reiterated that the Texans were serious about both players, negotiating with both agents, and that one of the two would be the top pick.

Dogra, however, was originally reluctant to enter into negotiations because he felt that his client might be used to force Bush into a deal. Clearly, the Texans convinced him that was not the case.

Were the Texans to choose Williams, it would mark the first time since 2000 that a defensive player was the first prospect off the board. The Cleveland Browns chose defensive Courtney Brown with the first pick that year.

The choice of Williams by the Texans could also dramatically alter the landscape of the early segment of the first round. The New Orleans Saints, with the second choice, have indicated they would snap up Bush if he fell to their slot. But the Saints had hinted, in general, that they might entertain trade offers for their pick.

The availability of Bush at the No. 2 spot would almost certainly elicit trade offers.

WMR
04-28-2006, 09:02 PM
I wish the Bengals could find some way to trade up for Michael Huff.

I love that guy's game.

savafan
04-28-2006, 09:02 PM
That's just crazy. When you have the chance to get a Reggie Bush, you get him. This is why the Texans are a bad football team.

KronoRed
04-28-2006, 09:03 PM
I dunno, I think Bush was a great college player, I worry his game wouldn't work as well in the NFL, especially without a strong line in front of him.

Outshined_One
04-28-2006, 09:16 PM
While Bush gets a ton of hype, I think it is merited. His game will likely be more along the lines of Marshall Faulk or Brian Westbrook without the injuries and a better inside game. He might not be a traditional RB, but he does have the ability to be a Pro Bowler at RB.

However, if the rumors are true, I'm guessing Bush's agents are not being flexible with their contract demands. Getting Bush would be a nice addition for the Saints, but pretty much every team in the Top 10 would likely fall over one another to trade up for him at #2. Green Bay or Oakland would not surprise me, in my opinion.

WMR
04-28-2006, 09:23 PM
If he wanted more money than Alex Smith got last year then I sort of understand the Texans reasoning... Conventional Wisdom dictates that you just don't give RBs QB type money.

Mario was probably more reasonable in his contract demands...

I still take Reggie Bush though. Six days a week and 2x on sundays.

Outshined_One
04-28-2006, 09:24 PM
It's official, Mario to Houston:

Link (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2543)

Matt700wlw
04-28-2006, 09:32 PM
If he wanted more money than Alex Smith got last year then I sort of understand the Texans reasoning... Conventional Wisdom dictates that you just don't give RBs QB type money.

Mario was probably more reasonable in his contract demands...

I still take Michael Bush though. Six days a week and 2x on sundays.


I think you mean Reggie Bush :)

WMR
04-28-2006, 10:08 PM
I think you mean Reggie Bush :)

Whoops!! :) :laugh:

BoomerSoonerRed
04-28-2006, 10:48 PM
My gut feeling is that the Saints will trade No. 1 picks with the Jets, and the Jets will grab Bush. Saints will take D'Brickashaw Ferguson, the OL from Virginia, at No. 4. Titans still take a QB at No. 3, but the latest rumblings have Tennessee throwing a curveball and taking the home-college kid, Cutler.

Patrick Bateman
04-28-2006, 11:58 PM
Williams is also an elite prospect. In any year he is a good choice at #1.

The Texans have many, many holes and RB is not one of them. Davis is solid. If the Texans want to improve they need to start with both the offensive and the defensive lines, and this is a very good start. Williams helps the Texans much more than Bush will.

Building a line is the quickest way to jump start rebuilding a football team.

I hear the Texans also want to tarde back up to the 1st round to get one of the other RB's which I don't understand. They have much more glaring holes than RB.

Reds Fanatic
04-29-2006, 12:42 AM
At least 6 teams have already contacted the Saints about trading for the 2nd pick

Reds4Life
04-29-2006, 12:44 AM
That's just crazy. When you have the chance to get a Reggie Bush, you get him. This is why the Texans are a bad football team.

Their GM must be brain dead, if you don't want Bush trade the pick!

MWM
04-29-2006, 12:46 AM
I don't normally take issue with filling holes, but a Reggie Bush like talent comes along so rarely that I think you have to take him. I have a feeling this will wind up being a Bowie over Jordan type of mistake of colossal proportions. Let the bidding war begin for the #2 pick.

KronoRed
04-29-2006, 01:05 AM
Their GM must be brain dead, if you don't want Bush trade the pick!
They probably expected the Saints to take Williams, so they had nowhere to trade.

WMR
04-29-2006, 01:08 AM
They probably expected the Saints to take Williams, so they had nowhere to trade.

Trade down a couple spots and take DaBrickashaw or however you spell his name. David Carr will continue to lead the NFL in times sacked. Ferguson would have been a wonderful pick for them.

EDIT: If you're totally set on selecting someone other than Reggie Bush, which I'd advocate against in the strongest terms.

KronoRed
04-29-2006, 01:11 AM
True, but if they were set on Williams and had a deal with him they really had nowhere to go.

Perhaps it was a money issue, they offered the same deal to all of them and Williams was the only taker

:dunno:

WMR
04-29-2006, 01:16 AM
True, but if they were set on Williams and had a deal with him they really had nowhere to go.

Perhaps it was a money issue, they offered the same deal to all of them and Williams was the only taker

:dunno:

LOL maybe we're overanalyzing it... they are the Texans after all. ;)

WMR
04-29-2006, 01:17 AM
Is Astrobuddy a Texan fan? I heard they might be trading for Carson Palmer? ;)

KronoRed
04-29-2006, 01:17 AM
True

More like

Eenie, Meenie, Minie, Moe

:evil:

savafan
04-29-2006, 01:24 AM
I hear the Texans also want to tarde back up to the 1st round to get one of the other RB's which I don't understand.

Tarde back up is a good way to put it. :D

Dom Heffner
04-29-2006, 01:44 AM
Williams helps the Texans much more than Bush will.


The Bengals had Harold Green so there was no need to take Marshall Faulk. Dan Wilkinson could anchor the line for years...lol

When you have a shot at a Reggie Bush, you take it. You don't go filling holes with guys who might be great or might not or whose agent is easy to deal with. They come along so few and far between, that you just do it. Or at least trade the pick for a mountain of picks.

No one will fault them if Bush is a flop, but everyone will if Mario is.

ochre
04-29-2006, 02:41 AM
Wilkinson wasn't that bad of a pick. He was viewed as a pretty good pick at the time. Don't forget, if they hadn't picked Wilkinson, they would have never gotten Brian Simmons.

jmcclain19
04-29-2006, 03:27 AM
Mark it down. Reggie Bush will be a good, but certainly not great NFL running back.

Playing against a sub-NFL team, probably the best D he played against in the Rose Bowl he had a above average game - but what will he do when he has to play against defenses with strength and speed every week? He'll be an above average starter, don't get me wrong, but all this "next superstar" talk is above and beyond what he'll be. IMO anyway.

RedsBaron
04-29-2006, 08:45 AM
I'd guess that Texans' QB David Carr feels sick this morning.

Sabo Fan
04-29-2006, 10:51 AM
I'd guess that Texans' QB David Carr feels sick this morning.

Not as sick as he'll feel the first game of the season when he's being knocked around by the opposing defense because he has no line. Ferguson was the best pick they could make and they've gone and blown it.

Dom Heffner
04-29-2006, 12:04 PM
Wilkinson wasn't that bad of a pick. He was viewed as a pretty good pick at the time. Don't forget, if they hadn't picked Wilkinson, they would have never gotten Brian Simmons.


I'd consider Wilkinson a bust in terms of where he went in the draft. If the Bengals got what they expected out of him, they definitely should have taken Faulk.

I agree that Simmons has turned out great, but they still should have taken Faulk over Wilkinson. It's the better pick in both foresight and hindsight.

GAC
04-29-2006, 12:36 PM
Looking at the Texans defense, an especially their pass rush defense.... going after Mario does fill a very dire need.

OnBaseMachine
04-29-2006, 01:37 PM
Titans draft Akili Smith with the 3rd overall pick.

CTA513
04-29-2006, 01:40 PM
Titans draft Akili Smith with the 3rd overall pick.


:thumbup:

:laugh:

creek14
04-29-2006, 01:56 PM
Leinhart looks like he's gonna cry as each pick is announced and it isn't him.

Reds Fanatic
04-29-2006, 02:02 PM
Leinhart looks like he's gonna cry as each pick is announced and it isn't him.They now think Leinart could fall as far as the 10th pick.

KronoRed
04-29-2006, 03:43 PM
A moment of silence for Leinhart, now stuck in the siberia of the NFL.

I think Young could be pretty good, he reminds me of a young McNair

pedro
04-29-2006, 04:05 PM
Wow, one moment you think you're going have a career in the NFL and then the next moment you're an Arizona Cardinal.

WVRed
04-29-2006, 04:46 PM
Wow, one moment you think you're going have a career in the NFL and then the next moment you're an Arizona Cardinal.

Who will probably become the Cincinnati Bengals as early as next year.

Edgerrin James at RB, Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald at WR, a USC QB at the helm.

Let the Carson Palmer comparisons begin.

pedro
04-29-2006, 04:48 PM
Who will probably become the Cincinnati Bengals as early as next year.

Edgerrin James at RB, Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald at WR, a USC QB at the helm.

Let the Carson Palmer comparisons begin.


I'll believe it when it happens. 50 solid years of suckitude has me sceptical.

KronoRed
04-29-2006, 04:49 PM
Who will probably become the Cincinnati Bengals as early as next year.

Edgerrin James at RB, Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald at WR, a USC QB at the helm.

Let the Carson Palmer comparisons begin.
Nice O spread, but it's all about the lines.

WVRed
04-29-2006, 05:00 PM
Bengals on the clock. My guy says Jimmy Williams, but my heart says Thomas Howard.

KronoRed
04-29-2006, 05:08 PM
What part said that guy? :D

WVRed
04-29-2006, 05:09 PM
Jonathan Joseph(CB-South Carolina)

Not a bad pick, I still wanted Thomas Howard though.:(

WMR
04-29-2006, 05:17 PM
Who will probably become the Cincinnati Bengals as early as next year.

Edgerrin James at RB, Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald at WR, a USC QB at the helm.

Let the Carson Palmer comparisons begin.

Except Leinart has a water pistol compared to Carson.

WMR
04-29-2006, 05:19 PM
So what does everyone think about this pick for the Bengals?

Analysis please!

From what ESPN said, it sounds like the kid is a major project with major upside...

WVRed
04-29-2006, 05:21 PM
Steelers have traded for the 25th pick, and they have taken Santonio Holmes.

CTA513
04-29-2006, 05:22 PM
Steelers have traded for the 25th pick, and they have taken Santonio Holmes.

I hope someone takes Lendal White so they cant get him next round.

nycredsfan
04-29-2006, 05:24 PM
I really like the pick. He should turn into a really solid player and the Bengals have a roster that will allow them to be patient with him. It would be awfully cool to see them team him up with his old teammate Ko Simpson in the second, but he will probably not be around. Here is hoping for Lewis or Pope in the second. Here is the book on Joseph.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2006/joseph_johnathan


Prospect Profiles

Johnathan Joseph
Height: 5-11
Weight: 192
40 Speed: 4.33*
Position: Cornerback
College: South Carolina
Final Grade: I 6.2


GM JR Scouting LLC Grading Scale/Key



SUMMARY
Joseph is a junior who came out early for the 2006 NFL Draft, and while he is no doubt good enough to play in the NFL, he could have helped his draft positioning by staying for another season. He has good size (average height/weight for an NFL cornerback) and long arms for the position, and when he uses hands aggressively, he can slow the receiver's release and can re-route him with physical play. He has shown the hips to turn and run without losing a step on deep routes, can stay right on the receiver's hip and has shown ability to ride and squeeze the receiver to the sideline surprisingly well. The big thing that holds Joseph back is that he uses a side-pedal primarily and gets upright and on his heels too often, which hinders his ability to stay with the receiver out of cuts consistently, allowing slower receivers to catch too many passes against him. Overall, Joseph has the size and physical talent to be a very good starting cornerback who can make big hits and tackles, break up passes and make tough interceptions. However, he is raw and it going to need time to develop his skills to become the consistent cornerback he is capable of -- in time, he will improve his footwork and technique to become that good.

CRITICAL FACTORS
Athletic Ability M/M Off M/M Tight Competes Play Speed Instincts
6.5 5.5 6.0 6.0 6.5 6.0



STRONG POINTS
Joseph is a very good athlete with the foot quickness, agility and explosive burst to plant, drive and close quickly to make plays on the ball and can break up passes or make tough interception's. He can jolt the receiver with a hard punch to slow the release, can re-route the receiver and can squeeze him to the sideline well. He has the hips to turn and run without losing a step and the playing speed to stay with receivers deep down the field. Does a very good job reading the wide receiver screen, closes fast and consistently makes the hard hit/tackle right after catch behind the line of scrimmage. He shows a real willingness to come up and tackle big ball carriers in run support.



WEAKNESSES
Joseph is going to have to become more efficient in his backpedal (will have to really learn a true backpedal) by bending his knees and staying over his feet in order be more consistent staying on the receiver's hip out of cuts. He got turned around too often in off coverage and will need to become much more consistent. He is not consistent using his hands to punch the receiver in press coverage, and when he doesn't, he allows an easy inside release and cannot get back into position to make a play on the ball and allows the catch.



POSITIONAL FACTORS
Grade Category Comments/Description
6.0 Read & React He has the ability to read and react very fast, but will need to become polished in a true backpedal to show it.
5.5 M/M Off Goes into the side-pedal right at the snap and can be turned around by good moves and cannot always recover.
6.0 M/M Tight Very good when he is aggressive with hands, but gets beaten inside too easily when he gets lazy with his hands.
6.0 Zone Coverage He does a good job of reading the pass, breakinig on the ball and closing fast. He can break up or make a play on the ball well.
6.0 Break & Close He has the ability to be very good, but must use the backpedal and play over his feet to be very good all the time.
6.5 Hips/Turn Ability He has very good hips/flexibility and can turn and run without losing a step.
6.0 Tackling He has the size, strength and athleticism to be a good tackler and can be a strong and physical hitter.
6.5 Hands - Interception Joseph has very good hands to make tough interceptions when he gets the chance.
6.0 Hands - Fight Blocker He competes hard to fight through the block to make tackles -- very good at doing so to make the tackle on a quick wide receiver screen.
6.0 Deep Speed He has the playing speed to stay right on the receiver's hip deep down the field.
6.0 Return Ability In games that were graded, he did not return, but he has the hands, athleticism and toughness to be good.
6.0 Errors Nothing glaring, but his use of the side-pedal and tendency to stay high hinders his ability to cover consistently.



ATHLETIC ABILITY Section Grade: 6.5
Joseph is a very good athlete and it has helped him to be a productive cornerback at South Carolina despite some bad technique. He has very quick feet, which help him to accelerate to full speed in a flash and combine with his smooth and fluid hips so that he can turn and run without losing a step in tight man-to-man. His very good agility and balance combine with his quick feet so that he can transition out of the backpedal to close fast on the receiver/pass despite using a side pedal and often getting turned around. He is a naturally explosive athlete and it really shows in his explosive closing ability on quick hitting passes in front of him, especially to make the hard hit right after the receiver catches the screen pass behind the line of scrimmage. He has the body control and coordination to consistently make plays on the ball in pass coverage and can either reach in front to break up the pass without committing the penalty or can cut in front of the receiver to make the tough interception.

Q.A.B. Quick Feet C.O.D. Flexibility Coordination
6.5 6.5 6.5 6.0 6.5



COMPETITIVENESS Section Grade: 6.0
He has definitely shown toughness coming up and making hard hits and tackles, both in run support and on passes in front of him. While his production on important downs is similar to his overall production, he has shown the ability to crank up his intensity and to make big hits or pass breakups/interceptions more often in key spots. His overall production has been good, but it could be better with more consistent footwork and hand-use. Despite physical tools, he has a tendency to allow receivers to get a step of separation out of cuts and has to rely upon his closing burst to get back into good position to break up the pass. They get separation mostly because he uses a side-pedal instead of a true backpedal and tends to get up a little high and back on his heels when he pedals. He has consistently shown a willingness to make strong and physical tackles at or near the line of scrimmage vs. the run and the pass. He is a competitive team player who gives a better effort as a tackler than most cornerbacks and never quits hustling and chasing to get back into position when he does lose a step in coverage.

Toughness Clutch Play Production Consistency Team Player Pride/Quit
6.0 6.5 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0



MENTAL ALERTNESS Section Grade: 6.0
Joseph is a very smart young man who learns football well -- his technique to jolt and slow the receiver in press coverage, front-arm technique to break up passes without committing the penalty and use of his body to cut off and squeeze the receiver between himself and the sideline on deep routes show his smarts. (From film, it looks as though they coach their corners to use the side-pedal so the use of it is not a sign of non-learning ability.) He has good instincts, which help him to react quickly when he is pedaling with his knees bent and in good body position, but when he gets a little upright and back in his pedal, he does not consistently react as quickly as he is capable. While he does not always stay in good pedal position, he generally maintains good focus/concentration, which is what allows him to stay close to most receivers despite using the side-pedal and to consistently be willing to make hard and physical tackles.

Learn/Retain Instincts/Reactions Concentration
6.5 6.0 6.0



STRENGTH/EXPLOSION Section Grade: 6.0
Joseph has good size for an NFL cornerback -- at basically 5-foot-11 and 190 pounds, he has the average height and weight of an NFL corner. With his natural athleticism, flexibility, size and competitiveness, I am confident that Joseph can be a durable NFL cornerback. He is naturally a very explosive athlete that can plant, drive and close on plays explosively when he is playing over his feet and using good technique. For a cornerback, he has shown an explosive hitting/tackling ability that is uncommon. He has good natural strength, but does not always play up to it in coverage -- he seems to get hesitant to play physical vs. big receivers and they are able to push him around and get separation too easily when he does not use his hands aggressively.

Body Type Durability Explosion Play Strength
6.0 6.0 6.5 5.5

WVRed
04-29-2006, 05:26 PM
I hope someone takes Lendal White so they cant get him next round.

He will be gone at least by when Indy picks.

Steelers gave up their first, third, and fourth rounders for Santonio. I hope its worth it.

BuckeyeRed27
04-29-2006, 05:26 PM
Steelers have traded for the 25th pick, and they have taken Santonio Holmes.



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :thumbdown

KronoRed
04-29-2006, 05:27 PM
Steelers gave up their first, third, and fourth rounders for Santonio. I hope its worth it.
Yikes, overpaid IMO.

WMR
04-29-2006, 05:28 PM
Wow very impressive. Sounds like all he needs is to get coached up by Marvin and he'll be on his way.

Reds Fanatic
04-29-2006, 05:36 PM
I like the Joseph pick a lot of people think he would have been better had he stayed in school another year but I think he has the potential to be a good player for the Bengals. I hope the Bengals look for a TE next round.

Patrick Bateman
04-29-2006, 05:39 PM
Marcedes Lewis for Krono. What do you think?

KronoRed
04-29-2006, 05:41 PM
I like it, they need more guys who can catch.

Glad they didn't take Pope.

Reds4Life
04-29-2006, 05:42 PM
Steelers gave up their first, third, and fourth rounders for Santonio. I hope its worth it.

Jeebus! :eek:

Caveat Emperor
04-29-2006, 06:23 PM
Just because I feel the need to vent...

I can't believe what an incompetent pick Tampa Bay made at #23 to take Davin Joseph, G OKLA.

Taking a guard in the first round is like pulling your first round pick card out, burning it, and urinating on the ashes. It's beyond moronic -- and, just to make fans out there extra mad, they made a reach pick and took a guy who probably wouldn't have seen the first round. Now, they added another $3 million dollars to this guy's contract by picking him way out of position.

All this, for a team that already has an unathletic LT that'll need to move to guard eventually and 2 guards returning from last year. And that's not even CONSIDERING that you can get guards from rounds 3-7 that are regularly starting calibur...

I couldn't be more frustrated. Thank God the Reds are winning because the thought of New Orleans adding Reggie Bush, the Falcons adding John Abraham, and the Panthers adding D'Angelo Williams -- all while the Bucs just get another warm body that can't pass block for the line.

Fantastic.

Reds Fanatic
04-29-2006, 08:19 PM
Bengals 2nd round pick:
Andrew Whitworth OT LSU

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2006/whitworth_andrew


Whitworth was a disappointing player to grade, because he has received a ton of accolades at LSU, but after watching film of him, one realizes he is not a top level offensive linemen. He has excellent size for an offensive tackle at nearly 6-foot-7 and 330 pounds, but he is a limited athlete who struggles to move and block well out in space. He can slide well in one direction, but because he plays up high and straight-legged, he struggles to re-direct and slide quickly in the other direction to adjust to quick inside pass-rush moves. He does not punch the defensive end in pass protection, which allows the defensive end to get into his chest, and he gets driven backwards by bull rushers too easily. He lacks the flexibility to bend his knees and block with leverage, which hinders his ability to get movement on in-line run blocks -- he is more of a stand, grab and push run blocker, who relies upon his size and effort to get his man blocked. He can get through to the second level to seal block the linebacker decently, but he struggles to adjust and block well in space. Overall, Whitworth is somewhat of a "tweener," who lacks the athleticism teams want in a tackle, and lacks the playing strength to be effective at guard. Whitworth has the ability to be a very good backup tackle who can spot start at times, but is best suited to be a backup.

nycredsfan
04-29-2006, 08:23 PM
Well, that is a disappointing pick. I would've been happy with Pope, Simpson or Watson.

Reds Fanatic
04-29-2006, 08:25 PM
I was hoping for Pope with that pick.

CTA513
04-29-2006, 08:29 PM
Someone on the offensive line isnt getting re-signed.

pedro
04-29-2006, 08:31 PM
Tennessee got Vince Young and LenDale White.

nycredsfan
04-29-2006, 08:31 PM
I would guess it is Willie that he is replacing. I still don't like the pick though with Pope and so much defensive talent still on the board.

wally post
04-29-2006, 08:52 PM
God - I HATE it when I see a pick and the so-called "experts" say that it should've been a third round pick. On ESPN radio in NY - they said that probably the Bengals would be tqaking Pope - but then .... this.
So... I've gotta believe the real deal is different than the analysts - right?

Reds4Life
04-29-2006, 09:06 PM
Ya, looks like Willie is gone. I still would have taken Pope with that pick. Bah.

WMR
04-29-2006, 09:11 PM
The analysis I read/heard of Whitmore was much more optimistic than that write-up.

ochre
04-29-2006, 09:19 PM
I used to doubt, but now I generally trust Marvin's judgement on these types of things.

Joseph in the first round, my take on that was that he could quite possibly have been a top 10 kind of guy next year had he stayed. The beauty of the Bengals taking him there is that they don't "need" him this year. If he can fill in on special teams and maybe work his way in as the nickel all the better.

Whitworth seems to have similar skills/potential as Willie. I think that the fact they will likely have time to work him into the system is what makes this pick smart too.

WMR
04-29-2006, 09:22 PM
I used to doubt, but now I generally trust Marvin's judgement on these types of things.

Joseph in the first round, my take on that was that he could quite possibly have been a top 10 kind of guy next year had he stayed. The beauty of the Bengals taking him there is that they don't "need" him this year. If he can fill in on special teams and maybe work his way in as the nickel all the better.

Whitworth seems to have similar skills/potential as Willie. I think that the fact they will likely have time to work him into the system is what makes this pick smart too.

I heard Joseph will immediately becoming the starting Nickel. Wonder what that means for Keiwan... #4? Replaced?

Wish we could trade up for Pope... don't see him lasting till the 91st pick.

dsmith421
04-29-2006, 09:27 PM
Terrible draft so far, in my opinion. There were ten players available at 55 who could have helped the Bengals more than Whitworth, who will be a backup this season and do nothing more than cause dissention in the locker room.

WMR
04-29-2006, 09:29 PM
BTW, it's really sad that someone as intelligent and well-spoken as Tom Jackson has to sit there and smile while Michael Irvin rambles on and on and on trying to argue a point and string together an intelligible sentence concerning a point that Jackson wasn't even contending.

WMR
04-29-2006, 09:32 PM
And Leonard Pope is off the board... too bad, I think ya missed one there, Marvin.

Esp. considering how Marvin loves GA guys... I'm a bit confused.

WVRed
04-29-2006, 09:42 PM
Terrible draft so far, in my opinion. There were ten players available at 55 who could have helped the Bengals more than Whitworth, who will be a backup this season and do nothing more than cause dissention in the locker room.

Levi is a FA at the end of the season. I don't particularly care for the pick, but Marvin is good at evaluating talent. I wouldn't declare this a terrible draft just yet.

dsmith421
04-29-2006, 09:48 PM
Levi is a FA at the end of the season. I don't particularly care for the pick, but Marvin is good at evaluating talent. I wouldn't declare this a terrible draft just yet.

I agree, therefore the qualifier 'so far.'

The myth of Coach Lewis' infallibility during the draft is widespread. Chris Perry is an absolute bust of a first round pick--I don't care how you spin it, he has done nothing in two years in the NFL. Keiwan Ratliff is a bust. Matias Askew is a bust. Chris Henry is a talented mess of a human being.

Going in, the Bengals needed safety, defensive line, and tight end help. They have done NOTHING so far on these fronts. Meanwhile, the Ravens, Browns, and Steelers have addressed their weaknesses.

WVRed
04-29-2006, 10:16 PM
I agree, therefore the qualifier 'so far.'

The myth of Coach Lewis' infallibility during the draft is widespread. Chris Perry is an absolute bust of a first round pick--I don't care how you spin it, he has done nothing in two years in the NFL. Keiwan Ratliff is a bust. Matias Askew is a bust. Chris Henry is a talented mess of a human being.

Going in, the Bengals needed safety, defensive line, and tight end help. They have done NOTHING so far on these fronts. Meanwhile, the Ravens, Browns, and Steelers have addressed their weaknesses.

Don't be so sure.

Calling Chris Perry a bust is laughable. I would have said that his rookie season when he stayed injured, but he played a major role last season in the Bengals passing game.

Receiving numbers-

Chad Johnson-97 receptions, 1432 yards, 9 TD's
TJ Houshmanzadeh-78 receptions, 956 yards, 7 TD's
Chris Henry-31 receptions, 422 yards, 6 TD's
Chris Perry-51 receptions, 328 yards, 2 TD's

Perry was tied for fourth in the NFL in receptions by a RB. Lamont Jordan, Brian Westbrook, and Tiki Barber had more receptions. The one Perry was tied with? LaDainian Tomlinson. Not bad company eh?

I know what you are thinking, they are more elite RB's on the ground. That is true, but we have Rudi to run the ball down teams throats. Perry is a complimentary back that can catch the ball out of the backfield and create big plays. Take Perry off last years team and you can subtract one to two wins from our team as well.

Ratliff has been a bust, no argument there. Askew was a second day pick, so I don't really judge the negatives because of the lower expectations. Henry may be a headcase, but so is Odell Thurman and Chad Johnson. We all knew Henry was going to be a risk, but regardless of the headaches, he became an endzone target. IMHO, losing Henry cost us the playoff game more than Palmer, because the Steelers closed down on Chad and TJ, forcing Kitna to throw to Kevin Walter.(You really think Walter is going to beat the Steelers?)

The Bengals needed a cornerback, they got it. Tory James isnt getting any younger, and Joseph can make an impact as early as midseason. They needed depth behind the O-Line, due to aging Willie Anderson and Levi Jones pending free agency.

Baltimore I think may have picked the biggest bust in the draft. Haloti Ngata's job is to clog up tackles to free up Ray Lewis. The problem with that is, 1.He has been accused of taking plays off, and 2.Ray Lewis isnt the player he used to be. I see this picking blowing up in the Ravens face.

RBA
04-29-2006, 10:28 PM
Jonathan Joseph(CB-South Carolina)

Not a bad pick, I still wanted Thomas Howard though.:(

I think my Raiders got him. :beerme:

WVRed
04-29-2006, 10:34 PM
Frostee Rucker(DE-USC)

Who?:confused:

Reds Fanatic
04-29-2006, 10:34 PM
Bengals 3rd round pick:

Frostee Rucker DE USC

Reds Fanatic
04-29-2006, 10:36 PM
NFL.com does not even have a profile for Rucker.

CTA513
04-29-2006, 10:37 PM
Frostee Rucker(DE-USC)

Who?:confused:

Some kind of new desert at Wendys?

dsmith421
04-29-2006, 10:38 PM
Perry may not be a bust as an NFL player. But teams should and do expect more of a first-round pick than being a chronically injured second-stringer acting as maybe your fourth-choice offensive weapon. In my opinion.

And now we've passed up South Carolina's excellent safety Ko Simpson for a guy NFL.com has never heard of.

Reds Fanatic
04-29-2006, 10:42 PM
Finally found something on Rucker this is from Sports Illustrated:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2006/draft/players/18354.html



Position: DE
Class: Sr
School: USC
Conference: Pacific-10
Ht., Wt.: 6-3.5, 267
40 Time: 4.96
Selected by: Cincinnati Bengals
Round 3, pick 27 (91 overall)

BIO: Two-year starter who began his career at Colorado State. All-Conference selection as a senior after totals of 53/12/6.5. Junior numbers included 29/7.5/2.5.

POSITIVES: Pass-rushing defensive end coming off a solid senior campaign. Fast off the edge, plays with good pad level and collapses from the outside making plays down the line of scrimmage. Forceful up the field and effectively uses his hands to keep blockers away.

NEGATIVES: Has only a short-area burst of speed, which he cannot sustain. Under-sized and can be handled at the point by blockers.

ANALYSIS: Flashing potential as a disruptive force, Rucker took off as a senior. Has changed minds after last season and the arrow is pointing up.

nycredsfan
04-29-2006, 10:46 PM
This pick is a true head scratcher. I am pretty sure that this guy would've been available in the 7th round and maybe as an undrafted FA. I have no idea what they are thinking with this. Passing on Simpson and Watson again is just unbelievable.

WMR
04-29-2006, 10:47 PM
Heard Rucker projected as a Sixth rounder on NFL radio...

WVRed
04-29-2006, 11:17 PM
Perry may not be a bust as an NFL player. But teams should and do expect more of a first-round pick than being a chronically injured second-stringer acting as maybe your fourth-choice offensive weapon. In my opinion.

And now we've passed up South Carolina's excellent safety Ko Simpson for a guy NFL.com has never heard of.

You still don't get it. Perry may not have lived up to the expectations of someone who would supplant Rudi Johnson, but he has given the Bengals a change of pace, pass catching option out of the backfield. Simply put, if both Perry and Rudi were healthy, id still find a way to keep both, because they both contribute equally to this team. Rudi may have the more gaudy numbers, but its Perry's pass catching ability that completes this running game.

There is only IMO one complete back in the NFL right now, and that is LaDainian Tomlinson. Reggie Bush has that ability, but I think Chris Perry, if he played everyday, would be similar to Brian Westbrook.

As far as K(OJ) Simpson being an excellent safety, why would an excellent safety make it to the second day of the draft? If a player like Leonard Pope, who everybody was clamoring for the Bengals to take, drops a full round lower than he was expected to be taken, that immediately tells me that teams see something in him that we don't see, or he would have been taken a lot higher or around the pick that was made.

Mock drafts are fun to read sometimes, but if you rely too much on them, it really clouds judgment on these picks.

dsmith421
04-29-2006, 11:22 PM
No, I'm pretty sure I DO get it, and you and I are arguing at cross purposes.

I am pretty confident that the average NFL team doesn't draft a guy in the first round to be a "change of pace" or an "additional weapon." You are looking for an impact player. I don't deny Perry had his moments last season, but he was not a difference-maker. He was a nice auxillary weapon for a team with glaring weaknesses on the defensive side of the ball. If Perry had been a second or third round pick I would have no problem with what he has brought to the table; however, I feel that we as fans can expect more out of a first-round draft selection.

That was the sum total of my implication, nothing more.

WVRed
04-29-2006, 11:32 PM
No, I'm pretty sure I DO get it, and you and I are arguing at cross purposes.

I am pretty confident that the average NFL team doesn't draft a guy in the first round to be a "change of pace" or an "additional weapon." You are looking for an impact player. I don't deny Perry had his moments last season, but he was not a difference-maker. He was a nice auxillary weapon for a team with glaring weaknesses on the defensive side of the ball. If Perry had been a second or third round pick I would have no problem with what he has brought to the table; however, I feel that we as fans can expect more out of a first-round draft selection.

That was the sum total of my implication, nothing more.

If he was drafted in the top 10-15, id agree with you. The further down the draft board you get, it becomes a position of filling needs rather than best player available(although you can play that card).

The only other player on the board besides a RB would have been Chris Gamble. At the time, Gamble was so raw that it would have been a development project that the team didnt have time for(plus we had traded for Deltha O'Neal).

I see your point, but all im saying is the later on you get in the draft, the least likely it is to get a star player.

This is a good discussion.:)

OnBaseMachine
04-29-2006, 11:32 PM
Frostee Rucker is a good player. I don't know if he was worthy of a 3rd round pick, but he is not a wasted draft pick. He'll fit in nicely as a solid defensive end in the Bengals system.

WVRed
04-29-2006, 11:44 PM
On the plus side, it can't be worse than Sean "Sewer" Brewer.

Didn't Brewer smoke and chew tobacco when he played for the Bengals?

OnBaseMachine
04-30-2006, 02:24 AM
How in the world did NC State only go 6-5 last year and have three defensive lineman drafted in the top 26 picks of this draft? Throw in Andre Brown and Toney Baker at RB, T.J. Williams at TE, and Tramain Hall at WR and it really makes you think how bad the coaching or QB was at that school last year. That team was loaded with talent.

Revering4Blue
04-30-2006, 05:50 AM
How in the world did NC State only go 6-5 last year and have three defensive lineman drafted in the top 26 picks of this draft? Throw in Andre Brown and Toney Baker at RB, T.J. Williams at TE, and Tramain Hall at WR and it really makes you think how bad the coaching or QB was at that school last year. That team was loaded with talent.

Under Chuck Amato, the Wolfpack haven't really been successful offensively without Norm Chow and/or Phillip Rivers.

Marc Trestman, the current Wolfpack OC and former NFL OC, installed his version of the "West Coast Offense'' which has never really been that successful of an offense on the college level. Former UCLA and Current Auburn OC Alan Borges's offenses are the notable exception because his teams threw the ball downfield and utilized the athleticism of QBs such as Jason Campbell and Cade McNown to keep defenses honest, which is something most WCOs fail to do.

Once the athletic Marcus Stone was installed as QB--about halfway through the season--the Wolfpack offense, with the threat of roll-outs, bootlegs and option plays began to jell and no longer resembled a bad NFL team's offense, though they barely avoided a losing season.

You have to wonder if any major college coach has done less with more than Amato.

And Wolfpack fans thought Herb Sendek wasn't good enough for NC State..

Revering4Blue
04-30-2006, 06:12 AM
Five first-round winners
Peter King, SI.com

Peter King
SI.com

METAIRIE, La. -- Five teams I like exiting Round 1:

1. New Orleans. The Saints did the chalk thing, the right thing. They never got a good offer for the second overall pick, so they took the top guy on three-quarters of the draft boards around the league, Reggie Bush.

2. San Francisco. Got the great receiving tight end, probably the best pure receiver in the draft, in Vernon Davis, and a high-effort Mike Nolan kind of defensive talent in Manny Lawson. The 49ers are a significantly better team today than they were yesterday.

3. Denver. I love Jay Cutler the player. I really like Jay Cutler the person.


4. Carolina. DeAngelo Williams. Here's a guy who was in the top 10 of most every draft wag's shopping list in January. And the Panthers got him at 27th overall. Maybe this is the guy, finally, who can be the every-down back the Panthers just simply haven't been able to find.

5. New York Jets. Maybe it wasn't sexy enough for the Radio City throng, but the Jets rebuilt their offensive line in the span of four hours. If all goes well, they got their left tackle and center of the next decade in D'Brickashaw Ferguson and Nick Mangold. And let me tell you something: The Saints were in mourning when Mangold went off the board. They were hoping he'd be there for their 34th overall pick.

Five Things I Think I Think

1. I think I was pretty darn wrong about Winston Justice and LenDale White, both of whom I thought were lock first-rounders, even with some of their off-field faux pas. Character counts more than ever, people.

2. I think the line of the day came from Chris Berman, re the Giants' pick of Mathias Kiwanuka, now joining Osi Umenyiora on the defensive line. "They're going to have a great team for Scrabble,'' Berman said.

3. I think I'd like to thank some of the folks in the NFL -- many actually -- for being economical on the clock. There is no good reason for a first round to take six hours, but they often do. This one took slightly less than five. Thank you, Colts, for taking two minutes to send the card up for running back Joseph Addai from LSU, and thank you, Arizona, for doing the no-brainer thing in picking Matt Leinart at No. 10.

4. I think Marcedes Lewis is just what the doctor ordered for Jacksonville quarterback Byron Leftwich, an offensive tight end with good hands over the middle.

5. I think it's absurd teams let Jimmy Williams -- corner from Virginia Tech, 213 pounds with a 4.38-second 40-yard dash -- get out of the first round.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AjD_kGcrMhmgCltoWd2Y_IJDubYF?slug=cnnsi-fivefirstroundw&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns

Revering4Blue
04-30-2006, 06:17 AM
Winners and Losers
Don Banks, SI.com

Don Banks
SI.com


NEW YORK -- Winners and losers from day one of the 2006 NFL Draft, which went down Saturday afternoon and evening at its swankiest venue ever, Radio City Music Hall:

WINNERS

FIRST-ROUND QUARTERBACKS I can't decide who the biggest winner was, because all three came out smelling like a rose in their own way. Vince Young goes third to Tennessee, a franchise known to take its time developing young franchise passers. And it won't hurt Young's chances to succeed a bit if the Titans work out their contractual problems with Steve McNair, who is close with Young and could mentor his friend for a year or two.


And then you have Matt Leinart. True, he dropped to No. 10 and that will cost him a bunch of money in terms of his signing bonus. But in terms of where he went, once he cleared the top four, he could have done far worse. Arizona, you say? Yes, Arizona. One, Leinart doesn't have to play right away with Kurt Warner on hand. Two, Warner is a pretty generous veteran when it comes to helping younger quarterbacks (see Marc Bulger and Eli Manning). Lastly, having Edgerrin James in the backfield makes any quarterback look better.

Finally, Jay Cutler goes to Denver 11th overall, where he'll be fortified by what is historically the league's best running game, and he too doesn't have to play right away (something all three first-round quarterbacks have in common, surprisingly enough in this day and age). Cutler will learn Mike Shanahan's proven offensive system from Jake Plummer for a while, before being tossed under the You-ain't-John-Elway microscope in the Mile High city.

NEW ORLEANS The draft's marquee player -- USC running back Reggie Bush -- lands in the Saints' lap, thanks to Houston's inability to seal the deal with the Heisman Trophy winner. No, the New Orleans running game wasn't a pressing concern. But some teams are born to greatness. Others have it thrust upon them.

NEW YORK JETS In the first round, the Jets landed the draft's best offensive tackle -- Virginia's D'Brickashaw Ferguson -- and its best center in Ohio State's Nick Mangold. And suddenly New York's most glaring weakness from 2005 is a decided strength. And that's the way Bill Belichick-clone Eric Mangini will start to build a winner in the rugged AFC East.

ARIZONA CARDINALS Dennis Green's club somehow came away with a Heisman-winning quarterback at the ridiculously affordable price of a No. 10 pick in Leinart and one of the draft's top guard prospects in Taitusi Lutui. In a related development, the Cardinals franchise is changing its name once again, this time to USC East.

SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS The 49ers have won an NFL-low six games in the past two seasons, but they took a couple big steps toward being more than the league's favorite homecoming opponent with Saturday's development. Maryland tight end Vernon Davis will enter the league as this season's favorite for NFL offensive rookie of the year honor and San Francisco with its second first-rounder landed a potential impact rush-linebacker in N.C. State's Manny Lawson.

Anybody want to wager that Lawson will wind up his rookie season with more sacks than his former collegiate teammate and fellow defensive end, Mario Williams?

OHIO STATE SAFETY DONTE WHITNER The only surprise member of the top 10 hits the jackpot, going in the No. 8 slot to Buffalo. Not even a month ago, Whitner largely wasn't even considered a first-round pick, let alone a top-10 selection. Can you say financial windfall? Whitner can. And he'll reap it, too.

LOSERS

REGGIE BUSH Not only did Bush end a very trying week by losing out on the honor and the accompanying payday of going No. 1, he didn't get what was likely his second choice of going to the Jets, because New York didn't make a move up to No. 2 to get him. And at least Bush was honest about his reasons for wanting to get to the Big Apple.

"Obviously I'd love to play in New York,'' Bush said Saturday. "I could have made a lot of money in the marketing [business in] New York.''

Oh, and did we mention that Texas has no state tax, as Bush quickly noted at the NFL Scouting Combine in Indianapolis, but Louisiana does?

LENDALE WHITE And speaking of former Southern Cal running backs who didn't have the best of days, there was White, who tumbled all the way to Tennessee in the middle of the second round (No. 45 overall). White paid dearly for not being able to push away from the family dinner table over the holidays last year, because the resulting weight gain to the range of 240-plus pounds wound up creating most of his subsequent problems.

And the phrase "Don't pull a LenDale'' has just entered the draft lexicon.

NEW YORK GIANTS The Giants traded quality for quantity. They sent their No. 25 pick to Pittsburgh in exchange for the Steelers' No. 32 pick, plus a third- and fourth-rounder this year. Good move? Not really. Mathias Kiwanuka was a standout pass rusher at Boston College, but as an NFL defensive end he'll have to put on some significant weight in order to not get pushed around by behemoth offensive tackles.

PITTSBURGH STEELERS On the flip side of the Giants-Steelers, Pittsburgh had to surrender three picks to move up a measly seven spots. Ohio State receiver Santonio Holmes better be more than the next Antwaan Randle El for that price. He better be a Lynn Swann knockoff.

HOUSTON FOOTBALL FANS They didn't get their fondest wish of watching hometown hero Young don the Texans' red, white and blue. They didn't get the consolation prize of all consolation prizes in Heisman winner Bush. What they got was what better darn well be the next Super Mario, defensive end Mario Williams of N.C. State.

And even worse, that carpet-bagging Bud Adams had the gall to draft Young in Tennessee.

BUFFALO Ohio State safety Donte Whitner at No. 8? They could have traded down 10 spots and still landed him. N.C. State defensive tackle John McCargo at No. 26? The vast majority of drafniks didn't even have him higher than the middle of the second round.

And maybe it was a year too early to give up on 2004 first-round quarterback J.P. Losman, but if the Bills do exactly that next year at this time, won't they look back and wish they had taken Leinart at No. 8 when they had the chance?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cnnsi-winnersandloser&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns

WVRed
04-30-2006, 10:18 AM
Just to point out, Darnell Bing, Gabe Watson, Greg Blue, and Ko Simpson are still on the board. At one point, all of these players except maybe Blue were considered first round talent.

Just goes to show people doing mock drafts can't predict everything.:)

StillFunkyB
04-30-2006, 10:47 AM
I think Houston had a pretty decent draft so far.

They got two offensive lineman that will help. They also got a difference maker on defense. I wouldn't be dissapointed if I was a Texans fan.

I think the Jets were REALLY smart. Sure Leinart is the sexy pick, but when you have an Orlando Pace type tackle sitting there available when you already have a QB that when healthy is pretty good, you take that tackle.

If the Saints were truly offered the "Ricky Williams" package for that 2nd pick, then they are really DUMB for not taking it. Then again, maybe there is something they haven't said about McAllister's return.

GAC
04-30-2006, 11:04 AM
Seeing the Browns switch places in line with Baltimore at the last moment, and for Baltimore to take Ngata, simply makes me laugh.

What? They thought the Browns were gonna take him? No way! :lol:

And while I think GB got a heck of a player in AJ Hawk.... I really can't belive they didn't address their QB issue with Leinert or Cutler available.

I was listening to some of the GB players after the pick say that they still have "the man" back there. This has to be Favre's last year, and having a young QB in there learning from him could have been advantageous.

Maybe they are resigned to the fact that they'll suck again this year.... and then they'll worry about a QB. ;)

They traded Javon Walker to the Broncos for a 2nd round pick, so we'll see what happens.

So Denver ended up with Cutler (be worried Jake), and Walker.

And the Jets and Buffalo picks also surprised me. I guess the Jets have alot of faith in oft-injured Pennington.

StillFunkyB
04-30-2006, 11:06 AM
Seeing the Browns switch places in line with Baltimore at the last moment, and for Baltimore to take Ngata, simply makes me laugh.

What? They thought the Browns were gonna take him? No way! :lol:

And while I think GB got a heck of a player in AJ Hawk.... I really can't belive they didn't address their QB issue with Leinert or Cutler available.

I was listening to some of the GB players after the pick say that they still have "the man" back there. This has to be Favre's last year, and having a young QB in there learning from him could have been advantageous.

Maybe they are resigned to the fact that they'll suck again this year.... and then they'll worry about a QB. ;)

They traded Javon Walker to the Broncos for a 2nd round pick, so we'll see what happens.

So Denver ended up with Cutler (be worried Jake), and Walker.

And the Jets and Buffalo picks also surprised me. I guess the Jets have alot of faith in oft-injured Pennington.

They have Aaron Rodgers they drafted last year GAC. Being the understudy to Brett Favre for two years can't hurt. Hopefully, for GB fans, they get along and he is learning from him.

smith288
04-30-2006, 11:50 AM
Hawk will fit in just fine at GB. I was hoping he wouldnt go to SF because:

A) Hawk's a die hard conservative and would probably melt in that town ;)
B) Green Bay would be shown more in our region than San Fran.

Reds Fanatic
04-30-2006, 01:21 PM
Bengals 4th round pick:

Domata Peko DT Michigan State

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2006/peko_domata


Peko has the talent to become a good starter in the NFL, but his inconsistent play kept him from being a consistently good college player. He has the natural size, but needs to get in better shape and play with good leverage/base in order to play up to his natural size/strength consistently in the NFL. He has the quick feet, agility and playing speed to avoid blocks and chase plays down in pursuit -- he has a good slap and arm-over move to defeat blocks. He has not stayed in shape or played up to his ability consistently at Michigan State and usually those traits follow a player into the NFL. Teams will need to be very careful not to over-draft him because of his natural athleticism, but could definitely draft him late because 300-pound defensive tackles with his athleticism and on-field competitiveness are hard to find. In the end, Peko will most likely end up being the same inconsistent player in the NFL that he was in college, but if the light ever goes on and he plays aggressively and with good hand use and technique, he has the tools to become a solid, disruptive starting defensive tackle in the NFL.

WVRed
04-30-2006, 01:23 PM
Bengals 4th round pick:

Domata Peko DT Michigan State

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2006/peko_domata

Ok, after reading this, I like this pick. Marvin usually drafts inconsistent players he can ride, so if he can get him to play, this could pay dividends.

WVRed
04-30-2006, 01:30 PM
Picks of note-

Max Jean Gilles-Philadelphia
Darnell Bing-Oakland
Ko Simpson-Buffalo
Gabe Watson-Arizona

New England also drafted a kicker.

WVRed
04-30-2006, 02:10 PM
Browns are said to be looking at dealing a pick for Joey Harrington. Wonder what purpose this serves with Charlie Frye and Trent Dilfer already there?

WVRed
04-30-2006, 03:20 PM
5th round pick-AJ Nicholson(LB-Florida St)


A. J. Nicholson
Height: 6-1
Weight: 253
40 Speed: 4.99*
Position: Inside Linebacker
College: Florida State
Final Grade: F 5.8

GM JR Scouting LLC Grading Scale/Key

SUMMARY

Nicholson was a tough player to fairly grade, because he was an extremely productive college middle linebacker, but is a limited athlete who struggles to play outside of his small area. He is a smart and instinctive player, which helps him to consistently get started towards the ball quickly and to play to the limits of his ability. He has shown the strength to take on offensive line blocks strong at the point of attack, can shed, get free and make the tackle. Overall, the big concern is that Nicholson will be over-drafted based on his production, and the fact that he is a limited athlete and lacks good playing speed will be overlooked. I believe he will be a solid, competitive starting middle linebacker, who makes plays between the offensive tackles, but struggles to make plays outside the hash-marks. He will be good vs. the inside run and in zone coverage, but will struggle to chase down ball carriers in backside pursuit and in man-to-man coverage. Even though he does not have the ideal playing speed, his smarts, instincts and toughness will enable him to be a solid special teams player in the NFL.
CRITICAL FACTORS
Athletic Ability Initial Quickness Play Strength Competes Play Speed Instincts
5.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 5.0 6.5

STRONG POINTS

Nicholson is a smart and instinctive linebacker, who is consistently around the ball and makes a lot of tackles on inside runs. When he is aggressive with his play and uses his hands, he jolts blockers, stays free and makes plays on runs directed at him. He avoids blocks well while on the move and can chase down ball carriers from behind between the hash-marks. He drops off the ball into zone coverage very smoothly, reads the quarterback, and has the hands to break up passes and make tough interceptions. He does a very good job of timing his blitzes, gets in the backfield, and makes hits on the quarterback.

WEAKNESSES

Nicholson is a limited athlete, who lacks the playing speed and athleticism to make plays outside of a small area -- he will not be able to catch NFL ball carriers in pursuit. His lack of agility and tendency to get upright when moving through traffic really limits his ability to move through traffic smoothly -- he gets bumped around and slowed up a lot. He does not have the athletic ability to stay with tight ends and running backs in man-to-man coverage, and he lacks the explosive closing burst to finish plays consistently. He over-runs some tackles he could make if he stayed under control.

POSITIONAL FACTORS
Grade Category Comments/Description
6.0 Read & React He consistently reads and reacts quickly to the play, but is hurt at times by over-aggressiveness.
6.0 Initial Quickness His instincts enable him to consistently get moving quickly, despite limited athleticism.
6.0 Play Strength He can stack the point of attack vs. blockers and can be a strong, physical tackler at the point of attack.
5.5 Tackling He's good in the middle, but struggles when he is out in space and has to adjust on the move.
6.0 Shed Blocker When he is aggressive with his hands, he is very effective shedding blocks, but struggles when he doesn't use his hands well.
6.0 Run at Him He sniffs out inside runs well, can fight through blocks well, and can make hard, physical tackles.
5.5 Pursuit/Range His instincts help him chase down plays between the hash-marks, but he lacks speed to make plays outside.
5.5 Closing Burst He has good closing burst when he blitzes, but lacks a good closing burst chasing down running backs.
6.0 Zone Coverage He drops into a zone very smoothly, reads the quarterback well, and can make plays on passes in his area.
5.0 M/M Coverage He stays with his man on short routes, but struggles on anything more than four or five yards due to a lack of speed.
5.5 Pass Rush Ability He lacks explosiveness as a blitzer, but times the blitz well, gets through the hole and gets to the quarterback consistently.
6.0 Errors He does not make many mental errors, but needs to be more consistent with his hands vs. blockers.

ATHLETIC ABILITY Section Grade: 5.0

Nicholson is a limited athlete, who is able to mask it in a small area because of his smarts and instincts. He has adequate foot quicksness, but his instincts enable him to get started towards the ball quicker than you expect for a limited athlete. He can accelerate to full speed quickly, but lacks the playing speed and closing burst to chase down ball carriers outside the tackles. He has adequate agility at best, and it really hinders his ability to move well through traffic -- he gets bounced around and slowed too easily. While he is a limited athlete, he has the flexibility to bend his knees and tackle with good body position when he stays over his feet and under control. Overall, he is an adequate athlete who functions well in open areas between the tackles, but lacks speed to make plays outside and struggles moving through traffic.
Q.A.B. Quick Feet C.O.D. Flexibility Coordination
5.0 5.0 5.0 6.0 5.0

COMPETITIVENESS Section Grade: 6.0

Nicholson is a tough linebacker, who has consistently played through pain to stay in the lineup and plays with a tough and aggressive attitude, but he does not always show toughness stepping up and taking on blockers aggressively at the point of attack. On important downs, Nicholson does a good job of making plays between the tackles -- he fills aggressively and makes tackles vs. the run in the backfield and can drop off the ball into short and medium zone coverages -- and has the hands to make the very tough interception. His overall production is consistently good, because within the hash marks, he is consistently around the ball making plays. He can't make plays on the outside, and lacks the speed to cover running backs and tight ends down the field. He is a very competitive team player who plays with pride and a no-quit attitude on every single snap.
Toughness Clutch Play Production Consistency Team Player Pride/Quit
6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.5 6.5

MENTAL ALERTNESS Section Grade: 6.0

Nicholson is a smart football player, which shows in his good hand technique taking on blockers, and in his sharp and precise pass drops. His instincts are what enable him to consistently get moving fast at the snap, despite not having good all-around athletic ability -- they let him react to the play faster than he should be able to. He plays with a high level of concentration on every snap, but at times his aggressiveness gets the best of him, and he will over-run some tackles he should make, and he will step forward and bite on play-action fakes.
Learn/Retain Instincts/Reactions Concentration
6.5 6.5 6.0

STRENGTH/EXPLOSION Section Grade: 6.0

Nicholson is a very well-built middle linebacker, but he is only slightly over 6-0, which is a concern -- it is important to note that on film, he clearly looks taller than his measured height. His toughness, competitiveness and natural strength are what will make him a durable NFL middle linebacker. He is not explosive when it comes to his burst to full speed and closing on ball carriers, but he does show explosiveness as a tackler on inside runs when he snaps his hips and drives up into the ball carrier. He usually plays very strong, both as a tackler and vs. most blockers, but at times, he is not aggressive vs. offensive line blocks, and can be knocked backwards at the point of attack.
Body Type Durability Explosion Play Strength
5.5 6.0 5.5 6.0

WVRed
04-30-2006, 05:01 PM
6th round pick-Reggie McNeal(QB-Texas A&M)


Reggie McNeal
Height: 6-2
Weight: 197
40 Speed: 4.36*
Position: Quarterback
College: Texas A&M
Final Grade: E 5.5

GM JR Scouting LLC Grading Scale/Key

STRONG POINTS

McNeal is a rare athlete for a quarterback and has consistently shown the ability to create something out of nothing because of it. He can avoid sacks, buys second chances and can make big plays running with the ball. He has shown the ability to get rid of the ball quickly and with zip, although his throwing motion is not ideal. He has the arm strength to make the 50+-yard throw deep down the field. For a raw quarterback, he has shown a surprising ability to come back and find his second and/or third receivers when his primary receiver is covered.

WEAKNESSES

McNeal is a very raw quarterback whose release is side-arm/three-quarter-arm, and it hinders his accuracy and he gets too many passes tipped at the line of scrimmage. Despite having the arm strength to make all the throws, his accuracy is bad -- he struggles to consistently make throws on target (his passes really tend to dip in front of the receiver). He has played out of the shotgun nearly all the time at Texas A&M and will need to adjust to playing under center and in a more traditional NFL offense. He has shown a tendency to force passes when under pressure because he does not consistently read and identify the defense correctly at the snap.

Reds Fanatic
04-30-2006, 05:21 PM
Bengals 7th round pick:

Ethan Kilmer WR Penn State

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2006/kilmer_ethan



Height: 6-0
Weight: 205
40 Speed: 4.45
Position: Return Specialist/Wide Receiver
College: Penn State

Kilmer ran his 40 one time at his Pro Day, clocking in at 4.45. He had a 40½-inch vertical jump, 10-foot-10 long jump, 4.12 short shuttle, 6.90 three-cone drill, and did 19 lifts. Kilmer transferred to Penn State from Shippensburg and played just two years for the Nittany Lions. He is really good on covering kicks and is a lot like David Tyree when he played at Syracuse. However, he is not that good at receiver.


Bengals have another pick in the 7th round.

Reds Fanatic
04-30-2006, 06:13 PM
Bengals 7th round pick:

Benny Brazell WR LSU

CTA513
04-30-2006, 10:21 PM
6th round pick-Reggie McNeal(QB-Texas A&M)

Heres a video with a bunch of clips of him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZZItSzkock

MWM
04-30-2006, 10:28 PM
One's thing for sure with this draft, Marvin is going to look like either a genius or a fool. There's no middle ground. I have a lot of faith in Marvin (although I agree with those who think Perry was a bad pick), but this draft has me questioning that faith a little.

Caveat Emperor
04-30-2006, 10:39 PM
And the Jets and Buffalo picks also surprised me. I guess the Jets have alot of faith in oft-injured Pennington.

Don't forget the Jets traded a 6th round pick for Patrick Ramsey who I still think can be an extremely effective NFL QB as long as there's a line in front of him and someone competent drawing the plays up .

KronoRed
04-30-2006, 10:42 PM
Are you calling Joe Gibbs incompetent?? ;)

Caveat Emperor
04-30-2006, 10:55 PM
Are you calling Joe Gibbs incompetent?? ;)

I'd be lying if I said I liked him. ;)

Truthfully, it was Steve "I don't believe in check-down routes" Spurrier that really screwed Ramsey up. That offense nearly got the kid killed.

WVRed
04-30-2006, 11:12 PM
One's thing for sure with this draft, Marvin is going to look like either a genius or a fool. There's no middle ground. I have a lot of faith in Marvin (although I agree with those who think Perry was a bad pick), but this draft has me questioning that faith a little.

Only two picks I call into question, Frostee and Whitworth. Even then, Whitworth wasn't really that big of a reach.(Bengalszone's mock had him going five picks later to Tampa).

Joseph filled a need, and our second day picks don't look too bad. We could have picked up a solid starting DT, ILB, and a Randle El type player in the 6th round.

This draft reminds me a lot of the one two years ago. Most Bengal fans threw a fit when we took Madieu Williams and Keiwan Ratliff over Randy Starks. The picks we made then weren't Steelers of 1974 picks, but it wasn't the end of the world.

traderumor
05-01-2006, 11:05 AM
One thing that is getting extremely overblown these days in drafts is "character issues." The exploits of immature young men are published and presented as if the events are everyday occurrences. Add to it that the Bengals now have Chris Henry's deeds as a poster child for the pundits, and now every draft pick is scrutinized for citizenship. While I certainly don't want my favorite team paying guys hundreds of thousands of dollars that are not going to be able stay out of jail, since when did drafting a player that has had moral failures and even brushes with the law in college become such a big issue? When did the NFL get so righteous?

traderumor
05-01-2006, 11:12 AM
Only two picks I call into question, Frostee and Whitworth. Even then, Whitworth wasn't really that big of a reach.(Bengalszone's mock had him going five picks later to Tampa).

Joseph filled a need, and our second day picks don't look too bad. We could have picked up a solid starting DT, ILB, and a Randle El type player in the 6th round.

This draft reminds me a lot of the one two years ago. Most Bengal fans threw a fit when we took Madieu Williams and Keiwan Ratliff over Randy Starks. The picks we made then weren't Steelers of 1974 picks, but it wasn't the end of the world.This draft told me that the Bengals feel that they have their starters filled and wanted to get more athletic as they search for depth. Also, the special teams left a lot to be desired, which is where the "who?" from the late rounds were headed. One thing I've learned from Marvin's drafts is that he is not a traditional drafter that the mockers can predict. Add to that he is drafting low in each round this year and I think the picks seem even more puzzling.

But then, when it comes to talent evaluation and projecting a player into the system, anyone remember the guffawing over Tab Perry? And folks are still not on board with Chris Perry, which after last season has me shaking my head. Sometimes, I think people make too much of "reaches" and "coulda had him later." Maybe the Bengals thought that way a little too much this year and it cost them a difference making TE.

Reds Fanatic
05-01-2006, 11:58 AM
The Bengals have signed a few college free agents already.

Meyer the QB they signed is a former Reds draft pick.

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=5233


The Bengals only had to go around the corner to get that fifth tight end when KFFL.com reported they signed Ohio State’s Ryan Hamby as a college free agent after the draft ended Sunday night. A media outlet also said Eastern Washington quarterback Erik Meyer, the Walter Payton Award winner, signed a similar deal and will probably be the only quarterback in the May 12-14 rookie minicamp.

Hamby, out of Cincinnati’s Moeller High School, had just nine catches for 85 yards last season in a year he was hobbled for the last part of the regular season. Hamby, known mainly as a blocker, joins Reggie Kelly, Tony Stewart, Ronnie Ghent, and former Buckeye Darnell Sanders at tight end. The Bengals had hoped to draft a backup for Kelly, but those they wanted never fell to them.

The 6-1, 210-pound Meyer won the Payton Award as the best Division I-AA player after throwing for 3,616 yards, 26 touchdowns and five interceptions. Meyer finished with a 166.47 career passer rating for the 1-AA record.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2006, 02:56 PM
Quite puzzling that they'd be drafting for depth when Marvin has one of the league's worst defenses. Has it even improved since he got here?

If they liked the snowman so much, I'm sure they could have taken him a round or two later. And an OT in round 2? A real head-scratcher. I guess if we are possibly going to lose Levi Jones, I'd say this organization is still as clueless as it ever was. Nothing wrong with depth on the OL. I just don't think using a high pick like that on a back-up OT makes much sense.

Plus, Rucker, Peta, and Nicholson all have character issues. If one of these guys pulls a Chris Henry, Marvin will deserve every single bit of bad press he gets.

And, IMO, the Perry pick was questionable in 2004. Chris Gamble would have looked real good at that spot.

traderumor
05-01-2006, 03:10 PM
Quite puzzling that they'd be drafting for depth when Marvin has one of the league's worst defenses. Has it even improved since he got here?

If they liked the snowman so much, I'm sure they could have taken him a round or two later. And an OT in round 2? A real head-scratcher. I guess if we are possibly going to lose Levi Jones, I'd say this organization is still as clueless as it ever was. Nothing wrong with depth on the OL. I just don't think using a high pick like that on a back-up OT makes much sense.

Plus, Rucker, Peta, and Nicholson all have character issues. If one of these guys pulls a Chris Henry, Marvin will deserve every single bit of bad press he gets.

And, IMO, the Perry pick was questionable in 2004. Chris Gamble would have looked real good at that spot.

The free agent pick ups addressed needs in the middle of the DL and at safety. A healthy Madieu Williams addresses another, an impact that should not be overlooked. The D had a rookie MLB who still had a monster year and should be better with a year under his belt. So, a position lacking depth was CB, they took a 1st rdr there. The OT draftee, what do want them to do, wait until Willie or Levi are gone to bring someone in? And I imagine every one of these draftees have "character issues" of one sort or another.

Now, besides TE, name a position that was not addressed in free agency that still has a question mark for a starter?

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2006, 03:49 PM
The OT draftee, what do want them to do, wait until Willie or Levi are gone to bring someone in? And I imagine every one of these draftees have "character issues" of one sort or another.

Now, besides TE, name a position that was not addressed in free agency that still has a question mark for a starter?

Willie and Levi can both be re-signed. I understand possibly losing Willie (age), but why would they let Levi go? And haven't they been drafting back-up's and potential starters over the last few drafts (Andrews, Kieft, etc.), Even though they were taken later in the draft, is the Whitworth pick just an acknowledgment that those were wasted picks as well? If so, then I guess they had to take an OT due to failing in the past, but Whitworth most likely would have been available in the 3rd.

To answer your last question, I would have liked to see them draft a safety (potential starter) and a non-reach DE (a starter). I don't trust D. Jackson and if Madieau goes down again, I don't want to have to rely on a gym teacher and another poopy FA pick-up.

traderumor
05-01-2006, 04:12 PM
Andrews was a project and a low rounder, and Kieft and Kooistra were low rounders also, IIRC. Whitworth seems to be a hedge against losing one or both of two of the best tackles in the game. From what I read the other day, Levi is playing the "do they really want me" game, which I read between the lines as he is asking for a lot of money. Willie is old and has bad knees. My guess is that the Bengals spend the money on Levi and let Willie walk, or limp. So, when do you spend a high pick to inevitably replace them, next year and start a rookie (which on that note, I'm not sure why Whitworth is referred to as a RT. The film I saw had him at LT for the Tigers)?

And they really seemed to be in best available mode in the early rounds.

Danny Serafini
05-01-2006, 04:18 PM
I remember hearing that Whitworth projected to a RT in the pros because he wasn't quite quick enough to handle the toughest speed rushers he'd face at LT. That's OK though if they keep Levi and let Willie walk, since Willie's a RT.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2006, 04:32 PM
I remember hearing that Whitworth projected to a RT in the pros because he wasn't quite quick enough to handle the toughest speed rushers he'd face at LT. That's OK though if they keep Levi and let Willie walk, since Willie's a RT.

That's what I heard as well.

I'm okay with Whitworth. I just think he could have been taken later.

traderumor
05-01-2006, 04:38 PM
I remember hearing that Whitworth projected to a RT in the pros because he wasn't quite quick enough to handle the toughest speed rushers he'd face at LT. That's OK though if they keep Levi and let Willie walk, since Willie's a RT.I agree, and that seems to be the move that makes the most sense, esp. with Willie's age and bad knees.

traderumor
05-01-2006, 04:40 PM
That's what I heard as well.

I'm okay with Whitworth. I just think he could have been taken later.

It seems like the Bengals looked at their ranking method and found him to be the next pick. Plus, waiting didn't work out to well for TE, although I think the draftniks and media were more worried about getting a TE than the Bengals were.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2006, 04:46 PM
It seems like the Bengals looked at their ranking method and found him to be the next pick. Plus, waiting didn't work out to well for TE, although I think the draftniks and media were more worried about getting a TE than the Bengals were.

Yeah, the lack of a TE sure didn't slow down the offense last year. They seem to do fine with what they had.

With that said, please tell me that Ryan Hamby isn't part of the future. I love the kid because he's a Buckeye, but he's slower than molasses and the last thing he caught was a cold.

Roy Tucker
05-01-2006, 04:50 PM
Hamby, known mainly as a blocker, ...
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/stewart_mandel/12/28/cfb.mailbag/t1_hamby_si.jpg

KronoRed
05-01-2006, 04:51 PM
What's he blocking there?

ochre
05-01-2006, 04:54 PM
I think they wanted Fasano there, but he was taken a few picks earlier. That's what made the most sense to me as I watched it unfold. I think Marvin identifies individuals he is going to take at a givens slot. I think he puts a lot of credence in the individual interviews. I'm not sure that his concept of 'best available' would translate well to the way I think other teams do it. He seems to spot his list of players around where he thinks he'll have to take them to get them and then he just processes the list from there. I was really surprised by how far Rodrique Wright fell. He was a first rounder in a lot of mocks that I saw.

ochre
05-01-2006, 04:54 PM
What's he blocking there?
He's dropping a potential game winning touchdown.

Patrick Bateman
05-01-2006, 06:52 PM
I was really surprised by how far Rodrique Wright fell. He was a first rounder in a lot of mocks that I saw.

Apparently Wright has a torn rotator cuff which is why he fell so far.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2428809

ochre
05-01-2006, 07:07 PM
Apparently Wright has a torn rotator cuff which is why he fell so far.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2428809
That'll do it. Thanks for the link.