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View Full Version : Is Hal smoking something or am I wrong?



Wheelhouse
04-30-2006, 01:22 AM
I thought the Reds inherited Arroyo's contract--not so, according to Hal. I've never heard of what he's talking about. From his mailbag:

Q: Shouldn't the Reds be trying to sign Bronson Arroyo to a long-term deal right now? Of course, that's assuming he wants to come back. Michael, Wilmington, N.C.
A: And that's the big assumption one shouldn't make. Arroyo left Boston kicking and screaming. Because he was traded in the midst of a long-term contract, he has the option of becoming a free agent after the season. If he continues to have a monster year the Red Sox might offer him millions and the deed to The Old Church and Kenmore Square. He hasn't sold his new house in Boston, either.

westofyou
04-30-2006, 01:23 AM
Because he was traded in the midst of a long-term contract, he has the option of becoming a free agent after the season.

He doesn't have enough sevrvice time to exercise that option.

Wheelhouse
04-30-2006, 01:27 AM
How can a writer blather that about a player who's quickly becoming a hero to Reds fans?

M2
04-30-2006, 01:57 AM
Hal's never met a fact check he was willing to perform.

Caveat Emperor
04-30-2006, 02:02 AM
Hal's never met a fact check he was willing to perform.

I've been reading Bankruptcy code provisions all day and when I first read this sentence through my blurry eyes I thought it said:

"Hal's never met a fat chick he was willing to perform."

Much laughter ensued. (I need exams to end. :bang: )

TeamBoone
04-30-2006, 02:16 AM
Somebody, please email him and set him straight.

I'm beginning to think Castellini should be copied on all the emails lately. Hal's made a whole bunch of mistakes recently... fairly big ones, IMHO. And if you guys know what you're talking about (and I trust you more than I trust him), this one of his biggest.

I sent one (two actually) regarding the online ticket thing. I wonder if the owner even knows what's going on.

WVRedsFan
04-30-2006, 02:29 AM
Somebody, please email him and set him straight.

I'm beginning to think Castellini should be copied on all the emails lately. Hal's made a whole bunch of mistakes recently... fairly big ones, IMHO. And if you guys know what you're talking about (and I trust you more than I trust him), this one of his biggest.

I sent one (two actually) regarding the online ticket thing. I wonder if the owner even knows what's going on.

TB:

If you have Castellini's email addy, post it here or PM me with it.

EKURed
04-30-2006, 02:32 AM
I thought you could demand a trade if traded in the middle of a long-term deal, not become a free agent. Am I right?

SteelSD
04-30-2006, 02:59 AM
I thought you could demand a trade if traded in the middle of a long-term deal, not become a free agent. Am I right?

Only if a player has enough service time under his belt to exercise that right. Arroyo doesn't.

Gainesville Red
04-30-2006, 03:15 AM
One of the ESPN guys said that in one of the early games also, might have even been the spring training game.

WMR
04-30-2006, 03:22 AM
At least the ESPN guys aren't paid to exclusively cover the Reds for a living. Sheesh, doesn't he at least have an intern to fact check this crap?

KronoRed
04-30-2006, 04:20 AM
One of the ESPN guys said that in one of the early games also, might have even been the spring training game.
Hal = ESPN?

Not good

GAC
04-30-2006, 08:01 AM
Because he was traded in the midst of a long-term contract, he has the option of becoming a free agent after the season.

They stated this on the radio broadcast a couple weeks ago and I was aghast. When I asked around if this was true, no one knew.

So it's not true huh? Good.

SirFelixCat
04-30-2006, 08:10 AM
They stated this on the radio broadcast a couple weeks ago and I was aghast. When I asked around if this was true, no one knew.

So it's not true huh? Good.


No, it's not true. It's based on service time, as others have noted, and BA doesn't have enough accrued

Joseph
04-30-2006, 10:56 AM
If it makes anyone feel any better, Bronson himself has said he's playing the next three years here and then he'll see where he's wanted after that.

Cedric
04-30-2006, 11:20 AM
Somebody, please email him and set him straight.

I'm beginning to think Castellini should be copied on all the emails lately. Hal's made a whole bunch of mistakes recently... fairly big ones, IMHO. And if you guys know what you're talking about (and I trust you more than I trust him), this one of his biggest.

I sent one (two actually) regarding the online ticket thing. I wonder if the owner even knows what's going on.

Why would the owner have any control over the Dayton Daily News writer? There are a few more important things going on in his life to sit around and check every article from journalists.

TeamBoone
04-30-2006, 11:58 AM
I'm not saying he'd have control, but.... if he keeps printing untrue things because he doesn't check his facts, perhaps other people within the organization can refute some of the things coming out in print... albeit they would have to be very subtle in order to not step on toes.

westofyou
04-30-2006, 12:02 PM
The Reds need not worry about Hals fact checking gaffes, that's his editors problem, if Hal wants to write that Arroyo has 5 nipples and ferret named Little Papi, that lives in Dunns shower slippers then let him go ahead and do it.

The Press is the press and the Reds are a baseball team, I doubt either one is in the position to tell the other how to run their business (though Hal tries his best)

Chip R
04-30-2006, 12:09 PM
Somebody, please email him and set him straight.

Fat lot of good it will do. He will just ignore it.

TeamBoone
04-30-2006, 01:31 PM
The Reds need not worry about Hals fact checking gaffes, that's his editors problem, if Hal wants to write that Arroyo has 5 nipples and ferret named Little Papi, that lives in Dunns shower slippers then let him go ahead and do it.

:D That is hilarious!!!!

You guys have such imagination... how do you come up with this stuff? You should be a stand-up comic or something.

PuffyPig
04-30-2006, 01:52 PM
I thought you could demand a trade if traded in the middle of a long-term deal, not become a free agent. Am I right?

You're correct, in that a player traded in the middle of a long term contract (provided he has enough service time (Arroyo doesn't) can demand a trade after the season. If not traded, he becomes a FA. He doesn't automatically become a free agent. If traded, then the new team assumes his contract.

Hal's reporting is ametuerish at best. Even if Arroyo could demand a trade (he can't), the Reds could easily trade him for a big return.

TeamBoone
04-30-2006, 02:02 PM
If it makes anyone feel any better, Bronson himself has said he's playing the next three years here and then he'll see where he's wanted after that.

Do you have a link for this? I'm not doubting you, I just want to read the article.

MWM
04-30-2006, 04:04 PM
Hal makes these types of mistakes on player rules all the time. A few years back he claimed that Barry Larkin and Ken Griffey Junior could still be optioned to the minors because all their option years were never used. I'm surprised Hal doesn't have someone to chek into these types of rules because they can be tricky at times. You'd think he'd want to make sure he's right before he commits stuff to print.

2001MUgrad
04-30-2006, 04:07 PM
Not saying you guys are wrong and Hal is right, but.... Have you actually seen his contract?? If so post it, don't assume.

westofyou
04-30-2006, 04:17 PM
Not saying you guys are wrong and Hal is right, but.... Have you actually seen his contract?? If so post it, don't assume.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/1999/0908/46397.html

A player with five years of service time who is traded in the middle of a multi-year contract may demand another trade prior to the start of the season following the one in which he was traded.



Bronson Arroyo: signed 3-year deal worth 11.25M thru 2008 season on 1/19/06- + he receives a 750K signing bonus and salaries of 2.75M in 2006, 3.8M in 2007 and 3.95M in 2008- + he receives a handshake agreement that he will not be traded during the 2005-2006 off-season- + he can earn 1M in bonuses- + 1.5M of 2006 salary is paid by BOS- + 2005 salary: 1.85M (+ 75K in performance bonuses) Agents: Terry Bross, Gregg Clifton Service Time: 2.150

http://www.mlb4u.com/cin.html


Took 5 minutes to look that up.

red-in-la
04-30-2006, 06:36 PM
Mnay have said WOY should be a GM......now you say he should be a stand-up comic......seems to me that the two are very similar anyway.

IslandRed
04-30-2006, 06:57 PM
Not saying you guys are wrong and Hal is right, but.... Have you actually seen his contract?? If so post it, don't assume.

What WOY said. The rule in question is part of the CBA and applies to all of MLB, it's not something specific to Arroyo's contract.

GAC
04-30-2006, 10:06 PM
Them handshake agreements mean squat huh? :lol:

George Foster
04-30-2006, 10:16 PM
I'm not saying he'd have control, but.... if he keeps printing untrue things because he doesn't check his facts, perhaps other people within the organization can refute some of the things coming out in print... albeit they would have to be very subtle in order to not step on toes.


The Reds can take his press credentials...period. They can say, "get your #@#%# straight or your out of the press box."

savafan
04-30-2006, 10:51 PM
I can recall a time, during the late 1980's to early 1990's, when Hal McCoy was the definative press voice of the Cincinnati Reds. He was the go to source in the Dayton Daily News for Reds information, and Ritter Collett before him. However, with younger, persistant, and sadly, healthier reporters now following the Reds for other publications, as well as the rise in popularity of the internet, it seems Hal's time has passed.

KronoRed
04-30-2006, 10:56 PM
The Reds can take his press credentials...period. They can say, "get your #@#%# straight or your out of the press box."
That would go down well ;)

Like with the Reds trying to get Joe to move on it would be presented as the mean old Reds being mean to a HOF.

2001MUgrad
04-30-2006, 11:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/1999/0908/46397.html

A player with five years of service time who is traded in the middle of a multi-year contract may demand another trade prior to the start of the season following the one in which he was traded.




http://www.mlb4u.com/cin.html


Took 5 minutes to look that up.

Again though. A contract can say whatever the 2 parties want it to say. it also mentions a handshake agreement. See how binding that was. So, do you know 100% for a fact there was no such agreement?

westofyou
05-01-2006, 12:00 AM
Again though. A contract can say whatever the 2 parties want it to say.Again that's the MLBPU agreement 5 years.

Arroyo has less than 3.

What's so hard about that?

M2
05-01-2006, 12:03 AM
Again that's the MLBPU agreement 5 years.

Arroyo has less than 3.

What's so hard about that?

I suppose it's not what he wants to hear, even if it happens to be the truth.

savafan
05-01-2006, 12:10 AM
Is there any way the Red Sox can restructure Wily Mo's contract so he can play everyday at AAA? ;)

Nugget
05-01-2006, 12:38 AM
No. WMP's contract (someone can show the thread when the REDS discussed it) is a major league contract so once he signed that he had 3 years to make it onto the big leagues for good. The only way the Red sox can get a WMP contract that would allow demotion to the minor is to DFA and resign him to a minor league contract.

paintmered
05-01-2006, 12:43 AM
No. WMP's contract (someone can show the thread when the REDS discussed it) is a major league contract so once he signed that he had 3 years to make it onto the big leagues for good. The only way the Red sox can get a WMP contract that would allow demotion to the minor is to DFA and resign him to a minor league contract.

Good answer, but the question was a rhetorical Redszone inside joke. It was asked here and in newspaper Q&A articles dozens of times after Wily Mo ran out of options.

IIRC, it was asked so often, we put the answer to it in the Redszone FAQ. :laugh:

IslandRed
05-01-2006, 12:56 AM
Again though. A contract can say whatever the 2 parties want it to say. it also mentions a handshake agreement. See how binding that was. So, do you know 100% for a fact there was no such agreement?

Hal's exact phrase was:


Because he was traded in the midst of a long-term contract, he has the option of becoming a free agent after the season.

There's nothing in there that implies that it's specific to Arroyo's contract. Quite the opposite, in fact, he's using the "of course everyone knows this, it's the rule" tone. But the rule doesn't apply to Arroyo.

I mean, really... Is it more likely that Hal is unaware of that qualifier to the rule, the same mistake many other people have made, or that Bronson Arroyo has the only contract in the history of the free-agent era that allows him to demand a trade and go free agent before he's eligible to do that?

big boy
05-01-2006, 10:06 AM
Again that's the MLBPU agreement 5 years.

Arroyo has less than 3.

What's so hard about that?

Arroyo came up with the Pirates in 2000. How is service time computed? It seems like he would have over 3 years at this point.

flyer85
05-01-2006, 10:15 AM
if he was he is smoking it again.

from today


Q: I read Tom Archdeacon's column on Great American Ball Park as being Baby Coors and I feel that is unfair. — Dennis, New Palestine, Ind.

A: Arch was right on. Ask Reds manager Jerry Narron if he believes GABP is Home Run Heaven and you get an emphatic, "Yes, it is." You included a mind-boggling stack of facts and figures in your e-mail about pitching and runs scored, but here are the bald facts: The 681 home runs hit at GABP since its birth in 2003 is the third highest in major-league baseball during that time, behind U.S. Cellular (Chicago White Sox) and Ameriquest Field (Texas). Notice that Coors Field isn't in the Top Three. Only once in GABP history has there been two straight games without at least one home run. While hitters never rest their bats in GABP, I rest my case.

Of course the question was not "is GABP homerun heaven" but "is it Baby Coors". GABP does increase HRs although not as much as Coors.

However, what makes Coors the best offensive park in baseball is it increases singles, doubles , triples and HRs. GABP suppresses singles, doubles and triples which is why it ends up playing as almost a neutral offensive park.

Of course Hal wouldn't know anything about that because he doesn't do any research which the Arroyo and GABP comments show. With just a little effort he could have found out the correct answer but to some ignorance is bliss.

IslandRed
05-01-2006, 10:31 AM
Arroyo came up with the Pirates in 2000. How is service time computed? It seems like he would have over 3 years at this point.

You only get service time for days actually spent on the 25-man (or the big club's DL).

KronoRed
05-01-2006, 04:08 PM
I love how the horrible pitching is never mentioned when talking about GABP's homer friendliness.

flyer85
05-01-2006, 04:20 PM
I love how the horrible pitching is never mentioned when talking about GABP's homer friendliness.it is an HR friendly park(those same pitchers have to pitch on the road) but it is a neutral park(+/- 5%) and that is even with its HR friendly confines.

BRM
05-01-2006, 04:22 PM
it is an HR friendly park(those same pitchers have to pitch on the road) but it is a neutral park(+/- 5%) and that is even with its HR friendly confines.

I think most folks assume that a HR park is automatically a hitters park.

Ravenlord
05-01-2006, 04:28 PM
I think most folks assume that a HR park is automatically a hitters park.
usually is, but obviously not in the GABP's case. i think Kaufman Field or US Celluar Field plays that way too.

what the biggest problem in figuring the GABP's park effect is that it's had about 2000 innings worth of pitchers with woeful HR rates before going there, and the Reds lineup is full of guys who hit the ball a long, long way.

so the entire effect gets skewed.

M2
05-01-2006, 04:35 PM
what the biggest problem in figuring the GABP's park effect is that it's had about 2000 innings worth of pitchers with woeful HR rates before going there, and the Reds lineup is full of guys who hit the ball a long, long way.

so the entire effect gets skewed.

The Reds could make the Grand Canyon look like a HR-friendly park.

BRM
05-01-2006, 04:38 PM
The Reds could make the Grand Canyon look like a HR-friendly park.

You mean employing bad fly ball pitchers and power hitters is the root cause behind GABP being HR friendly? Who woulda thunk it?

Sea Ray
05-01-2006, 04:39 PM
Hal's problem, I think, is his eyesight. Due to this problem he can't search the net like we can or even read a newspaper very well. This is limiting his knowledge and regretably should be the impetus for him to hang it up. He goes to Reds games and only learns things from interviews and talking to others.

Ravenlord
05-01-2006, 04:40 PM
You mean employing bad fly ball pitchers and power hitters is the root cause behind GABP being HR friendly? Who woulda thunk it?

Branch Rickey?

Chip R
05-01-2006, 05:06 PM
Hal's problem, I think, is his eyesight. Due to this problem he can't search the net like we can or even read a newspaper very well. This is limiting his knowledge and regretably should be the impetus for him to hang it up. He goes to Reds games and only learns things from interviews and talking to others.

I understand that. But the problem really isn't Hal. It's his editor - or lack thereof. Now I don't really have that much insight on how the newspaper business works but I would imagine that journalists who have been at it as long as Hal has and who have accumulated the honors he has don't get edited as much as someone who has joined the paper out of college. I would guess that someone with Hal's senority would be upset if he were edited like someone who is still wet behind the ears. But there is editing to change the length and intent of the story and there is editing to just correct spelling and factual errors. Perhaps telling Hal that he made a mistake in one of his articles is like telling Jr. that he's playing left field tomorrow. It could be that the person in charge of that particular task is just wanting to avoid a confrontation. But I can't help but think that Hal would be appreciative of someone correcting a mistake of his before it went to press. It would sure help him look better. Instead of there being whispers behind his back saying the old man has lost it, those same people would be saying, by God the old man still has it.

westofyou
05-01-2006, 05:10 PM
You mean employing bad fly ball pitchers and power hitters is the root cause behind GABP being HR friendly? Who woulda thunk it?
Slim Sallee

dfs
05-01-2006, 05:24 PM
A quick look through copies of the recent Dayton Daily News assures me that beyond spell checking and such there is no editing going on in the sports page. The DDN actually sends another writer to submit game stories. Hal has been reduced to sniffing around asking sources and such.

traderumor
05-01-2006, 05:33 PM
Just so everyone can sleep easier tonight, Hal now knows of the error :)


My bad. You are right. Her doesn’t not (sic) have enough service time and I’m glad of it.
Hal


On 4/30/06 1:10 PM, <traderumor> wrote:

Hal,

I hope you are not inundated with such corrections, but Arroyo is not eligible to be a free agent at the end of this year as a result of the trade. He does not have enough service time to qualify for that options.

Sincerely,

traderumor
Newark, OH

M2
05-01-2006, 06:13 PM
I understand that. But the problem really isn't Hal. It's his editor - or lack thereof. Now I don't really have that much insight on how the newspaper business works but I would imagine that journalists who have been at it as long as Hal has and who have accumulated the honors he has don't get edited as much as someone who has joined the paper out of college. I would guess that someone with Hal's senority would be upset if he were edited like someone who is still wet behind the ears. But there is editing to change the length and intent of the story and there is editing to just correct spelling and factual errors. Perhaps telling Hal that he made a mistake in one of his articles is like telling Jr. that he's playing left field tomorrow. It could be that the person in charge of that particular task is just wanting to avoid a confrontation. But I can't help but think that Hal would be appreciative of someone correcting a mistake of his before it went to press. It would sure help him look better. Instead of there being whispers behind his back saying the old man has lost it, those same people would be saying, by God the old man still has it.

Excellent post. Your assumption is right. Once you become an institution you get a wide berth from the editors. Basically they have the copy desk scan the article for typos and let it run.

It's a real bind for a paper like the DDN where Hal's a blue whale in a duck pond. Smaller papers are bleeding readers and they almost have to let their remaining "name" writers run amok, anything to preserve their dwindling cache in the community.

That said, I've never seen a writer get as sloppy as Hal's been over the past year. He commits an alarming number of gaffes. I'll guarantee you a lot of this probably revolves around when he files and when the to-print deadline falls. His eyesight might be causing him to cut that deadline extremely close.

I certainly don't envy the folks trying to sort all this out. There probably isn't an easy fix on any front. All I know is that I've never worked at a publication where these kinds of flubs were considered tolerable.

Doc. Scott
05-01-2006, 06:44 PM
:D That is hilarious!!!!

You guys have such imagination... how do you come up with this stuff? You should be a stand-up comic or something.

Now that I know WOY in person.... no, he's not that funny. :D

Doc. Scott
05-01-2006, 06:46 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/1999/0908/46397.html

A player with five years of service time who is traded in the middle of a multi-year contract may demand another trade prior to the start of the season following the one in which he was traded.




http://www.mlb4u.com/cin.html


Took 5 minutes to look that up.


Now, wait a second. Arroyo has been in the big leagues for all of the last two seasons, plus large chunks of several others. 2.15 years is not enough time.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/arroybr01.shtml

This site says 3.15 years. Still seems a little short, but closer.

No matter how you slice it, though, he's definitely under five and that's all that matters.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/cincinnati-reds_24.html

MartyFan
05-01-2006, 07:53 PM
The Reds need not worry about Hals fact checking gaffes, that's his editors problem, if Hal wants to write that Arroyo has 5 nipples and ferret named Little Papi, that lives in Dunns shower slippers then let him go ahead and do it.

The Press is the press and the Reds are a baseball team, I doubt either one is in the position to tell the other how to run their business (though Hal tries his best)

Okay, I did some checking on thisone and you were pretty close...The ferrits name is actually Little Theo and lives in a corner box with a suspended swing inthe corner of Arroyo's locker space...Dunn Shower slippers as it turns out are where Danny Graves dignity is staying.

Matt700wlw
05-01-2006, 09:11 PM
Marty has cleared it up. Arroyo does not have 5 years of service in the majors at the time of the deal, therefore he cannot ask for a trade or become a FA after this season. Bronson Arroyo is the Reds property (if the Reds choose) through to the 2008 season.

This thread can be closed now.

:D

Nugget
05-01-2006, 11:23 PM
This could turn into the next "Can they restructure WMP's contract" question!

TeamBoone
05-04-2006, 03:20 PM
Aha! Looks like our emails did the trick!


Arroyo under control

In Sunday's Ask Hal, it was inaccurately written that because pitcher Bronson Arroyo was traded while in the middle of a multi-year contract, he was eligible for free agency after this season. It created a furor and a stir among fandom and in the Reds front office.

Actually, to be eligible for free agency Arroyo would need five years of major-league service and he entered this season with more than two years.

So the Reds still control his contract after this season.

He signed a three-year $11.25 million contract on January 1, 2006 with the Boston Red Sox that goes through the 2008 season a $750,000 signing bonus and $2.75 million this year, $3.8 million next year and $3.95 million in 2008.

In addition, he can earn $1 million in performance bonuses. What makes it even better for the Reds is that Boston pays $1.5 million of his salary this season.

Right now, that contract can be called The Bargain of the Century.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0504redsnotesweb.html

redsmetz
05-04-2006, 04:24 PM
Okay, I did some checking on thisone and you were pretty close...The ferrits name is actually Little Theo and lives in a corner box with a suspended swing inthe corner of Arroyo's locker space...Dunn Shower slippers as it turns out are where Danny Graves dignity is staying.

So it's true that Bronson has 5 nipples? That's two more than Chandler Bing has! :eek:

Chip R
05-04-2006, 05:15 PM
So it's true that Bronson has 5 nipples? That's two more than Chandler Bing has! :eek:

A good dairy cow should have, like, 4.