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View Full Version : Guess too quick to give White the axe huh?



GOREDSGO32
05-04-2006, 11:16 PM
He's got his ERA back down to around his career numbers .. in the low 4's ... guess sometimes you shouldn't be quick to pull the plug on someone.

Also of note Hammond is 'down' to 13 ERA ... which is good considering it was 169 .. he has only given up 1 run in his past 4 appearances ... which have been very few, but improved nonetheless.

harangatang
05-04-2006, 11:25 PM
He's got his ERA back down to around his career numbers .. in the low 4's ... guess sometimes you shouldn't be quick to pull the plug on someone.

Also of note Hammond is 'down' to 13 ERA ... which is good considering it was 169 .. he has only given up 1 run in his past 4 appearances ... which have been very few, but improved nonetheless.
You know Rick White this year reminds me of David Weathers last year. Weathers started off horrible and people wanted him cut from the team and then he settled down and ended up becoming the closer after Graves was cut. I don't think White will end up as the closer by any means but I think he'll settle in to a middle relief role in the bullpen.

Big Klu
05-04-2006, 11:41 PM
The only thing is, I truly believe that the Reds do not need 12 pitchers on the roster! The think 11 pitchers can handle the workload just fine. (Case in point, Chris Hammond hadn't pitched in 10 days before pitching one inning in mop-up duty in Wednesday night's loss at Colorado. He has pitched only 6 innings all season.) In my opinion, carrying an unnecessary twelfth pitcher limits the flexibility of the bench.

Dunner44
05-04-2006, 11:44 PM
The only thing is, I truly believe that the Reds do not need 12 pitchers on the roster! The think 11 pitchers can handle the workload just fine. (Case in point, Chris Hammond hadn't pitched in 10 days before pitching one inning in mop-up duty in Wednesday night's loss at Colorado. He has pitched only 6 innings all season.) In my opinion, carrying an unnecessary twelfth pitcher limits the flexibility of the bench.

Yeah, and it takes the heat off trading the 3rd catcher, If we are going to move one of those guys, I think it will be closer to the deadline, as not a lot of teams seem interested in trading right now. Maybe, just maybe a pitcher will go down when griff comes back.

Sea Ray
05-04-2006, 11:50 PM
The only thing is, I truly believe that the Reds do not need 12 pitchers on the roster! The think 11 pitchers can handle the workload just fine. (Case in point, Chris Hammond hadn't pitched in 10 days before pitching one inning in mop-up duty in Wednesday night's loss at Colorado. He has pitched only 6 innings all season.) In my opinion, carrying an unnecessary twelfth pitcher limits the flexibility of the bench.

I couldn't agree more and I've never liked breaking camp with more than 11. If need be bring another guy in later. Actually I think the pitching has been better than they expected and they actually thought they'd need more "mop up" work. As it turns out we've rarely needed long relief and when we have Matt Belisle has filled in nicely. There's another name. How much has he worked in the past ten days? More evidence that they really don't need 12 pitchers.

GOREDSGO32
05-05-2006, 12:22 AM
I don't think they need 12 pitchers OR three catchers. Keep Denoforia and an infielder like Olmedo.

Dunner44
05-05-2006, 12:31 AM
I don't think they need 12 pitchers OR three catchers. Keep Denoforia and an infielder like Olmedo.

Except we don't need a 5th infielder either.

GOREDSGO32
05-05-2006, 12:36 AM
So everyone should be an outfielder then? Obviously thhe last two players on your roster aren't going to play much, no use arguing the finer points of which position you need 5th string guys at. I say keep the ones that will do the most in pinch hitting or pinch running situations, or if you need a 12th pitcher keep one to use at garbage time in blowouts.

CincyReds2003
05-05-2006, 12:48 AM
The only thing is, I truly believe that the Reds do not need 12 pitchers on the roster! The think 11 pitchers can handle the workload just fine. (Case in point, Chris Hammond hadn't pitched in 10 days before pitching one inning in mop-up duty in Wednesday night's loss at Colorado. He has pitched only 6 innings all season.) In my opinion, carrying an unnecessary twelfth pitcher limits the flexibility of the bench.


It's truly amazing that our relief pitching hasn't been very active this year. They are averaging 2.5 IP a game this season, and 1.4 IP the last 8 games. I don't think anyone could have predicted the strong performances they have experienced thus far.

Dunner44
05-05-2006, 12:52 AM
So everyone should be an outfielder then? Obviously thhe last two players on your roster aren't going to play much, no use arguing the finer points of which position you need 5th string guys at. I say keep the ones that will do the most in pinch hitting or pinch running situations, or if you need a 12th pitcher keep one to use at garbage time in blowouts.

I'd just rather see Deno than Olmedo, and I don't think the FO wants to let go of Q McC

NastyBoy
05-05-2006, 12:53 AM
The bullpen looks like it could play in a beer league.

VR
05-05-2006, 12:59 AM
The bullpen looks like it could play in a beer league.

Ironic connection there, nasty boy Randy Myers plays in my softball league for the local tavern. He bats cleanup, and usually plays shortstop as a lefty.

Big Klu
05-05-2006, 01:23 AM
Except we don't need a 5th infielder either.

Except it doesn't really come down to carrying an extra infielder for its own sake. It boils down to having an extra position player available, which means that the club can opt to platoon at a certain position or positions in order to match up better against opposing pitchers, or that an extra bat is available for pinch-hitting duty, or a player is available to pinch-run for a slower player (like our catchers), or someone can go into the game as a defensive replacement or as part or a double-switch without significantly weakening the depth on the bench or having to worry about running out of players. A five-man bench limits the number of moves a manager can make.


Remember, Lou Piniella had six, and sometimes seven players on his bench in 1990:
C Jeff Reed
1B Todd Benzinger (platooned with Hal Morris)
2B Ron Oester
3B/2B Luis Quiñones
OF Glenn Braggs (often platooned with Paul O'Neill in RF)
OF Herm Winningham

At times during the season, OF/1B Ken Griffey Sr. and later 2B Bill Doran was the seventh position player on the bench.


In my opinion, a sixth position player on the bench, strategically used, will win more games for a club than a seventh relief pitcher.

Dunner44
05-05-2006, 01:37 AM
Except it doesn't really come down to carrying an extra infielder for its own sake. It boils down to having an extra position player available, which means that the club can opt to platoon at a certain position or positions in order to match up better against opposing pitchers, or that an extra bat is available for pinch-hitting duty, or a player is available to pinch-run for a slower player (like our catchers), or someone can go into the game as a defensive replacement or as part or a double-switch without significantly weakening the depth on the bench or having to worry about running out of players. A five-man bench limits the number of moves a manager can make.


Remember, Lou Piniella had six, and sometimes seven players on his bench in 1990:
C Jeff Reed
1B Todd Benzinger (platooned with Hal Morris)
2B Ron Oester
3B/2B Luis Quiñones
OF Glenn Braggs (often platooned with Paul O'Neill in RF)
OF Herm Winningham

At times during the season, OF/1B Ken Griffey Sr. and later 2B Bill Doran was the seventh position player on the bench.


In my opinion, a sixth position player on the bench, strategically used, will win more games for a club than a seventh relief pitcher.

Sorry Klu, the comment wasn't directed towards having a short bench, just my personal opinion that I'd rather have Deno than Olmedo.... scroll down a bit, and you'll see it. But whatever...

Big Klu
05-05-2006, 01:43 AM
It's truly amazing that our relief pitching hasn't been very active this year. They are averaging 2.5 IP a game this season, and 1.4 IP the last 8 games. I don't think anyone could have predicted the strong performances they have experienced thus far.

No, I didn't anticipate the overall pitching to be this good so far, but I have never advocated carrying 12 pitchers. It is my opinion that the twelfth pitcher (that is, the seventh reliever) is universally a bad pitcher, no matter what staff he pitches for. Nobody has a good seventh reliever. Furthermore, I think a club does itself a disservice by pitching a seventh reliever (who is, by all accounts, a bad pitcher) because he is rarely effective, and he takes innings away from better pitchers. I firmly believe that a club should give its best pitchers as many innings as they can effectively handle.

Pitch your best pitchers the most! (Without going all Dusty Baker on them, of course! :D)

VR
05-05-2006, 01:46 AM
Except it doesn't really come down to carrying an extra infielder for its own sake. It boils down to having an extra position player available, which means that the club can opt to platoon at a certain position or positions in order to match up better against opposing pitchers, or that an extra bat is available for pinch-hitting duty, or a player is available to pinch-run for a slower player (like our catchers), or someone can go into the game as a defensive replacement or as part or a double-switch without significantly weakening the depth on the bench or having to worry about running out of players. A five-man bench limits the number of moves a manager can make.


Remember, Lou Piniella had six, and sometimes seven players on his bench in 1990:
C Jeff Reed
1B Todd Benzinger (platooned with Hal Morris)
2B Ron Oester
3B/2B Luis Quiñones
OF Glenn Braggs (often platooned with Paul O'Neill in RF)
OF Herm Winningham

At times during the season, OF/1B Ken Griffey Sr. and later 2B Bill Doran was the seventh position player on the bench.


In my opinion, a sixth position player on the bench, strategically used, will win more games for a club than a seventh relief pitcher.

A bit different makeup in 90, with the starters giving you almost 7 a night and the nasty boys shutting you down. If a quality, consistent #4 surfaces, I'm with you Klu, get another guy on the bench.

I love the quality bench approach Lou employed that year, with a great balance of power, speed, defense, and yes...scrappiness.

Big Klu
05-05-2006, 01:58 AM
Sorry Klu, the comment wasn't directed towards having a short bench, just my personal opinion that I'd rather have Deno than Olmedo.... scroll down a bit, and you'll see it. But whatever...

No problem. I was writing my response while you were posting your follow-up explanation, and I didn't see it.

Personally, I agree with you--I would also rather have Denorfia over Olmedo or McCracken. But I don't see why we can't have all of them for now--at least until we are at full strength health-wise. When someone (either Aurilia, Griffey, or C. Ross) comes off the DL, then we should make room for him by moving a pitcher first (probably Hammond). Olmedo and McCracken would then go to make room for the other two--provided there were no other injuries and/or trades.

But I agree that Denorfia should be up permanently.

CincyReds2003
05-05-2006, 02:52 PM
No, I didn't anticipate the overall pitching to be this good so far, but I have never advocated carrying 12 pitchers. It is my opinion that the twelfth pitcher (that is, the seventh reliever) is universally a bad pitcher, no matter what staff he pitches for. Nobody has a good seventh reliever. Furthermore, I think a club does itself a disservice by pitching a seventh reliever (who is, by all accounts, a bad pitcher) because he is rarely effective, and he takes innings away from better pitchers. I firmly believe that a club should give its best pitchers as many innings as they can effectively handle.

Pitch your best pitchers the most! (Without going all Dusty Baker on them, of course! :D)



Big Klu...I wasn't disagreeing with your statement at all, I just think its amazing that we are having a discussion concerning too many relief pitchers on our staff. We would have never had this discussion in the previous years and it just shows how our staff has kicked butt all year. I agree that Hammond has to go, and we should get another bench player.(from Louisville, or keep Denorfia when Jr or Aurilla gets back)

knuckler
05-05-2006, 03:27 PM
Also of note Hammond is 'down' to 13 ERA ... which is good considering it was 169 ..

And that sentence, my friends, is the very essence of being a Reds fan.