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View Full Version : Could Tom Browning Help Dave Williams?



redsmetz
05-11-2006, 11:37 AM
I've tried finding some information about Tom Browning because I always had the sense that he wasn't a tremendously hard thrower, but rather made his career out of gutsy, smart pitching. I know he came down at Spring Training and worked with some of the pitchers, but I wonder if he couldn't be of some particularly help with Dave Williams. I know. I know, there are those of you who would say he's beyond help, but hey, he's here, lets find a way through this nightmare.

In looking at Browning's stats, you can see he was a workhorse. Baseball-reference shows he led the majors in starts in four seasons. But he also led the majors in home runs allowed three times and earned runs once. In all, he won nearly 125 games for the Reds, finishing with a .577 record.

Just a question I had.

Joseph
05-11-2006, 11:41 AM
I certainly do not think he could hurt Dave Williams.

Just saying.

ochre
05-11-2006, 11:45 AM
Are you talking arm transplant? If so, I'm not sure Browning is licensed for that procedure.

Falls City Beer
05-11-2006, 11:48 AM
I'm sure Tom could show him how to break his own arm.

kyle1976
05-11-2006, 11:56 AM
Browning could probably out pitch Williams right now. I do believe Williams is beyond hope. I've seen him pitch almost every game this year and I see complete mediocracy with pretty much no potential. Hopefully, we'll only have to suffer through his opponent batting practice sessions a couple more times, because I have to believe he's gone when Milty returns.

westofyou
05-11-2006, 11:59 AM
I always had the sense that he wasn't a tremendously hard thrower, but rather made his career out of gutsy, smart pitching.Who had a trick pitch as an out pitch (screwball) Dave Williams needs an out pitch.

But organizations eschew teaching the screwball these days.

membengal
05-11-2006, 11:59 AM
Just a side note here about how old I am all of a sudden...RedsMetz wrote the initial post as if he doesn't remember seeing Browning pitch. As a 35-year-old life-long fan...wow. I guess I am old.

At any rate, Brownings stuff wasn't overpowering, but it also wasn't anything like what Williams throws. Browning knew how to challenge hitters, and was deceptive while still commanding the strike zone. He would make hitters swing at his pitch, more often than not, when he was on, rather than serving them a cripple pitch. I just don't know how much of that is teachable to Dave Williams. Browning always had, IMO, pretty superior mental toughness, and could think his way through a game as well as any Reds pitcher in the last 20 years or so. And, as woy pointed out, the scroogie as a great out pitch. When he had it working, he could be, well, perfect.

Then again, perhaps my aging memory of Browing is faulty...

redsmetz
05-11-2006, 11:59 AM
Are you talking arm transplant? If so, I'm not sure Browning is licensed for that procedure.

Well and Tom did take some stitches during a game (right on the field, as I recall) and kept pitching.

deltachi8
05-11-2006, 12:04 PM
He could recommend a couple good places to score weed.

Highlifeman21
05-11-2006, 12:13 PM
I certainly do not think he could hurt Dave Williams.

Just saying.


Can ANYTHING hurt Williams? I look at him as our one pitcher who has nowhere to go but up!

2001MUgrad
05-11-2006, 12:49 PM
Nothing could help Dave Williams IMO.

But, if memory serves me right Browning could on the ocassion hit 90 or 91 MPH, but he usually threw around 87 or 88.

Carbofan
05-11-2006, 12:56 PM
Fred Norman was a soft throwing lefty that threw a screwball and had success for the Reds in the 70's. Maybe Williams could develop that screwball. Norman actually was more effective against righties than lefties as the screwball broke away from the righties. One thing though, if williams cannot locate the pitch, he won't be successful no matter what he is throwing.

TeamBoone
05-11-2006, 01:19 PM
He appears to have helped Milton, so it probably couldn't hurt.

Hopefully, someone in the organization has thought of this and will take some action (though, you'd think they would have enough foresight to have done it already).


Reds' Milton tries out other side
Ex-Red Browning offers fellow lefty a pitching suggestion

SARASOTA, Fla. — Call it “The Moving of Eric Milton.”

Guest instructor Tom Browning, a left-hander who knows a thing or four about pitching, watched lefty Milton throw at the Cincinnati Reds spring training complex and decided to make a suggestion.

Browning saw Milton standing on the third-base side of the pitching rubber. Browning pitched with his foot on the first-base side of the rubber.

Uncertain about the reception, Browning approached Milton cautiously, but discovered he is ready to stand on his head and whistle “Sweet Home Alabama” while chewing Saltines if it will help him avoid what happened last year: 8-15 with a 6.47 earned-run average in 34 starts.

“I tried it out while throwing batting practice Friday,” Milton said. “It felt good. I’ve always had good control, so it didn’t throw me off. (Coach) Billy Connors moved me to the third-base side when I pitched with the Yankees.

“I throw across my body, and he thought it would be easier to get inside on right-handed hitters,” Milton said. “With Browning’s theory, by moving to the first-base side, it is farther to throw to get inside on a right-hander, but the angle is better. It seemed like (Friday) they weren’t getting very good swings, not seeing pitches inside, so it is encouraging.”

Milton plans to stick with it for the time being.

Browning said he sat with Milton before batting practice Friday, “And we tossed things back and forth. I wanted to open him up to a different side to change the angle of his delivery. I told him, ‘I don’t think you understand how much more effective you can be against right-handers on the first-base side.’ ”

Browning said the move should make his cut fastball more effective and enable him to more easily jam right-handers. Last year, Milton started too many of his pitches over the plate, “And that wasn’t good in that baby ballpark (Great American Ball Park) we play in.”

Milton gave up 40 home runs, 35 to right-handers, who hit .302 against him.

http://www.journal-news.com/sports/c...6reds_web.html

redsmetz
05-11-2006, 01:37 PM
Fred Norman was a soft throwing lefty that threw a screwball and had success for the Reds in the 70's. Maybe Williams could develop that screwball. Norman actually was more effective against righties than lefties as the screwball broke away from the righties. One thing though, if williams cannot locate the pitch, he won't be successful no matter what he is throwing.

I hadn't thought about Norman, but if we could get Williams to put up Norman like numbers (and he was a middling pitcher on some pretty good teams), then I think that's a plus. I noticed that Pete Harnisch comes up as comparable to Freddie Norman too. Where are these guys these days? Help us, Obie Wan Kenobi!

westofyou
05-11-2006, 02:07 PM
Fred Norman was a soft throwing lefty that threw a screwball and had success for the Reds in the 70's. Maybe Williams could develop that screwball. Norman actually was more effective against righties than lefties as the screwball broke away from the righties. One thing though, if williams cannot locate the pitch, he won't be successful no matter what he is throwing.
Norman threw that earlier in his career and the Padres wouldn't let him, when the Reds got him they had him return it to his pitch selection. Since he hadn't thrown it he was happen to pitch later in his career than most screwballers, who tend to mess up their arms more than the others.

BuckU
05-11-2006, 03:01 PM
I don't know if Sandy Koufax could help Williams

Carbofan
05-11-2006, 03:11 PM
The screwball does mess up the elbow as it is an unnatural twist of the arm. You turn the hand in and down to throw the pitch and it is quite straining.

Spitball
05-11-2006, 03:53 PM
I don't know about teaching Williams a screwball, but Browning knew how to pitch. He worked fast (as did his mentor, Jim Kaat), changed speeds and eye levels, and threw strikes. He had that screwgie, but Tom Glavine credits Browning's approach for much of his own success. It was during a Browning shutout of the Braves in the early '90's that Glavine asked Sid Bream what made Browning so tough. Bream told him and the rest is history...Of course, it would also be great if the umps would expand Williams's strike zone five inches on the outside corner. ;)

Maybe the Reds should get Jim Kaat out of the Yankee broadcast booth. He was the guy who taught Browning. I've always wondered why Kaat could turn Browning into a twenty game winner and then leave the coaching profession.

Mario-Rijo
05-11-2006, 05:59 PM
It certainly couldn't hurt. Dave Williams sure isn't helping Dave Williams!