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OnBaseMachine
05-13-2006, 07:35 AM
While listening to the game on the radio on my way to work last night, Marty mentioned something that Narron told him. He said that he likes the patience that the team has showed this year, but he wants Adam Dunn to start chasing more pitches out of the strikezone in an attempt to drive in more runs. Unbelievable. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. EVER! Stupid, stupid, stupid. It's amazing how many people in this organizaton have attempted to ruin Dunn. They screwed up his second half of 2002 and all of 2003, and now it appears 2006 could be added to the list.

I have noticed that Dunn has been chasing more pitches this year than he typically does, now I know why. Unreal. Narron would have found a way to screw up Babe Ruth, Mike Schmidt, Reggie Jackson, Jim Thome, and Harmon Killebrew, too, had he coached them. Afterall, they all struckout a lot.

Narron has got to go, NOW! No one should tell Dunn what to do except Chambliss.

Adam Dunn is not a bad ball hitter. Leave him alone and watch him put up huge numbers.

RANDY IN INDY
05-13-2006, 08:00 AM
I'm sure that Jerry Narron said that he wants Adam Dunn to start chasing pitches out of the strikezone. Amazing.:rolleyes:

OnBaseMachine
05-13-2006, 08:06 AM
I'm sure that Jerry Narron said that he wants Adam Dunn to start chasing pitches out of the strikezone. Amazing.:rolleyes:

Well, I guess Marty lied on radio then because that's exactly what he said.

:rolleyes:

RANDY IN INDY
05-13-2006, 08:50 AM
I don't think that any major league manager is going to tell his players to chase pitches out of the strikezone. With Narron, it goes directly against what his hitting coach is telling his hitters to do. If I am wrong, I'll gladly apologize. He may want Dunn to be more agressive on balls in the strikezone, but I highly doubt that he is telling him to chase balls out of the strikezone. The statement is totally ridiculous.

kyle1976
05-13-2006, 10:09 AM
I'm guessing Marty curbed the truth a bit about what Narron said because he's sick and tired of watching Dunn blaze his trail towards 200 k's.

Hoosier Red
05-13-2006, 10:24 AM
Actually it was in the pre game show. The question which was a follow up to EE's great at bat ending in a walk was:
MARTY: Your team seems to be a lot more patient this year.
NARRON: Yes, it comes from having guys who are such patient hitters, Hatteberg, Dunn both take a lot of pitches and that's good. He did say that they'd like for Dunn to swing at some pitches out of the zone. Also said he'd like for Felipe to be more aggressive in certain situations.

I know this is the first time it's happened on Redszone, but I think people are missing the forest for the trees.
Narron mentioned all the good things that come with being patient, getting on base, running up starters pitch counts etc. but implied where there are certain situations where it can pay off to be more aggressive.

I'll agree Adam Dunn isn't a "bad ball" hitter but are there certain pitches, even technically out of the strike zone that Dunn can or should be able to drive?

Certainly there is some middle ground to be found correct?

reds44
05-13-2006, 10:55 AM
I'm sure that Jerry Narron said that he wants Adam Dunn to start chasing pitches out of the strikezone. Amazing.:rolleyes:
Yeah I doubt that. He probably said swing at more pitches in the strike zone.

smith288
05-13-2006, 10:57 AM
If I was Dunn, I would shake my head but then turn around and just continue to do what I do.

joshnky
05-13-2006, 11:04 AM
With the way the umps have been calling balls and strikes lately he may need to swing at a few pitches on the edge of his strikezone that the ump will call strikes. I don't have any problems with Dunn but he may have to adjust to expanding strike zones.

Cedric
05-13-2006, 11:16 AM
While listening to the game on the radio on my way to work last night, Marty mentioned something that Narron told him. He said that he likes the patience that the team has showed this year, but he wants Adam Dunn to start chasing more pitches out of the strikezone in an attempt to drive in more runs. Unbelievable. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. EVER! Stupid, stupid, stupid. It's amazing how many people in this organizaton have attempted to ruin Dunn. They screwed up his second half of 2002 and all of 2003, and now it appears 2006 could be added to the list.

I have noticed that Dunn has been chasing more pitches this year than he typically does, now I know why. Unreal. Narron would have found a way to screw up Babe Ruth, Mike Schmidt, Reggie Jackson, Jim Thome, and Harmon Killebrew, too, had he coached them. Afterall, they all struckout a lot.

Narron has got to go, NOW! No one should tell Dunn what to do except Chambliss.

Adam Dunn is not a bad ball hitter. Leave him alone and watch him put up huge numbers.

Are you serious or being sarcastic? What in the world can Adam Dunn do wrong? He rises as a hall of famer on his own accord and anytime he fails it's someone else's fault. What a perfect setup.

cincinnati chili
05-13-2006, 11:18 AM
Marty keeps saying he should "expand his zone." Whether that means expand it WITHIN the strike zone or BEYOND the strike zone is a matter of debate.

KYRedsFan
05-13-2006, 11:26 AM
Easy on the messenger. Marty certainly relayed it as Narron stating that Dunn could benefit from chasing pitches out of the zone. Whether he said that and whether you agree with it is a different matter, but spare other posters the roll eyes fun.

redsmetz
05-13-2006, 11:28 AM
Actually it was in the pre game show. The question which was a follow up to EE's great at bat ending in a walk was:
MARTY: Your team seems to be a lot more patient this year.
NARRON: Yes, it comes from having guys who are such patient hitters, Hatteberg, Dunn both take a lot of pitches and that's good. He did say that they'd like for Dunn to swing at some pitches out of the zone. Also said he'd like for Felipe to be more aggressive in certain situations.

I know this is the first time it's happened on Redszone, but I think people are missing the forest for the trees.
Narron mentioned all the good things that come with being patient, getting on base, running up starters pitch counts etc. but implied where there are certain situations where it can pay off to be more aggressive.

I'll agree Adam Dunn isn't a "bad ball" hitter but are there certain pitches, even technically out of the strike zone that Dunn can or should be able to drive?

Certainly there is some middle ground to be found correct?

Precisely. While Adam has certainly had good home run years and the last two years have been great RBI wise, I think Dunn could move into the upper echolons of RBI hitters, even just for the Reds. He's top 100 the last two years, but the Top 10 for the Reds all are at 125+ and I think that's what Narron's talking about - not flailing away, but taking a pitch that's borderline and doing something with it. Note Dunn's lack of sac flies in previous years. That sort of thing.

Here's the Reds Top 10 RBI leaders - some pretty good hitters (and I remember Deron Johnson's year, I was 10 years old that summer - he led the league that season, as I recall).


Rank Player RBI Year
1. George Foster 149 1977
2. Johnny Bench 148 1970
3. Ted Kluszewski 141 1954
4. Frank Robinson 136 1962
5. Deron Johnson 130 1965
6. Johnny Bench 129 1974
Tony Perez 129 1970
8. Frank McCormick 128 1939
9. Frank McCormick 127 1940
10. Johnny Bench 125 1972
Dave Parker 125 1985
Frank Robinson 125 1959

Crash Davis
05-13-2006, 11:32 AM
Chicken Little? Is the sky falling again?

What's being overlooked is the fact that Jerry Narron is right. There ARE circumstances where Adam Dunn should be more aggressive.

Contrary to some belief, there IS room for improvement in Adam Dunn's game. I love the guy. He's our franchise player. But that doesn't mean there aren't holes in his game.

Narron doesn't want Dunn up there hacking if he's leading off an inning...or with two outs and nobody on. What he's saying is that Dunn, who has been less of a hitter in his career with runners in scoring position than he should be, could stand to swing the bat with authority earlier in the count rather than waiting for two strikes and being forced to swing at the pitcher's pitch...which is just common baseball sense in that situation, n'est pas?

One thing I've noticed the past two seasons is that Dunn has come out of the gate to start the season more aggressively...only a week or two later to drop into the funk of letting good pitches go by earlier in the count. The last two years, he's opened April by swinging early in the count, and the results were fantastic. By late April, he's letting some pretty tasty strikes go by -- pitches he was swinging at when he was rolling a couple of weeks ago. It could be because he gets in the habit of waiting "solely" for his perfect pitch since he's hitting HRs at a frequent rate. I don't know, just an observation.

westofyou
05-13-2006, 12:02 PM
One thing I've noticed the past two seasons is that Dunn has come out of the gate to start the season more aggressively...only a week or two later to drop into the funk of letting good pitches go by earlier in the count. The last two years, he's opened April by swinging early in the count, and the results were fantastic. By late April, he's letting some pretty tasty strikes go by -- pitches he was swinging at when he was rolling a couple of weeks ago. It could be because he gets in the habit of waiting "solely" for his perfect pitch since he's hitting HRs at a frequent rate. I don't know, just an observation.

May has been a Dunn beat down for quite some time.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35912

dougflynn23
05-13-2006, 12:11 PM
:confused: The White Sox told Frank Thomas the same thing in the early 1990's. Fortunately he blew them off, but Thomas hit .330+ when he got a pitch to hit. I'm sure the frustration with Narron is the sub-.200 BA with RISP and the overall .250 or so BA. What bothers me is that it isn't Adam Dunn being concerned with his career track. He seems to be content with his results, which are very good, but could be off the charts. I don't care about the 175+ K's, I just want to see a .250 BA in RISP situations. If I'm down by 2, Dunn's up with a runner on, I want contact.

Falls City Beer
05-13-2006, 12:17 PM
Managers will come and go and will probably all say the same thing to Dunn. He'll largely do what he wants to do, which is produce at an all-star level. I'm not worried about Dunn in the least. Though gnats like Narron should definitely find a new horse to pester; not that I think Narron affects his game, but that his pestering could actually be put to good use on some of the underachieving players.

kyle1976
05-13-2006, 12:47 PM
I agree with dflynn23, could Dunn just match his batting average when there are runners in scoring position? .240 or .250? That's not asking much. And what makes it worse, is he usually doesn't even make contact with RISP. With his talent and constant opportunities, he should easily be up there challenging George Foster for most RBI's in a year (149). I think Dunn is underachieving big time and hasn't improved at all in the past few years, especially his defense. Watching Dunn strikeout with a man on third with less than 2 outs time and time again makes me want to :barf: . His home runs are great and all, but how about some more clutch RBI's for a change.

RedEye
05-13-2006, 12:56 PM
At least he's not batting him leadoff.

westofyou
05-13-2006, 01:00 PM
he should easily be up there challenging George Foster for most RBI's in a year (149)

The Reds have had FIVE guys ever with 130 RBI's in a season, and Foster was the last one, there is nothing "easy" about that, you have to bat with runners on constantly and be in a groove that is otherworldy.

Patrick Bateman
05-13-2006, 01:10 PM
I agree with dflynn23, could Dunn just match his batting average when there are runners in scoring position? .240 or .250? That's not asking much. And what makes it worse, is he usually doesn't even make contact with RISP. With his talent and constant opportunities, he should easily be up there challenging George Foster for most RBI's in a year (149). I think Dunn is underachieving big time and hasn't improved at all in the past few years, especially his defense. Watching Dunn strikeout with a man on third with less than 2 outs time and time again makes me want to :barf: . His home runs are great and all, but how about some more clutch RBI's for a change.

Batting average does not correlate to runs scored, even with RISP. With men on base SLG is a more viable stat to look at, and Dunn has plenty of it. I'm not sure why the fuss over the best hitter on the team while he's actually produced this year.

Cyclone792
05-13-2006, 01:33 PM
Even for hitters, BABIP is drawn quite a bit from luck than skill. While it appears that hitters are able to control their BABIP a little bit more than pitchers can, there is still quite a bit of luck involved.

The league average is .300, and in some seasons a hitter is able to hit for a BABIP well over .300, only to see themselves drop well below .300 the following season (and then right back up in yet another season).

All that said, take a look at which seasons stand out in BABIP:

Dunn 2001: .298 BABIP
Dunn 2002: .316 BABIP
Dunn 2003: .241 BABIP
Dunn 2004: .321 BABIP
Dunn 2005: .281 BABIP
Dunn 2006: .231 BABIP

Dunn Career: .291 BABIP

In 2003, when Dunn batted a skinny .215 and people really began railing on his batting average, it was caused by the luck driven BABIP factor, and for the season his BABIP was only .241. Likewise, so far this season Dunn is hitting .228, and people are probably beginning to get ticked off. However, his BABIP is only .231, which is extremely unlucky. It is very likely that over the rest of this season Dunn's BABIP will rise to the norm, and when it does his batting average will also creep a bit higher than .228.

Of course, we still have to talk about actual production, and as far as actual production goes, Dunn's still producing big. Right now in 2006 his season RC/27 mark is 9.59, and his best full season RC/27 was 2004 at 8.99 RC/27.

Dunn's still producing big this season; he's just not doing it in the fashion that the casual fan prefers.

Redmachine2003
05-13-2006, 02:54 PM
With the way the umps have been calling balls and strikes lately he may need to swing at a few pitches on the edge of his strikezone that the ump will call strikes. I don't have any problems with Dunn but he may have to adjust to expanding strike zones.
I agree with this Dunn just needs to expand his strike Zone. He takes too many pitches that he should be able to drive. Dunn has great strike zone coverage with those long arms and the long bat he uses he could do lot of damage to the outside pitch if he would go the other way. If Kearns can adjust and drive the ball the other way when they pitch him outside and make the adjustment again when they start busting him inside by going up the middle or pulling the ball when they come inside, then Dunn needs to learn how to do the same thing. I also would like to see Dunn use a shorter bat like what Bonds uses too.

kyle1976
05-13-2006, 03:40 PM
I also would like to see Dunn use a shorter bat like what Bonds uses too.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100%.

kyle1976
05-13-2006, 03:54 PM
Austin Kearns, do you ever watch Reds games? I doubt you do because if you did, you'd realize how frustrating watching Dunn is. His two homers a week don't satisfy me. I want RBI's when there are men on third with less than 2 outs. Not too much to ask. He's had 3 sac fly's in his last 1000+ at bats. That's pitiful. He's a very good player, obviously, just not clutch. One of the main reasons why the Reds are winning this year is they are doing the little things. Getting guys on, moving them over, and getting them in. That's how you consistently win. I just wish Dunn would make contact, anywhere, when guys are in scoring position with less than two outs.

wheels
05-13-2006, 04:00 PM
A shorter bat?

Now I HAVE heard it all.

SteelSD
05-13-2006, 04:14 PM
A shorter bat?

Now I HAVE heard it all.

Aw, c'mon, wheels. We all know that shorter bats help players hit more pitches outside the strike zone...y'know...like that Bonds guy. He's always swinging at Balls instead of Strikes. It's what's made him such a fearsome hitter...and stuff...;)

And as to the original topic...

Narron has always demonstrated that he's a guy who kinda' sorta' half gets it. He'll say something that actually does make sense to give ya' some hope. But then he'll follow it up with something completely nonsensical. Problem is that those folks can end up doing more harm than good because they tend coach and manage in an indiscriminate fashion without considering the differences between individual player styles. That's why we see implementation of behavior coaching that one hitter can pull off regardless of whether or not it's a good idea while another shouldn't even be given the direction in the first place.

BCubb2003
05-13-2006, 04:19 PM
I want RBI's when there are men on third with less than 2 outs.

Can someone explain this? Dunn has 9 at bats this year in that situation. He has no hits, 2 walks, 5 strikeouts -- and 4 rbis. Nearly half the time he's been in that situation, he drives in a run.

KronoRed
05-13-2006, 04:31 PM
If I was Dunn, I would shake my head but then turn around and just continue to do what I do.
That's exactly what he should do.

Bob Boone tried this exact same thing with Dunn during his .215 season.

Dunn is Dunn, why can't people just let it go and worry about real problems? like the horrible bullpen and nonexistent back end of the rotation.

pedro
05-13-2006, 04:35 PM
Austin Kearns, do you ever watch Reds games? I doubt you do because if you did, you'd realize how frustrating watching Dunn is. His two homers a week don't satisfy me. I want RBI's when there are men on third with less than 2 outs. Not too much to ask. He's had 3 sac fly's in his last 1000+ at bats. That's pitiful. He's a very good player, obviously, just not clutch. One of the main reasons why the Reds are winning this year is they are doing the little things. Getting guys on, moving them over, and getting them in. That's how you consistently win. I just wish Dunn would make contact, anywhere, when guys are in scoring position with less than two outs.

I agree that Dunn can be frustrating to watch but just because a player is frustrating to watch doesn't mean that he's not producing. It's just that he produces in a way different from most other ball players and sometimes it's easy to forget about all the runs that he produces in other situations and focus only on those situations such as a a man on third and less than two outs which really don't happen as often as you'd think.

TeamBoone
05-13-2006, 04:49 PM
And then there's this (which I stole from another thread):


Can someone explain this? Dunn has 9 at bats this year in that situation. He has no hits, 2 walks, 5 strikeouts -- and 4 rbis. Nearly half the time he's been in that situation, he drives in a run.

PS - BCubb is referring to Dunn batting with RISP and less than two outs.

Kc61
05-13-2006, 05:20 PM
Dunn is in a slump. He's hitting under .230. He only has 28 hits all year, of which 13 are homers. Only 4 doubles. His OBP is pretty good, but below Kearns', Encarnacion's, Hatteberg's.

He makes a huge contribution with his power and walks. I think Narron and others are simply trying to get him to be a better all around hitter.

I think he will get hot again, his numbers will improve, all this will die down. Generally, it is too bad Dunn has not improved his hitting, particularly for singles and doubles. But he still is a significant force in the lineup.

Redmachine2003
05-13-2006, 05:41 PM
Shorter bat is for bat speed and bat control.

Yachtzee
05-13-2006, 05:48 PM
Shorter bat is for bat speed and bat control.

Hats for bats. Keep bats warm. ;)

Yachtzee
05-13-2006, 05:55 PM
Adam Dunn is a big guy. If he were to expand his strike zone, you could drive a truck through it. And rather than get him a shorter bat, he could always emulate Bonds by getting a big elbow pad and camping out on top of the plate.

If anything, Dunn needs to do something to "shrink" his strike zone. Wear high socks to take away the low balls that get called for strikes and don't swing at anything outside.

I'm going on anecdotes, but I've heard it said before that players who swing at pitches out of the zone end up causing umpires to expand the strike zone for them. The thought is that if you think you can hit it, the umpire will start thinking you can too and will start calling it a strike whether you swing or not.

Patrick Bateman
05-13-2006, 06:14 PM
Austin Kearns, do you ever watch Reds games? I doubt you do because if you did, you'd realize how frustrating watching Dunn is. His two homers a week don't satisfy me. I want RBI's when there are men on third with less than 2 outs. Not too much to ask. He's had 3 sac fly's in his last 1000+ at bats. That's pitiful. He's a very good player, obviously, just not clutch. One of the main reasons why the Reds are winning this year is they are doing the little things. Getting guys on, moving them over, and getting them in. That's how you consistently win. I just wish Dunn would make contact, anywhere, when guys are in scoring position with less than two outs.

I watch as many Reds games as anyone here.

Dunn can be frustrating in some aspects, but he thrives in many areas. Getting on base being one of them. Things like sac-flys in the long run don't make much of a difference, especially when Dunn's go over the wall.

The way you win is to acquire as many bases as possible while limiting the amount of outs. Dunn is the poster child for this. Dunnis much better in scoring position than many think because of his power.

reds44
05-13-2006, 06:31 PM
And then there's this (which I stole from another thread):
What is 'that situation'?

The Baumer
05-13-2006, 06:56 PM
The original poster is making a big fuss over semantics IMO. What Narron said can be translated negatively as "swing at balls in the dirt, Adam" or it can mean "expand your strike zone and stop taking so many pitches over the plate". Since even the stupidest coaches in the big leagues would never tell a player to swing at balls over their head or in the dirt, I'm guessing it's the latter translation.

TC81190
05-13-2006, 07:30 PM
Yes, I know Dunn gets on base. But, geez, it's really dropping to a scary place. Replace some whiffs with some hits please and start hitting when we need you to.

And the 'Well, people need to be on base for Dunn to drive in runs' argument isn't valid at all. We lead the league in OBP.

Patrick Bateman
05-13-2006, 07:40 PM
Replace some whiffs with some hits please and start hitting when we need you to.

He will once his luck returns to normal. He's really not hitting any worse, his BAPIP is just low because of randomness.

Raisor
05-13-2006, 07:53 PM
And the 'Well, people need to be on base for Dunn to drive in runs' argument isn't valid at all. We lead the league in OBP.

and are first in RS, but only 10th in AVG.

Funny how that works.

Chip R
05-13-2006, 08:08 PM
Perhaps an example of what Narron was talking about was that game in Arizona where he was up with the bases loaded and hit a pitch that was off the plate a few inches for a 3 run double. Did the ends justify the means? In that situation it did. I do not think anyone would rather see him strike out than get a base hit. Hopefully Narron did not mean he wants him to start becoming like Vlad Guerrero and hacking at everything in the same zip code. Maybe he meant that he likes his patience but there are times where he might want to swing at something that is not a strike. Not swinging at something a foot outside or head high but something an inch or two off the plate. Not necessarily as a rule but as a change of pace. Someone mentioned earlier about inconsistant strike zones and that is a good point. Someone in another thread talked about how umpire Angel Hernandez will give certain pitchers a couple of inches off the plate. So it is tough on a disciplined hitter when one pitcher gets an extra couple of inches off the plate or up or down in the zone. He thinks a pitch is clearly outside and the umpire calls a strike. So should he start going after all those pitches outside or should he lay off? And I am sure fans who complain about Dunn striking out so much would cease and desist if he started swinging at those pitches outside the strike zone even if his strikeout rate stayed the same or rose.

pedro
05-13-2006, 08:14 PM
I hope he doesn't mean swing at that high fastball that Dunn just K'd on. That was a ball.

KronoRed
05-13-2006, 08:55 PM
Hats for bats. Keep bats warm. ;)
We need a live chicken then

kxblue
05-13-2006, 09:39 PM
I know Im going to get railed for this...

But Id like to see him try and go the other way with pitches on the black of the plate. He's certainly a great hitter, but he could easily be top 5 if he did 2 things:

1) put the ball in play with RISP and less than 2 outs
2) went the other way to lessen the shift

I realize screwing with his mechanics could ruin him, but if he could just go with the ball to expose the massive shift they put on him, he would be a much better hitter.

redsfanmia
05-13-2006, 11:44 PM
I know Im going to get railed for this...

But Id like to see him try and go the other way with pitches on the black of the plate. He's certainly a great hitter, but he could easily be top 5 if he did 2 things:

1) put the ball in play with RISP and less than 2 outs
2) went the other way to lessen the shift

I realize screwing with his mechanics could ruin him, but if he could just go with the ball to expose the massive shift they put on him, he would be a much better hitter.
Thats not going to ruin him, its called making adjustments and if/when he ever does it he will be much improved.

big boy
05-14-2006, 12:07 AM
The players with 120+ RBI tend to hit a lot better with runners on base than Dunner. Take the 40-100-100 and leave it at that.

redsfanmia
05-14-2006, 09:08 AM
I think its just time to realize that Dunn is what he is. He is going to get his 40 hrs and close to 100 rbi every year but will hit around 240 to 260(even though batting average doesnt matter) but never be a serious MVP candidate like we hoped he would.

redsmetz
05-14-2006, 09:30 AM
The players with 120+ RBI tend to hit a lot better with runners on base than Dunner. Take the 40-100-100 and leave it at that.

We may have to settle for that, and that's not a bad thing - 100 RBI's a year ain't shabby, as they say.

GAC
05-14-2006, 09:52 AM
Anyone see the piece this morning on ESPN on Pujols, and how he hits/drives pitches out of the zone? They were showing video footage/analysis, and they would have been balls if he hadn't swung.

A good hitter can (and will) do that.

Dunn's problem right now is that he is swinging at bad pitches with RISP. And it's because he is pressing IMO, while being told his job is to drive those guys in, not talk a walk.

I agree with Crash for the most part.

And I don't think Narron is/will ruin Adam Dunn.

And yes, lets fire a manager that has had us in 1st place and playing good ball for the first month. :rolleyes:

To much over-analysis on this forum for me sometimes.

Does anyone think that having Jr out of the lineup is a factor as to why Dunn doesn't see good pitches? ;)

Blimpie
05-14-2006, 10:51 AM
Per Marc's blog:


Here's what Jerry Narron had to say before the game about Cole Hamels:

"Everybody tells me he’s got a chance to be a very good major league pitcher. I’ve watched some tape of him, and it looks like we’ve just got to make sure we don’t swing at balls out of the zone.

So, whom should we trust Marty or Marc?

KronoRed
05-14-2006, 04:53 PM
Or is Jerry saying both things? ;)

GAC
05-14-2006, 10:09 PM
Throw him a slider away... and he's toast! ;)

OnBaseMachine
05-14-2006, 11:29 PM
Actually it was in the pre game show. The question which was a follow up to EE's great at bat ending in a walk was:
MARTY: Your team seems to be a lot more patient this year.
NARRON: Yes, it comes from having guys who are such patient hitters, Hatteberg, Dunn both take a lot of pitches and that's good. He did say that they'd like for Dunn to swing at some pitches out of the zone. Also said he'd like for Felipe to be more aggressive in certain situations.

I know this is the first time it's happened on Redszone, but I think people are missing the forest for the trees.
Narron mentioned all the good things that come with being patient, getting on base, running up starters pitch counts etc. but implied where there are certain situations where it can pay off to be more aggressive.

I'll agree Adam Dunn isn't a "bad ball" hitter but are there certain pitches, even technically out of the strike zone that Dunn can or should be able to drive?

Certainly there is some middle ground to be found correct?

Marty repeated this Narron quote right after Dunn struckout in the 8th inning of the Friday night game. He did in fact say that Narron told him he wants Dunn to swing at more pitches out of the zone in order to drive in more runs.

I've noticed that Dunn has been chasing a lot more bad pitches this year, particularly when runners are in scoring position. The quote by Narron is easily the dumbest thing I've ever heard a major league manager say. Whatever happened to the "only Chambliss can work on Dunn's approach?"

Crosley68
05-15-2006, 12:06 AM
Hitters are always looking for a pitch in THEIR zone, the zone where they feel most certain about being able to drive the ball. I am sure Narron was talking about THAT zone and not the STRIKE zone.

OnBaseMachine
05-15-2006, 12:14 AM
Hitters are always looking for a pitch in THEIR zone, the zone where they feel most certain about being able to drive the ball. I am sure Narron was talking about THAT zone and not the STRIKE zone.

He said strike zone.

TeamBoone
05-15-2006, 12:50 AM
Hitters are always looking for a pitch in THEIR zone, the zone where they feel most certain about being able to drive the ball. I am sure Narron was talking about THAT zone and not the STRIKE zone.

The quote was also in the paper... he said strike zone.

If this is in fact part of the problem, I hope JN realizes it soon and rescinds that advice. Because if it's true and Adam is trying to do that, then he's changing his game.

Either change it back or make sure he gets the appropriate instruction on how to go about making such a change. Just telling him to swing more in the zone will not get it done.

penantboundreds
05-15-2006, 01:54 AM
The fact is, Dunn needs to be able to go the other way better.....I know I know he is a power hitter but look at Pujols and Edmonds. Now I am not ignorant and do not feel I know everything, so please tell me if I am wrong but he doesn't go the other way all that well and since he is so big and strong that's is where most of his doubles come from. If he learns to take the outside pitch to left and into the corner and force people inside, he will mmmmmmmash home runs at a ridiculous clip (even more than now). I listen to complaints about Dunn everyday fromy my family and that is the only one I see to be true. He is pitched low and outside everytime he comes up with runners on.

Crosley68
05-15-2006, 10:14 AM
Well if he really did say strike zone and meant it, as soon as teams see Adam doing that, he will never see a good pitch to hit again.

membengal
05-15-2006, 10:41 AM
I heard the same thing as OBM is reporting.

He said "strike zone". It was in the 8th inning, and Marty was recounting what Narron said, and was also of the opinion that Dunn needed to go after balls. You know, "not strikes".

Handofdeath
05-15-2006, 05:31 PM
With men on base SLG is a more viable stat to look at, and Dunn has plenty of it.

Yes, but lets also realize that SLG isn't going to tell the whole story. If Dunn has 8 official AB's and strikes out seven times and hits one homer solo or otherwise his SLG is .500.

pedro
05-15-2006, 05:37 PM
Yes, but lets also realize that SLG isn't going to tell the whole story. If Dunn has 8 official AB's and strikes out seven times and hits one homer solo or otherwise his SLG is .500.

that example doesn't tell any type of story b/c it also leaves him with an OBP of .125 and Dunn's is routinely around .380

westofyou
05-15-2006, 05:41 PM
that example doesn't tell any type of story b/c it also leaves him with an OBP of .125 and Dunn's is routinely around .380
Story I get out of it is "small sample size"

pedro
05-15-2006, 05:45 PM
Story I get out of it is "small sample size"

and you know what they say about small sample sizes.....;)

WMR
05-15-2006, 06:28 PM
I don't know where people are getting the idea that Marty was 'relaying' Narron's words...

The words came directly out of Jerry Narron's mouth: "I'd like to see Dunn expand his strike zone."

That was the quote. (Manager's Pre-Game Comments)

Dunn's .OBP abilities, driven by his amazingly well-honed knowledge of the strike zone, is what makes him the offensive juggernaut that he is.

I haven't heard a quote that dumb since Dave Miley... well that might be a bit of an exaggeration b/c Narron has had some others which were doozeys.

(Not including Marty in this particular dumb quote convo)

Hopefully he did mean it only in certain particular, very limited, circumstances. Dunn's recent PA's make me more apt to believe that JN's old-school 'we need our slugger driving in runs, no matter what crap pitches he is seeing,' have caused Dunn to try to become a player that he is not.

membengal
05-15-2006, 06:51 PM
For those who didn't hear it from Narron, Marty "relayed" the words again in the 8th. That was the part I heard as I was at the game in the pregame and didn't hear it from Narron originally. I was sadly back at the hotel in time to hear about it in the 8th as my 4-year-old became traumitized by the fireworks after Kearns and EE's homeruns. I had not guessed the depths of his dislike of fireworks. Turns out sitting in the RF stands was a bad place to be as it dawned on me just how much he hates them.

At any rate, still seems an ill-advised sentiment to me, coming from Narron.

RedsManRick
05-15-2006, 07:06 PM
I don't know where people are getting the idea that Marty was 'relaying' Narron's words...

The words came directly out of Jerry Narron's mouth: "I'd like to see Dunn expand his strike zone."

That was the quote. (Manager's Pre-Game Comments)


Playing devil's advocate, perhaps we're the ones misinterpreting Narron's statement. The operative word in his statement may not be "strike zone" but rather "his".

That is, Narron is recognizing that Dunn does not merely take pitches based on the strike zone, but on some subset of the strike zone that is "his" zone. In certain situations, Dunn needs to swing at that pitch on the outside black. He might not be able to crush it like normal, but given that it may very well be a strike and there's an opportunity to drive runs in, he should put wood on the ball.

Look at it this way. Let's say that there is 1 out and men on 2nd & 3rd. Dunn has a 2-2 count. Dunn typically doesn't swing at a borderline pitch on the outside part of the plate. If he takes, there's a 50% of a strike (an out) and a 50% chance of a ball, running the count full and giving him another chance. Which let's the scenario play out again.

If he swings, there's a 80% chance he makes contact (20% strike out), and of that 80% contact rate, 30% (24% of swings) are hits (2 or 3 RBI) another 30% (24% swings) are productive outs (1 RBI), and 40% (32% of swings) are regular non-productive outs.

The breakdown:
Do not swing: ~75% of a non-productive out ending the AB, ~25% of productive outcome ending the AB (sometimes RBI)
Swing: ~50% of non-productive out ending the AB, ~50% of RBI producing outcome ending the AB

Now this is obviously a very contrived situation with made up, but hopefully somewhat accurate percentages. The point remains that in some situations, the reward of swinging outweighs the risk. Presumably, Dunn has a better chance of driving in runs than other people in the lineup when he swings the bat -- walks aside. In those situations, he maybe should be a bit more williing to swing at a border line strike.

Of course, the devil's advocate to my devil's advocate points out that it's very difficult for hitters to adjust their approach on the fly like that. Furthermore, when Dunn was asked to do this in the past by Chris Chambliss, Dunn seemed to struggle in applying the approach.

pedro
05-15-2006, 07:26 PM
I would rather Dunn concentrated on actually hitting the balls he decides to swing at rather than swinging at pitches he currently isn't inclined to. Dunn swings and misses a lot and IMO that issue isn't going to be helped by him swinging at picthes he either doesn't think are strikes or doesn't think he can hit.

Handofdeath
05-15-2006, 07:37 PM
that example doesn't tell any type of story b/c it also leaves him with an OBP of .125 and Dunn's is routinely around .380

I said official at-bats. Dunn could walk a thousand times. That wasn't the point. The point was that the SLG of a player doesn't tell the whole story. Really that numbers don't tell the whole story. People say that Dunn is having a great season despite the low batting average because his OPS is .927. Guess whose OPS is .934? Barry Bonds. Bonds is having a crappy season. The numbers are important but they can only tell part of the story no matter how many ways you can crunch them.

pedro
05-15-2006, 07:49 PM
I said official at-bats. Dunn could walk a thousand times. That wasn't the point. The point was that the SLG of a player doesn't tell the whole story. Really that numbers don't tell the whole story. People say that Dunn is having a great season despite the low batting average because his OPS is .927. Guess whose OPS is .934? Barry Bonds. Bonds is having a crappy season. The numbers are important but they can only tell part of the story no matter how many ways you can crunch them.


He still gets a hit closer to 1 every 4 ab's than 1 every 8 ab's so you're example still doesn't mean much.

Despite that, I think everyone knows that Dunn is in a slump, but his OPS is .927 b/c he had a good April, not b/c OPS is meaningless as his OPS during May, which is the month that everyone is climbing on him about, is .705.



Barry Bonds? What can I tell you? I try not to compare anyone to him. he;s a freak.

Handofdeath
05-15-2006, 11:09 PM
He still gets a hit closer to 1 every 4 ab's than 1 every 8 ab's so you're example still doesn't mean much.

Yes it does. I could have been talking about any player. I simply used Dunn because someone else said his slugging numbers were very important and still good. I am simply saying that one homer in eight official AB's would result in a SLG of .500 and so should not be looked at as the end all.

pedro
05-16-2006, 12:18 AM
Yes it does. I could have been talking about any player. I simply used Dunn because someone else said his slugging numbers were very important and still good. I am simply saying that one homer in eight official AB's would result in a SLG of .500 and so should not be looked at as the end all.

not unless paired with OBP which Dunn does do, although not in the last 2 weeks.

Ron Madden
05-16-2006, 05:18 AM
I would rather Dunn concentrated on actually hitting the balls he decides to swing at rather than swinging at pitches he currently isn't inclined to. Dunn swings and misses a lot and IMO that issue isn't going to be helped by him swinging at picthes he either doesn't think are strikes or doesn't think he can hit.

:thumbup:

FoReel
05-16-2006, 07:39 PM
Marty keeps saying he should "expand his zone." Whether that means expand it WITHIN the strike zone or BEYOND the strike zone is a matter of debate.

He probaly means to to swing at things that dont look at strikes bc he is getting way to many strike out something needs to change, he might hit 60 home runs a game but with a .250ish average.

DoogMinAmo
05-16-2006, 08:07 PM
A recurring point in gamethreads is the umpire's perception of strike is different than Dunn's. Perhaps Narron is just encouraging Dunn ot realize that although he may think it a ball, and it probably IS a ball on his frame, it is not necessarily going to be called one. He should learn to e"xpand his zone" when appropriate to the ump.

This guess is as good as any. Not worth getting fired up over, but I understand with the recent poor play of the O. Hopefully, the Pirates can be the desired placebo.

buckshotrod
05-16-2006, 08:44 PM
Forget it..you are never going to convince the Dunnheads. He has been in a slump for years (RISP). He has NEVER hit over .250 with RISP..he just chokes. Hits lots of homers and hits them far but not when it counts. He is only a step up from wily Mo in the field and consistently has brain cramps. Too bad, seems like a nice guy with a lot of potential. Hope he comes around. I'd take less homers for more production when it counts.

OnBaseMachine
05-16-2006, 08:50 PM
Forget it..you are never going to convince the Dunnheads. He has been in a slump for years (RISP). He has NEVER hit over .250 with RISP..he just chokes. Hits lots of homers and hits them far but not when it counts. He is only a step up from wily Mo in the field and consistently has brain cramps. Too bad, seems like a nice guy with a lot of potential. Hope he comes around. I'd take less homers for more production when it counts.

Adam Dunn - Career with RISP

.215/.418/.474-.892 OPS

He does his job with runners on...not make outs.

BTW, Dunn's career OPS with the bases empty is .885, meaning he has been slightly better with RISP than he has with them empty.

buckshotrod
05-16-2006, 09:03 PM
Adam Dunn - Career with RISP

.215/.418/.474-.892 OPS

He does his job with runners on...not make outs.

BTW, Dunn's career OPS with the bases empty is .885, meaning he has been slightly better with RISP than he has with them empty.

:thumbdown

You put it up there buddy......215 BA with RISP...absolutely horrible..His job is to knock in runs when it counts and he doesn't do it. Use OPS all you want..fact of the matter is HE IS NOT GETTING THE JOB DUNN and has not since he has been with the club with RISP.

westofyou
05-16-2006, 09:05 PM
His job is to knock in runs when it countsWhich of course is alwasy a moving target.

fact of the matter is HE IS NOT GETTING THE JOB DUNN and has not since he has been with the club with RISP.
Dunn helped the Reds to a 16-11 record in July by having his most productive offensive month of the year. Dunn batted .278 and led the league in home runs (11) and RBIs (31).

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050803&content_id=1156285&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

pedro
05-16-2006, 09:06 PM
Forget it..you are never going to convince the Dunnheads. He has been in a slump for years (RISP). He has NEVER hit over .250 with RISP..he just chokes. Hits lots of homers and hits them far but not when it counts. He is only a step up from wily Mo in the field and consistently has brain cramps. Too bad, seems like a nice guy with a lot of potential. Hope he comes around. I'd take less homers for more production when it counts.


Sorry all runs count the same and Dunn produces lots of them.

room to improve? sure.

Focusing on one stat, RISP? Silly.

westofyou
05-16-2006, 09:07 PM
Too bad, seems like a nice guy with a lot of potential.


CINCINNATI REDS
ALL YEARS
ALL POSITIONS
HOMERUNS >= 40
RUNS >= 100
RBI > 100


T1 Ted Kluszewski 2
T1 Adam Dunn 2
T3 Greg Vaughn 1
T3 Wally Post 1
T3 Tony Perez 1
T3 Ken Griffey Jr. 1
T3 George Foster 1

OnBaseMachine
05-16-2006, 09:07 PM
:thumbdown

You put it up there buddy......215 BA with RISP...absolutely horrible..His job is to knock in runs when it counts and he doesn't do it. Use OPS all you want..fact of the matter is HE IS NOT GETTING THE JOB DUNN and has not since he has been with the club with RISP.

False.

Dunn's job is to not make outs. He's doing his job.

Andruw Jones led the NL in RBI last year. You know what his BA with RISP was? Just .244, proving that BA/RISP is a useless stat.

Sean Casey has a career .318 BA with RISP, yet he has never driven in 100 runs in a season.

Patrick Bateman
05-16-2006, 09:09 PM
:thumbdown

215 BA with RISP.

And why does that matter. OBM gave you the stats you need to know. BA does not equate to runs as well as OPS, OBP, or SLG does, even with RISP. With a career 901 OPS before the season, Dunn has been pretty much the same player in "clutch" situations. He does not choke, that's silly.

Patrick Bateman
05-16-2006, 09:10 PM
False.

Dunn's job is to not make outs. He's doing his job.

Andruw Jones led the NL in RBI last year. You know what his BA with RISP was? Just .244, proving that BA/RISP is a useless stat.

Sean Casey has a career .318 BA with RISP, yet he has never driven in 100 runs in a season.

Yep. I guess you got your post in before mine, but good post.

reds44
05-16-2006, 09:13 PM
False.

Dunn's job is to not make outs. He's doing his job.

Andruw Jones led the NL in RBI last year. You know what his BA with RISP was? Just .244, proving that BA/RISP is a useless stat.

Sean Casey has a career .318 BA with RISP, yet he has never driven in 100 runs in a season.
His job is to drive in runs, Ryan Freel's job is to not make outs.

pedro
05-16-2006, 09:18 PM
His job is to drive in runs, Ryan Freel's job is to not make outs.

every batters primary job is to not make and out.

Patrick Bateman
05-16-2006, 09:19 PM
His job is to drive in runs, Ryan Freel's job is to not make outs.

Dunn's job is both, and he's good at them. He gets on base and knocks in runs.

OnBaseMachine
05-16-2006, 09:19 PM
His job is to drive in runs, Ryan Freel's job is to not make outs.

No.

Every hitters job is to not make outs. Adam Dunn is successful in doing that.

reds44
05-16-2006, 09:23 PM
Dunn's job is both, and he's good at them. He gets on base and knocks in runs.
He is good at hitting homers. When you hit 40 homers, ovbiously you are going to drive in alot of runs.

Sorry, but it stops there for Dunn.

I would mutch rather he have a .275 average with RISP and a .330 OBP then a .218 and .400. I gurantee you his RBI numbers would go up.

Sometimes looking at OBP is better, and sometimes it is not. And the key factor here is, watch the game. Anybody who does know that Dunn is terrible with RISP. Period.

OnBaseMachine
05-16-2006, 09:28 PM
He is good at hitting homers. When you hit 40 homers, ovbiously you are going to drive in alot of runs.

Sorry, but it stops there for Dunn.

I would mutch rather he have a .275 average with RISP and a .330 OBP then a .218 and .400. I gurantee you his RBI numbers would go up.

Sometimes looking at OBP is better, and sometimes it is not. And the key factor here is, watch the game. Anybody who does know that Dunn is terrible with RISP. Period.

Why does Sean Casey have a career .318 BA with RISP and yet no 100 RBI seasons?

Sorry, but OPS is the better stat to use with RISP.

reds44
05-16-2006, 09:29 PM
Why does Sean Casey have a career .318 BA with RISP and yet no 100 RBI seasons?

Sorry, but OPS is the better stat to use with RISP.
Because Sean Casey isn't the type of player that is going to drive in 100 runs in a year. He doesn't hit for enough power to due so.

pedro
05-16-2006, 09:30 PM
He is good at hitting homers. When you hit 40 homers, ovbiously you are going to drive in alot of runs.

Sorry, but it stops there for Dunn.

I would mutch rather he have a .275 average with RISP and a .330 OBP then a .218 and .400. I gurantee you his RBI numbers would go up.

Sometimes looking at OBP is better, and sometimes it is not. And the key factor here is, watch the game. Anybody who does know that Dunn is terrible with RISP. Period.

And I guarantee that all that shows is you don't understand how runs are created. You are completely forgetting the role that slugging plays.

OnBaseMachine
05-16-2006, 09:30 PM
Because Sean Casey isn't the type of player that is going to drive in 100 runs in a year. He doesn't hit for enough power to due so.

But if BA with RISP is such a great stat as you say then he should have about five 100+ RBI seasons by now.

Patrick Bateman
05-16-2006, 09:32 PM
He is good at hitting homers. When you hit 40 homers, ovbiously you are going to drive in alot of runs

What difference does it make how he drives the runs in? The HR's are a good way of getting RBI's.


I would mutch rather he have a .275 average with RISP and a .330 OBP then a .218 and .400. I gurantee you his RBI numbers would go up

Sure his RBI's may go up, but does it help the team? It means less chances for everyone else to drive in runs. It makes the Reds a worse team and Dunn a worse player.



Sometimes looking at OBP is better, and sometimes it is not. And the key factor here is, watch the game. Anybody who does know that Dunn is terrible with RISP

Most people here watch the games and not all of us know that. Batting average simply does not equate to runs scored. Making opportunities is just as good as finishing them off.

reds44
05-16-2006, 09:34 PM
What difference does it make how he drives the runs in? The HR's are a good way of getting RBI's.



Sure his RBI's may go up, but does it help the team? It means less chances for everyone else to drive in runs. It makes the Reds a worse team and Dunn a worse player.




Most people here watch the games and not all of us know that. Batting average simply does not equate to runs scored. Making opportunities is just as good as finishing them off.
And neither does OBP!!!

What will drive in more runs, hitting or walking?

When you have a .400+ OBP of course your OBP + slugging will be good.

Patrick Bateman
05-16-2006, 09:40 PM
And neither does OBP!!!

What will drive in more runs, hitting or walking?

When you have a .400+ OBP of course your OBP + slugging will be good.

I don't think you get that by walking you will create even more run scoring opportunities. even with men in scoring position it's not bad to walk because you just add to the opportunity to score runs.

pedro
05-16-2006, 09:45 PM
And neither does OBP!!!

What will drive in more runs, hitting or walking?

When you have a .400+ OBP of course your OBP + slugging will be good.


I honestly don't think you even really understand what slugging percentage is then.

reds44
05-16-2006, 09:46 PM
I honestly don't think you even really understand what slugging percentage is then.
Actually I don't.

Care to explain it?

pedro
05-16-2006, 09:56 PM
Actually I don't.

Care to explain it?


Ok. It's basically a "batting average" that counts EVERY BASE a batter acquires and then divides it by the total number of AB's (not including walks). (HR=4, 3B= 3 etc.). Traditional "batting average" considers EVERY HIT as equal when dividing by the total number of AB's (not including walks). So while a player may have a low BA, they may also have a high slugging percentage if they get lots of extra base hits.

Here's more on SLG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging_percentage

BTW- Wikipedia.org is a great place to go and look up a lot of stuff mentioned here and from anywhere else for that matter.

reds44
05-16-2006, 09:57 PM
Ok. It's basically a "batting average" that counts EVERY BASE a batter acquires and then divides it by the total number of AB's. (HR=4, 3B= 3 etc.). Traditional "batting average" considers EVERY HIT as equal when dividing by the total number of AB's. So while a player may have a low BA, they may also have a high slugging percentage if they get lots of extra base hits.

Here's more on SLG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging_percentage
So is a .474 slg% good?

pedro
05-16-2006, 10:01 PM
So is a .474 slg% good?

Depends on the player and what else they are bringing to the game OBP, BA, Defense, what position they play etc.

IIRC, a major league average player has an OPS around 750 so if you have an .474 slg you are well on your way. Especially if you're not a corner guy.

reds44
05-16-2006, 10:02 PM
Depends on the player and what else they are bringing to the game OBP, BA, Defense, what position they play etc.

IIRC, a major league average player has an OPS around 750 so if you have an .474 slg you are well on your way. Especially if you're not a corner guy.
Well Dunn plays bad defense, doesn't hit for a good average, and plays a corner position.

His 474 slg is with RISP.

westofyou
05-16-2006, 10:04 PM
Well Dunn plays bad defense, doesn't hit for a good average, and plays a corner position.

His 474 slg is with RISP.
RISP.. in how many AB's... the freaking RISP stat comprises about 23% of a years ab's .... of course that 23% is important, but you'd think that the other 77% might interest some of you guys who seem to know everything about the game enough that you don't need to learn anymore.

reds44
05-16-2006, 10:05 PM
RISP.. in how many AB's... the freaking RISP stat comprises about 23% of a years ab's .... of course that 23% is important, but you'd think that the other 77% might interest some of you guys who seem to know everything about the game enough that you don't need to learn anymore.
You weren't reffering to me were you?

I just asked what slg% was.

pedro
05-16-2006, 10:12 PM
You weren't reffering to me were you?

I just asked what slg% was.

and then you were trying to only make it matter within the context of RISP which is entirely besides the point.

repeat after me.

RISP is not a good indicator of a teams ability to score runs.

your homework assignment tonight is to fill a notepad with that sentence on every line.

good night. :)

reds44
05-16-2006, 10:13 PM
and then you were trying to only make it matter within the context of RISP which is entirely besides the point.

repeat after me.

RISP is not a good indicator of a teams ability to score runs.

your homework assignment tonight is to fill a notepad with that sentence on every line.

good night. :)
What? No I wasn't, I had no intention of doing that when I asked. I actually thought a .474 slg was good before you said it wasn't.

pedro
05-16-2006, 10:15 PM
What? No I wasn't, I had no intention of doing that when I asked. I actually thought a .474 slg was good before you said it wasn't.

It's actually not bad.

Patrick Bateman
05-16-2006, 10:20 PM
It's actually not bad.

It's not bad, but you would expect much more from Dunn.