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View Full Version : Could Edwin Encarnacion be the next Pujols?



reds44
05-14-2006, 10:12 PM
This is going to be the most hypocrytical post of all time because I rip on people when they talk about moving positions so much, but after seeing him today I got to thinking about moving Edwin Encarnacion to 1st base.

What are most of EE's errors? They are throwing errors. I am not ready to give up on him at 3rd base yet because he is only 23 and has amazing arm strength, but let's think about this.

Look what Albert Pujols has done. He used to be a below average fielder at 3rd base. He moved to 1st and has now become one of the best defensive 1st baseman in the game.

Edwin has very good range, and putting him at 1st would virtually take his wild arm out of the picture. 1st base is a key offensive position, and the Reds really don't have any heir apparents in the minors (I don't think Votto is it) and ovbiously Hatteberg is not a long term solution (although he is not having a bad year).

Edwin has enough run production to be a 1st baseman, and if his arm doesn't settle down I think it may be a good idea. George and Welsch said it was "being talked about inside the organization."

So what is everybody's thoughts on this?

KronoRed
05-14-2006, 10:19 PM
Leave him at 3rd for at least 3 years, good 3rd baseman are hard to find, good 1st baseman are easy.

griffeyfreak4
05-14-2006, 10:19 PM
Agreed

pedro
05-14-2006, 10:21 PM
Leave him at 3rd for at least 3 years, good 3rd baseman are hard to find, good 1st baseman are easy.

that's how I feel too. Too soon to think about giving up on him at 3B.

flyer85
05-14-2006, 10:22 PM
Pujols had limited range and a weak arm. EE suffers from neither of those problems.

Highlifeman21
05-14-2006, 10:22 PM
When I first read the thread title, I was scared to see what was actually written in here, but you bring up a decent yet estranged correlation between Pujols shift to 1B and EE playing some 1B today.

I think the future for the Reds @ 1B is Adam Dunn, and I can live with some throwing errors here and there from EE. They all seem to come from trying too hard, rather than lack of talent or effort. I think if he learns when to put the ball in his pocket, those will reduce.

Hap
05-14-2006, 10:26 PM
Leave him at 3rd for at least 3 years, good 3rd baseman are hard to find, good 1st baseman are easy.

Agreed. Good third basemen are developed. Edwin may be a year or two away from being defensively adequate for the majors, but the only way for him to become adequate is to get out there and play.

reds44
05-14-2006, 10:28 PM
Leave him at 3rd for at least 3 years, good 3rd baseman are hard to find, good 1st baseman are easy.
That is how I feel. Despite the error today I thought he was playing bettter D lately.

Ron Madden
05-14-2006, 10:33 PM
I think Barry Larkin made 29 errors one season. He turned out to be a pretty good fielder.

I hope they leave EE at 3B for the next decade.

NastyBoy
05-14-2006, 11:06 PM
Pujols actually played more LF than 3B when he came up. If a player has a solid glove at 3B, then it stands to reason that he will be solid at the other corner 1B. I did notice they had EE playing 1B late in the game.

2001MUgrad
05-14-2006, 11:10 PM
I would put EE at second, Put Lopez at third, and Phillips at SS.

MattyHo4Life
05-14-2006, 11:12 PM
If it wasn't for Scott Rolen, Pujols would probably still be playing 3B. The Cardinals had Tino at 1B at the tie, so Pujols was moved to LF. Moving him to 1B ended up being a great move, but I don't think it would have been done if they didn't trade for Rolen. Power hitting 3rd Baseman are highly coveted. Pujols only spent 1 year in the minors, so I think there was hope that he would improve with more experience.

UGADaddy
05-14-2006, 11:47 PM
In a word: NO.

wheels
05-14-2006, 11:51 PM
Barry Larkin made 29 errors in his first season.

NastyBoy
05-14-2006, 11:59 PM
Ozzie Smith made 25 his first season.

Superdude
05-15-2006, 12:03 AM
No. You put crappy outfielder's at first base, not 23 year old's with freakish range and arm strength.

markymark69
05-15-2006, 12:18 AM
I agree with most people. It is entirely too soon to give up on EE as a third baseman. But I am intriqued (sp) by his move to 1st base. Maybe it is much ado about nothing, who knows, only time will tell.

I remember Tony Perez began as a third baseman and if you set anywhere within the first ten rows you weren't safe from his throws from the hot corner. Connection?

I am not saying EE is going to be Tony Perez or that he is permantly going to go to first, but that thought came in to my head when I saw him over there today.

KronoRed
05-15-2006, 12:23 AM
No. You put crappy outfielder's at first base, not 23 year old's with freakish range and arm strength.
Or old shortstops :evil:

reds44
05-15-2006, 12:32 AM
Or old shortstops :evil:
Zing

ghettochild
05-15-2006, 12:56 AM
Barry Larkin made 29 errors in his first season.
case and point. thanks

pmurray48
05-15-2006, 10:25 AM
Eddy E has the skills needed to play 3B (range, arm, athletic ability) his problem is the accuracy on rushed throws which is usually a sign of poor footwork. Fortunatly footwork is something that can be taught and developed. I think EE will develope into a all-star calliber 3B within the next 3 years. Got to love the young infeild. Now the Reds have to convince Dunn he is a 1B and the Reds will be set for about ten years.

oneupper
05-15-2006, 10:29 AM
Narron is probably just looking for a RH hitting stop-gap solution at 1B until Aurilia comes back.

PuffyPig
05-15-2006, 11:08 AM
Judging fielding prowess based on errors is a poor indicatoe, especially early in a players career.

There is nothing gleaned from watch EE play that suggests he won't be an above average fielding thirdbaseman.You can't teach range. The errors will decrease with experience.

westofyou
05-15-2006, 11:13 AM
CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1965-2005
3B

ERRORS YEAR E
1 Tony Perez 1970 35
2 Tony Perez 1969 32
3 Tony Perez 1968 25
4 Dan Driessen 1974 24
5 Deron Johnson 1965 22
6 Aaron Boone 2002 20
T7 Aaron Boone 2001 19
T7 Johnny Bench 1982 19
T9 Tony Perez 1971 18
T9 Nick Esasky 1984 18

Expansion era

SEASON
1969-2005
3B

ERRORS YEAR E
1 Butch Hobson 1978 43
T2 Darrell Evans 1975 36
T2 Joel Youngblood 1984 36
T4 Larry Parrish 1975 35
T4 Tony Perez 1970 35
T4 Bobby Bonilla 1989 35
7 Gary Sheffield 1993 34
T8 Mike Lamb 2000 33
T8 Aramis Ramirez 2003 33
T8 Troy Glaus 2000 33
T8 Todd Zeile 1993 33

2001MUgrad
05-15-2006, 08:40 PM
EE is on pace to make roughly 47 E's.

Felo is on pace to make roughly 34 E's. That's 80 errors on on the left side of the IF, thats 80 extra outs!!!

I have no doubt that EE can do it, the types of errors that he makes are what bother me. Many errors are just plain mental. He and Felo both have a bad habit out of backing up on the ball. Ground balls will flat out it you up if you aren't the agressor.

I just think BP would be an overall better option at SS and that Felo is workable at 3B. If EE couldn't cut it at second he is destined to be a DH.

CTA513
05-15-2006, 09:24 PM
I seen people in other posts wanting Miguel Cabrera.
I just checked out MLB gameday and Cabrera made his 10th error of the year at 3rd today.

:devil:

saboforthird
05-15-2006, 10:03 PM
When I first read the thread title, I was scared to see what was actually written in here, but you bring up a decent yet estranged correlation between Pujols shift to 1B and EE playing some 1B today.

I think the future for the Reds @ 1B is Adam Dunn, and I can live with some throwing errors here and there from EE. They all seem to come from trying too hard, rather than lack of talent or effort. I think if he learns when to put the ball in his pocket, those will reduce.

Truer words never spoken. :)

CTA513
05-15-2006, 11:14 PM
The error bug must be going around, because Morgan Ensberg just made his 8th error of the year tonight.

BigRed
05-15-2006, 11:30 PM
3B and SS are the toughest positions to play in baseball in my opinion. Therefore, more errors are to be expected globally. Edwin will get better. If I was to make a switch, I would put Felipe at 2B and move Phillips to SS rather than moving Edwin to 2B. I think Phillips has the best range for the position.

Ron Madden
05-16-2006, 03:32 AM
Edwin could be the best fielding third baseman in the entire history of this club... Leave him alone.

I have always liked Lopez at SS over other options on the 25 man roster.

Lopez IMHO could be even better at 2B. Untill anyone proves they are better at SS leave him alone.

Brandon Phillips has shown his defensive skill at 2B.
If he's just as talented at SS we have a good DP combo.

WARNING.. Pay very little attention to the scouting reports of some voice heard over the radio.

Hap
05-16-2006, 10:45 AM
Edwin could be the best fielding third baseman in the entire history of this club... Leave him alone.

I'm not saying that can't happen...but.....

He has a long way to go before he is anywhere near David Gus (Buddy) Bell. Even though we had him at the twilight of his career (85-88), he could have and maybe should have won a gold glove or two with the Reds.

cincyinco
05-16-2006, 04:32 PM
I would put EE at second, Put Lopez at third, and Phillips at SS.

Crazy idea, but the defensive range up the middle would be pretty amazing... Does Lopez carry enough stick to justify putting him at the corner? He certainly has the arm to play there.

KronoRed
05-16-2006, 05:16 PM
I'm not saying that can't happen...but.....

He has a long way to go before he is anywhere near David Gus (Buddy) Bell. Even though we had him at the twilight of his career (85-88), he could have and maybe should have won a gold glove or two with the Reds.
He has the time and the talent, moving him is a terrible idea.

Mario-Rijo
05-16-2006, 09:54 PM
Very Interesting stuff. I thought to myself that EE is quite impressive down there w/ the range and glove he has. He also has enough arm to get the job done, so w/ this in mind I decided to compare him statistically to the 2 best fielding 3B that I could think of off the top of my head.

Here's EE:

Edwin Encarnacion 3B
G GS INN TC PO A E DP PB SB CS RF FPCT
2005 56 55 478.0 180 54 116 10 10 --- --- --- 3.20 .944
2006 34 34 293.1 92 21 60 11 3 --- --- --- 2.49 .880




Scott Rolen:


Scott Rolen 3B
G GS INN TC PO A E DP PB SB CS RF FPCT
1996 37 --- --- 87 29 54 4 4 --- --- --- --- .954
1997 155 --- --- 459 144 291 24 30 --- --- --- --- .948
1998 159 --- --- 468 135 319 14 28 --- --- --- --- .970
1999 112 111 962.1 345 108 223 14 22 --- --- --- 3.10 .959
2000 128 127 1080.0 344 90 244 10 14 --- --- --- 2.78 .971
2001 151 151 1329.1 441 104 325 12 22 --- --- --- 2.90 .973
2002 100 100 874.0 295 81 206 8 23 --- --- --- 2.96 .973
2002 55 54 486.0 189 52 129 8 18 --- --- --- 3.35 .958
2003 153 152 1339.0 420 109 298 13 23 --- --- --- 2.74 .969
2004 141 139 1228.0 428 93 325 10 23 --- --- --- 3.06 .977
2005 56 55 486.0 178 22 150 6 17 --- --- --- 3.19 .966
2006 28 27 233.0 104 19 81 4 10 --- --- --- 3.86 .962

Career Totals 1275 --- --- 3758 986 2645 127 234 --- --- --- --- .966




Brooks Robinson:


Brooks Robinson Fielding Stats

Team POS G GS OUTS TC TC/G CH PO A E DP PB CASB CACS FLD% RF ZR
1955 Orioles 3B 6 - - 12 2.0 10 2 8 2 1 n/a n/a n/a .833 0.00 -
1956 Orioles 3B 14 - - 36 2.6 34 9 25 2 3 n/a n/a n/a .944 0.00 -
1956 Orioles 2B 1 - - 0 0.0 0 0 0 0 0 n/a n/a n/a .000 0.00 -
1957 Orioles 3B 47 - - 103 2.2 100 34 66 3 5 n/a n/a n/a .971 0.00 -
1958 Orioles 3B 140 - - 447 3.2 426 151 275 21 30 n/a n/a n/a .953 0.00 -
1958 Orioles 2B 16 - - 15 0.9 14 6 8 1 2 n/a n/a n/a .933 0.00 -
1959 Orioles 3B 87 - - 292 3.4 279 92 187 13 25 n/a n/a n/a .955 0.00 -
1959 Orioles 2B 1 - - 0 0.0 0 0 0 0 0 n/a n/a n/a .000 0.00 -
1960 Orioles 3B 152 - - 511 3.4 499 171 328 12 34 n/a n/a n/a .977 0.00 -
1960 Orioles 2B 3 - - 5 1.7 5 3 2 0 1 n/a n/a n/a 1.000 0.00 -
1961 Orioles 3B 163 - - 496 3.0 482 151 331 14 34 n/a n/a n/a .972 0.00 -
1961 Orioles 2B 2 - - 1 0.5 1 0 1 0 0 n/a n/a n/a 1.000 0.00 -
1961 Orioles SS 1 - - 6 6.0 6 4 2 0 0 n/a n/a n/a 1.000 0.00 -
1962 Orioles 3B 162 - - 513 3.2 502 163 339 11 32 n/a n/a n/a .979 0.00 -
1962 Orioles SS 3 - - 1 0.3 1 1 0 0 0 n/a n/a n/a 1.000 0.00 -
1962 Orioles 2B 2 - - 2 1.0 2 1 1 0 0 n/a n/a n/a 1.000 0.00 -
1963 Orioles 3B 160 - - 495 3.1 483 153 330 12 43 n/a n/a n/a .976 0.00 -
1963 Orioles SS 1 - - 1 1.0 1 0 1 0 0 n/a n/a n/a 1.000 0.00 -
1964 Orioles 3B 163 - - 494 3.0 480 153 327 14 40 n/a n/a n/a .972 0.00 -
1965 Orioles 3B 143 - - 455 3.2 440 144 296 15 36 n/a n/a n/a .967 0.00 -
1966 Orioles 3B 157 - - 499 3.2 487 174 313 12 26 n/a n/a n/a .976 0.00 -
1967 Orioles 3B 158 - - 563 3.6 552 147 405 11 37 n/a n/a n/a .980 0.00 -
1968 Orioles 3B 162 - - 537 3.3 521 168 353 16 31 n/a n/a n/a .970 0.00 -
1969 Orioles 3B 156 - - 546 3.5 533 163 370 13 37 n/a n/a n/a .976 0.00 -
1970 Orioles 3B 156 - - 495 3.2 478 157 321 17 30 n/a n/a n/a .966 0.00 -
1971 Orioles 3B 156 - - 501 3.2 485 131 354 16 35 n/a n/a n/a .968 0.00 -
1972 Orioles 3B 152 - - 473 3.1 462 129 333 11 27 n/a n/a n/a .977 0.00 -
1973 Orioles 3B 154 - - 498 3.2 483 129 354 15 25 n/a n/a n/a .970 0.00 -
1974 Orioles 3B 153 - - 543 3.5 525 115 410 18 44 n/a n/a n/a .967 0.00 -
1975 Orioles 3B 143 - - 431 3.0 422 96 326 9 30 n/a n/a n/a .979 0.00 -
1976 Orioles 3B 71 - - 191 2.7 185 59 126 6 11 n/a n/a n/a .969 0.00 -
1977 Orioles 3B 15 - - 34 2.3 34 6 28 0 2 n/a n/a n/a 1.000 0.00 -
Career POS G GS OUTS TC TC/G CH PO A E DP PB CASB CACS FLD% RF ZR
23 Years 81 2,900 - - 9,196 3.2 8,932 2,712 6,220 264 621 - - - .971 0.00



I'd say it's worth the wait!

westofyou
05-16-2006, 10:14 PM
I'm not saying that can't happen...but.....

He has a long way to go before he is anywhere near David Gus (Buddy) Bell. Even though we had him at the twilight of his career (85-88), he could have and maybe should have won a gold glove or two with the Reds.
Which Buddy?

The one who made 82 errors in his first 4 seasons?

or the one who picked for the Rangers?

BTW Buddy made 25 errors the year he split time between Cincinnati and Texas, he also played first for the first time since his rookie year in Cleveland.