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RedEye
05-15-2006, 09:18 PM
I've read in a couple of places that the Giants have just cut off negotiations with Jason Schmidt, and there is speculation that he will now be available at the trade deadline. I can't think of a team more in need of an influx of young talent than the Giants. Do you think Kriv would pull off a half-season rental type deal if the Reds are still in it at the end of July? I could see him packaging Homer or Travis Wood with Denorfia and Votto in order to pull this off. What do you all think? I think Schmidt is exactly the type of veteran power pitcher that would slot in nicely at the front of our rotation.

KronoRed
05-15-2006, 09:21 PM
I wouldn't give up that much for a half season of Schmidt, at his age I think he's going to get worse not better.

Topcat
05-15-2006, 09:23 PM
I've read in a couple of places that the Giants have just cut off negotiations with Jason Schmidt, and there is speculation that he will now be available at the trade deadline. I can't think of a team more in need of an influx of young talent than the Giants. Do you think Kriv would pull off a half-season rental type deal if the Reds are still in it at the end of July? I could see him packaging Homer or Travis Wood with Denorfia and Votto in order to pull this off. What do you all think? I think Schmidt is exactly the type of veteran power pitcher that would slot in nicely at the front of our rotation.

Nope I'd run the other way Schidt's not reliable anymore and the last thing the Reds should do is give away pitching, for a rental player.

edabbs44
05-15-2006, 10:04 PM
I wouldn't give up that much for a half season of Schmidt, at his age I think he's going to get worse not better.

Totally agree. He was awful last year and has a history of arm problems. Wood/Homer only go if we get someone with youth on their side.

jmcclain19
05-15-2006, 11:14 PM
Totally agree. He was awful last year and has a history of arm problems. Wood/Homer only go if we get someone with youth on their side.

Awful in '05?

Then sign me up then for a big scoop of awful.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schmija01.shtml

He was so dominating in the 02-04 span that anything would pale in comparison.

But for giggles - his 172IP, 160H, 84ER, 85BB, 165K, 4.40ERA, 1.42WHIP

isn't far off the charts from Aaron Harang's 2005 - which would have made him the Reds 2nd best pitcher last year. Which is a bit being like the tall guy at the midget fair, but it's something nonetheless.

And what is with the durability questions?

The guy has averaged 198IP the last four years.

RedWilly
05-15-2006, 11:29 PM
Awful in '05?

Then sign me up then for a big scoop of awful.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schmija01.shtml

He was so dominating in the 02-04 span that anything would pale in comparison.

But for giggles - his 172IP, 160H, 84ER, 85BB, 165K, 4.40ERA, 1.42WHIP

isn't far off the charts from Aaron Harang's 2005 - which would have made him the Reds 2nd best pitcher last year. Which is a bit being like the tall guy at the midget fair, but it's something nonetheless.

And what is with the durability questions?

The guy has averaged 198IP the last four years.



Awful was definately a bit of a stretch lol
However, even if he can be the second best pitcher on the REDS, he is in no way worth one of our best pitching prospects for half a year.

I dont think you were saying he would be worth it anyway.

PS When are the Reds gonna start seeing guys in kyaks in the Ohio River waiting for a Dunn HR?????
Someone get me a wet suit and i'll be the first :thumbup:

edabbs44
05-15-2006, 11:29 PM
Awful in '05?

Then sign me up then for a big scoop of awful.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schmija01.shtml

He was so dominating in the 02-04 span that anything would pale in comparison.

But for giggles - his 172IP, 160H, 84ER, 85BB, 165K, 4.40ERA, 1.42WHIP

isn't far off the charts from Aaron Harang's 2005 - which would have made him the Reds 2nd best pitcher last year. Which is a bit being like the tall guy at the midget fair, but it's something nonetheless.

And what is with the durability questions?

The guy has averaged 198IP the last four years.
When your ERA jumps 2 full runs in two years and your name is mentioned in steroid rumors, I'll pass.

kheidg-
05-15-2006, 11:38 PM
Awful in '05?

Then sign me up then for a big scoop of awful.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schmija01.shtml

He was so dominating in the 02-04 span that anything would pale in comparison.

But for giggles - his 172IP, 160H, 84ER, 85BB, 165K, 4.40ERA, 1.42WHIP

isn't far off the charts from Aaron Harang's 2005 - which would have made him the Reds 2nd best pitcher last year. Which is a bit being like the tall guy at the midget fair, but it's something nonetheless.

And what is with the durability questions?

The guy has averaged 198IP the last four years.


Exactly what I was thinking. If he is available and the Giants don't want too much, I wouldn't mind having him for a half season, he likely will be a little more motivated pitching for his next contract as well.

StillFunkyB
05-15-2006, 11:51 PM
No way in hell the name Homer Bailey is involved.

If the Giants would do it for less, then I am all for it. That's not happening, I don't think.

Phhhl
05-15-2006, 11:53 PM
Schmidt struggled last season because his velocity was down from opening day. This year, he has beein hitting 96-97 lagain ate in games. I read earlier today he has an era of 1.16 in his last three starts. If he can still do that after the all star break, he would make a tremendous addition to a contending club. The Giants have never been a team to rebuild with young players, however. I doubt they trade him in a weak NL West, even if they can't work something out on a contract extension.

Johnny Footstool
05-16-2006, 01:20 AM
Schmidt's numbers this season are right in line with his 2004 season. His K/9 is lower overall, but has been increasing in the past few weeks:

Age: 33



IP H R ER HR BB K ERA WHIP BAA
59.0 41 21 21 6 21 42 3.20 1.05 .199

Schmidt would be a fantastic acquisition. He had a great spring, but started the season in a dead-arm period. His velocity returned after three starts, and now he's pretty much an ace again.

If the Reds are in contention at the All-Star break, I'd give up Bailey for him if the Giants agree to a 48-hour window for contract negotiations.

buckeyenut
05-16-2006, 10:32 PM
I probably wouldn't give up Bailey, but I would love to get ahold of Schmidt for prospects, especially if I could sign him to a 2-3 year extension. I would love at this point to run out a rotation of Schmidt, Arroyo, Harang, Ramirez and Claussen.

Aronchis
05-16-2006, 10:48 PM
Schmidt isn't going anywhere. The Giants will contend the whole year in that weak NL West. If anything, it will be Weathers going to San Fran lol.

Bring this back up next fall if you want to overpay a soon to be 34 year old pitcher.

Johnny Footstool
05-17-2006, 02:17 AM
Giving up a prospect for a frontline starter who could potentially lead you to the playoffs for the first time in a decade is not overpaying.

If the Reds are in the hunt, I'd be shopping Bailey.

NastyBoy
05-17-2006, 02:28 AM
I've read in a couple of places that the Giants have just cut off negotiations with Jason Schmidt, and there is speculation that he will now be available at the trade deadline. I can't think of a team more in need of an influx of young talent than the Giants. Do you think Kriv would pull off a half-season rental type deal if the Reds are still in it at the end of July? I could see him packaging Homer or Travis Wood with Denorfia and Votto in order to pull this off. What do you all think? I think Schmidt is exactly the type of veteran power pitcher that would slot in nicely at the front of our rotation.

Well... considering it is just May and we have a couple of months to see how things work out for this team. If we are on the bubble of making the playoffs, I just hope they don't pull a leather pants. Trade away a young prospect for a 30 something year old pitcher on the downside of his career. BJ Ryan used to be a Red. Sigh.

Gainesville Red
05-17-2006, 02:38 AM
I didn't realize Schmidt's name had come up in the steroids mess. When did that happen?

pedro
05-17-2006, 02:44 AM
I do like Schmidt. He's the kind of pitcher who could really contrast with the rest of the Reds starters in style.

However, the Reds really need to be shopping for 2-3 year solutions, not half season ones.

NastyBoy
05-17-2006, 02:53 AM
I didn't realize Schmidt's name had come up in the steroids mess. When did that happen?

I am sure there are quite a few pitchers that juiced, but I think that the rumors started because a sudden drop off in performance, so everyone assumes he stopped juicing. Ofcourse, no one will probably ever know for sure who juiced and who did not, despite mlb's invesigation.

NastyBoy
05-17-2006, 02:54 AM
However, the Reds really need to be shopping for 2-3 year solutions, not half season ones.


:thumbup:

edabbs44
05-17-2006, 09:20 AM
I didn't realize Schmidt's name had come up in the steroids mess. When did that happen?

Schmidt stung by steroid speculationBy Jerry Crasnick
ESPN.com
Archive

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. -- Giants starter Jason Schmidt changed his routine and spent part of his offseason at the Athletes Performance Institute in Tempe, Ariz. He played catch in the mornings with Boston's Curt Schilling, took a crash course in nutrition and hit the weights diligently enough to add 20 pounds, while simultaneously shedding body fat.

Schmidt even switched agents, leaving the SFX group for Michael Moye and Scott Sanderson, whose firm stresses a strong Christian philosophy that's more in line with his faith.

It's the type of extreme makeover an athlete does when he's driven to succeed. In Schmidt's case, it was also a way to leave behind a season that taxed his body, mind and soul.

Schmidt, 33, has been one of Major League Baseball's most reliable starting pitchers in recent years. Since 2003, he ranks third in the game in strikeouts (624), fifth in wins (47) and 10th in ERA (3.24). His .712 winning percentage in that span is second best in the majors behind Minnesota's Johan Santana.

But last year was a struggle from the outset. Schmidt's fastball, which typically reaches the mid-90s, was clocked at 88 mph in spring training and never got appreciably better. As he tried to adapt to his waning velocity, he groped in vain for answers.

Schmidt maintains to this day that his shoulder was never hurt. Was it a case of what baseball people call a "dead arm," or a byproduct of wear-and-tear following elbow surgery and a 225-inning season in 2004?

The ultimate indignity came midway through the season, when Schmidt began hearing rumblings in the San Francisco clubhouse that there was a different reason for his decline. Word got back to him that a teammate or two had speculated that his stuff was slipping because he had stopped taking steroids.

Ballplayers are no different than reporters, fans or scouts; they'll sit in the dugout, see a player with less muscle mass or lower radar gun readings and engage in speculation about who is juicing and who's not.

Schmidt, the forthright sort, admits that occasionally he would sit in the dugout and wonder which players were artificially enhanced. The irony is that he was now a victim of the same baseball parlor game.

"If someone saw me in the shower, they'd never think I was on the juice," Schmidt said.

His experience last year gave him a feel for the scrutiny that teammate Barry Bonds endures -- albeit on a much smaller scale. Although Schmidt refuses to elaborate on the source of the steroid speculation, he was clearly stung by it.

"You don't want to hear stuff like that in your own clubhouse," Schmidt said. "It makes you realize that people don't really know you. That's what made me mad. I felt like, 'These people should know what I stand for and what I'm about -- that I wouldn't do something like that.'

"When you talk about steroids, you're not talking about a guy's physical talents and what he brings to the game. You're talking about what makes him up as a person. The thing that surprised me is that it did irritate me. When it comes from in-house, that really gets to you. I wish people would say, 'You know what, Schmidtty would never do that."

Schmidt lost the zip on his fastball last season, winning just 12 games. The Giants know that a healthy, productive Schmidt will go a long way toward vaulting them from 75 wins back into contention in a winnable National League West. San Francisco's starting rotation posted a 45-61 record last season with a 4.52 ERA, 12th best in the league. The Giants also ranked 12th in the NL with 940 innings by starters; only the San Diego, Colorado, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati rotations logged lighter workloads.

Given the Giants' traditional emphasis on pitching and their home field advantage at spacious AT&T Park, it's understandable when general manager Brian Sabean says that poor pitching contributed to the team's demise every bit as much as Bonds' absence from the lineup. The Giants ranked 22nd in the majors with 76 quality starts, and the ineffectiveness of the rotation prompted manager Felipe Alou to overuse his bullpen.

"When the rotation doesn't give you innings, it's tough on the manager and tough on the players," Sabean said. "Most playoff teams have consistent staffs, and it begins with the starters."

Today's San Francisco rotation has a much different look than the one that broke camp in April 2005. Schmidt and Noah Lowry are still around, but Kirk Rueter, Brett Tomko and Jerome Williams have been replaced by Matt Morris, Matt Cain and either Brad Hennessey, Jamey Wright or Kevin Correia.

If Schmidt can approximate his form of two years ago, when he went 18-7 with a 3.20 ERA and finished fourth in the Cy Young Award balloting, he gives the Giants an ace who can match up with Pedro Martinez, Chris Carpenter, Roy Oswalt or anyone else the competition has to offer.

In hindsight, Schmidt concedes that he might have contributed to his problems last year with his own stubbornness. When his fastball lost its zip, the natural inclination was to try and throw even harder. That's the way power pitchers are built.

As the season progressed, Schmidt eventually showed he could adapt. He became more proficient at hitting his spots, and the results showed. He went 6-5 with a 5.01 ERA before the All-Star break, and 6-2, 3.66 after it.

Schmidt logged time at Mark Verstegen's API facility in Tempe over the winter with the objective of leaving nothing to chance. His morning get-togethers with Schilling were both educational and therapeutic.

"It was nice to pick his brain a little bit," Schmidt said. "He's a guy I've always learned things from here and there. It was interesting to hear his throwing program and his philosophy on getting ready for the season. I said, 'I'll try something different this year and see what happens.' "

Schmidt's first outing of the spring was promising enough. He threw three shutout innings against the Cubs. But more important than the results was that he had some life on the ball and mixed in some hellacious changeups ahead of schedule.

"When he's on, his command is the biggest thing," Cain said. "His fastball is where he wants it to be, and his changeup is unbelievable."

It remains to be seen how much time Schmidt has left in the Bay Area. He's eligible for free agency in November, and he's noncommittal about re-signing with the Giants. Schmidt grew up in Washington and lives there in the winter, and he ultimately might feel a sentimental tug to return home and pitch for the Seattle Mariners.

At the moment, Schmidt's 2005 travails serve as both a motivational tool and a cautionary tale. He has learned that knee-jerk assumptions are dangerous, and that labels, when applied casually, can hurt more than a man's pride.

"I'm not going to sit here and say I'm perfect," Schmidt said. "I'll sit on the bench and say, 'That guy is a lot skinnier this year. He's not hitting 20 home runs.' But I learned my lesson. I'm not the guy doing that anymore.

"Once the finger was pointed at me, I stepped back and realized I was wrong. Maybe God allowed that to happen to me for a reason, to teach me a lesson. When it's in-house and you know somebody, it's a different story."

RedEye
05-17-2006, 10:21 AM
Steroids or not (and it seems not), Schmidt is the kind of intimidating mound presence that the Reds don't have unless Aaron Harang wakes up on the wrong side of the bed. We need a mid-90's fastball at the front of this rotation. I really hope Kriv can land someone like him to anchor the rotation and make the whole pitching staff look better. Harang and Arroyo would look even better as the #2 and #3 respectively. I agree that it would be tough to give up Bailey, but if we are in contention in July (a big if), it's something we have to consider doing. It's been a long time since we've sniffed the playoffs.

Johnny Footstool
05-17-2006, 10:34 AM
Steroids or not (and it seems not), Schmidt is the kind of intimidating mound presence that the Reds don't have unless Aaron Harang wakes up on the wrong side of the bed. We need a mid-90's fastball at the front of this rotation. I really hope Kriv can land someone like him to anchor the rotation and make the whole pitching staff look better. Harang and Arroyo would look even better as the #2 and #3 respectively. I agree that it would be tough to give up Bailey, but if we are in contention in July (a big if), it's something we have to consider doing. It's been a long time since we've sniffed the playoffs.

Exactly.

If you have a shot at the playoffs, prospects become expendable.

Unfortunately, if you're a pitching prospect in the Reds system and you have a pulse, people are going to overvalue you. The roadside is littered with the likes of Ty Howington, Chris Gruler, and Jeremy Sowers.

RedEye
05-17-2006, 03:12 PM
Exactly.

If you have a shot at the playoffs, prospects become expendable.

Unfortunately, if you're a pitching prospect in the Reds system and you have a pulse, people are going to overvalue you. The roadside is littered with the likes of Ty Howington, Chris Gruler, and Jeremy Sowers.

I'm not sure Sowers was ever on our road... unless I'm forgetting something. :(

kyle1976
05-17-2006, 03:21 PM
Sowers was drafted by the Reds, then went to Vandy after the Reds wouldn't give him the money he wanted. After 3 years there he was drafted by Cleveland I believe. So, he wasn't in our system, but he was a MAJOR draft bust. Some say he was drafted solely because the Reds knew they couldn't sign him to save some money. And we wonder why our minor league system reeks?

RedEye
05-17-2006, 05:18 PM
Yes, and so he was never on our 'road'... at least if we consider that metaphor to mean that we are talking about Reds draftees who actually played with the team at some level.

Okay, I'll stop this ridiculous line of argument. I keep forgetting that this is a baseball forum and not a literature class. Back to the dissertation...

IslandRed
05-17-2006, 07:03 PM
Well, for me, "in the hunt" isn't specific enough when it comes to how much I'd give up for a rent-a-player. There's being five games ahead in the division, and then there's hanging onto the fringes of the wild-card race. With respect to Homer Bailey, amid all the disclaimers of the flameout rate of pitching prospects, he's still a guy on track to be a good big-league pitcher and he could move very quickly. If the team believes he's going to be good, they'd be trading six years of that for two months of Schmidt. That's an extremely high price to pay. Maybe it could be justified if we're in a position where a guy like Schmidt can be expected to cement a playoff run, as opposed to playing catch-up.

NastyBoy
05-18-2006, 04:43 AM
Steroids or not (and it seems not), Schmidt is the kind of intimidating mound presence that the Reds don't have unless Aaron Harang wakes up on the wrong side of the bed. We need a mid-90's fastball at the front of this rotation. I really hope Kriv can land someone like him to anchor the rotation and make the whole pitching staff look better. Harang and Arroyo would look even better as the #2 and #3 respectively. I agree that it would be tough to give up Bailey, but if we are in contention in July (a big if), it's something we have to consider doing. It's been a long time since we've sniffed the playoffs.

We already have this guy. His name is Homer Bailey.

Johnny Footstool
05-18-2006, 11:23 AM
We already have this guy. His name is Homer Bailey.

Four years ago, his name was Chris Gruler.

Three years ago, his name was Ty Howington.

You can't count on pitching prospects.

Johnny Footstool
05-18-2006, 11:26 AM
Yes, and so he was never on our 'road'... at least if we consider that metaphor to mean that we are talking about Reds draftees who actually played with the team at some level.


I see your point. I was simply looking at the Reds' recent first round pitching selections and how they ultimately didn't help the ballclub.

Phhhl
05-18-2006, 11:39 AM
I have a feeling the Giants would be just as interested in position players as pitchers for Schmidt. They are ancient at almost every position, and in recent years they haven't shown much interest in promoting young hitters from within. They consider themselves a high profile club and they like to build around names. It might take a package of someone like Austin Kearns and Jay Bruce to pry him of their roster. But, that's only if SF feels it is completely out of the race by the deadline.

IslandRed
05-18-2006, 12:10 PM
You can't count on pitching prospects.

TINSTAAPP.

There's a paradox involved. The individual pitching prospect may be volatile and unlikely to pan out, but a team has to have them in quantity to overcome the attrition rate and get the homegrown pitching it needs or wants. And goodness knows we'll have to do that, which we haven't in basically forever, to sustain success as opposed to having the occasional surprise season.

But what if we don't have the quantity? In our current situation, where we desperately need to start developing our own pitching but we can count the legit prospects on one hand, does that make the individual prospects inviolate? Or are they somehow more expendable because we're essentially starting from scratch?

Johnny Footstool
05-18-2006, 01:23 PM
TINSTAAPP.

I think I like YCCOPP better. Nice meter and rhyme. ;)

Johnny Footstool
05-18-2006, 01:24 PM
It might take a package of someone like Austin Kearns and Jay Bruce to pry him of their roster. But, that's only if SF feels it is completely out of the race by the deadline.

I'd rather give them Bailey than a Kearns/Bruce package. Pass them the dice and let them try to roll a 7.