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vaticanplum
05-16-2006, 11:31 AM
Ok, somebody talk to me about the 72 World Series. On paper it looks like a pretty rad series -- 7 games, 6 won by one run, not to mention an exciting playoff series with the Pirates. But I never hear people talk about it like they do 75 and 76. Is that just because the Reds lost in 72 or because it was the first days of the Big Red Machine or was it really just not as great a series as it sounds?

I'd love to hear thoughts from people who remember it.

Johnny Vander m
05-16-2006, 11:33 AM
We all would like to forget about Brooks Robinson.

flyer85
05-16-2006, 11:36 AM
We all would like to forget about Brooks Robinson.that was 1970.

It was a disappointing loss to the A's for the fans and players. I don't like game 6 of the 75 World Series either. I much prefer game 7.

westofyou
05-16-2006, 11:37 AM
We all would like to forget about Brooks Robinson.
Sure Gene Tenace too... who was most of ours first glimpse at a 3 true outcome player.

The 72 series was hard for me because I was a Tigers fan and that was their last hurrah with all the boys from the 60's

The playoffs between Oakland and the Tigers drained me and the series was a highlight of the team I hated (A's) with a team that was a gaining legendary status. At the time though the A's owned the nation press with the mustache payoffs, Vida Blue and Reggie and Charlie O. Therefore most of the country remembers Charlie dancing on the dugout more than the Reds losing.

Johnny Vander m
05-16-2006, 11:38 AM
You are right. it was 1970. But still like to forget about him.:bang:

RedFanAlways1966
05-16-2006, 11:40 AM
"Everyone likes to be the bride, not the bridesmaid". That'd be my guess, but I don't know.

IowaRed
05-16-2006, 11:51 AM
I remember the catch against the fence by Joe Rudi and Gene Tenace hitting 4 HR's and getting the MVP after hitting 5 HR's all year. I was only 9 yrs old but I can remember how awful I felt after game 7. Does anybody remember the details about JB and Fingers (I think) and starting to walk him intentionally but then fooling him by throwing strike 3?

Heath
05-16-2006, 11:57 AM
I think the Reds spent the bank against the Pirates in the NLCS. They actually were down to the final two outs and were looking at an exit. Remember, the '72 Pirates were defending World Champions, Johnny Bench had a spot on his lung, and Ross Grimsley was arguably the Reds' ace pitcher.

After Bench hit an opposite field home run and Bob Moose's 15 seconds of fame of a wild pitch, and a young, not-as-we-know-now, George Foster scampered home from third.

The A's were the epitomy of the '70's "me" generation. Branch Rickey taught Bob Howsam that the Reds needed to be professional, clean cut, and a "throwback" as it were to the "50's" to values of the Midwest.

The A's played up on a "little-ball" theory - the Reds' offensive bats for the most part were silent, and Gene Tenace from southern Ohio stole the show, never to repeat what he did.

Out of all the championships that the Reds had, I would think that the '72 Reds has to be the biggest woulda-coulda-shoulda in the losses they had.

To respond to woy - the '72 Tigers would have probably made that city's day. The rust-belt, industrial cities were sharply declining and the Tigers would have been some sunshine (if they had made the Series) to the foggy haze of riots, factory shutdowns, and the economic depreesion over Detroit if only for a moment. It was probably for a Tigers fan, the last shot at glory for Kaline, Cash, McAuliffe, Lolich, Freehan and Stanley.

Billy Martin made the '72 Tigers scrappy before scrappy was cool.

Heath
05-16-2006, 11:59 AM
I don't like game 6 of the 75 World Series either. I much prefer game 7.

But...but..but..the Red Sox won the greatest game in World Series history, they had to have won the World Series, right???? :confused:








:D ;)

Hap
05-16-2006, 12:00 PM
Does anybody remember the details about JB and Fingers (I think) and starting to walk him intentionally but then fooling him by throwing strike 3?

That was in Game 3, which the Reds won, 1-0, anyway.

There were, however, a few positives from the series. Game 4 and Game 5 were two of the mose dramatic games the Reds have ever played. Jack Billingham pitched 13 innings without giving up an earned run; he still holds the record for lowest career ERA in WS play (25 1-3 innings, one earned run). Pete Rose had a leadoff homer in Game 5 on the first pitch.

RedsFan75
05-16-2006, 12:04 PM
Oh how I hated Gene Tenace and Joe Rudi! Thanks VP for bringing back all those memories! :angry: :)

Heath is right, all the passion was against the Pirates and the team that faced the A's was spent and all emotion and passion was drained. I remeber I kept waiting for them to play the way the had all season and my if my foggy memory serves, I recall the announcers mentioning that the Reds were playing almost as on automatic.

lollipopcurve
05-16-2006, 12:12 PM
I was at game 7, high up in the red seats in rightfield -- got a great look at Rudi scaling the leftfield wall to rob Menke (or Rose?). A 3-2 nailbiter that had the Reds frustrated at every turn. Went home to see the Bengals lose 15-12 to the Rams when Horst Muhlman botched an easy field goal (or perhaps more than one).

For many years I considered it the worst day of my life.

I laugh now!

Heath
05-16-2006, 12:12 PM
I remember I kept waiting for them to play the way the had all season and my if my foggy memory serves, I recall the announcers mentioning that the Reds were playing almost as on automatic.

And for the Reds to play on "auto-pilot" and take it to seven (with a blow win in game 6) was pretty impressive. Plus, they were down 3-1 at one point as well.

In '70 they were happy to be there.
In '72 they got mad.
In '73 the Mets had all their pitchers healthy and their hitters were hot.
In '75 they KNEW they had to win it all
In '76 they were on auto pilot or "team confidence" like Joe Morgan used to say.

westofyou
05-16-2006, 12:16 PM
To respond to woy - the '72 Tigers would have probably made that city's day. They did, the attendance that year wa sthe 3rd best to date in the history of the franchise.. a great year for Tiger Fans (who didn't know that Billy Martin was killing their future pitching) I went to a mess of games that year including the clincher for the title and the 15 K playoff game by Joe Coleman.

traderumor
05-16-2006, 12:19 PM
Don't forget the A's were without Reggie. That is one reason their offense was even more non-existent but for freakin' Tenace.

Heath
05-16-2006, 12:21 PM
Don't forget the A's were without Reggie. That is one reason their offense was even more non-existent but for freakin' Tenace.

Gene Tenace is Cincinnati's Joe Hardy.

If this town was a little more liberal, Gene F. Tenace would have been more well known then Bucky F. Dent.

IowaRed
05-16-2006, 12:21 PM
Went home to see the Bengals lose 15-12 to the Rams when Horst Muhlman botched an easy field goal

Wow, a Horst Muhlman reference. I remember that name from my football cards

KittyDuran
05-16-2006, 12:26 PM
Oh how I hated Gene Tenace and Joe Rudi! Thanks VP for bringing back all those memories! :angry: :)

Heath is right, all the passion was against the Pirates and the team that faced the A's was spent and all emotion and passion was drained. I remeber I kept waiting for them to play the way the had all season and my if my foggy memory serves, I recall the announcers mentioning that the Reds were playing almost as on automatic.Yeah... thanks for the memories...:censored: IIRC Sparky said that statistically the Reds had the A's beat - tho' IMHO the A's SP was better. After that WS - I hardly looked at stats - because you might as well throw them out the window when an event (WS, Super Bowl, Olympics, playoffs) are on the line. Some athlete rises to the occasion, like Tenace-who could barely hit his weight, to become the hero.

remdog
05-16-2006, 12:31 PM
I remember the minister (who was a Reds fan from Dayton) whispering the score to me when he came out on Saturday. I also remember postponeing the honeymoon by a day in order to watch the 7th game. Things kinda' went downhill from there. :p:

Rem

Cyclone792
05-16-2006, 12:35 PM
One thing I've always been curious about, but have never heard anything ... before the Reds actually won the 1975 World Series, was there ever a sense of "oh no, we can't win the big one ... " that gripped Reds fans?

The reason I ask is because during the 1975 season and playoffs, this is what the Reds recent history looked like:

1970: Won NL Pennant and NL West at 102-60 ... Lost in WS 4 games to 1
1972: Won NL Pennant and NL West at 95-59 ... Lost in WS 4 games to 3
1973: Won NL West at 99-63 ... Lost in NLCS 3 games to 2
1974: Second place in NL West despite finishing 98-64

Prior to winning the 1975 World Series, the Reds had four very good teams, reached the playoffs three times and won the NL Pennant twice, but came up short in winning it all each season. And then in Game 6 of the World Series vs. Boston, Fisk hits the dramatic home run to send the Series to the final game.

What was the feeling of Reds fans at that time before we ever won the 1975 World Series? I know today many people make a semi-big deal over teams that consistently reach the playoffs, but never ultimately win the World Series (including the Braves, who only have 1995 to their credit despite their array of consecutive division titles).

Did the Reds carry these same labels before winning Game 7 in 1975, and did that Series victory coupled with the 1976 team destroying everything in its path erase any labels if they did exist?

Roy Tucker
05-16-2006, 12:39 PM
It was just a horribly frustrating series.

The Morgan trade had remade the team. It was supposed to finally, finally, finally, be the Reds' year. The Reds were favored and finally *supposed* to win.

Gene Tenace came out of nowhere and became the Reds' nemesis. Joe Rudi did his thing. It seemed like the A's were pulling miracles out of their butts left and right.

The Reds got down 3-1 but came back to force game 7. And lost.

All the games but Game 6 were nailbiters. And the Reds seemed to always be on the losing end of the nail-biting.

And Charlie Finley just hacked me off for no good reason.

Heath
05-16-2006, 12:43 PM
'73 was an abberation since the Mets pitching and hitting got hot and healthy. Plus, the Reds really didn't get going until Hal King went nuts around the 4th of July.

And don't forget '74. 98 wins - but finished 2nd.

As far as '75 is concerned - you win 108 games - and there are mulitple people doing things in every game. Plus, Rose moved to third to get Foster in the OF. I've never heard of the Reds being "close" but not in the vein as the Braves. The '71 and the '74 seasons took care of those.

As far as the '75-'76 clubs - 210 wins in 2 regular seasons. Wow. And there were nights the Reds were down 2, 3, or even 4 runs late in a ball game only to score that and more to win a game.

My dad always said it was like the Reds slept through 5 innings, get behind, and then say "Well, lets go out and win one". And they did.

shredda2000
05-16-2006, 01:02 PM
My dad always said it was like the Reds slept through 5 innings, get behind, and then say "Well, lets go out and win one". And they did.

They were carefully studying their opponents for five innings...finding their weak spots...jumping in the for the KILL in innings 6-9!!! :evil:

redsmetz
05-16-2006, 01:12 PM
I was at game 7, high up in the red seats in rightfield -- got a great look at Rudi scaling the leftfield wall to rob Menke (or Rose?). A 3-2 nailbiter that had the Reds frustrated at every turn. Went home to see the Bengals lose 15-12 to the Rams when Horst Muhlman botched an easy field goal (or perhaps more than one).

For many years I considered it the worst day of my life.

I laugh now!

I was working in a box factory downtown, where the Old Spaghetti Factory was, now where Paul Brown Stadium is, and I'd go up on the rooftop to eat my lunch on a nice day. I'm sitting there enjoy the day and I hear what sounds like a small airplane overhead. I look up and there was the Goodyear blimp going over us. Wow, it seemed so close.

Across the street from us were the produce warehouses, which I think were the ones Castellini owned. They'd get railcars in with potatoes and some would fall out of the cars onto the ground. The guys we then called hoboes would pick them up in cloth sacks and sell them to us for a couple of bucks.

IslandRed
05-16-2006, 01:19 PM
One thing I've always been curious about, but have never heard anything ... before the Reds actually won the 1975 World Series, was there ever a sense of "oh no, we can't win the big one ... " that gripped Reds fans?

I imagine so. I was just a kid during the BRM era, but from some books I remember reading (a couple of which I still have), the players were very definitely tired of being labeled as underachievers. And I can remember hearing everyone say stuff like "they'd better win it this time" going into the 1975 Series.

oneupper
05-16-2006, 01:21 PM
1972 was an interesting year for baseball. A player's strike took a couple of weeks off the beginning of the season.

Like WOY, I also too was a Tiger and Reds fan. The ALCS that year was just as exciting (or even more so) than the WS itself. I remember the Tigers came back from the brink of defeat in game 4 (it was a best of five), after being down by 2 in the 10th.

The A's won the last game 2-1 in a game that included Reggie Jackson stealing home (I think as part of a double steal and IIRC he got hurt on that play).

Tigers lost...so I figured, the Reds will get the (Jackson-less) A's. Twas not to be.

Strikes Out Looking
05-16-2006, 01:26 PM
I remember less than stellar defense from Bobby Tolan in the '72 series. Am I remembering correctly?

cumberlandreds
05-16-2006, 01:29 PM
You guys have it covered. I was only nine at the time so the details are kinda hazy for me now. I remember Tenace coming out of nowhere and hitting a bunch of home runs. Reggie Jackson had torn a groin or hamstring in the playoffs and was out of the WS. I can remember people saying that the Reds should win because of this but like many other WS someone comes out nowhere to be the hero. I really can't remember the A's faking the intentional walk against Bench but my dad laughed about this for years and the expression on JB's face when the pitch came down the middle. When you think about it that took guts for Dick Williams to call. Can you imagine what would have happened if Bench had swung and hit it out? It would have not been impossible for Charlie Finley to have run to the dugout and fired Williams on the spot. I can just remember being very disapointed in the end when Pete Rose flew out to end the WS.

tsj017
05-16-2006, 01:34 PM
This is the first Series I remember in any real detail (I was 8).

Heartbreaking. Damn that Gene Tenace and Joe Rudi! And Rollie Fingers, too!

In the 76 Series, I still had a mortal fear of the Reds facing Catfish Hunter, based on the 72 Series. We can't beat him! (We did, but just barely.)

IIRC, Bobby Tolan misplayed two fly balls at the fence in center in Game 7, basically costing the Reds the Series.

One game in Oakland (Game 5?) ended when Blue Moon Odom tried to tag up and score from third on a short fly ball beyond first base, near the line. Morgan made the throw to Bench to nail Odom.

If you check the stats for that series, it was almost all pitching. Not a lot of offense. Oakland's pitching shut down the BRM, and that was pretty much the story.

Speaking only for my 8-9-10-year-old self, there was a LOT of concern that the Reds couldn't win the big one. After the unexpected loss to the Mets in 73, I was convinced that 74 was THE YEAR. And they didn't even make the playoffs! When 75 rolled around, I was not at all confident. To make matters worse, the team struggled in April, losing 6 straight (I think) at one point. How could we never win a World Series with so many good players?

Fortunately, we got our happy ending. And we finally got revenge against the A's in 1990, which just made it even sweeter.

P.S.: Game 5 of the 72 playoffs was the first time I'd seen a "wild pitch". Me to my dad: "Can we do that? Does that run count? It does? Woo hoo!"

flyer85
05-16-2006, 01:54 PM
You are right. it was 1970. But still like to forget about him.:bang:it would seem you are making progress.

Hap
05-16-2006, 02:33 PM
One game in Oakland (Game 5?) ended when Blue Moon Odom tried to tag up and score from third on a short fly ball beyond first base, near the line. Morgan made the throw to Bench to nail Odom.

I recorded the game from ESPiN Classic and I have watched it a few times. Odom was probably safe. Bench was blocking the plate, but I think Odom got the foot in. He exploded in anger and actually shoved the umpire.

red-in-la
05-16-2006, 02:55 PM
One thing I've always been curious about, but have never heard anything ... before the Reds actually won the 1975 World Series, was there ever a sense of "oh no, we can't win the big one ... " that gripped Reds fans?

The reason I ask is because during the 1975 season and playoffs, this is what the Reds recent history looked like:

1970: Won NL Pennant and NL West at 102-60 ... Lost in WS 4 games to 1
1972: Won NL Pennant and NL West at 95-59 ... Lost in WS 4 games to 3
1973: Won NL West at 99-63 ... Lost in NLCS 3 games to 2
1974: Second place in NL West despite finishing 98-64

Prior to winning the 1975 World Series, the Reds had four very good teams, reached the playoffs three times and won the NL Pennant twice, but came up short in winning it all each season. And then in Game 6 of the World Series vs. Boston, Fisk hits the dramatic home run to send the Series to the final game.

What was the feeling of Reds fans at that time before we ever won the 1975 World Series? I know today many people make a semi-big deal over teams that consistently reach the playoffs, but never ultimately win the World Series (including the Braves, who only have 1995 to their credit despite their array of consecutive division titles).

Did the Reds carry these same labels before winning Game 7 in 1975, and did that Series victory coupled with the 1976 team destroying everything in its path erase any labels if they did exist?

A great deal was made AFTER the Reds had won the 1975 series that had they lost, they would have been labeled one of the great CHOKE teams of all time.....like the Minnesota Viking were after losing 4 Super Bowls.

I was at games 6 and 7 in 1972. My father-in-law to be had season tickets in the blue seats just few rows back of the dugout on the 1st base side. So we could almost reach out and touch the Reds player who was in the one-deck circle, but we couldn't see into the Reds dugout (whicH I have always thought was a shame). We did however get to stare right into the A's dugout....which was irritating to no end. At the end of game 7, Charlie Finley and his wife stood on the visting teams dugout an danced......ugh!

The weather was awful. Cloudy and cold and damp. In both games we were 5 row behind Bowie Kuhn.....a really nice...nice man.

Games 6 was great....Reds won 8-1 (IIRC correctly). Morgan had everybody going. He got on 1st a couple of times and A's pitchers went nuts trying to hold him on first.....he stole second anyway.

The Governor of Ohio (Gilligan I think was his name) sat above and behind us in the first row of the green seats. He was a Democrat and not well liked in Cincy.....I remember how he was booed when he was announced......he waved and just laughed.

I will never forget how Rose looked during those two games. Close up I mean. The man was the MOST amazing combination of intensity and unbridled joy I have ever seen. He was like a 10 year old kid in the HUGE man's body. I know people said (even Rose himself) that Pete was not physically gifted (ala Joe Morgan as a contrast) but I tell you, Rose was really put together.

You see this guy up close while he was playing ball and you think, "man, never let me meet this guy in a dark alley."

Anyway, the other memory I have is that close to field level at Riverfront, you felt like you almost lost sight of the outfielders at times because of the pronounced crown of the field (for drainage).

KittyDuran
05-16-2006, 03:06 PM
Teams are called "underachievers" and "chokers" only when there is no curse involved... :devil:

vaticanplum
05-16-2006, 03:18 PM
Oh, these are great memories, thanks guys. I can't believe you are all still Reds fans after an 8-1 win in the 6th game only go give way to a loss, good Lord.

So I asked my mom a little while ago what she remembers about this, and apparently she went to two WS games. I knew she had gone to several playoff games throughout the 70s, but somehow through my entire life she neglected to mention the World Series part. WTF Mom? Anywho, she said it was quite a heartbreaking loss (good job, Mom), but doesn't remember too much baseball-wise because she secretly liked the A's team. I always knew she liked Vida Blue, but then she pulls Rollie Fingers, Catfish Hunter, Sal Bando, and Bert Campaneras out of the air almost 35 years later. She spoke fondly of their hair and Victorian handlebar mustaches. My mother really loves baseball, but she likes the men of baseball just as much. It's shocking, I know.

KittyDuran
05-16-2006, 03:32 PM
My mother really loves baseball, but she likes the men of baseball just as much. It's shocking, I know.You know your mom is very normal... that's how I started liking baseball... to go to the games to see the boys on the field [and in the stands]. :D

RedsFan75
05-16-2006, 04:24 PM
I always knew she liked Vida Blue, but then she pulls Rollie Fingers, Catfish Hunter, Sal Bando, and Bert Campaneras out of the air almost 35 years later. She spoke fondly of their hair and Victorian handlebar mustaches. My mother really loves baseball, but she likes the men of baseball just as much. It's shocking, I know.


Funny, my Mom is as intense a fan as I am, and she is the one I get my passion for the game from. She always liked Bando, and Hunter, but thought that Fingers needed to lose the handlebar.

Dad on the other hand made several comments as to what he'd like to do with Fingers and that handlebar that would still be banned in most polite, and impolite conversation. :eek: :D

919191
05-16-2006, 05:43 PM
The 1972 series was special for me- I was 12 years old and had just really seriously started following baseball in 1971 (what a lousy season). My dad came home Saturday morning and had been given 4 tickets in the green seats behing third base. What a thrill for a 12 year old. I remember my mom pointing to someone on the plaza outside and saying it was Joe Black. Reggie Jackson hobbled out onto the field on crutches wearing a black suit to a chorus of boos. I remember both of Tenace's home runs that day. The following Saturday my dad got the same 4 seats (They were his bosses, and for whatever reason he could not go) and the Reds won that one, with Menke ending the game fielding a bouncer and forcing the runner at third. Before my dad died he gave me the Series yearbook he had autographed by Grimsley and all 8 tickets, which of course I still have.

LINEDRIVER
05-16-2006, 06:12 PM
Does anybody remember the details about JB and Fingers (I think) and starting to walk him intentionally but then fooling him by throwing strike 3?

OCTOBER 18, 1972...World Series, Game 3, Cincinnati at Oakland. Reds' pitchers Jack Billingham and Clay Carroll combine to shut out the Athletics on 4 hits, 1-0. Oakland manager Dick Williams uses strange but legal strategy with Rollie Fingers pitching to Johnny Bench in the eighth-inning. With runners on second and third, and a 3-2 count on Bench, Williams visits Fingers on the mound and points to first base thereby creating the impression that Bench will get an intentional fourth ball. Catcher Gene Tenace also signals for the intentional walk. Fingers throws a strike and a surprised Johnny Bench is called out on strikes.

vaticanplum
05-16-2006, 06:14 PM
I didn't realize there was pointing involved.

I think that's dirty. Smart as hell, maybe, but dirty.

RedsBaron
05-16-2006, 09:31 PM
The 1972 World Series remains my greatest disappointment as a Reds fan. I believe that the Reds, including its fans, were extremely overconfident going into the World Series. After the dramatic victory over Pittsburgh in the 1972 NLCS, I can recall someone, probably Sparky, announcing the two best teams in baseball (the Reds and Pirates) had already played. I sure underrated the A's, and I think the Reds did as well.
The Reds won the only "laugher" of the Series, an 8-1 victory that included a home run by Bench. I can recall reading an article the next day that quoted one A's hitter late in the game, perhaps Campaneris, telling Bench that "we never lose three in a row" and Bench growling "you've never played the Cincinnati Reds before."
In game seven,I can recall Rose not scoring from first on a long Morgan hit in the eighth; though Pete eventually scored on a Perez sacrifice fly, had he scored on Joe's hit, Morgan would've been on third when Tony hit his flyball and the Reds would've had two, not one, runs that inning.
I remember Rose being the final Reds hitter in the ninth, with the tying run on base. Pete drilled the pitch from Rollie Fingers, but not quite good enough; my memory tells me the ball was caught on the warning track and the A's were World Champions.
Yes, there were rumblings in Reds country that the Reds couldn't "win the big one, " unfair as that was, especially after the 1973 BRM fell in the NLCS to a Mets team that had gone 82-79 in the regular season. I can still remember a friend of mine, disgusted by the Reds post-season failures, turning off the TV and going to bed after the Reds fell behind 3-0 in game seven of the 1975 World Series! I stayed up, rejoiced in the World Championship, and then flunked a mid-term the next day. I never regreted that decision.

RFS62
05-16-2006, 10:01 PM
OCTOBER 18, 1972...World Series, Game 3, Cincinnati at Oakland. Reds' pitchers Jack Billingham and Clay Carroll combine to shut out the Athletics on 4 hits, 1-0. Oakland manager Dick Williams uses strange but legal strategy with Rollie Fingers pitching to Johnny Bench in the eighth-inning. With runners on second and third, and a 3-2 count on Bench, Williams visits Fingers on the mound and points to first base thereby creating the impression that Bench will get an intentional fourth ball. Catcher Gene Tenace also signals for the intentional walk. Fingers throws a strike and a surprised Johnny Bench is called out on strikes.




Rollie Fingers was on XM radio a few months ago talking about that.

He said when it went to 3-2 with first base open, Dick Williams called time out and ran out of the dugout to the mound. He told Fingers and Tenace, "now, I'm going to point to first like I'm telling you to walk him. Tenace, you stand up and signal for a pitchout. Then you throw the best damn slider you've got on the outside corner".

Fingers said when Williams left the mound, he and Tenace looked at each other like "what is this, little league?"

Morgan was on third, and Fingers said he somehow caught on to the play and as he started his motion, Morgan started yelling at Bench "they're gonna pitch to you!!!"

Fingers said he threw the best slider of his life, painted the knee high outside corner for strike three.

Deepred05
05-17-2006, 05:42 AM
Was it 72 or 71 that Campaneris threw that bat at the Detroit pitcher. ( I think it was Lerrin Lagrow or something like that.

cumberlandreds
05-17-2006, 06:41 AM
Was it 72 or 71 that Campaneris threw that bat at the Detroit pitcher. ( I think it was Lerrin Lagrow or something like that.

It was the 72 AL Playoffs.

RedsBaron
05-17-2006, 07:22 AM
I will never forget how Rose looked during those two games. Close up I mean. The man was the MOST amazing combination of intensity and unbridled joy I have ever seen. He was like a 10 year old kid in the HUGE man's body. I know people said (even Rose himself) that Pete was not physically gifted (ala Joe Morgan as a contrast) but I tell you, Rose was really put together.

You see this guy up close while he was playing ball and you think, "man, never let me meet this guy in a dark alley."


Pete Rose was a great athlete, but his physical gifts were different than those of Joe Morgan. I think Michael Y. Sokolove had a good comparsion of the physical skills of Rose and Eric Davis in his book "Hustle: The Myth, Life, and Lies of Pete Rose," originally published in 1990.
He noted that Rose had God given strength, spped, perfect vision and extraordinary hand-eye coordination. Of course Davis was similarly blessed, even more so--but Davis was not blessed with Rose's durability, an underappreciated physical gift.
At pages 74-75 Sokolove wrote:
"Davis is gifted--and impaired, too. What makes him necessarily a better athlete than the blocky but durable Rose***?"
"Only one thing does: Athleticism has come to be defined almost exclusively by speed, and, particularly in baseball, by the much-desired mix of speed and power". [remember that he was writing in the pre-steroid era when baseball was played in bigger stadiums with astroturf)
"Rose's durability, the basis for all of his most important records, was rarely defined as a 'gift.' although that's what it was. His father played semipro football into his early forties, competing against men twenty years younger, and while Rose inherited his mother's facial features, he took his father's body type. 'You're looking at my father's body,' he once said. 'Same body.'"
"Rose, a fancier of flashy, powerful sports cars-Ferraris, Porsches, BMWs-was himself a Volvo, well-made, dependable, and long lasting. It might not have been what he would have chosen for himself, but it served him well."
" ' You can't play as long as Pete did, and as many games a year as he did, unless you have the will to do it,' says [Larry] Starr [the Reds trainer]. 'But there are other guys with his desire, and they will break down.' "
" 'Part of it's luck, and Pete was very lucky in avoiding major injuries. But a b ig part of it is physical makeup. Pete was like his dad. He had a body that wore very well.' "
Starr would later add that most guys couldn't play day in and day out like Rose did: " They wouldn't make it to the all-star break. Pete's physical and mental makeup was unique."
Rose obviously worked very hard at his craft, and had tremendous desire, but he was blessed with a durable, and athletic, body. I appreciated that Sokolove didn't make the too often used assertion that if a player wasn't durable it was some sort of character flaw. Eric Davis showed remarkable character in coming back from his various injuries, and particularly in coming back to play after cancer, but his physical gifts did not include durability. If they had, he would be in the Hall of Fame.
,

Roy Tucker
05-17-2006, 08:02 AM
I thought Bench swung at strike 3 on that intentional walk fake-out.

RFS62
05-17-2006, 09:47 AM
I thought Bench swung at strike 3 on that intentional walk fake-out.


Nope, stood there like a statue.

oneupper
05-17-2006, 12:36 PM
Was it 72 or 71 that Campaneris threw that bat at the Detroit pitcher. ( I think it was Lerrin Lagrow or something like that.

Campaneris was suspended for the WS for that bat-slinging. But when Jackson went down, they changed it to the first 7 games of 1973.

(He wasn't much of a factor in the WS..btw).