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OnBaseMachine
05-19-2006, 09:53 AM
Dunn doesn't like The Shift
By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

PITTSBURGH | The Shift, the exaggerated shift, aggravates and frustrates Cincinnati Reds left fielder Adam Dunn.

When he comes to bat, teams routinely move the second baseman 30 feet into short right field and the shortstop moves to the right side of second base three infield defenders on the right side. The third baseman moves to the shortstop position and is the only infield defender on the left side.

That shift was invented nearly 60 years ago by Cleveland player/manager Lou Boudreau against Ted Williams, who steadfastly refused to bunt up the third-base line.

Dunn, too, is The Reluctant Bunter.

"You think about bunting," he said, "then you think, 'Naw, I'm not giving into that thing (the shift).' Now, I'm just used to it. But it is frustrating when you hit a ball up the middle that should be a base hit or you hit a ball hard between first and second and a guy in the outfield throws you out."

Trying anything to shake things up, manager Jerry Narron batted Dunn in the No. 2 spot Thursday, even though his hits these days are few.

Told his lineup was, uh, interesting, Narron smiled and said, "A little bit. Just trying to mix things up. Dunn gets on base, has a very good on-base percentage (team-high .381) and you know he is going to see a lot of pitches."

When it was mentioned he was batting second because of his on-base average and his discerning eye, Dunn said, "I still try to get on base any way I can. Getting on base is about all that's keeping me up here right now."

If he meant it was what is keeping him in the majors, that's a bit drastic. Yes, he is slump-ridden, 7-for-50 (.140) after Thursday. While he is a threat to homer every at-bat, leading the team with 13, he hasn't homered since May 10.

"I know it is going to get better it has to get better," he said.

Alas, in the fourth inning Thursday, with the Reds down three runs and the bases loaded with one out, Dunn hit into a double play.

Coffey perks up

Relief pitcher Todd Coffey's numbers continue to be eye-popping, the kind folks like to see in a closer 2-0, 0.76 ERA, 21 strikeouts in 23 2/3 innings.

Narron said before Thursday's game he isn't yet ready to make that appointment, preferring Coffey in the seventh and eighth innings.

"To me, the seventh and eighth innings are so huge and Coffey has been so effective there," said Narron. "That's one reason that it has been tough to put him in the ninth inning and say, 'You're the ninth-inning guy.' "

So, what happened Thursday? David Weathers, usually in the closer's role, pitched the seventh and eighth innings, then Coffey arrived in the ninth to protect a one-run lead, his first save opportunity this year after going 1-for-2 last year.

"Read whatever you want into it, but it was because Coffey pitched a long inning Wednesday and Weathers didn't pitch," said Narron. "We couldn't ask Coffey to pitch two innings today, so we reversed roles. If the same situation comes up (tonight), Coffey will be back pitching two and Weathers the ninth."

Phillips: a day off

Brandon Phillips was not in Thursday's lineup, replaced at second base by Ryan Freel.

"With Freel, with his numbers against right-handers (.173), we put him down in the order (eighth). He is 2-for-4 against Victor Santos (Pittsburgh starter)," Narron said. "But for Brandon Phillips, it is just a day off. Just a mental day off."

During the Reds' previous five games, all defeats, Phillips was 2-for-17 (.118).

Freel responded, going 2-for-3 with an RBI against Santos and had three hits on the day. Phillips entered the game in the seventh as part of a double switch.

Aurilia returning

Looking for a miracle potion, Narron plans to put Rich Aurilia in the lineup tonight when the Reds open a three-game interleague series in Comerica Park against American League Central leader Detroit.

Where? Narron isn't certain of that, but as he said, "He'll definitely be in there somewhere, probably at third base or designated hitter."

Aurilia is coming off the disabled list after suffering a strained groin. After Thursday's game, infielder Ray Olmedo was optioned to Class AAA Louisville.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0519redsnotes.html

medford
05-19-2006, 10:41 AM
If Dunn continues to bat 2nd ahead of Griffey, Kearns & Edwin I'd strongly encourage dropping down the bunt from time to time against the shift. Getting on base anyway should be more of a key in that spot, and it might force the opposition to take the shift off opening up the rest of the infield.

Redmachine2003
05-19-2006, 10:53 AM
Quit crying dunn and learn how to use the other field. Lay down a bunt hit a double down the 3rd base line and teams will stop doing the shift.

GAC
05-19-2006, 11:03 AM
Trying anything to shake things up, manager Jerry Narron batted Dunn in the No. 2 spot Thursday, even though his hits these days are few.

Told his lineup was, uh, interesting, Narron smiled and said, "A little bit. Just trying to mix things up. Dunn gets on base, has a very good on-base percentage (team-high .381) and you know he is going to see a lot of pitches."

When it was mentioned he was batting second because of his on-base average and his discerning eye, Dunn said, "I still try to get on base any way I can. Getting on base is about all that's keeping me up here right now."

Yep. That Narron is gonna ruin Adam Dunn. :lol:

traderumor
05-19-2006, 12:06 PM
I know teams are choosing their poison with the shift, much preferring Griffey or Dunn lay down a bunt or try to go the other way to slugging one out of the park, but it seems at some point some consideration has to be given to making efforts to go the other way more often by those two as Griffey has been doing of late. Pittsburgh was so bold to even shift with a man in scoring position. I dunno, I have mixed feelings still on Dunn making efforts to poke one through the left side as another way to get on base.

RedsManRick
05-19-2006, 12:22 PM
I don't see too many games live, but I can't remember the last time Dunn hit a grounder to the left side. If Dunn comes up with the bases empty, I'd love to see him put one down, if for no other reason than seeing the defense react during his next AB.

I don't see it as an ongoing thing, but given the right situatino, they could stand to benefit by keeping the defense honest.

Far East
05-19-2006, 12:23 PM
"He'll definitely be in there somewhere, probably at third base or designated hitter."

With the DH, the Reds may have sufficient offense to permit them to field a better defense. But there are so many defensive liabilities to possibly put at DH or on the bench.

Especially against southpaws, some of the questions to answer include:
1. How do Hatteberg and Dunn compare as defensive first basemen?
2. Is Hatteberg a better defender at 1B than is Dunn as an outfielder?
3. Would Encarnacion be more of an asset at 1B or even LF than at 3B?
4. Does Freel's offense warrant his starting?
5. Should Aurilia replace one of the lefty bats in the lineup?

So, to get the best gloves in the game against LH starers I'd like to see:
1B-DUNN
2B-PHILLIPS
SS-LOPEZ
3B-AURILIA
LF-ENCARNACION
CF-FREEL
RF-KEARNS
C-LARUE
DH-GRIFFEY

Putting EE in LF today is a leap of faith without having played there in ST, but sight unseen, and considering his athleticism, I'd predict equal or better results than from Dunn, even a better arm. Based on the terrible record of the Reds' defense so far, these are the 8 position players I'd prefer if I were a Reds' pitcher.

pedro
05-19-2006, 12:26 PM
We're going to get the best gloves into te game by putting a player at a position he has never played before and putting a statue at 3B? (TTBOMK)

redsfan4445
05-19-2006, 12:29 PM
It is simple.. all Adam has to do is learn to QUIT pulling outside pitches and go the other way..once he starts that, they wont shift.DUH!

traderumor
05-19-2006, 12:40 PM
It is simple.. all Adam has to do is learn to QUIT pulling outside pitches and go the other way..once he starts that, they wont shift.DUH!I am not an expert in hitting mechanics, but the problem is that a power hitter wants to roll that top hand and generates power by doing so, thus pulling the ball on the ground when hitting the top of the ball. To go the other way, one has to keep that top hand behind the ball and essentially slap at the ball, hence the term "slap hitters." That's why I have mixed feelings about Dunn purposefully attempting to go the other way.

Johnny Footstool
05-19-2006, 01:03 PM
It is simple.. all Adam has to do is learn to QUIT pulling outside pitches and go the other way..once he starts that, they wont shift.DUH!

Yep, pretty simple. Just completely change your approach and your swing mechanics.

lollipopcurve
05-19-2006, 01:03 PM
I am not an expert in hitting mechanics, but the problem is that a power hitter wants to roll that top hand and generates power by doing so, thus pulling the ball on the ground when hitting the top of the ball. To go the other way, one has to keep that top hand behind the ball and essentially slap at the ball, hence the term "slap hitters." That's why I have mixed feelings about Dunn purposefully attempting to go the other way.

Power hitters are not all alike. Some guys hit HRs all over the field (Pujols, Berkman, DLee). Dunn is quire pull-oriented, though he very occasionally will hit a ball well the other way. I do think your reference to the top hand is on target, and it may be involved in Dunn's tendency to yank the ball. I've said for a while now that going the other way is a skill that Dunn should work on, as it could elevate his already great production. I'm sure he's been working on it from time to time, though he hasn't demonstrated much progress -- I'm growing doubtful he can add it to his fundamental approach at the plate. We'll see.

Johnny Footstool
05-19-2006, 01:04 PM
BTW - it looks like we're having the same conversation on two threads:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46149

RANDY IN INDY
05-19-2006, 01:15 PM
It is simple.. all Adam has to do is learn to QUIT pulling outside pitches and go the other way..once he starts that, they wont shift.DUH!

It's all about staying long on the ball and getting good extension, releasing the power, out and away from the baseball. Watch Griffey. He doesn't roll the wrists over. His hands are "flat" through the hitting area and he gets wonderful lead arm extension. Matter of fact, if you roll them at less than the perfect time, you are more apt to get topspin on the ball (instead of backspin which gives you much more carry on the ball as a power hitter) and hit a ground ball to the right side of the infield. (If you are a lefthanded hitter/left side for a right hander) It also jerks the barrel of the bat back toward your body which I think decreases your overall power to all parts of the ballpark and surely limits the extension that you get "through the baseball."

Adam Dunn is strong enough to hit it out to any field without putting a perfect swing on the ball every time. As much as he gets pitched on the outside corner with two strikes, it would be a wonderful thing to see him start getting a few hits the other way, extending through the baseball instead of trying to jerk it to the right side. Quite a few of them would definitely fly out of the park. I'm sure Chambliss has suggested this to Dunn, and at some point, if he is smart, he will listen.

gm
05-19-2006, 01:21 PM
I don't see too many games live, but I can't remember the last time Dunn hit a grounder to the left side.

I think he cued one off the end of his bat, last year

He also hit an up/away pitch into the lcf gap against the Pirates in spring training, so he has the ability to hit the ball "where it's pitched"

And that's what Chambliss has emphasized with Adam in year's past

TeamBoone
05-19-2006, 01:44 PM
He was number 2 in the lineup for a reason... he gets on base a lot.

If he starts messing with his plate approach and bunting (bunting is an art and not all players can do it), he may not get on base as often. And that would defeat the whole purpose of batting him second.

traderumor
05-19-2006, 02:49 PM
Power hitters are not all alike. Some guys hit HRs all over the field (Pujols, Berkman, DLee). Dunn is quire pull-oriented, though he very occasionally will hit a ball well the other way. I do think your reference to the top hand is on target, and it may be involved in Dunn's tendency to yank the ball. I've said for a while now that going the other way is a skill that Dunn should work on, as it could elevate his already great production. I'm sure he's been working on it from time to time, though he hasn't demonstrated much progress -- I'm growing doubtful he can add it to his fundamental approach at the plate. We'll see.
So it sounds like I need to qualify that as a "pull power hitter." Good point.

traderumor
05-19-2006, 02:51 PM
BTW - it looks like we're having the same conversation on two threads:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46149

I stayed out of that one based on the thread title, wouldn't even open it :laugh:

RANDY IN INDY
05-19-2006, 02:58 PM
So it sounds like I need to qualify that as a "pull power hitter." Good point.

I would take it one step further and call him a "top hand dominant" hitter.

Reds1
05-19-2006, 04:14 PM
Quit crying dunn and learn how to use the other field. Lay down a bunt hit a double down the 3rd base line and teams will stop doing the shift.


that's all good in theory, but it's very difficult for a power hitter to do this. I would rather seem him throw some bunts. He doesn't even have to be perfect. Just get it down and not let the pitcher get it and he's on. That will change things. I would tell him to take one rip at a hit aka HR for Dunn and then with 1 strike give it a go for a bunt and then if he gets 2 strikes on him then go back to hitting. Or hell, just bunt the ball. I think it would change things up, but he looks like he goes up there lately and he's not sure what he wants to do.

KronoRed
05-19-2006, 04:36 PM
Quit crying dunn and learn how to use the other field. Lay down a bunt hit a double down the 3rd base line and teams will stop doing the shift.
No they won't they will keep doing it, that WANT a bunt instead of a potential upper deck HR.

RANDY IN INDY
05-19-2006, 04:38 PM
Dunn is what he is. He can't change.

pedro
05-19-2006, 04:48 PM
Dunn is what he is. He can't change.

Nor do I really want him too. Although I would hope through time that he gets better at hitting those pitches he does decide to swing at.

BoydsOfSummer
05-19-2006, 04:49 PM
I'd like it noted that I don't like the shift either.

Carry on.

GAC
05-19-2006, 05:02 PM
I'd like it noted that I don't like the shift either.

I definitely hate 3rd shift. Been on it for 11 years and it's killing me! :lol:

If Dunn hates the shift so much then he should, since I don't think he's a Dunntz (pun intended), learn to take what they give him.

For every action, there is a reaction.

As long as the shift is being successful against him, and he, as a hitter, does nothing to overcome it, then he will be at their mercy.

And I don't follow this notion that for him to broaden/widen his game, he would really screw himself up.

So we now have Dunn's "achilles heel"? When it comes to hitting - he is one dimensional and can't use the entire field.

I don't believe that.

RANDY IN INDY
05-19-2006, 05:04 PM
I definitely hate 3rd shift. Been on it for 11 years and it's killing me! :lol:

If Dunn hates the shift so much then he should, since I don't think he's a Dunntz (pun intended), learn to take what they give him.

For every action, there is a reaction.

As long as the shift is being successful against him, and he, as a hitter, does nothing to overcome it, then he will be at their mercy.

And I don't follow this notion that for him to broaden/widen his game, he would really screw himself up.

So we now have Dunn's "achilles heel"? When it comes to hitting - he is one dimensional.

I don't believe that.

My last post was in "total sarcasm" and I agree with everything you said, GAC, including 3rd shift. I hate that too!:beerme:

Mario-Rijo
05-19-2006, 07:54 PM
This guy has the power to hit it out of any park and any part of said park. Hitting to the opposite field doesn't mean you have to take some power out of the equation. But you do need to change your approach some. Otherwise you will be hitting .200 for a long time to come. And for the record if it was a game-changing AB in the game and what we Need is a baserunner and he refuses too then what is he really worth. And I have seen this a time or 2 this season where I felt he or Jr. could have layed down a bunt and put us in an excellent position instead they swing away.

What really confuses/irks me is that he has no qualms with taking 1st via the walk on "close pitches" for the good of the team but he isn't willing to bunt in a situation that he will likely end up on 1st if he does??!!

Raisor
05-19-2006, 07:57 PM
What really confuses/irks me is that he has no qualms with taking 1st via the walk on "close pitches" for the good of the team but he isn't willing to bunt in a situation that he will likely end up on 1st if he does??!!

and what confuses ME is that some of the people wanting him to bunt are people that think he walks too much.

:devil:

GAC
05-19-2006, 08:06 PM
and what confuses ME is that some of the people wanting him to bunt are people that think he walks too much.

:devil:

And bunting may be considered a "fundamental", but that does not mean players can still do it, and execute it well.

I just can't see Dunn EVER being even a decent bunter.

Bunting for a hit is for the Rickey Henderson types.... not the Dunns.

redsfanmia
05-19-2006, 08:11 PM
Dunn is what he is. He can't change.
Because changing would take work and it seems to me that he struggles with a work ethic. Im sorry but having played baseball for 20+ years I know that its not that hard to go with the pitch and drive it the other way, the weak groundouts Dunn hits to second base is due to his trying to pull everything. I have always liked Dunn but this season I am really growing tired of his lack of improvement on defense and his refusal to change his approach at the plate.

westofyou
05-19-2006, 08:14 PM
I am really growing tired of his lack of improvement on defense and his refusal to change his approach at the plate.
Some guys won't change their approach after a 3 week slump.. some never.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45838

Raisor
05-19-2006, 08:16 PM
Because changing would take work and it seems to me that he struggles with a work ethic. Im sorry but having played baseball for 20+ years I know that its not that hard to go with the pitch and drive it the other way,.


If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it.

redsfanmia
05-19-2006, 08:19 PM
[QUOTE=westofyou]Some guys won't change their approach after a 3 week slump.. some never.
Honestly are you satisfied with Dunn? I just expect better things from him, I guess thats my fault. Have you seen any improvement in the few years he has been in the league? I think he is virtually the same player that he was 3 years ago, tell why I am wrong.

westofyou
05-19-2006, 08:28 PM
Honestly are you satisfied with Dunn? 2006?
Not really... but the season is young and I've seen this slump before, every May, as far as his career hell yeah I'm satisfied. The man is a pure power hitter with awesome on base skills, he's a unique player on many levels.

And frankly his back isn't wide enough for the load of expectations that people project on him day in and day out.

penantboundreds
05-19-2006, 08:51 PM
Dunn is God!!! The man has no flaws. He doesn't need to go the other way because he can't. His RISP average is false it doesn't prove anything. Blah Blah Blah...the fact is Dunn has a terrible approach with RISP.

**all the rest is simply guessing**

pitchers out research and out video Adam Dunn, and that is sad. They know he won't swing at a first pitch fastball on the outside corner and if they don't miss their target they are fine. They also know that he chases when he gets two strikes. Dunn needs to know this and he should know the opposing pitchers tendencies. Is there an article anywhere on this information? Or a pitch sequence when Dunn is up with RISP.

westofyou
05-19-2006, 09:09 PM
Dunn is God!!! The man has no flaws. He doesn't need to go the other way because he can't. His RISP average is false it doesn't prove anything. Blah Blah Blah...the fact is Dunn has a terrible approach with RISP.

What a load of reactive baiting.

And yes he has a RISP problem this year.

redsfanmia
05-19-2006, 09:12 PM
If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it.
Most good hitters do it so its not really that challenging.

redsfanmia
05-19-2006, 09:16 PM
2006?
Not really... but the season is young and I've seen this slump before, every May, as far as his career hell yeah I'm satisfied. The man is a pure power hitter with awesome on base skills, he's a unique player on many levels.

And frankly his back isn't wide enough for the load of expectations that people project on him day in and day out.

I see your point about being satified about his career but what about the question of improvement? I was wondering if you have seen drastic improvement in any facet of Dunn's game since he has been in the bigs? I think that defensively he has regressed and offensively he is basically the same player, just my opinion ofcourse.

westofyou
05-19-2006, 09:25 PM
I think that defensively he has regressed and offensively he is basically the same player, just my opinion ofcourse.
He has old player skills. defensively I think it's a wash, personally I'd like to see him at 1st.

K's and Batting average seem to be what makes everyone freak about Dunn. (aside from that 23% of his ab's are with RISP feeding that obsession) It's not the norm when looking at elite run producers, but it's not without comparable players from the past.


Best MLB RC 27 vs the league 25 and under


CAREER
MODERN (1900-)
AGE <= 25
AVERAGE vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
STRIKEOUTS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

RUNS CREATED/GAME DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AVG SO
1 Ted Williams 8.07 13.38 5.31 .079 30
2 Babe Ruth 7.29 11.86 4.57 .055 150
3 Benny Kauff 6.22 10.89 4.68 .089 20
4 Ty Cobb 5.50 9.73 4.22 .107 0
5 Johnny Mize 5.47 10.50 5.03 .065 17
6 Mickey Mantle 5.41 10.20 4.79 .050 304
7 Jimmie Foxx 5.41 10.87 5.46 .051 233
8 Stan Musial 5.40 9.88 4.48 .086 -73
9 Joe Jackson 5.24 9.65 4.41 .100 -51
10 Lou Gehrig 5.20 10.57 5.37 .051 140
11 Elmer Flick 5.15 10.59 5.44 .069 0
12 Frank Thomas 4.95 9.47 4.51 .059 25
13 Chuck Klein 4.74 10.81 6.07 .064 34
14 Albert Pujols 4.43 9.58 5.15 .064 -158
15 Tris Speaker 4.27 8.69 4.43 .077 -24
16 Paul Waner 4.17 9.25 5.09 .074 -60
17 Joe DiMaggio 4.15 10.11 5.96 .054 -78
18 Charlie Keller 3.87 9.14 5.27 .025 75
19 Arky Vaughan 3.76 8.78 5.02 .051 -95
20 Dick Allen 3.72 8.03 4.32 .050 223
21 Mike Donlin 3.71 9.12 5.42 .055 0
22 Frank Chance 3.62 8.76 5.13 .026 0
23 Rogers Hornsby 3.56 7.73 4.16 .068 52
24 Kal Daniels 3.56 8.04 4.48 .042 37
25 Lance Berkman 3.56 8.96 5.41 .040 33
26 Mel Ott 3.54 8.87 5.33 .026 15
27 Wade Boggs 3.53 8.05 4.53 .092 -57
28 Eddie Collins 3.44 7.79 4.34 .073 0
29 Hank Greenberg 3.37 8.94 5.57 .039 138
30 Willie Mays 3.36 8.29 4.93 .039 12
31 Eddie Mathews 3.27 8.22 4.95 .013 160
32 Eric Davis 3.26 7.95 4.69 .008 136
33 Joe Medwick 3.25 8.28 5.03 .059 44
34 Pete Reiser 3.17 7.71 4.54 .058 48
35 Frank Robinson 2.99 7.81 4.83 .035 69
36 Rudy York 2.98 8.94 5.96 .014 79
37 Mike Greenwell 2.96 7.46 4.50 .058 -113
38 Will Clark 2.91 7.37 4.46 .044 91
39 Jimmy Sheckard 2.90 7.85 4.94 .028 0
40 Jim Bottomley 2.90 8.18 5.28 .055 14
41 Don Mattingly 2.89 7.44 4.55 .069 -172
42 Ralph Kiner 2.86 7.84 4.98 .008 98
43 Fred McGriff 2.84 7.32 4.47 .008 168
44 Al Simmons 2.83 8.29 5.46 .059 42
45 Ken Griffey Jr. 2.79 7.42 4.62 .039 -6
46 Jim Thome 2.77 7.96 5.19 .017 149
47 Alex Rodriguez 2.74 8.03 5.29 .038 101
48 Bobby Abreu 2.68 7.99 5.31 .039 80
49 Ron Blomberg 2.67 6.76 4.09 .052 -36
50 Tony Oliva 2.64 6.89 4.25 .067 -68
51 Sherry Magee 2.63 6.88 4.25 .041 -10
52 Tim Raines 2.55 6.95 4.40 .036 -70
53 Dick Wakefield 2.54 6.91 4.37 .048 25
54 Hank Aaron 2.53 7.43 4.90 .054 -94
55 Willie McCovey 2.52 7.08 4.57 .019 78
56 John Olerud 2.49 7.14 4.65 .034 -10
57 David Justice 2.46 6.97 4.51 .016 45
58 Bill Madlock 2.43 6.84 4.40 .074 -85
59 Nomar Garciaparra 2.43 7.67 5.24 .050 -116
60 Fred Lynn 2.42 6.68 4.26 .045 13
61 Todd Helton 2.41 7.73 5.32 .042 -65
62 Manny Ramirez 2.39 7.67 5.28 .032 79
63 Darryl Strawberry 2.36 6.94 4.58 .002 256
64 Vladimir Guerrero 2.34 7.69 5.34 .048 -125
65 Sam Crawford 2.31 6.87 4.56 .039 0
66 Richie Zisk 2.31 6.75 4.44 .048 54
67 Jim Rice 2.31 6.59 4.28 .046 170
68 Bill Skowron 2.26 7.14 4.89 .052 2
69 Rickey Henderson 2.24 6.71 4.47 .027 16
70 Harry Lumley 2.23 6.70 4.47 .039 0
71 Ryan Klesko 2.22 7.29 5.07 .016 60
72 Harmon Killebrew 2.20 6.96 4.76 -.001 194
73 Danny Tartabull 2.20 6.86 4.66 .025 161
74 Roger Bresnahan 2.20 7.25 5.06 .023 0
75 J.D. Drew 2.18 7.65 5.47 .018 46
76 Wally Berger 2.15 7.83 5.68 .018 50
77 Bobby Bonds 2.15 6.56 4.42 .018 273
78 Adam Dunn 2.14 7.27 5.14 -.020 315
79 Tim Salmon 2.13 7.08 4.95 .008 102
80 Hal Trosky 2.12 8.04 5.92 .024 34
81 Rocky Colavito 2.12 6.78 4.66 .009 66
82 Ross Youngs 2.12 6.64 4.53 .045 76
83 Mike Piazza 2.10 7.05 4.95 .041 5
84 Reggie Jackson 2.09 6.28 4.19 .006 324
85 John Mayberry 2.09 6.24 4.15 .002 44
86 Wally Judnich 2.07 7.24 5.18 .025 25
87 Goose Goslin 2.01 7.42 5.40 .036 22
88 Mike Schmidt 2.00 6.48 4.48 -.016 256
89 Mark Teixeira 2.00 7.01 5.01 .013 67
90 Mike Hargrove 1.99 6.17 4.18 .053 -17
91 Mark Grace 1.99 6.19 4.21 .050 -62
92 Jack Fournier 1.96 5.90 3.93 .036 7
93 Jason Kendall 1.95 7.12 5.17 .041 -133
94 Enos Slaughter 1.94 6.79 4.85 .031 -8
95 Bernie Carbo 1.93 6.42 4.50 .006 56
96 Larry Doyle 1.89 6.29 4.40 .041 -71
97 Barry Bonds 1.88 6.39 4.51 .004 39
98 Alvin Davis 1.86 6.41 4.55 .019 -26
99 Scott Rolen 1.86 7.15 5.30 .012 127
100 Orlando Cepeda 1.85 6.57 4.72 .043 51

KronoRed
05-19-2006, 09:28 PM
I really don't care if he ever improves, not all players keep getting better, some are just how they are.

I'd rather have what we have in him instead of a guy who ops's in the sub .500's for 3 years before getting it.

TeamBoone
05-19-2006, 09:31 PM
I have always liked Dunn but this season I am really growing tired of his lack of improvement on defense and his refusal to change his approach at the plate.

Where did you hear/read that he refuses to change his plate approach? I read that he was working on it, per JN's request.

SandyD
05-19-2006, 09:36 PM
BTW, the shift is more than 60 years old. In the Negro Leagues, opponents used the shift against John Beckwith, for one, in the 20s and early 30s. And Beckwith would occasionally lay down a bunt. Didn't change anything. I'm pretty sure it was used elsewhere.

As for Dunn ... of course he doesn't "like" the shift.

redsfanmia
05-19-2006, 09:41 PM
I really don't care if he ever improves, not all players keep getting better, some are just how they are.

I'd rather have what we have in him instead of a guy who ops's in the sub .500's for 3 years before getting it.


You dont want to see Dunn improve? You like seeing him butcher play after play in left? When he plays first he looks uninterested and has terrible footwork and reactions do you want to watch that? I wish he could adjust his approach at the plate a little to make himself a better run producer but I can live with his offense, but his defense is awful and has not shown the ability or actually any desire to improve it.

redsfanmia
05-19-2006, 09:42 PM
Where did you hear/read that he refuses to change his plate approach? I read that he was working on it, per JN's request.


Just an observation, I have not seen or heard anything just going by what I see when I watch him hit.

westofyou
05-19-2006, 09:57 PM
BTW, the shift is more than 60 years old. In the Negro Leagues, opponents used the shift against John Beckwith, for one, in the 20s and early 30s. And Beckwith would occasionally lay down a bunt. Didn't change anything. I'm pretty sure it was used elsewhere.

As for Dunn ... of course he doesn't "like" the shift.
Yep, and when he hit a home run people threw money at him.

What do you think he would rather do?

KronoRed
05-19-2006, 10:06 PM
You dont want to see Dunn improve? You like seeing him butcher play after play in left? When he plays first he looks uninterested and has terrible footwork and reactions do you want to watch that? I wish he could adjust his approach at the plate a little to make himself a better run producer but I can live with his offense, but his defense is awful and has not shown the ability or actually any desire to improve it.
I'd love to see him get better, but I'm fine with how he is now.

Raisor
05-19-2006, 10:10 PM
I'd love to see him get better, but I'm fine with how he is now.


Exactly. I'd love to see him be a 1.000 OPSing monster, but I can certainly live with him being a 900 OPS almost monster.

SandyD
05-19-2006, 10:34 PM
:laugh:

In some minor league parks, they still take up a collection for a player after a home run.

When Beckwith came to the plate, the fans wanted a home run. He was the "Black Babe Ruth" just about contemporary with Babe Ruth. (and before Josh Gibson.)

As for Dunn, I wouldn't be upset if he tried to lay down a bunt once in a very long while ... but I really don't want him spending a lot of time "working" on his bunting. I don't think he'd be very successful, and I don't think it would stop "the shift." Only hitting to all fields would do that.

Dunn is a big, laid back Texan. Which just might translate into "laziness" or "poor work ethics" in the "industrious Mid West." ;)

westofyou
05-19-2006, 10:41 PM
Dunn is a big, laid back Texan. Which just might translate into "laziness" or "poor work ethics" in the "industrious Mid West." That German work ethic stuff plus calvanism can create quite a taskmaster.

WVPacman
05-20-2006, 12:26 AM
Hey Dunn,like I said before just lay down a bunt every once in a while AND start hitting the ball to left field and your problems would get fixed.

reds44
05-20-2006, 12:36 AM
If Dunn went up and bunted 5 straight times A. his average would improve and B. people would stop shifting him.

As soon as the stopped the shift go back to swinginig, as soon as they go back to the shift, start bunting.

Is this going to happen? Of course not.

Johnny Footstool
05-20-2006, 12:36 PM
If Dunn went up and bunted 5 straight times A. his average would improve and B. people would stop shifting him.

As soon as the stopped the shift go back to swinginig, as soon as they go back to the shift, start bunting.

Is this going to happen? Of course not.

His average would improve? Seriously, who cares about him improving his average by simply bunting his way to first? Dunn doesn't have any problems getting to first base via the walk.

If Dunn bunted 5 straight times, he would probably only be successful once or maybe twice, and he would be cheating himself out of the opportunity to do what he does best -- slug the ball.

DoogMinAmo
05-20-2006, 01:12 PM
The trick to stopping the shift is have Freel or Lopez on second every time they try and pull of the shift. Let them steal third every time because no one is covering the bag and get mondo leads off third too, then the shift will stop.

The only thing more old world than the shift is the threat of a RISP, and doing it by the stolen base.

gonelong
05-20-2006, 05:12 PM
You dont want to see Dunn improve?

I'd like all humans to improve in their endeavors. Its doesn't mean I bad-mouth them or berate them for not doing things the way I'd want them to do it, especially when they are already successful doing it their own way.

If you are waiting for Dunn to sink his heart and soul into baseball you are going to be waiting awhile. He wants to be a football player when he grows up, or maybe even a professional fisherman. He plays baseball because he can make a ton of money at it. Sure, he doesn't seem to sink a bunch of time getting better at his craft ... personally, I don't hold that against him. Look around your workplace and figure out how many guys are working on their craft outside of work hours. Little to none for the most part. He pulls his weight ( and then some ) on natural ability. If he wants to be better he will, but I am fine with what he is giving us right now.

People get PO'd at Dunn because he is not who they want him to be. Its too bad, they are missing what he already is.

GL

KronoRed
05-20-2006, 05:30 PM
I'd like all humans to improve in their endeavors. Its doesn't mean I bad-mouth them or berate them for not doing things the way I'd want them to do it, especially when they are already successful doing it their own way.

If you are waiting for Dunn to sink his heart and soul into baseball you are going to be waiting awhile. He wants to be a football player when he grows up, or maybe even a professional fisherman. He plays baseball because he can make a ton of money at it. Sure, he doesn't seem to sink a bunch of time getting better at his craft ... personally, I don't hold that against him. Look around your workplace and figure out how many guys are working on their craft outside of work hours. Little to none for the most part. He pulls his weight ( and then some ) on natural ability. If he wants to be better he will, but I am fine with what he is giving us right now.

People get PO'd at Dunn because he is not who they want him to be. Its too bad, they are missing what he already is.

GL
Excellent post :clap:

wheels
05-20-2006, 05:35 PM
Why people are making a fuss over a guy who,

A. Makes the fewest outs of anyone on the team

and

B. Has the most power on the team

is beyond my comprehension.

KronoRed
05-20-2006, 05:37 PM
Why people are making a fuss over a guy who,

A. Makes the fewest outs of anyone on the team

and

B. Has the most power on the team

is beyond my comprehension.
Because he's not Pete Rose/Joe Morgan/Johnny Bench/ext.

CrackerJack
05-20-2006, 07:28 PM
Because he's not Pete Rose/Joe Morgan/Johnny Bench/ext.

Yep, he doesn't win every game by himself, doesn't get a hit every time up, and he doesn't "hustle."

Trade him!

redsfanmia
05-20-2006, 10:33 PM
Why does everyone focus on Dunn's hitting? I am really speaking of his lack of improvement on defense, Wily Mo used to get drilled on this board because of his defense. Griffey still gets drilled on this board becaue he cant flag down everything in center anymore. Yet Dunn gets a pass for his awful outfield play, I personally dont get it. It always gets turned into a leave Dunn alone thing he is a great offensive player, thats not what im posting about. I want the guy to become an acceptable defensive player, I wish he would be more of a run producer but can live with what he is, its the defense and really even baserunning that he needs to improve on. I am not asking him to win a gold glove but just dont lead the league in outfield errors.

westofyou
05-20-2006, 11:18 PM
Why does everyone focus on Dunn's hitting? I am really speaking of his lack of improvement on defense, Wily Mo used to get drilled on this board because of his defense.Well WMP couldn't generate anything but power so his defense in a more needy position (RF and CF) is more of an issue.

As for worrying about the LF defense, it's way in the back of the line. Any past history that has had to watch Kevin Mitchell, Kal Daniels or guys like that only make the point more IMO, it's the place you hide guysin MLB, always has been.

KronoRed
05-20-2006, 11:36 PM
Yep, he doesn't win every game by himself, doesn't get a hit every time up, and he doesn't "hustle."

Trade him!
If he sucks so much who would want him? :evil:

GAC
05-21-2006, 09:55 AM
Why people are making a fuss over a guy who,

A. Makes the fewest outs of anyone on the team

and

B. Has the most power on the team

is beyond my comprehension.

And I agree wheels. I think what "urks" some is that he should have greater RBI totals/season seeing where he bats in the order.

Of course, then the argument is proposed (and a valid one too), concerning the guys ahead of him getting on base.

But our team this year is one of the ML leaders in OB% (8th = .350), which tells me that there have been increased opportunities for Adam in the RBI department.

In April, we had guys hitting ahead of him with a high OB%.

Yet he is tied for 50th place overall with 28 RBI's.

And he really, really struggles vs LH'd pitching.

Am I worried about Adam Dunn? No.

Just have not been to "excited" about his overall performance, especially in the area of situational hiting, in the early stages of this new season.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2006, 11:43 AM
And he really, really struggles vs LH'd pitching.


Dunn has actually been much better vs lefties this year than he has righties. I have no clue why. Dunn is hitting .250/.444/.596 vs lefties and just .214/.345/.551 vs right-handers.

Usually it's the other way around for him. Last year he hit .273/.421/.580 vs RHP and .197/.321/.463 vs LHP. 2004 saw Dunn hit .271 and OPS 1.015 vs RHP and .256 with a .829 OPS vs LHP.

It's encouraging to see Dunn hitting lefties well again this year. We already know he can right-handers well, so once he starts doing that again then we expect a rise in his batting average, OBP and SLG.

TeamBoone
05-21-2006, 01:34 PM
Maybe he was working hard on improving his hitting against lefties and his hitting against righties suffered as a result. That happens sometimes.

I can't wait until he gets it figured out for both, rather than one vs the other. Can you even imagine the power he will be?