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6-4-3
05-19-2006, 04:35 PM
If you need a laugh on this Friday...

Per Marc

DETROIT -- I didn't believe they'd do it, but sure enough, the Reds have signed Joe Mays to a minor-league contract.

Mr. Mays, you may recall, made six starts for the Royals this year, going 0-4 with a 10.27. He was designated for assignment May 8 and released May 16.

Matt700wlw
05-19-2006, 04:35 PM
Just to let everybody know

Joseph
05-19-2006, 04:36 PM
Just heard this on 1360.

Madness.

He was assigned to Louisville at least.

Reds Fanatic
05-19-2006, 04:37 PM
Unbelievable. It is like we go out of our way to collect players no other team would want.

Jr's Boy
05-19-2006, 04:37 PM
OMG:scared: ,sounds like a Dano signing if i've ever heard one.

RedsMan3203
05-19-2006, 04:38 PM
Low Risk, High Reward.

traderumor
05-19-2006, 04:38 PM
Well, at least they didn't hold a press conference to announce it as a "big acquistion" like they did with the signing of a pinch hitter three years ago.

princeton
05-19-2006, 04:40 PM
just did it to PO Bowden

MattyHo4Life
05-19-2006, 04:43 PM
Low Risk, High Reward.

You have the low risk part right.

Joseph
05-19-2006, 04:44 PM
At least he wasn't inserted directly into the big league rotation.

Reds Fanatic
05-19-2006, 04:45 PM
Mays this year had a 10.27 ERA, a 2.20 WHIP and a .389 opponent's AVG. Maybe they picked him up to make Williams' numbers look better.

dabvu2498
05-19-2006, 04:45 PM
Low Risk, High Reward.

Low risk... unless you're sitting in the bleachers in Louisville.

RedsMan3203
05-19-2006, 04:46 PM
You have the low risk part right.


Yah, I meant to say Low Risk, could be a high reward.....

Doc. Scott
05-19-2006, 04:50 PM
Geez, it's just Wayne Krivsky watching out for his peeps. Witness Brian Buchanan.

traderumor
05-19-2006, 04:50 PM
Hey, we have cornered the market on former crappy KC lefties with "May" in their name.

edabbs44
05-19-2006, 04:50 PM
Yep, one step closer to the playoffs. Just waiting for the Mets to cut Lima.

flyer85
05-19-2006, 04:51 PM
The Bats can start their own "Free Ball" night.

Joseph
05-19-2006, 04:51 PM
Yep, one step closer to the playoffs. Just waiting for the Mets to cut Lima.

Won't be long now...

KronoRed
05-19-2006, 04:52 PM
Royal castoffs.

CTA513
05-19-2006, 04:53 PM
Yep, one step closer to the playoffs. Just waiting for the Mets to cut Lima.

Get Oritz & Lima so you have someone to cut hair and someone to dye hair.

:p:

savafan
05-19-2006, 04:54 PM
I'm dumbfounded

Raisor
05-19-2006, 04:55 PM
He's a scrappy vet that knows how to win!

RANDY IN INDY
05-19-2006, 04:55 PM
He's a scrappy vet that knows how to win!

He's just forgotten a lot as of late.

savafan
05-19-2006, 04:56 PM
He's a scrappy vet that knows how to win!

Does he know how to win?

lollipopcurve
05-19-2006, 04:57 PM
harmless

just because -- anyone know his surgery history? all elbow or was the shoulder cut too?

Unassisted
05-19-2006, 04:57 PM
At least it nullifies the argument that there are better arms down in Louisville than the ones in the rotation. ;)

redsfan30
05-19-2006, 04:58 PM
When I first heard a couple days ago that the Reds were interested in Mays I was not happy, mainly because I figured he'd be inserted right into the Major League staff.

But him signing a Minor League deal changes my whole outlook on this. I love this signing. You stick him in Louisville and see if there is anything at all that can be salvaged out of him. If there is, you've got a pretty good pickup. If there's not, you dump him and pretend the whole thing never happened.

This is a very low risk, but potentially high reward deal and I like it.

RedsManRick
05-19-2006, 04:58 PM
Low Risk, High Reward.

I believe you meant "Low Risk, Low Reward."

Some Joe Mays stats for you:

ERAs since 2003: 5.38, 6.30, 5.65
k/9 since 2003: 3.59, 3.46, 3.40
OOPS since 2003: .785, .848, .866

These are frightenly bad numbers. You know how Williams has pitched this year? That's basically Joe Mays the past 3 years.

dabvu2498
05-19-2006, 04:58 PM
harmless

just because -- anyone know his surgery history? all elbow or was the shoulder cut too?

I'm not sure the arm is still attached.

Raisor
05-19-2006, 04:59 PM
Does he know how to win?


Mays won 17 games back in 01, and now that he's a Red I KNOW he can win at least that many this year!!!!!

All the way with Mays!!!!!!! gO REdS!

Roy Tucker
05-19-2006, 04:59 PM
Maybe they thought he was Willie Mays' brother.

traderumor
05-19-2006, 04:59 PM
Royal castoffs.Cincinnati, where even Royals rejects can still find work.

dabvu2498
05-19-2006, 05:01 PM
Mays won 17 games back in 01, and now that he's a Red I KNOW he can win at least that many this year!!!!!

All the way with Mays!!!!!!! gO REdS!

Rick Helling won 20 in 1998. Let's get him too.

I was shocked when I looked Helling up to find out he's still drawing a check.

Reds Fanatic
05-19-2006, 05:03 PM
harmless

just because -- anyone know his surgery history? all elbow or was the shoulder cut too?
He had a bone spur removed from his elbow in 2002 causing him to miss several weeks. That is the only major surgery I see he has had.

Caveat Emperor
05-19-2006, 05:05 PM
I'm dumbfounded

He's in Louisville and he'll help the Bats to a last place finish -- save the confused and slightly angry stares until he gets called up to replace Dave Williams after another shelling.

Although, it does bring up the point that the team is just wasting money by fielding a AAA squad this year. It's a team full of guys with 0 value over replacement benchwarmers and virtually no projectable talent anywhere. The Reds would've been better off just promoing the entire Chattanooga squad to AAA , the entire Sarasota squad to AA, etc. and not fielding a GCL team.

Raisor
05-19-2006, 05:06 PM
Rick Helling won 20 in 1998. Let's get him too.

I was shocked when I looked Helling up to find out he's still drawing a check.


tHAT"S a Grate idear. We needs more guys that know whats to do on that mound.

Caseyfan21
05-19-2006, 05:10 PM
There's not really anything to lose here. We stick him down at Louisville, give him a few starts and see what happens. If he gets shelled we cut ties and let him fade into retirement. If he does well then maybe after a month or so we could give him a look in Cincinnati. Krivsky obviously knows him from the Twins days, maybe he's seen a flaw or something he's changed since he was successful in 2001. He won 17 major league games in one season, that's not a claim any Reds starting pitcher has been able to make for the past few years. He may be far removed from that success but giving him a look in Triple A sure won't hurt anything happening in Cincinnati.

RANDY IN INDY
05-19-2006, 05:10 PM
Here's an apt line for some of the Reds pitchers. "He knew how to pitch.";)

RichRed
05-19-2006, 05:12 PM
Hey, we have cornered the market on former crappy KC lefties with "May" in their name.

Willie Mays Aikens is next.

RANDY IN INDY
05-19-2006, 05:14 PM
Willie Mays Aikens is next.

If Bud Black is included in the deal, with Buddy Biancalana as a throw in, they better jump on it.

Matt700wlw
05-19-2006, 05:15 PM
He had a bone spur removed from his elbow in 2002 causing him to miss several weeks. That is the only major surgery I see he has had.

Didn't he have Tommy John as well?

RANDY IN INDY
05-19-2006, 05:20 PM
Wonder if Paul Splittorff, Jim Rooker or Tom Burgmeir are available?

Reds Fanatic
05-19-2006, 05:20 PM
Didn't he have Tommy John as well?
Yes you are right. They didn't have it listed where I was checking before but I now see he also had Tommy John surgery in 2004. He missed the entire 2004 season with that surgery. So he has had 2 major surgeries.

redsmetz
05-19-2006, 05:25 PM
When I first heard a couple days ago that the Reds were interested in Mays I was not happy, mainly because I figured he'd be inserted right into the Major League staff.

But him signing a Minor League deal changes my whole outlook on this. I love this signing. You stick him in Louisville and see if there is anything at all that can be salvaged out of him. If there is, you've got a pretty good pickup. If there's not, you dump him and pretend the whole thing never happened.

This is a very low risk, but potentially high reward deal and I like it.

This has been my position all along. Krivskey knows him from his days with the Twins. He's down at the minors, not taking up a roster spot on the 40 man and see if he can straighten himself out. Wayne has shown he's not afraid to pick up discards on minor league deals and he's also shown that they're not wedded to them (e.g. Terrance Long). I think we've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. Will we? It's doubtful, but it adds something to the old toolbelt.

This isn't a huge event, IMO. I think there will be other moves within the week, besides the movements caused by folks coming off the DL.

timmario66
05-19-2006, 05:40 PM
Geez, it's just Wayne Krivsky watching out for his peeps. Witness Brian Buchanan.

In a case of irony Doc, Buchanan was released after Ray Ray was sent back according to Marc's blog.

Falls City Beer
05-19-2006, 05:41 PM
I'll go out on a limb here and say that Mays never sees major league action with the Reds.

dabvu2498
05-19-2006, 05:42 PM
I'll go out on a limb here and say that Mays never sees major league action with the Reds.

That limb is pretty sturdy I'd say.

timmario66
05-19-2006, 05:51 PM
In a case of irony Doc, Buchanan was released after Ray Ray was sent back according to Marc's blog.

1st Stratton and now Buchanan, can we all agree now that spring training stats don't matter.

Puffy
05-19-2006, 05:53 PM
blech.

flyer85
05-19-2006, 05:54 PM
Willie Mays Aikens is next.I vote for Willie Mays Hays. :thumbup:

Raisor
05-19-2006, 06:08 PM
blech.


it's spelled "bleach" and it's good at killing mildew.

klw
05-19-2006, 06:08 PM
I would have sworn there was something posted saying we had signed this guy during the off-season.

Oh just went through old threads, that was Darrell May. My bad.

pedro
05-19-2006, 06:14 PM
I think it's a fine signing.

As long as he never pitches for the Reds.

fisch11
05-19-2006, 06:18 PM
Per ESPN
"Mays was an All-Star with the Minnesota Twins in 2001 but hasn't been the same since he developed elbow problems. He had reconstructive surgery in 2003 and had to sit out the next year."

This guy had the stuff in '01, but nothing since. I don't think it's a bad move to put a low investment in a guy with signs of talent, even with surgeries. Could be a pay-off in the end, if not oh well it was worth a shot....for nothing. Not to compare but we put a low investment into Brandon Phillips and got a good reward.

RedLegSuperStar
05-19-2006, 06:30 PM
I don't mind the signing. Personally he has got to be able to put up better numbers then say Rick White or Dave Williams

Johnny Footstool
05-19-2006, 06:31 PM
In other Reds-related news, the Twins are trying to deal Kyle Lohse. BEWARE!

Hondo
05-19-2006, 06:33 PM
What about Kerry Wood or Barry Zito's of the world???

JaredRoberts.com

RedLegSuperStar
05-19-2006, 06:34 PM
In other Reds-related news, the Twins are trying to deal Kyle Lohse. BEWARE!

Having Twins ties like Wayne does.. we may be looking to offer a few warm bodies for him.

Topcat
05-19-2006, 07:02 PM
Having Twins ties like Wayne does.. we may be looking to offer a few warm bodies for him.

Could he be turned into a relief pitcher? Worth a shot trying it in minors I think and he came cheap :p:

reds44
05-19-2006, 07:11 PM
Why exactly do we all have a problem with signing a pitcher to a minor league deal?

I have no problems with this.

The Baumer
05-19-2006, 07:29 PM
Maybe Mays is taking the Lizard's place in the rotation at Lousville? Either way, grumble, grumble!

Chip R
05-19-2006, 07:44 PM
Let's add "to a minor league contract" to the title, shall we?

MrCinatit
05-19-2006, 08:05 PM
Much ado about nothing, folks. It is only a minor league contract.

Raisor
05-19-2006, 08:25 PM
Much ado about nothing, folks. It is only a minor league contract.

The problem with having a Joe Mays in the system is that, at some point, there's going to be the urge to use him.

TeamBoone
05-19-2006, 09:19 PM
Krivsky must have seen something. Maybe he thinks the Reds can fix what ever it is he's doing wrong.

Raisor
05-19-2006, 10:44 PM
Krivsky must have seen something. Maybe he thinks the Reds can fix what ever it is he's doing wrong.


If that's the case, they would have fixed it back in Minny.

indy_dave00
05-19-2006, 11:42 PM
Doesn't Lohse make a couple mil a year?

Gallen5862
05-20-2006, 12:28 AM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/content/printer_friendly/cin/y2006/m05/d19/c1461625.jsp
Notes: Reds sign veteran Mays
05/19/2006 7:30 PM ET
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

DETROIT -- The Reds' latest transaction certainly fell under the oft-used baseball mantra that you can never have enough pitching.
But how much pitching former All-Star Joe Mays can still provide a big-league team remains a mystery. Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky was willing to find out and signed Mays to a Minor League contract on Friday.

The 30-year-old Mays, who will report to Triple-A Louisville, had disastrous results this season for the Royals. He was 0-4 with a 10.27 ERA in six starts before being designated for assignment on May 8 and released on Tuesday.

Krivsky and Mays have a history together from their years with the Twins, with whom the sinkerball thrower pitched from 1999-2005. The attempted reclamation project offers the right-hander no assurance that he'll pitch in the Majors for Cincinnati. But it could benefit Louisville, which has several struggling pitchers.

"I felt like it was worth a shot," Krivsky said from Chattanooga, where he was watching the organization's Double-A affiliate. "We'll take him to Louisville and see if he can get going in a positive way. Hopefully, he can help us."

An owner of a 48-69 record and 4.98 ERA lifetime, Mays' only winning season was 2001 when he was 17-13 with a 3.16 ERA. It earned him an American League All-Star invite and a four-year, $20 million contract the following winter.

The signing ultimately backfired on the Twins. Mays went 18-26 with a 5.81 ERA during his final four years in Minnesota, which included numerous elbow problems and his missing the entire 2004 season after having Tommy John surgery.

Signed to a one-year, $1 million deal this winter by Kansas City, Mays allowed seven homers and lasted five innings just once in his six starts.

"He seems to think it's a matter of command," Krivsky said of Mays' issues this year. "Maybe he's been in the AL Central too long. Maybe it's time for a change."

Start him up: In an expected move, Rich Aurilia was activated from the 15-day disabled list on Friday. Aurilia started Friday's game at third base, which gave regular Edwin Encarnacion a rest.

The DH: If Reds manager Jerry Narron hadn't started Aurilia at third base, he would have used him as his designated hitter. The DH rule is in effect this weekend because the series is being played at an American League ballpark.

Switch-hitting backup catcher Javier Valentin was tabbed as Cincinnati's DH against Detroit right-hander Jeremy Bonderman. Valentin is better hitting left-handed.

"I'm just trying to make sure he gets some at-bats," Narron said. "The way it is here with two left-handers starting [on Saturday and Sunday], if he didn't catch tonight, he wouldn't get a start."



Complete coverage >Valentin had caught Elizardo Ramirez regularly, but his playing time is likely to diminish in the Reds' three-catcher rotation. Ramirez is coming out of the rotation to make way for Eric Milton's return from the DL.

"I don't get mad because I don't play," Valentin said. "Everybody wants to play. It's not an easy situation. It's hard. I'm going to be ready."

Valentin has six career games as a DH with Minnesota and Tampa Bay. He knew he'd be sitting a lot between at-bats, but he planned to try to stay as loose as possible.

"It's not easy, but I think I can do it," Valentin said.

Narron planned to use Adam Dunn as the DH on Saturday and Ken Griffey Jr. there on Sunday.

AL vs. NL: Friday's series opener at Detroit marked the first of 15 Interleague games for the Reds this summer. It's the 10th year for Interleague Play, and Narron has voiced a suggestion that several around the game have had for years.

"The one thing I always thought was [that] when you play Interleague in an American League park, you should play by National League rules and let the fans see that, and vice versa," Narron said.

Which league's rules did Narron prefer? The answer might be surprising.

"National League," he said. "That's after having spent 20 years in the American League, [playing, coaching and managing]. I just think it's a better overall game with the pitcher hitting. It has everybody involved."

Farm report: To make room for infielder Ray Olmedo, who was optioned to Louisville on Thursday to make room for Aurilia, outfielder Brian Buchanan was released. Buchanan impressed many with a strong Spring Training despite his not being an invite to big-league camp, but he batted .179 with three homers in 24 games for the Bats.

Johnny Cueto allowed one hit in a seven-inning shutout for Class A Dayton in a 5-0 win over Fort Wayne on Thursday. Cueto worked a five-inning no-hitter in his previous start.

Coming up: In his first start since April 18, Milton (2-1, 6.50 ERA) will return from left knee surgery when the Reds meet the Tigers on Saturday at 7:05 p.m. ET. Mike Maroth (5-2, 2.18 ERA) is slated to start for Detroit.

This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

Johnny Footstool
05-20-2006, 12:34 AM
The problem with having a Joe Mays in the system is that, at some point, there's going to be the urge to use him.

Bingo! Yahtzee! Goooooooooooooooooooal!

traderumor
05-20-2006, 12:51 AM
Here's what I don't get. You see GM's pick up crappy guys like Joe Mays because its someone they are familiar with. It would seem after watching Joe Mays pitch, for all but one year, you would stay far, far away from the dude because of that familiarity. I mean, he had just over 50 K's in over 150 IP last year.

What would make Krivsky think that he would want him to be around to even be a possible option to pitch even one inning for the Reds at some point in the season? If they have injuries, how many May, Mays, Michalak, Germano's does a team need? It gets almost as bad as recycling managers with these Eveready Bunny scrubs that just keep going and going and going...

StillFunkyB
05-20-2006, 12:58 AM
Mays won 17 games back in 01, and now that he's a Red I KNOW he can win at least that many this year!!!!!

All the way with Mays!!!!!!! gO REdS!

Phil, you have done smoked yourself retarded.....

Ok, now back to your regular "scrappy" thread....

REDREAD
05-20-2006, 01:22 PM
"The one thing I always thought was [that] when you play Interleague in an American League park, you should play by National League rules and let the fans see that, and vice versa," Narron said.
.

Yeah, I'm sure the Red Sox fans would love to see Ortiz sit when NL clubs come to down. Likewise, the White Sox fans would like to see the pitcher hit instead of Thome.

That's just a dumb idea.

Other than the DH, there's no difference between the "rules". Why would AL fans want to watch their DH sit while their inexperienced pitchers attempt to hit?

GOREDSGO32
05-20-2006, 01:30 PM
This is a move to bolster the crappy Bats pitching staff ... I can't blame them. It's not like this guy is getting called up anytime soon, the Bats need some serious help down here though.

SteelSD
05-20-2006, 02:27 PM
Here's what I don't get. You see GM's pick up crappy guys like Joe Mays because its someone they are familiar with. It would seem after watching Joe Mays pitch, for all but one year, you would stay far, far away from the dude because of that familiarity. I mean, he had just over 50 K's in over 150 IP last year.

What would make Krivsky think that he would want him to be around to even be a possible option to pitch even one inning for the Reds at some point in the season? If they have injuries, how many May, Mays, Michalak, Germano's does a team need? It gets almost as bad as recycling managers with these Eveready Bunny scrubs that just keep going and going and going...

tr, it's a Minnesota Twins M.O. That team has seen little in the way of real high value starting pitching trot through that organization for the past few years. Santana? Yes. But guys like Mays, Silva, Lohse, and even Brad Radke look like really good pitchers to them because they built the team defense-first. Take a gander at the following:

Strikeouts per 9 Innings Pitched 2001-2005:

Joe Mays:

2001- 4.74
2002- 3.59
2003- 3.46
2004- Injured
2005- 3.40

Brad Radke:

2001- 5.46
2002- 4.72
2003- 5.09
2004- 5.86
2005- 5.25

Kyle Lohse:

2001- 6.38
2002- 6.18
2003- 5.82
2004- 5.15
2005- 4.33

Carlos Silva:

2002- 4.39 (Pitt)
2003- 4.95 (Pitt)
2004- 3.37
2005- 3.39

Mays poor contract mercifully came to an end after last season. But the Twins should have been trying desperately to deal the rest of those guys during the offseason (particularly with Baker and Liriano on the horizon). Instead, they're getting paid a combined 16.15 Million bucks this season; equalling 25% of the team's payroll.

Furthermore, that team's inability to stop trying to make mediocre-to-bad pitchers better causes them to overspend on what they consider to be "defense-first" guys who template as offensive powder puffs. Torii Hunter is making 10M bucks this season. Tony Batista (.299 OBP/.401 SLG) is gobbling up starter-level PA when the Twins should be able to plop Michael Cuddyer (.396 OBP/.573 SLG) down at third and live with a defensive downgrade (it would actually be an upgrade, but the Twins don't think so). They're paying Juan Castro and his .514 OPS a million bucks to start a majority of games at Shortstop and they decided to roll a 2.5 million dollar die to see if Rondell White's 2005 800+ OPS was a mirage. And don't get me started on Shannon Stewart. At least they dumped Guzman after 2004, but they kept trying to give playing time to Luis Rivas (thankfully, he wouldn't let them).

To the Twins credit, Morneau should be hitting at this point, but isn't. Joe Mauer is hitting but not with power. And Luis Castillo is doing really well. But then, the Twins did include Travis Bowyer (a tremendous prospect if healthy) to the Fish in the Castillo deal when they should have been looking to grab young pitching and real offense while handing 2B to Luis Rodriguez instead. Hmn...

So what's the end result of all this defense-first maneuvering engineered to make mediocre-to-bad pitchers look better? Let's take a look:

Defensive Efficiency 2001-2006: Minnesota Twins

2001- .705 (MLB Rank- 10th)
2002- .709 (MLB Rank- 12th)
2003- .703 (MLB Rank- 15th)
2004- .693 (MLB Rank- 25th)
2005- .711 (MLB Rank- 6th)
2006- .650 (MLB Rank- 30th)

Well, that's interesting, isn't it? The Twins- a reported "defense and pitching" organization haven't really been all that good defensively excepting a hiccup in 2005. Couple that with BABIP luck and those Defensive Efficiency numbers were, for the most part, high enough to protect a guy or two from looking like crud every season. So the Twins get fooled into paying pitchers rather than trading them for guys who actually could produce consistently.

So what happened between last year and this one?

Right now Luis Castillo's Zone Rating is in the tank (.741) as is Juan Castro's (.811). Tony Batista was reportedly supposed to be able to field (reports often lie), but can't (.674 ZR). Stewart can still cover some ground, but his bat has slowed down a bunch. Hunter is what he is- which is good for a CF- but not 10 million bucks good.

Hmn...so you've got 3/4 of an Infield that's supposed to be able to field to support a 60% of a rotation that can't really strike anyone out. That's bad. Very bad. But it's the status quo for the Twinkies and their recent "plan" (mediocre fielding, mediocre pitching, bad offense) is one of the reasons I soured on Krivsky since his name first appeared as a candidate before the O'Brien hiring.

We've all had discussions as to wanting whatever plan to succeed- be it the Oakland, Atlanta, or Minnesota plan. Problem is that the first two teams on that list have consistently shown they're capable to rid themselves of a player for real value. The latter team has shown they can do so once (Pierzynski) while they continue to cling to players- both position players and pitchers- who should have been moved many moons ago to perpetuate a winning cycle.

Yes, that's a very long explanation, but it appears the reason Krivsky took a shot on Mays is that his familiarity caused him to think that Mays was a once good pitcher so maybe he could be good again. But he really wasn't and he won't be again. Krivsky should know this, but doesn't appear to. Doesn't matter to me that he signed Mays to a minor league deal. What does matter to me is that the Twins have long been slow to identify and react to mediocrity. To his credit, Krivsky reacted quickly to Tony Womack and that's good. I also have little doubt that the Mays acquisition was a reaction to Dave Williams stinker of a season thusfar.

But what I'm really waiting to see is how Krivsky reacts to players he's actually tied to. That'll give me a good indication as to whether Krivsky's smarter than the Minnesota plan of "suck badly, draft well, get old, think mediocre is good".

cincinnati chili
05-20-2006, 02:47 PM
Good points on the team defense, Steel.

Selfishly, I don't like this. My hacking mass pitching staff consists of Joe Mays and Kris Benson.