PDA

View Full Version : Seaver enjoyed stint with Reds



savafan
05-20-2006, 05:49 AM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060520/SPT04/605200333/1071

BY JOHN ERARDI | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

Long before Tom Seaver was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown in 1992, he was thinking how cool it was going to be up on the dais with Pete Rose, his teammate on the 1977 Reds.

"My last year (in baseball) was 1986, and Pete's last year was 1986, so that meant we were going to be going in together," Seaver said Friday. "Of course that thought crossed my mind. It would have been impossible for it to have not crossed my mind."

That thought no longer crossed Seaver's mind when Rose was banished from baseball in 1989 for his involvement in gambling.

Seventeen years later, Rose remains on the outside looking in when it comes to baseball and the Hall of Fame. Seaver, meanwhile, still has the highest percentage of votes (98.84 percent) in the 70-year history of the Hall of Fame.

"The only reason that nobody before received a bigger percentage of votes is only because there were some older writers who weren't going to vote for anybody on the first ballot, no matter who the player was," Seaver said. "I mean, Joe DiMaggio didn't make it on the first ballot. How much more do you need to know?"

Seaver's comments came on a day-long series of brief interviews to promote MasterCard's "Pay Pass," which allows "contact-less" payment.

Seaver agrees with the experts that Rose might have been the first unanimous electee in Hall history had he not gotten into trouble.

"It's difficult to imagine what might have been (had Rose not been banished)," Seaver said. "I'm like everybody else. I wish it (Rose's betting on baseball) had never happened."

Seaver was arguably the best pitcher in baseball when he was traded by the Mets to the Reds.

"That was a tremendous group (of starting eight) players that I joined in 1977," Seaver recalled. "What nobody realized at the time is that it was a team in transition."

Despite the fact that Seaver was 14-3 with the Reds in 1977 (he was acquired June 15 and three days later pitched a three-hit shutout in Montreal), the team - which was coming off consecutive world championships in 1975 and '76 - finished 10 games behind the Los Angeles Dodgers.

Seaver said he had great chemistry with catcher Johnny Bench.

"I remember one time he came out to the mound when I was getting hit early - single, double, single ... and all he said was, 'Are you even trying?' and then just turned around and walked away. I went out behind the mound with my back to home plate and just busted out laughing. John knew that all I needed to do was exhale. We won the game 4-2 and I got the win."

In only five seasons with the Reds, Seaver was 75-46 (.620 winning percentage, seventh-best in club history), was an All-Star in 1978 and 1981 and, on June 16, 1978 at Riverfront Stadium, pitched his only major-league no-hitter.

"I'll never forget - even though it was 25 years ago - that we had the best record in baseball (66-42, .611, in the strike-shortened season) in 1981, but they (Major League Baseball) aced us out of the playoffs by splitting the season into two halves," Seaver said. "They wanted the big-market teams to make it to the World Series (which is what happened, as the Dodgers beat the Yankees, 4 games to 2) and the hell with the 1981 Cincinnati Reds.

"Do I still sound upset?" asked Seaver, laughing.

Seaver, 61, who has his first batch of grapes from Napa Valley, Calif., "in the oak" that will be sold as wine next year, will be inducted into the Reds Hall of Fame this summer, with Tom Browning and Lee May. They were voted in by fans last year.

"It's an honor," Seaver said.

redsmetz
05-20-2006, 06:09 AM
I still pinch myself remembering that Tom Terrific pitched for the Reds and pitched for them in his prime. He should have won the Cy Young award the year he came here - he was 21-6 with a 2.58 ERA and 196 K's (compared to Steve Carlton's 23-10 2.64 ERA 198 K's).

Seaver actually finished tied for 3rd in the Cy Young voting, I think they should have done drug testing of the writers that year. Take a look at this info from that year:


Rk Name Team Place Points Points Share| W-L IP ERA WHIP SO

1 Steve Carlton PHI 17 104 120 0.87 | 23-10 283 2.64 1.12 198
2 Tommy John LAD 3 54 120 0.45 | 20-7 220 2.78 1.25 123
3 Rick Reuschel CHC 1 18 120 0.15 | 20-10 252 2.79 1.22 166
3 Tom Seaver TOT 2 18 120 0.15 |+21-6 261 2.58 1.01 196

I always felt Seaver should have also won in 1981 as a Red when he finished behind Fernando Valenzuela in the strike shortened 1981 season, although looking at their records, it's not as clear to me, particularly comparing K's (which isn't, of course, the whole story):


Rk Name Team Place Points Points Share| W-L IP ERA WHIP SO SV
+--+----------------+----+-----+------+------+-----+------+---+-----+-----+---+--+
1 Fernando Valenzue LAD 8 70 120 0.58 | 13-7 192 2.48 1.05 180
2 Tom Seaver CIN 8 67 120 0.56 | 14-2 166 2.54 1.12 87

RedsBaron
05-20-2006, 06:49 AM
Thanks for posting the article, Sava. If only Bowie Kuhn had not nullified the trade for Vide Blue, a Reds tandem of Seaver & Blue might have been able to have brought the 1978 NL West to the Reds.

redsfan4445
05-20-2006, 09:58 AM
I always wonder what would have happened if we hadnt traded Perez!!! i think with the addition of Seaver we would have won the division and who knows went on to win a 3rd World Series!!

westofyou
05-20-2006, 10:00 AM
I always wonder what would have happened if we hadnt traded Perez!!! i think with the addition of Seaver we would have won the division and who knows went on to win a 3rd World Series!!
The Reds pitching in 77 and 78 was the achilles heel, much more than the loss of Perez, whose numbers were replaced, but not his presence in the clubhouse. But if the BRM was so full of cagey vets with their eye on the prize, you'd think losing one guy would not have hurt so much, wouldn't you?

westofyou
05-20-2006, 10:02 AM
Thanks for posting the article, Sava. If only Bowie Kuhn had not nullified the trade for Vide Blue, a Reds tandem of Seaver & Blue might have been able to have brought the 1978 NL West to the Reds.
Howsam would not have pursued Seaver is my guess, the Seaver vs Young fiasco fed that trade as did the Reds poor start, if Blue was with the Reds and a good start had occured I doubt Howsam would have pulled the trigger on a Seaver trade.

redsfan4445
05-20-2006, 10:02 AM
Perez was a huge clutch hitter. thats why he had so many 90 RBI seasons... hence Driesen was nothing like that.. just Dick Wagners fav player!

westofyou
05-20-2006, 10:07 AM
Perez was a huge clutch hitter. thats why he had so many 90 RBI seasons... hence Driesen was nothing like that.. just Dick Wagners fav player!
Howsam traded Perez not Wagner, as I said the offense was not the problem and those RBI's didn't help the Reds pitching one bit, especially since Foster more than replaced Perez's production.

macro
05-20-2006, 10:17 AM
Please tell me Tom Seaver is not 61 years old.

Tony Cloninger
05-20-2006, 10:50 AM
WOY....the Reds pursued Blue after they traded for Seaver in the middle of 1977.

Since they did not go after any FA those first 2 years of it's existence...they decided to trade for a pitcher. Heck they had already traded Fryman for Bonham, which i thought was pretty good. Then they had the trade done in early 1978. Dave Revering and cash for Blue. But BK had put a cap on how cash could be used in a deal.

Instead of offering Moskau....Oester....and another 1 or 2 of the Reds minor leaugers... all they could do was trade Revering for Bair.

The Giants traded about 5 players to get Blue.

On a side note.....Finley might have been cheap but he knew ballplayers.
The year before he traded Chuck Tanner (maybe a player also, i do not remember off the top of my head) and received ML... P Rick Langford...OF Tony Armas...P Doug Bair.

westofyou
05-20-2006, 11:03 AM
WOY....the Reds pursued Blue after they traded for Seaver in the middle of 1977. That was after the trade, I was thinking it was the winter before.

Fryman was a wild card, coming off a down year in strikeouts he always had a baserunner problem and his walk rate withthe Reds was incredible (5.38 per 9)

Something about him and the Reds has never been fully flushed out IMO.

Phhhl
05-20-2006, 11:36 AM
Seaver comes across as one of the classiest great, great players in the history of this game. I am assuming he is coming for the Hall of Fame induction? I'll try to make that game.

Tony Cloninger
05-20-2006, 11:43 AM
Considering that Fryman pitched very well for another 2-3 years with CHI and then MTL again...... i figure it must have been Marty's fault.

westofyou
05-20-2006, 11:46 AM
Considering that Fryman pitched very well for another 2-3 years with CHI and then MTL again...... i figure it must have been Marty's fault.
Or it was too close to home for him.

Fryman was a stud in the 1972 Tigers AL east run, too bad he couldn't harness it in Cincinnati.

GAC
05-20-2006, 11:52 AM
If only Bowie Kuhn had not nullified the trade for Vide Blue, a Reds tandem of Seaver & Blue might have been able to have brought the 1978 NL West to the Reds.

When that happened, IMO, it was more about the stormy relationship between Finley and Kuhn, and Kuhn trying to stick it to Finley who was selling off. The Reds just got stuck in the middle.

But it pee'd me off when it occurred.

Finley had attempted to sell Blue to the Yankees in mid-season, for $1.5 million. Kuhn vetoed that deal. While most of the other Oakland stars departed through free agency, Finley tried to send Blue to the Reds for $1.75 million plus Dave Revering. Kuhn vetoed that, too. After suffering through a 14-19 season in 1977, Blue was finally traded to the Giants for eight players and $390,000. He gave the Giants an 18-10 season.

ochre
05-20-2006, 12:07 PM
They should have asked him if he had seen Gruler's curveball... :)

RedsBaron
05-20-2006, 01:40 PM
WOY....the Reds pursued Blue after they traded for Seaver in the middle of 1977.

Since they did not go after any FA those first 2 years of it's existence...they decided to trade for a pitcher. Heck they had already traded Fryman for Bonham, which i thought was pretty good. Then they had the trade done in early 1978. Dave Revering and cash for Blue. But BK had put a cap on how cash could be used in a deal.

Instead of offering Moskau....Oester....and another 1 or 2 of the Reds minor leaugers... all they could do was trade Revering for Bair.

The Giants traded about 5 players to get Blue.

On a side note.....Finley might have been cheap but he knew ballplayers.
The year before he traded Chuck Tanner (maybe a player also, i do not remember off the top of my head) and received ML... P Rick Langford...OF Tony Armas...P Doug Bair.
Yes. The Reds acquired Seaver on June 15, 1977. At the time, although the Reds were well behind LA, a lot of people, including probably me, thought the addition of Seaver would be enough for the Reds to still win the division. Had the rest of the pitching staff performed in 1977 as it had in 1976, the Reds may very well have caught LA, as Seaver did pitch great, but, other than maybe Fred Norman, the rest of the Reds starting pitchers were terrible. Don Gullett had left after 1976 as a free agent, and Jack Billingham had a 5.22 ERA in 1977. Gary Nolan had won 15 games in both 1975 and 1976, but was traded away for minor leaguers on the same day Seaver was acquired, and he never won another game after the trade in his career. Woodie Fryman, acquired for Tony Perez, pitched like a DanO acquisition, with a 5.40 ERA, before deserting the team, to his eternal infamy.
The 1977 bullpen was also worse than the '76 version. Will McEnaney had been traded away in the Perez for Fryman deal; his replacement in the 'pen, acquired along with Fryman, Dale Murray, stank, racking up a 4.94 ERA. Rawly Eastwick, instead of leading the NL in saves as he did in 1976, pitched poorly and was traded away on June 15, 1977 for Doug Capilla, who also pitched poorly. Pedro Borbon was the only decent relief pitcher the Reds had in 1977.
In short, while the loss of Perez hurt, the primary reason the Reds didn't "threepeat" in 1977 was pitching. In 1976 the Reds ranked 5th in a 12 team NL with a 3.51 ERA, easily good enough to win with an all conquering offense that scored 857 runs. The 1977 offense was still potent, scoring 802, 2nd in the NL, but the team ERA of 4.22 ranked 10th in the league.
Two occurrences kept the 1978 Reds from winning. One was the nullification of the trade for Vida Blue after the 1977 season. As Tony C noted, the Reds should have put together a package of players, rather than primarily cash, so as to get Kuhn to approve the trade. Blue went 18-10 with a 2.79 ERA in 1978; that contribution alone might have been enough to put the Reds ahead of LA, instead of 2.5 games behind at season's end in 1978. The second occurrence was a terrible trade the Reds made on June 15, 1977, the same day they acquired Seaver. The Reds gave Mike Caldwell away. The next season, Caldwell went 22-9 with a 2.36 ERA for the Brewers. Put Blue AND Caldwell on the 1978 Reds, along with Seaver, and the Reds probably would have been in a rematch with the Yankees in the '78 World Series.

Cyclone792
05-20-2006, 01:47 PM
Here's Seaver's exact Reds-only stat breakdown


TOM SEAVER

CINCINNATI REDS

YEAR TEAM AGE W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO ERA RSAA
1977 Reds 32 14 3 .824 20 20 14 0 0 165.1 120 45 43 38 124 2.34 29
1978 Reds 33 16 14 .533 36 36 8 0 0 259.2 218 97 83 89 226 2.88 24
1979 Reds 34 16 6 .727 32 32 9 0 0 215 187 85 75 61 131 3.14 11
1980 Reds 35 10 8 .556 26 26 5 0 0 168 140 74 68 59 101 3.64 1
1981 Reds 36 14 2 .875 23 23 6 0 0 166.1 120 51 47 66 87 2.54 18
1982 Reds 37 5 13 .278 21 21 0 0 0 111.1 136 75 68 44 62 5.50 -22
TOTALS 75 46 .620 158 158 42 0 0 1085.2 921 427 384 357 731 3.18 61
LG AVERAGE 60 60 .500 27 0 1085.2 1058 495 441 385 620 3.66 0

YEAR TEAM HR H/9 BR/9 SO/9 BB/9 SO/BB SHO WP IBB HBP BFP BK NW NL
1977 Reds 12 6.53 8.60 6.75 2.07 3.26 4 4 3 0 641 0 12 5
1978 Reds 26 7.56 10.64 7.83 3.08 2.54 1 6 11 0 1075 1 18 12
1979 Reds 16 7.83 10.38 5.48 2.55 2.15 5 4 6 0 868 0 12 10
1980 Reds 24 7.50 10.71 5.41 3.16 1.71 1 4 3 1 692 0 9 9
1981 Reds 10 6.49 10.23 4.71 3.57 1.32 1 5 8 3 671 0 10 6
1982 Reds 14 10.99 14.79 5.01 3.56 1.41 0 3 4 3 501 0 6 12
TOTALS 102 7.63 10.65 6.06 2.96 2.05 12 26 35 7 4448 1 67 54
LG AVERAGE 83 8.77 12.12 5.14 3.19 1.61 6 31 50 19 4601 10

Tony Cloninger
05-20-2006, 01:58 PM
Yes...that Caldwell deal stunk too.

He was an off season Jim Bowden like pitching signing..... Caldwell was coming off some arm problems after having a good year in 1974 with the Giants. He cost nothing...and was going to be used only as a LH bullpen guy.
Howsman purged the whole Reds pitching staff on 6/15/77.
Specifically of Jerry Kapstein clients.

Also of note...is that Billingham also goes to the Al with DET and proceeds to go 15-8 with 3.58 ERA. Who is to blame? PC Larry Shepard....who was being picked on in the papers and by the fans (w/o Redszone to pile on) just as Gullett was here for several years. Or was it just the fact that AL hitters knew nothing of these 2 guys....and Caldwell was rumored to have developed a very good spitball.

I just remember that after 1978 season was over... at all of 11 years old and getting my weekly fix of the Sporting News since 1976... that i found it weird that other teams could develop pitchers while the Reds could barely get guys to give them more than 6-7 innings. You have to remember that pitchers were supposed to give you at least 10+ CG a year.
I recall many times in 1978....even w/o Blue...Caldwell...and even with Seaver having the first 2 months of the season be his worst in his career...that they still managed to stay in 1st until the middle of August..but seeing Tomlin....Borbon...and Sarmiento always coming in to pitch 2+ innings every time. Their ERA's were all in the 5.00 area. The hitting also stunk from June on. You might consider it Sparky's best job of managing considering they barely scored more runs then they allowed.....and the defense was the worse in many years.

westofyou
05-20-2006, 02:02 PM
The hitting also stunk from June on.


Good point, the Aug and Sep Line was this (over 1500 ab's)

.232 .314 .377

.251 .334 .376

Tony Cloninger
05-20-2006, 02:10 PM
Dob Werner for Bench
Junior Kennedy for Joe Morgan
Ken Henderson for Cesar Geronimo (but CG was already going down the tubes as a hitter....but Henderson was even worse)

No bench besides Mike Lum.
Driessen hitting in the .220-230's from June on.

You just could not belive that they could not hit.
Getting beat by likes of Eric Rassmussen....Dennis Lamp..Mark Lemengello.
Not just beat...but shutdown completely.

LINEDRIVER
05-21-2006, 12:08 AM
31 Years Ago ?????

Time is really flying. I was at this game and sitting in the blue seats behind home plate. It surely doesn't seem like 31 yrs ago.

MAY 21, 1975…Going into today’s game with a 20-20 won-loss record, the Big Red Machine Cincinnati Reds overpower Mets' ace pitcher Tom Seaver with an 11-4 win in Cincinnati. The victory will be the start of an incredible 41-9 record over a 50 game stretch.

I remember driving to Myrtle Beach while listening to Seaver's debut as a Reds' pitcher in 1977. His 3-hit gem over the Expos was very exciting for Reds' fans.

WVRedsFan
05-21-2006, 01:05 AM
They had Seaver on XM Radio's Rob and Kevin show yesterday. It was a delightful interview in which Seaver mentioned the year the Reds had the best record in the NL only to not go to the playoffs or the WS.

Seaver is a delightful interview. He mentioned his new wine venture and the day that the NY Mets traded Nolan Ryan. The Reds are much richer for having Tom Seaver for a few years in the 70's. Oh to have a Tom Seaver today.

George Foster
05-22-2006, 12:01 AM
You guys are amazing....quoting stats and trades that happened 29 years ago. The old guard is a proper name. I thought I was pretty knowlegable, you guys absolutely dust me. my hats off to ya!:thumbup:

Joseph
05-22-2006, 09:53 AM
Of course he enjoyed Cincinnati after NYC. :)

I became a fan in the mid to late 80's. I started out knowing Seaver was great listening to my dad talk about him, but I thought he was a White Sox player. It wasn't until years later that I started to get into the history of the Reds and learned he was a great Reds pitcher as well.

Heath
05-22-2006, 10:24 AM
Dob Werner for Bench
Junior Kennedy for Joe Morgan
Ken Henderson for Cesar Geronimo (but CG was already going down the tubes as a hitter....but Henderson was even worse)

No bench besides Mike Lum.
Driessen hitting in the .220-230's from June on.

You just could not belive that they could not hit.
Getting beat by likes of Eric Rassmussen....Dennis Lamp..Mark Lemengello.
Not just beat...but shutdown completely.


The funny part is they were still winning. Not BRM winning, but by even today's standard, they were winning 88-92 games in 77-78. On top of the that, they did win a pennant in '79 AFTER Rose left and Griffey got hurt in the middle of '79. Foster was the offense. They had Driessen at 1b who never got the hang of playing every day. Bench & Griffey were not getting younger. Junior Kennedy got beaten out in '80 by Ron Oester. Remember Hector Cruz coming over from the Giants and Paul Blair from the Orioles? And they STILL won a West Pennant in '79. (Thank you Ray Knight career year).

The pitching was a patchwork quilt of old & new and castoffs. Seaver was definately an ace. Norman was still around. Doug Bair & Bill Bonham & Mike LaCoss were acquired. Mario Soto & Paul Moskau were called up.

After the '82 debacle, Seaver had a couple of more good years in Boston & Chicago, IIRC.

I wish he'd do more TV work. I'd take'em in Cincinnati.