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View Full Version : Ok, Weathers VS Coffey



acredsfan
05-20-2006, 11:33 PM
OK, I have to say good job on the Williams move. The thing that keeps bugging me is the insistence on keeping Weathers as the closer. Narron says Todd Coffey is the best fit for the set up role and getting the team out of tight situations, but the question is, does that matter when you don't have someone to shut the opposing team down in a tight game in the 9th? Weathers has been a set up man for the bulk of his career for a reason, he doesn't have the standard closer make-up. Todd Coffey seems to have that. The question is how much longer are they going to keep Weathers in the closers role. Weathers isn't a terrible pitcher, but the fact is, when you blow it in the ninth, you don't usually get another chance to mount a comeback on offense. What better entrance for a closer could you have than the one Todd Coffey makes. Maybe I'm just venting after tonights loss, but how much confidence do you have in Weathers moving forward? I have to say, I don't have much, I can't imagine that Narron would have that much confidence left either. I know he's a veteran and so on, but that only carries so much weight no matter who you are, if a player doesn't perform, you find one who does. Its not like we don't have other people who could turn into very effective closers.

edabbs44
05-20-2006, 11:38 PM
Coffey in a rout.

KronoRed
05-20-2006, 11:42 PM
Sure glad we had Coffey throw last night ;)

edabbs44
05-20-2006, 11:48 PM
Sure glad we had Coffey throw last night ;)
Agree 100%. Though in a 9-4 game, it is still up in the air w/Burns and the gang.

BigRed
05-20-2006, 11:49 PM
Not a huge Narron fan lately. Move should have been made for Coffey to close weeks ago. When the discussion about Coffey being closer was made during the spring, I said that he was not proven. I think that he has more than proven it now.

Brandon4MVP
05-20-2006, 11:49 PM
With out a doubt Coffey, Heck I wouldnt mind seeing him pitch every night. He is 10 times better than Weathers.

reds44
05-20-2006, 11:52 PM
Williams

flyer85
05-20-2006, 11:56 PM
Weather is a 2 pitch(fastball, slider) pitcher with marginal stuff. He really struggles with lefties because he doesn't really have a pitch to get them out. Coffey has 3 pitches(fastball, slider, change) and far supeior stiff to Weathers.

The problem is a Weathers type pitcher should pitch at the front of the pen not the back, unfortunately the other Reds relievers are even worse.

acredsfan
05-21-2006, 12:16 AM
Weather is a 2 pitch(fastball, slider) pitcher with marginal stuff. He really struggles with lefties because he doesn't really have a pitch to get them out. Coffey has 3 pitches(fastball, slider, change) and far supeior stiff to Weathers.

The problem is a Weathers type pitcher should pitch at the front of the pen not the back, unfortunately the other Reds relievers are even worse.
Yeah, that is very true, the relievers are even worse, but that to me makes it even more important that you have the pitcher who has the ability to shut down the opposing team close the game. He hasn't just shut down mediocre hitters, he's made even the best hitters look silly with his stuff. It is beyond me why Narron seems to think the 7th and 8th innings are the most important. Heck, they have Belisle out there too. Use Weathers in the front end, set up with Belisle and close it with Coffey. That seems to be the best formula to me. To me, Hammond is a serviceable lefty out of the pen, although he's started slow, his change up is one of the best in the business. So to me, there are 4 solid arms, and when Mercker comes back, that makes 5. I know Hammond is questionable, but hey, he's not nearly as bad as Burns and White.

TeamBoone
05-21-2006, 12:49 AM
Weathers isn't awful; Coffey is just a lot better. Weathers doesn't have the stuff to be a bonefied closer; Coffey does.

With a one-run lead, it should ALWAYS be Coffey... no doubt in my mind.

I know Lopez made the error that cost the game, but the run that tied it up (with 2 outs no less) should never have scored in the first place.

I know that I just stated on another thread that no one can be perfect every day, and I stand by that. But Coffey is the better pitcher, especially in that tight situation and he's the one that should have been called on, regardless of whether or not he pitched last night (what? 2 innings?). With the lead the Reds had last night, he shouldn't even have been called upon, but that's a whole other conversation.

When the game is on the line, you bring the guy that gives you the best chance of putting it away. This loss was a tough one, and IMHO, this one is JN's fault for making a poor decision.

MrCinatit
05-21-2006, 01:44 AM
hopefully, this is the game which helps Narron realize Weathers is a good relief pitcher, but not a good closer.
Coffey all the way.

Reds1
05-21-2006, 01:48 AM
hopefully, this is the game which helps Narron realize Weathers is a good relief pitcher, but not a good closer.
Coffey all the way.


Amen to that. Not that Weathers is stinking up the joint, but I"d feel a lot better with Coffey.

2001MUgrad
05-21-2006, 03:11 AM
The first month of the year the Reds basically lost 1 game they should have won, against the Cards. They have lost what 2 games now in the past week they should have won? The key to this is the BP. If they don't get this sured up quickly, blown games are going to become the norm. I don't see how they thought the signings they made to the pitching staff in the offseason would make the BP good. It has been anything but.. So far this year anytime they take the starter out you start to worry because you never know what you will get.

jimbo
05-21-2006, 04:02 AM
Weathers isn't awful; Coffey is just a lot better.
With a one-run lead, it should ALWAYS be Coffey... no doubt in my mind.


That statement says it all. I've been generally a Narron supporter and backer but it is time for Coffey to take over the closer role. With a one run lead in the ninth inning, you need your best guy on the mound to finish the game and last night that wasn't the case.

Phhhl
05-21-2006, 04:04 AM
Not only is Weathers inadequate as closer, the club needs to find 2-3 guys to set up Coffey. There is literally nowhere to turn except for these two guys. Like worn down tires, they are going to blow out if we keep pushing the gas pedal. Weather may have already blown. This is a more pressing need than the rotation. Ryan Wagner sure has been a disappointment. He should have been one of the answers.

RAS
05-21-2006, 05:11 AM
The fact that Weathers has already blown 4 saves should be enough to tell Narron he ain't the guy for the job. Coffey has dominating stuff and can get the big K when it's needed in a tight ballgame. I feel Narron screwed up last night in bringing Coffey into a game witha 5 run lead. If he has no faith in any of those guys to be able to throw an inning or 2 with a 5 run lead than we might as well quit now. I hope this game brings about the change we're all lokking for.

oneupper
05-21-2006, 08:22 AM
In defense of Weathers, here's his 4 blown saves and two losses:

April 16 vs. Stl

Comes in to pitch the ninth up 7-6, after Todd Coffey escapes a three hit eighth (left bases loaded). Jason Maquis leads off with a single to center (granted...bad). Pujols hits a homer (his third of the day...NO one was getting him out). BS and L for Weathers.


May 10 vs. Wash. Score 6-5 Cin.
Weathers comes in in the 8th with 2 out and man on second. LeCroy recieves him with a single, game tied. He gets the last out of the inning. Reds get three in the ninth and Stormy gets the win after putting up a zero in the 9th.

May 11 vs WAS.
Game 1-0 REDS. Weathers in to pitch the ninth. Leadoff guy singles, steals second goes to third on a grounder and scores on a short sac fly when the catcher (Ross) fails to hold on to the ball (runner was toast).
Reds win it in the 11th on Jrs walkoff 3-run blast.

May 20

Comes in to pitch the ninth up 6-5. After two quick outs, Granderson slices an pitch low and away (good pitch) to the opposite field. Ball barely makes it over the fence and is barely fair. Game tied.
Then the game is lost in the 10th after a HBP, a stolen base that shouldn't have been, an intentional BB, a blown DP and a throwing error.

TeamBoone
05-21-2006, 11:42 AM
Not only is Weathers inadequate as closer, the club needs to find 2-3 guys to set up Coffey. There is literally nowhere to turn except for these two guys. Like worn down tires, they are going to blow out if we keep pushing the gas pedal.

Maybe there's hope yet:


Sunday, May 21, 2006

LOOKING FOR RELIEF: The Reds took a five-run lead into the eighth inning Friday night against the Detroit Tigers.

That didn't keep Narron from using Todd Coffey, his top setup man, to pitch the eighth.

That says fairly plainly that Narron doesn't trust his middle men.

Given that four of eight pitchers in the bullpen went into Saturday with an ERA over 6.75, you have to ask: Don't the Reds have anyone to turn to in the minors?

"We've got some guys," general manager Wayne Krivsky said. "But I'm not going to name names. I'm afraid I'll leave someone out."

The Reds don't have any relievers throwing well at Triple-A. (Ryan Wagner, the most likely suspect, is 0-2 with a 7.58 ERA.)

Director of player development Johnny Almaraz mentioned two possibilities at Double-A: left-handers Phil Dumatrait and John Coutlangus. Dumatrait, 23, is 3-2 with a 3.09 ERA as a starter. He throws 93-98 mph with a good curveball. Coutlangus, 26, throws in the 88-91 range. But his cut fastball makes him effective against lefties and righties. He's 1-1 with a 2.05 ERA.

Krivsky was in Chattanooga this weekend.

He realizes that the end of the 'pen cannot be Coffey and David Weathers forever.

"If we don't have someone in the system, we'll go out and find somebody," Krivsky said.

E-mail jfay@enquirer.com
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060521/COL09/605210316/1071/SPT04

edabbs44
05-21-2006, 11:48 AM
OK Wayne, you are officially on the clock.

RedLegSuperStar
05-21-2006, 12:01 PM
Coffey over any rainy "Stormy" day

Matt700wlw
05-21-2006, 12:06 PM
OK Wayne, you are officially on the clock.


He knows.

geniusMoment
05-21-2006, 01:04 PM
Last nights game was unfortunate, and Coffee is the choice, but he needed a day off after pitching so much. If they continue pitching him like this his arm will fall off by August. As for Weathers, well, the little guy went opposite field on him on not that bad of a pitch, it happens.

TeamBoone
05-21-2006, 01:49 PM
Last nights game was unfortunate, and Coffee is the choice, but he needed a day off after pitching so much. If they continue pitching him like this his arm will fall off by August. As for Weathers, well, the little guy went opposite field on him on not that bad of a pitch, it happens.

I don't think 1 or 2 innings five times a week is too much.

And some of those innings are as short as 12ish pitches.

In addition, if he were to become the true closer, he could be called upon to pitch 7 times in a week... if the Reds are lucky enough to be in a save situation that many times in one week.

TOBTTReds
05-21-2006, 02:01 PM
I don't think 1 or 2 innings five times a week is too much.

And some of those innings are as short as 12ish pitches.

In addition, if he were to become the true closer, he could be called upon to pitch 7 times in a week... if the Reds are lucky enough to be in a save situation that many times in one week.

1 or 2 innings a game 5 times a week can be upward to 200 innings in a season. Obviously I know you didn't mean it's OK for him to throw 200 inn, but we can't be pitching him 2 innings one day, then expect him to pitch the day after AND the day after that.

I'm all for Coffey as a better pitcher, but we need to get to the 9th with a lead still too. You put Weathers in there in the 8th inning with a one run lead, and he gives up a solo HR, it is STILL a tie game! I personally think the closer "role" is overrated and you pitch your best pitcher when you need him most in the last couple innings. That being said, I NEVER thought Coffey was need in a 9-4 (or 9-5 lead) on Friday. He should have not pitched so he could be made available for a closer game, like Saturday. Narron's fault big time. I would have had Coffey in to close it out though, but not give him permanent closer duties.

Who would you rather have pitching in these situations?

Up by 1 run
8th inning due up:
Pujols
Rolens
Edmonds...if they get on base, Encarnacion....

Then in the 9th,
John Rodriguez
So Tuguchi
Yadier Molina

Do you want Weathers pitching the 8th inning???? Then Coffey clo....wait, he wouldn't be able to close, bc we would be losing by that point. I vote no closer defined. Doing that costs you games.

TeamBoone
05-21-2006, 02:07 PM
The last time he pitched two innings was May 2 (and 1.1 innings on 5/7 and 1.2 on May 10th). That's it for more than one inning in May.

He only pitched one inning Friday night (and one inning each on Wednesday and Thursday). Prior to last Wednesday, he had not pitched at all in three days. This certainly is not over use; there's no reason he should NOT have been available last night to pitch the ninth.

M2
05-21-2006, 02:42 PM
Good point AvesIce. I was thinking the same thing. I like Narron using him in a flexible fashion instead of trotting him out to the mound only when the team has a lead in the 9th. Among other things, using him strictly as a closer will cost him 15-20 IP of work. I don't think the Reds can afford that.

Spitball
05-21-2006, 03:38 PM
I agree. This bullpen is not deep enough to waste Coffey in simply ninth inning save situations. I don't want Weathers facing the middle of an order with runners on base in the seventh inning while Coffey is saved for the ninth when the bottom of the order might be batting.

This topic has been discussed on the other forum:http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46096

edabbs44
05-21-2006, 04:44 PM
I agree. This bullpen is not deep enough to waste Coffey in simply ninth inning save situations. I don't want Weathers facing the middle of an order with runners on base in the seventh inning while Coffey is saved for the ninth when the bottom of the order might be batting.

This topic has been discussed on the other forum:http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46096
Very legitimate arguments here. But the root of the problem exists when you only have faith in one reliver in the whole BP. Isn't that embarrassing? Now many BPs have one shut down guy like Coffey, but we have one guy (TC) who we think has a good shot at posting a zero on the board. That's it. This team cannot and will not be taken seriously until some of these pitchers are out looking for work.

TeamBoone
05-22-2006, 01:13 PM
Monday, May 22, 2006

Narron explains not using Coffey
BY JOHN FAY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

DETROIT - Reds manager Jerry Narron knows that Todd Coffey versus David Weathers for closer is the hot-button topic among fans.

Narron did not issue an unsolicited defense of his decision to use Weathers over Coffey Saturday. Weathers blew the save and took the loss as the Reds fell to Detroit 7-6 in 10 innings.

But he did explain his decision in response to questions.

"We were doing everything we could to not use Todd Coffey," Narron said. "We were fortunate that Chris Hammond got through the seventh."

The Reds had Coffey warm up the night before during a Tigers rally in the seventh. He ended up pitching the eighth of a 9-4 win.

"When we got Todd Coffey (warmed up) the night before, he was really done for (Saturday night)," Narron said.

Still, had the Reds gotten through the 10th, Coffey might have pitched.

"If we would have scored in the 11th, he might have pitched the bottom of the 11th," Narron said. "I don't know. I might have made a call to the bullpen myself."

Coffey pitched five of the seven days before Saturday.

Narron had no quarrel with the way Weathers pitched.

"David Weathers pitched better than everyone gives him credit for," Narron said. "If you're going to let them tie it up on a home run, you want it to be to the opposite field, make him earn it."

Curtis Granderson's game-tying homer in the ninth went over the 345-mark in the left-field corner.

The defense let down in the 10th.

Weathers hit Carlos Guillen with one out. Javier Valentin's throw easily beat Guillen to second on a steal attempt but second baseman Brandon Phillips dropped the ball as Guillen slid in.

Weathers walked Chris Shelton. Dmitri Young then hit a 4-6-3 double-play ball, but Phillips slipped fielding it. The Reds got only the force at second. The winning run scored on shortstop Felipe Lopez's throwing error to first.

"We had a chance for a caught stealing, we had a chance for a double play, and we had a chance to get out of the inning," Narron said.

But if Weathers gets the call to close on the homestand that starts tonight, it won't stop fans from revisiting the closer debate.


http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060522/SPT04/605220353/1071

Heath
05-22-2006, 03:54 PM
Just in from Hal McCoy's Q&A -"exclusive"-forum only sent to subscribers of "Ask Hal" -


Q: This team can't survive without a legitimate closer. Do you see the team making a trade for a closer? — Mickey, Dayton

A: David Weathers is 9-for-12 in save opportunities, better than alleged "name" closers like Brad Lidge and Derrick Turnbow. And the Reds are 15-4 in games in which he has pitched. So who should the Reds get? Do you think any team with a good closer is willing to trade him a fourth of the way through the season? No way. The only possible change I see is that eventually Todd Coffey and Weathers switch roles. Actually, Weathers prefers the set-up role and is doing the closing because that's what the team wants.

FWIW

acredsfan
05-22-2006, 05:05 PM
Almost seems like Hal is defensive. Ok, so lets take a look at the two closers Hal is mentioning:

Wagner: he has blown 3 saves in 12 opportunities according to ESPN, which is now better than Weather's 9-13 SV-SVO. Second, he has a record of 3-0 compared to Weather's 1-2. So to me, that is a very flawed arguement.

Turnbow: Wait a minute, he has only one blown save, wow, what is Hal's arguement there? He has 14 saves, so i don't know what Hal is reading, but he needs to do a little research there.

So lets see, the Mets have a better record than the Reds, and Wagner is 3-0 with 9 saves in 12 opportunities. In my estimation, that makes him Better than Weathers. And i'm not even going to humor the whole Turnbow statement.

Spitball
05-22-2006, 10:01 PM
Very legitimate arguments here. But the root of the problem exists when you only have faith in one reliver in the whole BP. Isn't that embarrassing? Now many BPs have one shut down guy like Coffey, but we have one guy (TC) who we think has a good shot at posting a zero on the board. That's it. This team cannot and will not be taken seriously until some of these pitchers are out looking for work.

When I saw the money the Yankees and Cubs were throwing at middle relievers this winter, I was worried what effect it would have on small market teams. Middle relievers used to be affordable, but that is starting to change.

flyer85
05-23-2006, 03:32 PM
from BP


David Weathers, Closer, Reds. Reds manager Jerry Narron will go kicking and screaming on this one. He'd really prefer to continue to have Weathers close, but Weathers is making it awfully difficult for him to stay the course, having blown his last three save chances. The one thing that might keep Weathers closing and Todd Coffey in a set-up capacity is the Reds' utter lack of viable alternatives to get the game from the seventh inning to the ninth inning. Coffey is third among all relievers by BP's Reliever Expected Runs rankings, but there is no other Red in the top 100. Kent Mercker at least has a positive ranking, but is on the DL right now. They had hoped to get decent mileage from the likes of Rick White and Chris Hammond, but the only things that these "proven veterans" have proven is that they're mediocre relievers at best. Help is not on the way, either: Ryan Wagner has a 7.08 ERA at Triple-A Louisville. The Reds have already begun to slide back in the standings, and their bullpen situation is only going to accelerate that fall.

BRM
05-23-2006, 03:45 PM
Not a very rosy forecast from BP.

flyer85
05-23-2006, 03:55 PM
Not a very rosy forecast from BP.I have been flaming the pen since the beginning of the season. Narron's hands are really tied on this one.

BRM
05-23-2006, 04:02 PM
I have been flaming the pen since the beginning of the season. Narron's hands are really tied on this one.

I thought we were told the pen was going to be much improved? :devil:

flyer85
05-23-2006, 04:15 PM
I thought we were told the pen was going to be much improved? :devil:at least by to the broadcasting savant in the Reds Radio booth.

TeamBoone
05-23-2006, 07:42 PM
The Reds have already begun to slide back in the standings, and their bullpen situation is only going to accelerate that fall.

Yes, the Reds fell in the standings a bit... to be honest, several of those games were either very low scoring games or 1-run loses. I don't blame all those loses on the bullpen.... I don't even blame most of those losses on the bullpen, though the three blown saves don't help the BP cause.

TeamBoone
05-26-2006, 02:51 PM
05-26-2006

Turn up the heat
Whatever the role, Coffey loves pressure
By Josh Katzowitz / Post staff reporter

Todd Coffey's calling card is efficiency, which makes him a valuable member of the Reds' bullpen however he's used. At the moment, he's generally used as the setup man for closer David Weathers.
In 2004, Reds reliever Todd Coffey was the closer for Class AA Chattanooga. Enjoyed it. Did it pretty well. Recorded 20 saves with a 4-1 record and 2.38 ERA.

Coffey also seems to be the closer of the future in Cincinnati. His 0.65 ERA this season leads National League relievers who have pitched at least 15 innings, and every time he wills his 6-foot-5, 230-pound body to sprint in from the bullpen to the mound he seems to be automatic.

But the thought of closing out games, though he was successful in the minors, doesn't consume his days. Heck, the Forest City, N.C., native is just happy to be here.

Sure, this is his second season in the major leagues, and maybe you'd think that the honeymoon feeling would have worn off by now. But you'd be wrong.

"As far as closing for me, it's whatever, whenever," Coffey said Wednesday while signing autographs along the right field line. "Whatever I can do to help this team win, I don't care. If it's being a batboy and it helps us win a game, I don't care. If (becoming the closer) happens, it happens. All I can do is pitch when they ask me to pitch. If that's the situation that I fall into, it's the situation I fall into."

For now, the 36-year-old David Weathers (1-2, 13 saves, 3.52 ERA) will remain Cincinnati's closer. Which is fine by Coffey.

But Coffey enjoys pressure. And the closer role contains all kinds of pressure.

"It's a different amount of pressure, absolutely," Coffey said. "But if you're a ballplayer, you want to be in that tough situation. As a kid, you didn't grow up thinking, 'Man, I want to be in a game with a seven-run lead in the World Series.' You're thinking, 'Man, I want to be in a game with it on the line.' That's what's good about it."

According to Reds manager Jerry Narron, Coffey's control also makes him a good candidate for the job.

Here's Narron's checklist for an effective closer: "Guys who can get strikeouts, guys who can get ground balls, guys who don't walk people and don't hurt themselves, and guys who keep the ball in the ballpark. So far, he's doing all of those things."

Strikeouts? Coffey has 23, first among Reds relievers and fourth overall. Check.

Few walks? Coffey has allowed eight walks, only one about every 3.5 innings. A partial check. (He had 11 walks in 58 innings last year.)

Keeping the ball inside the ballpark? Coffey hasn't allowed a single home run, the only Reds pitcher on the team to accomplish that. Check.

"To me, it's a guy who can throw strikes," pitching coach Tom Hume said. "You have to be in control of the situation that you're in. You have to be aggressive. Being aggressive, you can't let up one time. There are so many times when you get two quick outs and seems like everything breaks open with two outs. I've seen it so many times this year."

Instead, Coffey tries to get out of the inning as soon as possible. On Tuesday, while working the final two innings of the 7-3 Reds victory over Milwaukee, Coffey threw 17 pitches, 13 of them strikes.

Pretty efficient, huh? Coffey, though, has been efficient all season. He wasn't bad last year, going 4-1 with a 4.50 ERA and a save. But this year, he's been outstanding. The difference?

"No clue," Coffey said. "My mentality is, when I get up there, I'm going to make them put it in play. There's no chance that I can get an out if I give the guy a free pass to first base. If a guy can hit a missile, someone can make a diving catch or something."

Lately, Coffey has been making it all look so easy, almost automatic.

"It's not easy," Narron said. "There's no such thing as automatic. But he has been pitching really well."
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060526/SPT05/605260321/1027