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View Full Version : Dan O Brien => The gift that keeps on giving



GOREDSGO32
05-20-2006, 11:17 PM
Dave Williams - traded for with a former Al Star 1B, and Cincy hero .. result = DFA

Tony Womack - traded for ... result - DFA

Eric Milton 3 year almost 30 mil contract - one of the worst complete years in NL history - on pace for that at least this year

Thank you O Brien, you are the worst GM in baseball history. Rot in baseball hell.

dougdirt
05-20-2006, 11:21 PM
I still like the Williams for Casey deal. Saved the Reds lots of money and a double play, rally killing machine.

Word I have heard says Obrien didnt want to sign Milton, but that Carl told him he didnt have a choice but to sign him.

Womack....yeah bad move.

TeamBoone
05-20-2006, 11:51 PM
Word I have heard says Obrien didnt want to sign Milton, but that Carl told him he didnt have a choice but to sign him.

If true, this was never publicized. Source?

dougdirt
05-21-2006, 12:03 AM
A guy I know had a conversation with Obrien last year. I wasnt there, so I cant say for sure that is what he said, but I trust the guy enough that he would make up something like that. There really wouldnt be a point in it. Take it for what its worth.

redsmetz
05-21-2006, 09:48 AM
I still like the Williams for Casey deal. Saved the Reds lots of money and a double play, rally killing machine.

Word I have heard says Obrien didnt want to sign Milton, but that Carl told him he didnt have a choice but to sign him.

Womack....yeah bad move.

I never liked the Casey for Williams deal. We got nowhere near enough for Casey (and I understand others believe Casey had lost value), but at the very least, we should have gotten some prospects along with it. Even with Casey's injury this year, I have to think the Pirates are dancing in the streets over the trade (if there is any dancing in the streets).

I like the subject title. I'm wishing the Reds could sue Dan for malfeascance (sp?)! ;)

RedLegSuperStar
05-21-2006, 10:24 AM
Lets just hope the Mets want to deal for Williams and offer us some scrappy middle infielder or back-up catcher

Matt700wlw
05-21-2006, 10:27 AM
Word I have heard says Obrien didnt want to sign Milton, but that Carl told him he didnt have a choice but to sign him.



That's a new one.

RedFanAlways1966
05-21-2006, 12:15 PM
A guy I know had a conversation with Obrien last year. I wasnt there, so I cant say for sure that is what he said, but I trust the guy enough that he would make up something like that. There really wouldnt be a point in it. Take it for what its worth.

Not doubting you doug, but I find it hard to believe that DOB would tell anyone anything. Just from our experience when DOB was the GM here and never seemed to say anything about anything or anyone.

Although by last year's All-Star Break... even George Washington, had he been the bonehead-GM who gave that contract, would be telling lies to cover his butt too! :devil:

Bay Area Red
05-21-2006, 02:27 PM
Don't forget the Chris Reitsma for Bubba Nelson and Bong...both DFA

jimbo
05-21-2006, 02:49 PM
I still like the Williams for Casey deal. Saved the Reds lots of money and a double play, rally killing machine.



All it did was save Lindner a lot of money. The money saved from Casey's salary dump was supposed to be used for pitching, but it was never used for anything. Some will say that it went to Dunn, but I'm thinking Castellini would have still signed Dunn anyway. The trade was ridiculous at the time it was made and Williams showed exactly why it was.

Casey's DP stats increased last season but you also have to remember he played the whole season with a bad shoulder. The guy was still a .300 contact hitter who is difficult to strikeout, which the Reds have a need for.

I never had a problem with trading Casey. I don't consider any position player as untradeable, but at least get something of equal or greater value in return.

dougdirt
05-21-2006, 03:19 PM
Sean Casey was a .300 hitter with no power, no speed and no ability to drive in runs making way to much money for what he could do.

jimbo
05-21-2006, 04:01 PM
Sean Casey was a .300 hitter with no power, no speed and no ability to drive in runs making way to much money for what he could do.

He hit 24 home runs and 99 rbis just two seasons ago. You can't pass judgement on a player based on one season when he played with an injury the majority of that season.

KronoRed
05-21-2006, 04:05 PM
I don't buy that Carl forced Dan O to sign Milton, he may have said go sign a starter but I doubt he said "Go overpay by 20 million bucks for Eric Milton"

Milton's agent should be in the agent HOF for that deal.

Matt700wlw
05-21-2006, 04:45 PM
I don't buy that Carl forced Dan O to sign Milton, he may have said go sign a starter but I doubt he said "Go overpay by 20 million bucks for Eric Milton"

Milton's agent should be in the agent HOF for that deal.

Lindner probably didn't know Eric Milton from me.

KronoRed
05-21-2006, 04:46 PM
Lindner probably didn't know Eric Milton from me.
Bummer for you, that 25 mill could have been yours :devil:

Steve4192
05-21-2006, 05:40 PM
He hit 24 home runs and 99 rbis just two seasons ago. You can't pass judgement on a player based on one season when he played with an injury the majority of that season.
True. But you also can't hold up a players best season and completely ignore the rest of his career. Nor can you ignore that he has battled injuries nearly every year of his career. Casey was a darn good player in 1999-2000 and 2004, but the other five years of his Reds career was fairly mediocre, and his Pirates career is off to a shaky start.

jimbo
05-21-2006, 06:07 PM
True. But you also can't hold up a players best season and completely ignore the rest of his career. Nor can you ignore that he has battled injuries nearly every year of his career. Casey was a darn good player in 1999-2000 and 2004, but the other five years of his Reds career was fairly mediocre, and his Pirates career is off to a shaky start.

I wouldn't call averaging 15 home runs and 75 rbis a year along with a batting average of over .300 mediocre, and that's even including his first season as a Red when he didn't play full-time. I'll agree in that his salary is too high, but the money saved by dumping him was never used for anything.

His "shaky start" this season is due to broken bones in his back, hard to be critical of him on something like that.

Steve4192
05-21-2006, 07:31 PM
I wouldn't call averaging 15 home runs and 75 rbis a year along with a batting average of over .300 mediocre
Compared to his peers (other NL 1B), that is exactly what I would call it.

His "shaky start" this season is due to broken bones in his back, hard to be critical of him on something like that.
You can when injuries have become a recurring problem. You claimed last years sub-par numbers were the result of his shoulder problems. The same ailment is often cited as the reason behind his sub-par 2001 & 2002 campaigns. This year, Sean has already missed 1/4 of the season because of a bad back. You can't help the club from the tub, and Casey has spent a large portion of his career in the tub. Sean hasn't been able to stay healthy for more than a year or two at any point in his career. It should surprise no one that he is injured once again.

cincinnati chili
05-21-2006, 07:45 PM
I still like the Williams for Casey deal.



Assuming that the money was/will be put back into the team in an intelligent way, I agree with you.

I don't understand the people here who think that there was a market for Casey. If you have sources, saying so, please let me know.

My understanding is that Casey had NEGATIVE trade value. In other words, we needed to pay any team to take the contract off our hands. We actually did that, if I'm not mistaken. Casey got a bonus of a mil. or two in the event he got traded. If I'm not mistaken the Reds paid that. But still 6 or 7 mil. saved is worth it, assuming it didn't go straight into ownerships' pockets.

dsmith421
05-21-2006, 08:01 PM
A guy I know had a conversation with Obrien last year. I wasnt there, so I cant say for sure that is what he said, but I trust the guy enough that he would make up something like that. There really wouldnt be a point in it. Take it for what its worth.

Sounds like DanO was pulling a CYA move there, if it went down like that.

O'Brien may well be a nice guy in person but I doubt I've ever disliked anyone associated with one of my teams as much. I will now read a list of 764 names in a boring monotone.

I still don't mind the Casey-for-Williams deal, it's been a poop sandwich in terms of direct return but the indirect result of the trade was the Dunn extension, the flexibility to move Pena, and clearing out playing time for more productive ballplayers (Freel, Aurilia, Encarnacion).

jimbo
05-21-2006, 08:10 PM
Compared to his peers (other NL 1B), that is exactly what I would call it.

You can when injuries have become a recurring problem. You claimed last years sub-par numbers were the result of his shoulder problems. The same ailment is often cited as the reason behind his sub-par 2001 & 2002 campaigns. This year, Sean has already missed 1/4 of the season because of a bad back. You can't help the club from the tub, and Casey has spent a large portion of his career in the tub. Sean hasn't been able to stay healthy for more than a year or two at any point in his career. It should surprise no one that he is injured once again.

The guy has broken bones in his back as a result of a collision at first, as have several of his injuries have been the result of. Let's not make it up as something that just popped up. Injuries are a part of the game. You will be hard pressed to find any player that can stay healthy year in and year out. Take away his first year when he wasn't playing full-time yet, and he's averaged 140 games played a season. That doesn't exactly tell me that he's missed too much.

If you are going to compare his numbers to the likes of Pujols, then you are correct. Put Casey's numbers against every starting first baseman in the league during the last 7 seasons, you will probably find that he is in the top half.

Steve4192
05-21-2006, 08:42 PM
Take away his first year when he wasn't playing full-time yet, and he's averaged 140 games played a season. That doesn't exactly tell me that he's missed too much.
True, he doesn't miss a ton of games ... but your original argument was that injuries were responsible for his lousy 2005 season. If he is constantly getting dinged up and can't perform because of those injuries, he isn't really helping the team by playing through them.

Casey apologists like to rationalize his bad years by claiming 'he was injured', but then counter with 'he doesn't miss many games' when someone calls him injury prone. You can't have it both ways. Either his performance is very erratic or he is constantly dinged up. Pick one ... I don't care which.

jimbo
05-21-2006, 09:13 PM
True, he doesn't miss a ton of games ... but your original argument was that injuries were responsible for his lousy 2005 season. If he is constantly getting dinged up and can't perform because of those injuries, he isn't really helping the team by playing through them.

Casey apologists like to rationalize his bad years by claiming 'he was injured', but then counter with 'he doesn't miss many games' when someone calls him injury prone. You can't have it both ways. Either his performance is very erratic or he is constantly dinged up. Pick one ... I don't care which.

Ok, I'm starting to forget what the original point was. I don't consider myself an "apologist." I just don't believe a lot of the bashing and criticism that Casey gets from Reds fans is fair. Do I think he is Albert Pujols? No. Do I think he is an above average hitter and an above average first baseman who can help a team? Definite yes.

Orginial point was that the Casey trade was nothing but a salary dump and the Reds got nothing of value back. Along with that, the money saved by dumping his salary was not used in a way that we the fans were told it would. It was a trade that ended doing nothing for this team.

dougdirt
05-21-2006, 09:43 PM
Along with that, the money saved by dumping his salary was not used in a way that we the fans were told it would. It was a trade that ended doing nothing for this team.

The trade was made by an owner and a GM that are no longer with the team. Do you expect the new guys to keep the word that they didnt themselves make?

jimbo
05-21-2006, 10:02 PM
The trade was made by an owner and a GM that are no longer with the team. Do you expect the new guys to keep the word that they didnt themselves make?

No, I'm not throwing any criticism their way. The previous owner and GM had 2-3 months to do something so the criticism belongs to them. I am merely stating it was a bad trade.

savafan
05-22-2006, 12:22 AM
Wasn't Casey hit in the head by a pitch or errant throw during his first season, and missed a lot of time from that? I seem to remember this.

johngalt
05-22-2006, 12:27 AM
I don't buy that Carl forced Dan O to sign Milton, he may have said go sign a starter but I doubt he said "Go overpay by 20 million bucks for Eric Milton"

Milton's agent should be in the agent HOF for that deal.

When you make a run at Pavano, Clement, Lowe and all the other good starters and get turned down and your ownership says "bring in a 'name' pitcher to show we mean business about winning," it's not too surprising you end up overpaying for a guy based on his number of wins.

Doesn't make DanO any smarter, but explains how and why it happened.

Krusty
05-22-2006, 12:36 AM
Another way to look at it is Krivsky saved the day by getting a cheaper version of Casey in Hatteberg.

johngalt
05-22-2006, 12:38 AM
Wasn't Casey hit in the head by a pitch or errant throw during his first season, and missed a lot of time from that? I seem to remember this.

Yeah, he was hit in the head with a ball during BP before Opening Day and it fractured the orbital bone in one of his eyes (can't remember which one). Initially, there was a lot of fear that he might have permanently lost sight, but he was back about midway through the year I believe. Played mostly at Triple-A and then also some with the big league club.

SteelSD
05-22-2006, 01:20 AM
The trade was made by an owner and a GM that are no longer with the team. Do you expect the new guys to keep the word that they didnt themselves make?

Castellini approved that deal.



If you are going to compare his numbers to the likes of Pujols, then you are correct. Put Casey's numbers against every starting first baseman in the league during the last 7 seasons, you will probably find that he is in the top half.

Sean Casey 1999-2005:

1999: +18.6 Runs Above Position
2000: +5.4 RAP
2001: -2.0 RAP
2002: -18.8 RAP
2003: -5.5 RAP
2004: +25.3 RAP
2005: -1.2 RAP

Total Runs Above Position: 21.8 RAP
RAP/Season 1999-2005: +3.11 RAP

Over the past 7 seasons, Sean Casey has been nearly the poster child for "league average First Baseman". He ranks "top half" just as the 50th person out of 100 would technically be in the top half of that sample. The two very good seasons he had over his last seven seasons are the only reason he'd even rank that high.

That being said, the Williams deal still ranks as flat-out awful because there's a market for what Casey provides- character and Batting Average. If you can't provide a GM to give up actual value for that while you pay half the salary, then you might as well just close up shop.

schroomytunes
05-22-2006, 06:28 AM
Yeah O'Brien was pretty bad, no doubt, but if you look in the long term..krivsky is doing things right he's cutting the dead weight right now. we are fielding the best team we have at this point, and at the same time not selling our youngsters for mediocre pitching. I think by the trade deadline you will see us move some guys for pitching, right now the league has a lot of teams in spots we haven't seen for a while, For instance we are over 500, the Tigers, and on the opposite the twins and braves aren't at the top anymore. Come JUly we are going to see some teams inquire about our players and they will overpay so why give them away now. Who's available come July? Here goes:

C-Valentin and Larue
RP-Weathers,Mercker,Hammond,White
Utility-Aurilia, Freel
SP-Milton

I think our best chips are:Weathers,Aurilia,Freel,Valentin,and Mercker if healthy...thoughts?

REDREAD
05-22-2006, 07:04 AM
A guy I know had a conversation with Obrien last year. I wasnt there, so I cant say for sure that is what he said, but I trust the guy enough that he would make up something like that. There really wouldnt be a point in it. Take it for what its worth.

Could be DanO covering his rearend again. He was very defensive about his performance. For example, remember DanO claiming that he left the Reds farm system stocked?

My guess is that Carl ordered DanO to sign an ace pitcher, and DanO was too inept to convince anyone but Milton.

I doubt Carl Linder even knew who Eric Milton was before DanO signed him. I doubt John Allen was forcing him to sign Milton either.

Sorry, but the blame for Milton (and Ortiz last year) is 100% DanO.
I really don't like how DanO thinks he did a great job here. All he gives is excuses, I am so glad Cast ran his sorry butt out of town.