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BigREDSfaninKY
05-21-2006, 12:37 AM
I got to thinking with Bonds tying Ruth with his 714th homer, what hallowed records are there in baseball that won't be touched. 1) Nolan Ryan - 5714 strikeouts. Clemens is around 1200 k's behind and won't catch him unless he pitches till he's 50. 2) Walter Johnson - 110 shutouts. This one is not even close since no current player is even half way to this number. 3) Cy Young - 511. Since 300 is the magical number for wins for pitchers, this number is safe as well. 4) Rickey Henderson - 1406 stolen bases. The value of the stolen base has decreased in the last 10-15 years. 5) Sam Crawford - 309 triples. Only 2 current players have more than 92 triples and both of them are aging vets, Steve Finley (118) and Kenny Lofton (92). 6) Pete Rose - 4256 hits. Longevity and consistency is what is needed to break a record like this. Although many baseball historians thought Cobb's 4191 would stand, Rose bettered that and then some.

Any other records you can think of that will never be passed?

reds44
05-21-2006, 12:38 AM
Cal Ripken

BCubb2003
05-21-2006, 12:45 AM
Johnny Vander Meer

edabbs44
05-21-2006, 12:45 AM
Cy Young's most losses in a career...383, I think. Think about it. Average twenty losses per year for 19 years.

GOREDSGO32
05-21-2006, 12:47 AM
Number 1 has to be Henderson's 150 SB's in a year ... that will NEVER be broken. It might be 130 SB's, cant remember .... either way it won't be broken in todays game, it just wont happen.

Shaknb8k
05-21-2006, 12:48 AM
Cy Young's most losses in a career...383, I think. Think about it. Average twenty losses per year for 19 years.

Same for his career wins

paintmered
05-21-2006, 12:48 AM
Joe Nuxhull.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2006, 12:51 AM
Joe DiMaggio's 56-consecutive-game hitting streak will never be broken, IMO.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2006, 12:52 AM
The only record, IMO, that will never, ever be broken is Cy Young's 511. The arrow of time is not going to reverse and allow pitchers to throw the requisite number of innings that this guy threw that allowed him to be eligible for those wins.

All the others, while huge hurdles, aren't insurmountable. Maybe the 110 shutouts. That would be the next closest one. Edit: Yeah, I take that back. No way anybody ever gets 110 shutouts.

So, IMO, there are two untouchable records.

reds44
05-21-2006, 12:53 AM
Joe Nuxhull.
Yeah the youngest play ever to play in a game?

How old was he 14 or 16?

edabbs44
05-21-2006, 12:58 AM
Joe DiMaggio's 56-consecutive-game hitting streak will never be broken, IMO.
I can see that being broken. Not sure what would make it so impossible.

MrCinatit
05-21-2006, 01:40 AM
Yeah the youngest play ever to play in a game?

How old was he 14 or 16?

In between. Fifteen. To paraphrase, Joe, imagine sitting in school one moment, then standing on the mound facing Stan Musial the next.
This perhaps could be baseball's unbreakable record. Through the ages, we have found that no record is completely unbreakable - though some (Young) are darn near close

NastyBoy
05-21-2006, 04:56 AM
Adam Dunn 195 Ks.

MrCinatit
05-21-2006, 05:50 AM
Oh, how i wish i could find this book:
Many years ago, I remember reading a book written in the late '50s about baseball's unbreakable records.
These included:
Ty Cobb's seasonal and career stolen base records.
Ty Cobb's hit record.
Lou Gehrig's consecutive game winning streak.
Babe's seasonal and career home run record.
The Babe's RBI record.
George Sisler's seasonal hit record.
Walter Johnson's career strikeout record.
Bob Feller's seasonal strikeout record (after the turn of the century).
It also stated the year of the career 300 game winner was dead. Of course, once Spahn and Wynn joined the club, many said they would be the last. When Carlton, Seaver, Niekro and Perry joined the club, many said they would be the last. Now that Clemens and Maddox have joined the club...you get the picture.

SirFelixCat
05-21-2006, 06:50 AM
Johnny Vander Meer


This, coupled with Cy Young's 511 wins are the two "untouchables" imo.

In order to break Johnny's record, a pitcher would have to throw 3 consecutive no-hitter's.


Simply won't happen.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2006, 08:43 AM
Adam Dunn 191 Ks.

I know you were trying to take a cheap shot at Dunn, but you are wrong on this one. This record may fall this year - Brad Wilkerson is on pace for 220 strikeouts; Dunn is on pace for 196; Jonny Gomes is on pace for 192.

Notice there are two excellent players in that bunch (Dunn and Gomes) and the other is a solid hitter. Strikeouts don't matter.

dman
05-21-2006, 09:44 AM
Walter Johnson's 110 shutouts. This will stand because we are in an age of worrying too much about pitch counts. Really, when you look at it, just a complete game by a starter will have gone the way of the dinosaur sooner or later, let alone a shutout.

GAC
05-21-2006, 10:03 AM
Strikeouts don't matter.

They're an out.

And while I am not one who, in the past, has gotten all worked up over Dunn's Ks, I find this statement (or belief) that strikeouts don't matter inconsistent.

So some outs have greater or lesser value then other other types of outs?

What bothers me about Adam is the WAY he strikeouts out - swinging at bad pitches. He came up, IMO, with far greater plate discipline. And I don't define plate discipline solely on walks taken.

paintmered
05-21-2006, 10:39 AM
They're an out.

And while I am not one who, in the past, has gotten all worked up over Dunn's Ks, I find this statement (or belief) that strikeouts don't matter inconsistent.

So some outs have greater or lesser value then other other types of outs?

What bothers me about Adam is the WAY he strikeouts out - swinging at bad pitches. He came up, IMO, with far greater plate discipline. And I don't define plate discipline solely on walks taken.

Good post GAC, but let's keep this thread on topic.

RedFanAlways1966
05-21-2006, 10:52 AM
Single Season Losses By a Pitcher?
48 - John Coleman in 1883, Philadelphia (NL) :eek:

Most Consective Losses By a Pitcher?
27 - Anthony Young, 1992-1993, Mets

paintmered
05-21-2006, 11:00 AM
Single Season Losses By a Pitcher?
48 - John Coleman in 1883, Philadelphia (NL) :eek:

Most Consective Losses By a Pitcher?
27 - Anthony Young, 1992-1993, Mets

:laugh: :laugh:

Yeah, those are safe.

RedLegSuperStar
05-21-2006, 11:31 AM
Cy Young's most losses in a career...383, I think. Think about it. Average twenty losses per year for 19 years.

Sorry I you lose 20 a year you wont be pitching in the big leagues.

westofyou
05-21-2006, 12:08 PM
Outs


CAREER

OUTS OUTS
1 Pete Rose 10328
2 Hank Aaron 9136
3 Carl Yastrzemski 9126
4 Cal Ripken 8893
5 Eddie Murray 8570
6 Rickey Henderson 8510
7 Dave Winfield 8422
8 Robin Yount 8415
9 Brooks Robinson 8340
10 Luis Aparicio 8110


Worst seasonal secondary average


SEASON
MODERN (1900-)

SECONDARY AVERAGE YEAR SEC
1 Hal Lanier 1968 .062
2 Ollie O'Mara 1918 .069
3 Hal Lanier 1969 .073
4 Emil Verban 1944 .074
5 Hal Lanier 1967 .076
6 Ivy Griffin 1920 .079
7 Tommy Thevenow 1930 .082
8 Fred Raymer 1905 .082
9 Hunter Hill 1904 .083
10 Freddie Maguire 1931 .083


Fewest career strikeouts


CAREER
MODERN (1900-)
AT BATS >= 5000

STRIKEOUTS SO AB
1 Wid Conroy 0 5061
2 Willie Keeler 1 5040
3 Harry Davis 4 5372
4 Ginger Beaumont 14 5223
5 Fred Tenney 17 5331
6 Bill Bradley 18 5297
7 Danny Murphy 24 5395
8 Cy Seymour 25 5057
9 Harry Steinfeldt 32 5202
10 Bobby Wallace 40 6672

VR
05-21-2006, 12:24 PM
woy wins :laugh:

BuckWoody
05-21-2006, 12:34 PM
As suspect and unpopular as it is, does anyone see someone hitting more than 73 home runs in a season? That one's still in the books as the single season record regardless of how it may have been accomplished.

big boy
05-21-2006, 12:43 PM
does anyone see someone hitting more than 73 home runs in a season?

Pujols should have that by September.

Stewie
05-21-2006, 12:49 PM
625 (and counting) intentional walks by Barry Bonds. Hank Aaron is second with 293.

KronoRed
05-21-2006, 05:08 PM
Adam Dunn 191 Ks.
I hope Adam shatters it, more K's for him equals more HR's and RBI :D


On topic...hits will never fall.

edabbs44
05-21-2006, 05:35 PM
Sorry I you lose 20 a year you wont be pitching in the big leagues.
Exactly why it will not be broken.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2006, 05:36 PM
Are *negative* records like losses and Ks really records? I mean in the honorific sense?

dsmith421
05-21-2006, 09:27 PM
FCB is right about the development of the game making old pitching records like Young's 511 victories, Jack Chesbro's 41-10 season, the Big Train's 110 shutouts, etc., pretty much untouchable.

Provided that the league doesn't end up treating him with the Bondsian kid gloves (i.e., 250 walks in a season), I could see Pujols challenging the records for Home Runs, Hits, and even Runs Scored.

Let's consider a different angle: what standing record right now do you consider 'weak' and most likely to be broken? Given where Alex Rodriguez is at this point, I don't see Aaron's record standing for another decade, even if Bonds' physical decline precludes him hitting 756.

vaticanplum
05-21-2006, 09:38 PM
Oh, how i wish i could find this book:
Many years ago, I remember reading a book written in the late '50s about baseball's unbreakable records.
These included:
Ty Cobb's seasonal and career stolen base records.
Ty Cobb's hit record.
Lou Gehrig's consecutive game winning streak.
Babe's seasonal and career home run record.
The Babe's RBI record.
George Sisler's seasonal hit record.
Walter Johnson's career strikeout record.
Bob Feller's seasonal strikeout record (after the turn of the century).
It also stated the year of the career 300 game winner was dead. Of course, once Spahn and Wynn joined the club, many said they would be the last. When Carlton, Seaver, Niekro and Perry joined the club, many said they would be the last. Now that Clemens and Maddox have joined the club...you get the picture.

Unbelievable that they didn't mention (or it's possible it was forgotten) Hack Wilson's 191 RBI in a season, which of all of these is a record that actually still stands. I think it's very unlikely to be broken -- not impossible, but very unlikely.

GAC
05-21-2006, 09:40 PM
FCB is right about the development of the game making old pitching records like Young's 511 victories, Jack Chesbro's 41-10 season, the Big Train's 110 shutouts, etc., pretty much untouchable.

Provided that the league doesn't end up treating him with the Bondsian kid gloves (i.e., 250 walks in a season), I could see Pujols challenging the records for Home Runs, Hits, and even Runs Scored.

Let's consider a different angle: what standing record right now do you consider 'weak' and most likely to be broken? Given where Alex Rodriguez is at this point, I don't see Aaron's record standing for another decade, even if Bonds' physical decline precludes him hitting 756.

And espcially with the smaller ballparks that place such great emphasis on the HR and offense.

edabbs44
05-21-2006, 09:43 PM
FCB is right about the development of the game making old pitching records like Young's 511 victories, Jack Chesbro's 41-10 season, the Big Train's 110 shutouts, etc., pretty much untouchable.

Provided that the league doesn't end up treating him with the Bondsian kid gloves (i.e., 250 walks in a season), I could see Pujols challenging the records for Home Runs, Hits, and even Runs Scored.

Let's consider a different angle: what standing record right now do you consider 'weak' and most likely to be broken? Given where Alex Rodriguez is at this point, I don't see Aaron's record standing for another decade, even if Bonds' physical decline precludes him hitting 756.
Hack Wilson's 190 RBI. Impressive, but if a great hitter is positioned in a lineup the right way that could be easy. Imagine if Pujols had 2 guys with great OBPs hitting in front of him? It could fall by August.

cincinnati chili
05-21-2006, 09:51 PM
Cy Young - Most Wins, Most Losses

Bobby Cox - times getting caught picking his nose on national television

GAC
05-21-2006, 09:53 PM
Bobby Cox - times getting caught picking his nose on national television

NO PICK! NO PICK! :lol:

edabbs44
05-21-2006, 09:57 PM
Cy Young - Most Wins, Most Losses

Bobby Cox - times getting caught picking his nose on national television
I thought Torre held that record.

RedFanAlways1966
05-21-2006, 09:58 PM
* Ty Cobb's .367 Career Batting Average.
> Can't see it happening.

* Babe Ruth's .690 Career Slugging Average.
> Ya think?

* Sam Crawford's 312 Career Triples.
> Over 15 years of 20 triples/year to do it.

* Hank Aaron's 2,297 RBIs.
> Over 15 years of 150 RBI/year to do it.

* Ed Walsh's 1.82 Career ERA.
> Over 2,900 innings pitched, 1904-1917.

* Nolan Ryan's 2,755 Career Walks Allowed
> Over 15 years of 184 walks/year to do it.

* Christy Mathewson's 10 World Series Complete Games
> Wow.

bottom_feeder
05-21-2006, 10:00 PM
I know this was before the modern era, so this record really doesn't count, but the first Reds' shortstop (was the owner's brother) hit over .600 and scored over 300 runs in a season.

BCubb2003
05-21-2006, 10:04 PM
How soon do you think someone's going to pitch three consecutive no-hitters?

dman
05-21-2006, 10:06 PM
How about Nap Lajoie's single season batting average of .426?

Cyclone792
05-21-2006, 10:08 PM
More unbreakable records, IMO

Chief Wilson's 36 triples in 1912 won't ever be touched.
Barry Bonds' growing total of career intentional walks.
Pete Alexander's 16 shutouts in 1916 (tied by George Bradley in 1876, but the game was vastly different then).
Barry Bonds' .609 on-base percentage in 2004.
Billy Hamilton's 192 runs scored in 1894.

One I almost put on the list, but believe there is an outside shot of it eventually being broken is Tris Speaker's 792 career doubles.

Cyclone792
05-21-2006, 10:15 PM
How about Nap Lajoie's single season batting average of .426?

Lajoie doesn't even own that record. Hugh Duffy hit .440 in 1894. But no, I don't think anyone will come close to either one :) The modern single season batting average record is Rogers Hornsby's .424 in 1924, and I don't think that will ever be touched either.

Ty Cobb and Rogers Hornsby also share the record for number of seasons hitting .400 or better as each accomplished the feat three times. That means a player would have to hit .400 or better four times to break that record. Not happening.

ochre
05-21-2006, 10:16 PM
I think they changed the way pitching wins (and losses) were awarded since Young's day. I think it used to be more of the discretion of the official scorer. If that's so, that as much as anything else is why his records will never be broken. Kind of like holding a track record in 100 yd dash. They just don't run that distance any more.

terminator
05-21-2006, 11:18 PM
I think ochre raises a good point. It's almost impossible to figure which records will stand and fall because it's almost impossible to guess what the game of baseball will look like in 50 years.

If they move the mound in 5 feet and raise it 10 inches, any pitching record could fall. If they move the fences in another 25 feet at every park and move the pitcher back 5 feet, any hitting record could fall. Or it could work the other way . . . move the fences back to 550 feet and suddenly every gap double becomes a triple. Move those fences to 550 and maybe stolen bases become one of the most important facets of the game.

For that matter, who knows, maybe the economics of professional sports collapse and it becomes a working Joe game again like in the pre-modern era? Or maybe MLB contracts, the Yankees keep all of the money and have the All-Star team and everyone on the team is a 35 HR & 100 RBI guy. Then how many runs could a player drive in?

But if there are no rule or park dimension changes and the game stays the same, I think a number of records mentioned here are untouchable. Probably Cy Young's 511 wins being right up at the top since twenty-five years of twenty wins isn't going to happen.

Dunner44
05-21-2006, 11:59 PM
What is the record for number of consecutive put outs without an error? I guess that record would be relatively new, however, since some of the best fielders up through the 50s made over 20 errors a game before the glove came in vouge.

Cedric
05-22-2006, 12:07 AM
I like Rickey Henderson and his career and season base stealing records. And didn't Vince Coleman go like 55 attempts without getting thrown out? That's possible to be broken though.

Wheelhouse
05-22-2006, 12:07 AM
Cy Young -- 749 Complete games