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OnBaseMachine
05-21-2006, 02:29 AM
Lefebvre - what a smart man.:rolleyes: While Adam Dunn has had a terrific career up to this point, I still don't think he has reach his fullest potential just yet. Sadly, Lefebvre slowed Dunn's progress down with his stupidity. If not for him messing with Dunn, we would probably be looking at a .310/.470/.600+ type of player right now, which would possibily make him the best player in the game.

Q: Adam Dunn appears to be playing Home Run Derby every at-bat. Aren't there three bases out there for a reason? Bill, Cincinnati

A: When Dunn first came up, he hit the ball to all fields and for an average. Then former hitting coach Jim Lefebvre decided the big guy should pull everything and changed his stance and approach. Dunn still rues the day and doesn't say nice things about J.L. And he hasn't been able to turn it back around. As for three bases, Dunn manages to find them all as he tours the bases on his home runs or runs around them after one of his many walks.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0521askhalweb.html

KronoRed
05-21-2006, 02:34 AM
I loath Lefebvre

Topcat
05-21-2006, 04:45 AM
Not to excuse JL cuz I wont. But is there an off season in baseball? Can a player not get other coaching and YES the Reds will pick up the tab. Please Adam I so wish you retire as a red and more importantly I am tired of the bashing the casual fan heaps upon you.

jmcclain19
05-21-2006, 05:35 AM
I guess I don't see how this is big news now. Lefebvre hasn't been a Reds coach in four years and Dunn's numbers are much better with Chambliss as his coach. Nothing you can do about it now.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2006, 07:20 AM
I guess I don't see how this is big news now. Lefebvre hasn't been a Reds coach in four years and Dunn's numbers are much better with Chambliss as his coach. Nothing you can do about it now.

Dunn is one of the top 15 hitters in the game right IMO, but there is a pretty good chance he would be the best or at least one of the top three players in the game if Lefebvre hadn't altered Dunn's approach at the plate. Dunn was hitting roughly .320/.470/.565 at the time that Lefebvre decided he would turn one of the best young hitters in the game into strictly a pull hitter. This senseless thinking sent Dunn into a year and a half tailspin. He has since recovered and developed into an awesome .950 OPS hitter, but not the 1.050 OPS player that I think he can be.

GAC
05-21-2006, 08:15 AM
I guess I don't see how this is big news now. Lefebvre hasn't been a Reds coach in four years and Dunn's numbers are much better with Chambliss as his coach. Nothing you can do about it now.

Exactly. This is old news. To still be blaming JL now is kinda ridiculous IMO.

When does Dunn take some accountability/responsibility?

westofyou
05-21-2006, 09:58 AM
The Yankees changed Hank Sauer's approach just like the aforementioned change. 10 years later the Reds traded Sauer because they tried to change him back to an all fields hitter and it didn't take.

He went on to have quite a career after they dumped him.

4256 Hits
05-21-2006, 10:36 AM
Oh please! That was four years ago. That like blaming your high school teacher because your 25 years old and unemployeed. How about Dunn getting some blame for Dunn not reaching his potental. (Even w/ not reaching his potential he is still great). Or just maybe his potential is not this high .310/.470/.600+.

Here is another thought what if Lefebvre didn't make this change maybe Dunn would have a line like this .200/.310/.400? You never know how the past has impacted the future. He could have seen a hugh hole in his swing that he thought pitchers would figure out. It not like Lefebvre is some amutuer that they pulled of the street to be hitting coach.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2006, 10:45 AM
Here is another thought what if Lefebvre didn't make this change maybe Dunn would have a line like this .200/.310/.400? You never know how the past has impacted the future. He could have seen a hugh hole in his swing that he thought pitchers would figure out. It not like Lefebvre is some amutuer that they pulled of the street to be hitting coach.

Please explain why Dunn was hitting .320/.470/.560+ and then went into a year and a half tailspin after Lefebvre altered his plate approach. Coincidence? Not in my opinion.

Hubba
05-21-2006, 10:58 AM
Could you show me where and when this happened ? It's not that I dont believe you I just want to check this out.
Please explain why Dunn was hitting .320/.470/.560+ and then went into a year and a half tailspin after Lefebvre altered his plate approach. Coincidence? Not in my opinion.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2006, 11:04 AM
Could you show me where and when this happened ? It's not that I dont believe you I just want to check this out.

Read my first post in this thread. It has a quote from Hal confirming what most of us already knew: Lefebvre and Boone altered Dunn's approach hoping it would lead to better power numbers. :bang:

Hubba
05-21-2006, 11:13 AM
Read my first post in this thread. It has a quote from Hal confirming what most of us already knew: Lefebvre and Boone altered Dunn's approach hoping it would lead to better power numbers. :bang:I dont want a question and answer thing I want to see where the numbers came from. Sorry:bang: And I dont think most of us already knew.

IslandRed
05-21-2006, 11:16 AM
Read my first post in this thread. It has a quote from Hal confirming what most of us already knew: Lefebvre and Boone altered Dunn's approach hoping it would lead to better power numbers. :bang:

Which was just patently ridiculous, considering that across three levels, he hit 51 homers the year he came up. And yes, folks, he was a high-average hitter coming out of the minor leagues.

I'll agree that in the end, it's Dunn and Dunn alone who is responsible for his results. But ask any golfer -- if you make swing changes and get yourself screwed up, it's not as simple as saying "just go back to what you were doing before."

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2006, 11:16 AM
I dont want a question and answer thing I want to see where the numbers came from. Sorry:bang: And I dont think most of us already knew.

I wasn't aiming that head banging smilie at you, btw.

Sorry, but I'm not sure if there were any articles written back then regarding Lefebvre and Dunn, but I do remember hearing about it on the radio and TV.

TeamBoone
05-21-2006, 12:39 PM
I dont want a question and answer thing I want to see where the numbers came from. Sorry:bang: And I dont think most of us already knew.

If you doubt what someone says, you have the ability to look up the numbers... try ESPN and MLB for starters. They don't have to do it for you.

Steve4192
05-21-2006, 12:53 PM
Please explain why Dunn was hitting .320/.470/.560+ and then went into a year and a half tailspin
Perhaps it had something to do with the difference between AA pitching and MLB pitching?

Dunn was never a 320 hitter in the majors. His BA dropped with each promotion through the system in his breathrough 2001 season. He hit 343 in Chattanooga, 329 in Louisville, and 262 in Cincinnati before Lefebvre ever got a hold of him. Prior to 2001, nothing in his minor league resume indicated that he would be a monster BA hitter. His career BA in single-A was around 290.

Dunn just had a ridiculously hot five-month run in 2001 which fooled people in to thinking he would be another Albert Pujols. He's not. He's just a damn fine power hitter with a great OBP who will always hit in the 250-270 range. Nothing wrong with that.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2006, 12:57 PM
I dont want a question and answer thing I want to see where the numbers came from. Sorry:bang: And I dont think most of us already knew.

I just re-read this and saw that you are looking for stats. My bad.

Gamelog (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6763&year=2002)to Dunn's 2002 season.

June 18 he was hitting .321/.470/.573

Hubba
05-21-2006, 01:01 PM
If you doubt what someone says, you have the ability to look up the numbers... try ESPN and MLB for starters. They don't have to do it for you.I just asked him where he got his info. Now keep your nose out of my business:rolleyes: You don't run this show>

Hubba
05-21-2006, 01:05 PM
I just re-read this and saw that you are looking for stats. My bad.

Gamelog (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6763&year=2002)to Dunn's 2002 season.

June 18 he was hitting .321/.470/.573Thanks OBM I'll move on now.

TeamBoone
05-21-2006, 01:15 PM
I just asked him where he got his info. Now keep your nose out of my business:rolleyes: You don't run this show>

Not trying to, but when you post on a public board "your" business is not private.

And you could have made your point to me without being so snotty about it.

Hubba
05-21-2006, 05:43 PM
If you doubt what someone says, you have the ability to look up the numbers... try ESPN and MLB for starters. They don't have to do it for you. #[URL="http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=985830&postcount=3"][COLOR=#ffffff]3Quote:
Originally Posted by [B]dougdirt
Word I have heard says Obrien didnt want to sign Milton, but that Carl told him he didnt have a choice but to sign him.



If true, this was never publicized. Source?__________________

Team Clark
05-21-2006, 09:36 PM
Exactly. This is old news. To still be blaming JL now is kinda ridiculous IMO.

When does Dunn take some accountability/responsibility?

Never happen. Doesn't pick up a bat or a glove in the off season. Doesn't want to so he's not going to. That's just Adam.

I was impressed with his approcah and his swing in ST. Best approach I have ever seen Adam have at the plate. His thought process and pitch selection were phenomenal. He was swinging just a hair slower and really making great contact with the ball. The first two games I saw him play he was 3 for 6 with a single, double and HR. The Single and Double were to the opposite field. I don't buy the "Lefebvre screwed me up" line. In Adam's defense it sounds like the words are being put in his mouth.

4256 Hits
05-21-2006, 09:48 PM
Please explain why Dunn was hitting .320/.470/.560+ and then went into a year and a half tailspin after Lefebvre altered his plate approach. Coincidence? Not in my opinion.

The most logical would be that scouting/pitchers came up w/ a better way to pitch to him. I also rememeber hearing Dunn say back there that he physically wore down as the season when on and didn't realize how much long baseball season wore the body down. Remember that in the past he had only played partial season because he was leaving to play football.

Lefebvre may have messed w/ Dunn four years ago and caused the drop off but I don't buy that he is still messed after having 3 other hitting instrutors after Lefebvre. You maybe right since as I said there is no way to know how what happened in the past impacts the future.

TeamBoone
05-21-2006, 11:22 PM
The most logical would be that scouting/pitchers came up w/ a better way to pitch to him. I also rememeber hearing Dunn say back there that he physically wore down as the season when on and didn't realize how much long baseball season wore the body down. Remember that in the past he had only played partial season because he was leaving to play football.

Adam Dunn never left baseball to play football; his football days were over when he made the decision to pursue baseball professionally.

The reason he played a partial season his first year with the big club is because he wasn't called up from Louisville until August.