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View Full Version : Just back from Detroit...a couple thoughts.



deltachi8
05-21-2006, 06:53 PM
Just returned from Detroit after taking in Saturday night's thriller. Just wanted to share a few thoughts...

Terrific ball park and great atmosphere as the place was jammed. Sat in the RF bleachers next to 4 Tiger season ticket holders who could not have been nicer. These guys we all mid 20's and loved talking baseball and the Tigers, great to see.

Junior's slam landed 15 feet from me. What a shot. The Tiger fan who caught the ball would not give in to the demands of the section to "throw it back." I was weraing my griffey shirt and recieved some good natured barbs thrown my way after the slam.

Sad to see Tiger Stadium in an abandoned state. This was my first trip to Detoit so I have nothing to comapre it to, but still sad.

Junior has to move to LF of 1b. First things I noticed last night was how deep Junnior played EVERYONE and how far Kearns shades over to CF. I would say 3-4 hits should have been caught. The tiger announcers today (listening on my drive home) also noted this when they saw where Freel lines up and said Junior is hurting the reds with his lack of range.

It was a poor throw by Lopez but Aurillia looked like a statue on that one. I'm not releaseing FeLo from blame, but it should be shared.

Milton topped out at 87 last night. As long as that happend, you will see a similar pitching line.

Detroit is not a fluke, they are good, young and can stay in this all year. Not sure what they need at the deadline, perhapps an OF, but the rest is there.

The Tiger announcers had alot of nice things to say about Harrang, comparing him to Denny McLain (the way his motion is deceptive and makes his fastball appear faster than it is).

If you havent made that trip, do so, it was well worth it.

JEA
05-21-2006, 08:52 PM
It was a poor throw by Lopez but Aurillia looked like a statue on that one. I'm not releaseing FeLo from blame, but it should be shared.

I was wondering if it was just the angle of the replays or exactly what it looked like: Aurilia wearing cement shoes.

I saw the replay from one angle in which it looked like one of those botched football passes where the receiver never sees the ball coming. Aurilia almost had a "I can't believe you threw that at me" looks on his face.

Thanks for the report. I want to get to Jacobs and PNC this year, but based on your report, I'm thinking I should add a Tigers game to the mix.

(What'd you think of the costs - tickets, parking, concessions, commute, etc.?)

reds44
05-21-2006, 08:53 PM
I was wondering if it was just the angle of the replays or exactly what it looked like: Aurilia wearing cement shoes.

I saw the replay from one angle in which it looked like one of those botched football passes where the receiver never sees the ball coming. Aurilia almost had a "I can't believe you threw that at me" looks on his face.

Thanks for the report. I want to get to Jacobs and PNC this year, but based on your report, I'm thinking I should add a Tigers game to the mix.

(What'd you think of the costs - tickets, parking, concessions, commute, etc.?)
Ironically it looked the same today on the Harang throw. Niether throws were good, at all, but last night RA didn't really give a good effort to pick it, then today he didn't even move for the Harang throw.

Both throws needed to be MUCH better, but RA didn't help.

jnwohio
05-21-2006, 09:23 PM
It was a poor throw by Lopez but Aurillia looked like a statue on that one. I'm not releaseing FeLo from blame, but it should be shared.




Same thought crossed my mind watching on TV then the light went on.... There were two outs when the ball was hit. The runner was moving from third on contact. The run scores unless the Reds get the out. If he can't play it from the bag, unless he can step off and get it and then come back to the bag or make the tag, it makes no difference; the run would still score and the game would still be over. So Aurilia really had no alternatives.

Another thought I had was that with a slow runner like Young coming to 2nd, did Lopez have a play there? On the TV it looked like a bang/ bang playing shaoping up at first regardless of the quality of the throw. Didn't the Reds lose a game in StLouis last year on an almost identical play?

reds44
05-21-2006, 09:27 PM
True, but he really made a half hearted effort to pick it. It was almost as if he stuck his glove out and prayed it would go in it.

GAC
05-21-2006, 09:46 PM
First things I noticed last night was how deep Junnior played EVERYONE and how far Kearns shades over to CF. I would say 3-4 hits should have been caught. The tiger announcers today (listening on my drive home) also noted this when they saw where Freel lines up and said Junior is hurting the reds with his lack of range.

Everyone seems to see this but the Reds management.

And I believe the reason they don't press this issue is because it is Ken Griffey Jr. And it's sad.

But I think 1B would be harder on his legs/knees.

And one thing I have really noticed on Jr is his "weak" base running. Especially to 1B.

I don't think he is doing this because he is lazy; but because he is trying to protect his legs.

But it is still hurting us.

Yachtzee
05-21-2006, 10:19 PM
Just returned from Detroit after taking in Saturday night's thriller. Just wanted to share a few thoughts...

Terrific ball park and great atmosphere as the place was jammed. Sat in the RF bleachers next to 4 Tiger season ticket holders who could not have been nicer. These guys we all mid 20's and loved talking baseball and the Tigers, great to see.

Junior's slam landed 15 feet from me. What a shot. The Tiger fan who caught the ball would not give in to the demands of the section to "throw it back." I was weraing my griffey shirt and recieved some good natured barbs thrown my way after the slam.

Sad to see Tiger Stadium in an abandoned state. This was my first trip to Detoit so I have nothing to comapre it to, but still sad.

Junior has to move to LF of 1b. First things I noticed last night was how deep Junnior played EVERYONE and how far Kearns shades over to CF. I would say 3-4 hits should have been caught. The tiger announcers today (listening on my drive home) also noted this when they saw where Freel lines up and said Junior is hurting the reds with his lack of range.

It was a poor throw by Lopez but Aurillia looked like a statue on that one. I'm not releaseing FeLo from blame, but it should be shared.

Milton topped out at 87 last night. As long as that happend, you will see a similar pitching line.

Detroit is not a fluke, they are good, young and can stay in this all year. Not sure what they need at the deadline, perhapps an OF, but the rest is there.

The Tiger announcers had alot of nice things to say about Harrang, comparing him to Denny McLain (the way his motion is deceptive and makes his fastball appear faster than it is).

If you havent made that trip, do so, it was well worth it.

Nice recap of your trip. I'm jealous!

I've always had good experiences with Tigers fans. I've dated a few Tigers fans in the past and known some others. They tend to be very knowledgeable and good natured about toward others. I have fond memories about spending time at an ex-girlfriend's house, hanging out in the backyard and listening to Ernie Harwell with her and her dad, drinking homebrew.

Heath
05-21-2006, 11:59 PM
Thanks for the report. I want to get to Jacobs and PNC this year, but based on your report, I'm thinking I should add a Tigers game to the mix.

(What'd you think of the costs - tickets, parking, concessions, commute, etc.?)


For the trifecta of ballparks around the Cincinnati area - you could do no worse than those three-

I'd probably put Comerica 2nd between PNC (1) and Jacobs (3) - Comerica is very easy to get too - I'd recommend the parking in the garage behind CF and eating at the game. They have a Big Boy and Montgomery Inn! :eek:

Good time - 4 hrs from Cincy to Detroit. - Nice park.

George Foster
05-22-2006, 12:12 AM
Everyone seems to see this but the Reds management.

And I believe the reason they don't press this issue is because it is Ken Griffey Jr. And it's sad.

But I think 1B would be harder on his legs/knees.

And one thing I have really noticed on Jr is his "weak" base running. Especially to 1B.

I don't think he is doing this because he is lazy; but because he is trying to protect his legs.

But it is still hurting us.

I started a thread about 2 weeks ago about how everyone on the team is told were to play except for Jr. He gets to choose. I got slammed, and was told basically I was a Griffey hater. I'm not. I want what is best for the team and it ain't Jr. in center. He is an employee of the Reds and should be told that he is moving to a different position, for the good of the team. If he is a team player, he will accept it. All of this Jr. is a hall of famer crap has got to end. He is a first round hall of famer...no doubt. With that being said, what is good for the team in 2006 should take priority. Bench did move to third...right? He knew he was less affective behind home, he could extend his career moving to a different position, and he knew his bat was still important to the line-up. Moving to third is a lot harder than moving to a different outfield position or 1st base.

Cedric
05-22-2006, 12:15 AM
I loved Comerica, but it wasn't PNC. Anyone that get's a chance should catch a night game there. With the bars and where the stadium is it's perfect.

deltachi8
05-22-2006, 12:52 AM
I agree Ced, Comerica is great but PNC is the best of the new parks I have been to. Have not yet hit GAPB but looks like I will July 14.

Parking ran me $10, about a five minute walk to the park. Concessions seemed more expensive but we didnt buy much (my son got a large soda $4.50). Since I am from Buffalo, the commute is differnt for me, but was nice, 4 hours across Canada. Stayed in WIndsor and of course forgot my map to the park so kinda guessed my way (its how I saw Tiger Stadium up close). The return, I just followed the traffic.

Here was one indication of the Reds D in the OF - in RF there is a spot or two worn into the grass where the RFs usuallu stand. Kearns was certainly to the CF side of that spot.

I will be returning to Detroit (well until they enact the pass port requirements, them I'm done).

GAC
05-22-2006, 09:59 AM
I started a thread about 2 weeks ago about how everyone on the team is told were to play except for Jr. He gets to choose. I got slammed, and was told basically I was a Griffey hater. I'm not. I want what is best for the team and it ain't Jr. in center. He is an employee of the Reds and should be told that he is moving to a different position, for the good of the team. If he is a team player, he will accept it. All of this Jr. is a hall of famer crap has got to end. He is a first round hall of famer...no doubt. With that being said, what is good for the team in 2006 should take priority. Bench did move to third...right? He knew he was less affective behind home, he could extend his career moving to a different position, and he knew his bat was still important to the line-up. Moving to third is a lot harder than moving to a different outfield position or 1st base.

You're basically right. And how did George Foster get a starting position? What moves were made? ;)

oneupper
05-22-2006, 10:07 AM
Bench did move to third...right? He knew he was less affective behind home, he could extend his career moving to a different position, and he knew his bat was still important to the line-up..

Just for the Record, IIRC, management didn't promote Bench moving to third, it was Bench himself. At one point, he refused to catch more than 2 games a week because of his back and knees (mostly back, I believe). Bench was trying to prolong his career, not improve the team (which was pretty bad anyway IIRC).

Bad back and everything, Bench was probably better behind the plate than his backups.

scounts22
05-22-2006, 10:47 AM
I posted this on the game thread from Saturday but thought I'd put it here too.



Went to the game tonight with a Tigers fan. I was really surprised at how many Reds fans were there. They were all over the place. I had some Reds gear on and was pretty mercilessly harassed out in the concourse and in the bathroom.

It's a good thing we used Coffey last night to protect that lead. Just dumb!

I know it's been said in this thread several times already, but they have got to get Griffey out of CF yesterday. He cost the Reds dearly tonight. I don't think there's many outfileders in the game that wouldn't have been sitting under a couple of the bloop hits that dropped tonight. What's frustrating about it is that it's not necessary. They have alternatives. And while I buy the "tradeoffs" argument to some degree, I don't think it applies in the case of Junior in CF. It's not a tradeoff the Reds have to make.

His GS was an incredible moment. This guy Sumaya (or whatever his name is) struts in from the bullpen with a lot of flash and show. The crowd loves the guy. The guy sitting a couple of seats over from me said to be prepared to see triple digits. I said to him that the Reds tend to hit flame throwers fairly well. It was the soft tossing lefties they struggled with. He laughed at me.

Jim Leyland is going to cost the Tigers more games than he'll win for them this year. Milton is getting hit hard, it's the 5th inning in the first outing after a DL stint. He's a bad pitcher to begin with. The leadoff guy gets on and Leyland sees fit to try to either steal a base or hit and run with a 4 run lead and a chance to put the game out of reach. Brilliant. I told the guy if the Reds come back to win, you can point to that inning as a lost opportunity. I was almost right.

Ultimately defense cost the Reds the game tonight (I know, FCB, Milton didn't help, but the game was won after Milton was out of the game and then blown byt the defense). I was sitting in left field, so I didn't have the best angle, but it looked like Dmitri's ball hit ti Phillips was a good DP ball that BP bobbled. It could have got them out of the inning. Everyone here was saying it was a nice play, so maybe it wasn'ta DP ball. And from where I was sitting, Guillen would have been EASILY out on the stolen base had FeLo not dropped the ball. WHAT WAS LEYLAND THINKING THERE!!!!!!!!

It was funny watching Hammond pitch. The hitters just can't wait for the ball to get there. When I first tried to play softball after playing baseball my whole life, I had the hardest time waiting for the ball to get to the plate. That's what it's like against Hammond.

Tigers fans are an odd bunch or I was in a weird section (cheap seats). I wondered if some of them had ever been to a baseball game before. But the place was packed. There were few empty seats.

Comercia park is such a great stadium. I've been to a lot of the newer ones, and this is is the best of all of them, IMO. But the food there is the worst I've ever had at a ballpark.


I was at the game too, section 114 down the right field line. I couldn't believe how many Reds fans were there too. I proudly sported my Dunn jersey and heard a few "Reds/Dunn sucks!" comments. My friend (who is actually a fan of both teams) even teased me.

The Tigers fans around me were not nice. Some bitter lady in front of me (who sported an I-Rod jersey) was waving to all Reds batters when they struck out, telling each and every one to "Have a seat" and "Don't forget to write." After about the 5th time I heard that, I wanted to punch her. There was about to be a girl fight! It was a little obnoxious. :angry:

I whole-heartedly agree with all of the statements you made about the game. Those bloopers in the 3rd inning were ridiculous and Jr definitely hurt the defense last night. The major disgust started for me when Narron brought in Rick White to pitch. I was utterly surprised when he got an out without giving up a run.

I am extremely upset to admit that I was waiting in line for food when Jr hit the granny. Comerica is a nice park, I really liked it overall, but I waited in line for 2 innings for food. It was horrible and I was :censored: . I did get to watch it on the TV screens while waiting in line for my $4.75 coney.

Overall I had a nice time at the game but the way the Reds lost made me want to crawl in a hole.

Oh, and the fireworks after the game were pretty sweet!:D

Benny-Distefano
05-22-2006, 10:52 AM
Move Junior to LF... When Freel plays, he is in CF, when he doesn't, Kearns I guess.

Seems simple enough. Oh, and tell Jr's ego to have a seat on the bench (if he is the reason why the switch hasn't been made). ;)

westofyou
05-22-2006, 10:58 AM
Just for the Record, IIRC, management didn't promote Bench moving to third, it was Bench himself. At one point, he refused to catch more than 2 games a week because of his back and knees (mostly back, I believe). Bench was trying to prolong his career, not improve the team (which was pretty bad anyway IIRC).

Bad back and everything, Bench was probably better behind the plate than his backups.
Yep and he announced it to the press before telling the team, so they traded Knight for Cedeno, then Chief Bender tried to pin the Reds woes on Cedeno at the end of the year.

Bill James had a field day with that in the 84 Abstract.

Heath
05-22-2006, 11:03 AM
Yep and he announced it to the press before telling the team, so they traded Knight for Cedeno, then Chief Bender tried to pin the Reds woes on Cedeno at the end of the year.

Bill James had a field day with that in the 84 Abstract.

And on top of that Bench had the team stuck with the likes of Mike O'Berry, Alex Trevino, Dann Billardello, and Dave Van Gorder behind the plate because they couldn't get a full-time reciever.

And you thought Pete had a hard time at 3rd - Johnny made Pete look like a gold glover.

Pile on bad drafts, Dan Driessen regressing and people getting old/traded. Not a good early '80's folks.

Blimpie
05-22-2006, 11:15 AM
True, but he really made a half hearted effort to pick it. It was almost as if he stuck his glove out and prayed it would go in it.I coach baseball with 7 and 8 year olds. When they are playing 1B, even THEY are aware that throws to them will occasionally be in the dirt.

They learned very quickly that if it looks like the throw is gonna bounce, then the first priority is to make sure that it doesn't get past you....by any means necessary. If you have to come off the bag--hell, even if you have to do a belly flop on the ball--you do whatever it takes to ensure the ball doesn't get past you.

To say that Rich's effort at blocking the throw was 'lackluster' would be an understatment of biblical proportions. He looked more like a cigar store Indian than he did a first baseman.

Then again, I am sure that he still believes that Felipe 'stole' his gig at SS...

Heath
05-22-2006, 11:36 AM
To say that Rich's effort at blocking the throw was 'lackluster' would be an understatment of biblical proportions. He looked more like a cigar store Indian than he did a first baseman. Then again, I am sure that he still believes that Felipe 'stole' his gig at SS...


Uh, Blimpie, these people want to talk to you about your "conspiracy theory" - :eek:


http://www.evilscience.net/institutions/halloffame/xfiles.jpg

Cedric
05-22-2006, 11:37 AM
I coach baseball with 7 and 8 year olds. When they are playing 1B, even THEY are aware that throws to them will occasionally be in the dirt.

They learned very quickly that if it looks like the throw is gonna bounce, then the first priority is to make sure that it doesn't get past you....by any means necessary. If you have to come off the bag--hell, even if you have to do a belly flop on the ball--you do whatever it takes to ensure the ball doesn't get past you.

To say that Rich's effort at blocking the throw was 'lackluster' would be an understatment of biblical proportions. He looked more like a cigar store Indian than he did a first baseman.

Then again, I am sure that he still believes that Felipe 'stole' his gig at SS...

So what does getting in front of the ball at all means neccessary do for Rich in that situation? This wasn't a play where you try and make a miracle stab to keep the runners from advancing, he HAD to stay on the bag and make the play to save the game. He didn't get the job done, but not because he made the wrong decision.

flyer85
05-22-2006, 11:46 AM
So what does getting in front of the ball at all means neccessary do for Rich in that situation? This wasn't a play where you try and make a miracle stab to keep the runners from advancing, he HAD to stay on the bag and make the play to save the game. He didn't get the job done, but not because he made the wrong decision.no but he looked like what he is, an inexperienced 1B. When trying to dig throws you have to get down and come up with the ball (that way your glove is moving in the proper direction if you have to accelerate it) . Standing staight up and guessing where to put your glove has almost no chance of working.

Cedric
05-22-2006, 11:48 AM
no but he looked like what he is, an inexperienced 1B. When trying to dig throws you have to get down and come up with the ball (that way your glove is moving in the proper direction if you have to accelerate it) . Standing staight up and guessing where to put your glove has almost no chance of working.

He didn't do the job, I don't dispute that. I was just disagreeing with the assumption that he could have made a miracle play. He couldn't have, he had to keep his foot on the bag.

flyer85
05-22-2006, 11:51 AM
He didn't do the job, I don't dispute that. I was just disagreeing with the assumption that he could have made a miracle play. He couldn't have, he had to keep his foot on the bag.he could have but not with his approach, the technique was missing. Without the proper technique hsi chances were almost zero. RA is inexperienced at first and it shows from time to time. This team still is a bunch of mismatched parts with some guys playing out of position.

Blimpie
05-22-2006, 12:02 PM
So what does getting in front of the ball at all means neccessary do for Rich in that situation? This wasn't a play where you try and make a miracle stab to keep the runners from advancing, he HAD to stay on the bag and make the play to save the game. He didn't get the job done, but not because he made the wrong decision.Standing there catatonic isn't exactly the right decision either, is it? As others have mentioned, he simply doesn't have the reps at 1B. To even begin to know how to play one-hoppers cleanly, the key is to get repeated attempts to do just that.

Edit.

Cedric, I understand what you are saying. Flyer85's "mismatched parts" reference basically sums up this situation perfectly.

TeamBoone
05-22-2006, 12:44 PM
I think Jr sincerely believes he can still play CF (which, of course, he can; just not at the level of others who play the same position).

Perhaps if the powers that be have a good old-fashioned sit down with him and PROVE to him that he can't play at the level he needs to... well, who knows?

I would, however, remind everyone that in order for him to move to LF, Dunn must move to first. So I guess he would be the one to tackle first... and who knows what Krivsky promised him at the time of the LTC signing. Maybe nothing; maybe that was just a perceived fabrication on the part of some RZ members... but maybe he did. Again, who knows?

flyer85
05-22-2006, 12:52 PM
Who know what goes on behind closed doors?

The issue are
1) The Reds have a flyball pitching staff matched with what is arguably the worst OF defense in baseball(especially in CF)
2) They have an left side of the infield with erratic arms and have paired that with first basemen who don't do them any favors in saving errors while providing what will be sub par offense over the course of the season.

It would seem the solution at first base should be
a) superior offense and take the inferior defense
b) superior defense and settle for inferior offense
instead the Reds have chosen option c) inferior defense combined with inferior offense.

Makes sense to me. :doh:

TeamBoone
05-22-2006, 01:21 PM
I'm also left wondering why RA has played every game since his return. SHatteberg at least IS a first baseman and IMHO, was playing (and hitting) quite well.

Cedric
05-22-2006, 01:22 PM
I'm also left wondering why RA has played every game since his return. SHatteberg at least IS a first baseman and IMHO, was playing (and hitting) quite well.

Back to back lefthanders. Rich will always play 1b against them.

TeamBoone
05-22-2006, 02:16 PM
Back to back lefthanders. Rich will always play 1b against them.

Hmmm, and that's worked out so well.

thanks for the info though.

flyer85
05-22-2006, 02:23 PM
I'm also left wondering why RA has played every game since his return. SHatteberg at least IS a first baseman and IMHO, was playing (and hitting) quite well.Hatteberg is catcher who was converted to 1B in 2002 and spent the majority of last season as DH(I wonder why).

TeamBoone
05-22-2006, 02:42 PM
That's still 3 years at 1B... it's better odds for 1B than anyone else on the Reds 25-man roster. And, like I said, he's been scooping the ball pretty well.

flyer85
05-22-2006, 02:46 PM
That's still 3 years at 1B... it's better odds for 1B than anyone else on the Reds 25-man roster. And, like I said, he's been scooping the ball pretty well.he has as bad as footwork as I have seen in a major league first baseman, you have to be there in person and understand the position to appreciate how awful it is. It may well be due to his lack of athleticism but it causes him to come off the bag and miss throws that should be simple plays.

Chip R
05-22-2006, 03:06 PM
no but he looked like what he is, an inexperienced 1B. When trying to dig throws you have to get down and come up with the ball (that way your glove is moving in the proper direction if you have to accelerate it) . Standing staight up and guessing where to put your glove has almost no chance of working.

Here is the Reds problem in a nutshell, Hatteberg is the best option at 1st defensively. And if that doesn't give you the heebie-jeebies, nothing will. Aurilia has been adequate but isn't a natural 1st baseman. We talk about moving Dunn or Jr. over there but neither guy is going to make anyone forget J.T. Snow. Dunn might have been able to snare Lopez' errant throw because of his size but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Jr. hasn't played there so who knows how he would react to a less than perfect throw. There is a possibility of EE playing there but his inexperience may show there on that type of throw as well. Ironically, the 1st baseman witht he best chance of fielding Lopez' throw would be Casey. He's not great there but he is very adept at picking throws out of the dirt.

flyer85
05-22-2006, 03:10 PM
Ironically, the 1st baseman witht he best chance of fielding Lopez' throw would be Casey. He's not great there but he is very adept at picking throws out of the dirt.or as I have advocated the past month, acquire a slick fielding sub par offensively pickin machine to play 1b.