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View Full Version : Would you deal Bronson?



alloverjr
05-21-2006, 07:58 PM
From my vantage point this is all theoretical as I don't know individual team's system depth. I'll also add that I've never considered this team to be a contender and would put all of my emphasis into next year and beyond.

So, eventhough Bronson is locked up for a couple more years and is inexpensive, would you deal him for two high pitching prospects who could become contributors immediately for the Reds. I would think the ideal trading partner would have solid organizational depth at pitching but lacks that "post-season" presence that Arroyo can offer. Not a team like the Yanks. Also, being inexpensive opens up an entire worls of clubs that wouldn't be able or want to afford a one year rental.

I was personally never high on Arroyo and while he's had some great games to date, I don't like what I've seen the last few outings and would expect him to fall to his career norms sooner rather than later.

The whole premise behind this would be a 2 (at least) for one with the guys coming to the Reds ready to pitch and pitch well in the majors, not high A guys. Anyone willing to make such a move? If so, who fits the mold?

reds44
05-21-2006, 08:03 PM
No.

TheBigLebowski
05-21-2006, 08:04 PM
No.

Bronson's young enough. Looks like the move back to the NL has helped him.

I do not want to be in an infinite state of rebuilding. Bronson should be a fixture in this rotation for years to come.

Phhhl
05-21-2006, 08:11 PM
Depends on the return. I would think he'd be worth quite a bit right now.

Joseph
05-21-2006, 08:12 PM
Unless they somehow believe he isn't a good pitcher, I don't think you can trade a guy who is locked up for a very affordable rate and has given up the numbers he has so far this season.

As always, if there is something that knocks our socks off, then sure you do.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2006, 08:13 PM
I see no urgency to get rid of him.

CTA513
05-21-2006, 08:25 PM
Trade him to the Yankees for Kelly Stinnett. ;)

A team like the Mets might want him after Zambrano going down and then having to have Lima take his spot. :laugh:

Doc. Scott
05-21-2006, 08:26 PM
It really depends on the team's situation at the time. If it's the trading deadline and the Reds are 12 games out, maybe I would. Any chance of contention whatsoever... he stays.

Given his contract, it's probably wisest for Arroyo to stay no matter what, but Wayne's got to make a deal if the right one is out there, no matter who the player.

Nugget
05-21-2006, 08:26 PM
We finally get our hands on a good, inexpensive and fairly young pitcher and we're talking about dealing him. Its not as if your going to get a better pitcher just by dealing Arroyo and what have we got in the cupboard.

Marc D
05-21-2006, 08:27 PM
He's a career 4+ ERA type guy, not a true ace. I'd sell at his currently over valued market price if I could extract my pound of flesh from a desperate contender. His attractive contract and early season numbers should make that an easy sell for a good GM.

Aronchis
05-21-2006, 08:30 PM
We finally get our hands on a good, inexpensive and fairly young pitcher and we're talking about dealing him. Its not as if your going to get a better pitcher just by dealing Arroyo and what have we got in the cupboard.

He isn't fairly young, he is at his peek. Don't overestimate his potential. Bronson isn't a 20 game 3.00ERA pitcher.

Bronson should be traded if Krivsky's "real" timetable says he should be traded. The Reds may deal Pena through Bronson.

Nugget
05-21-2006, 08:34 PM
He isn't fairly young, he is at his peek. Don't overestimate his potential. Bronson isn't a 20 game 3.00ERA pitcher.

Bronson should be traded if Krivsky's "real" timetable says he should be traded. The Reds may deal Pena through Bronson.

He's 30ish and I'm not saying he is going to get better but he is worth 3-4 mil for the pitching he gives. Yes he is not going to be a Schilling, Johnson or Martinez in their prime but he is a great pitcher for the price. If the REDS keep trading guys just for more potential they're never going to go anywhere. You could say the same thing about Dunn, he's a great hitter but he doesn't have great speed nor is he a great defender but are you going to trade him for someone with more potential - I say NO!

Marc D
05-21-2006, 08:37 PM
If the REDS keep trading guys just for more potential they're never going to go anywhere.

Where are they going as currently constructed?

cincinnati chili
05-21-2006, 08:39 PM
Absolutely.... IF there's a great market for him.

1. His ERA will be closer to 5 than 2 by the end of the year

2. we're not going to make the post season with or without him

3. Good lefthanded hitters will adjust to him the second time around the league

Nugget
05-21-2006, 08:41 PM
The idea is that if you have something acceptable then keep it. I'm pretty sure plenty of teams would love a guy who can go out there win about 10-15 games a season and pitch 200 innings for 3-4 mil and thats the kind a pitcher the REDS need as well (actually all MLB teams). I think the REDS have enough in the pot that they really need to look at the farm system and see who they need and who they want to keep. They also know that there are a few others in the big league team who may or may not get moved on at the trade deadline. Admittedly your not gonig to get your ACE from those but you may get some of that potential your looking for.

remdog
05-21-2006, 08:46 PM
While I've been pleasantly surprised at the Reds play and have enjoyed it immensely I would look at trading Arroyo if it brought at least a 'stud' prospect ready for next years' rotation and a 'solid or better' guy for the bullpen. I don't think that a deal like that is available now but it might be at the trade deadline. Meanwhile, you hope that Bronson continues to polish his value by pitching well.

I also am of the mind that both the Reds as a team and BA as an individual will trend toward their career norms from here on out. Howerer, there are a number of things that have me looking towards a contending team as early as next year: Harang has continued to get better, Phillips has helped the 'D' in the infield plus hit better than expected and added to team speed, Lizzardo has been at least serviceable and, of course, EE has shown that we have the answer at third base for the next ten years.

Rem

Falls City Beer
05-21-2006, 09:25 PM
1. His ERA will be closer to 5 than 2 by the end of the year


I'm closer to 60 than 10. Am I old?

And I don't give away reasonably priced talent like Arroyo unless they offer the world, which they're not going to do.

I'd rather focus on turning the middlin talent like Kearns into upper-tier prospects/on-the-cusp guys than set the MLB team back several seasons by shipping out real MLB talent for projected talent.

I agree with Nugget's point; if they're producing and look to continue to produce, hold onto them if you can (money-wise). There should be no real hurry to get rid of producers.

Wheelhouse
05-21-2006, 09:30 PM
NO WAY. Arroyo has shown an ability to pitch smart that could keep him on the mound for many years. That's very rare. Even successful prospects have 5-8 year full-season careers. Bronson could have 10+.

IslandRed
05-21-2006, 09:31 PM
I'm not of a mind to; what you're basically hoping for, alloverjr, is that there's a team with two guys ready to be as good as Arroyo right now but doesn't trust them in a pennant race and will give them up for the Proven Winner. I suppose that's possible but I'm not holding my breath.

Having said that, because of his contract situation, it's at least theoretically possible a team could overpay in talent to acquire Arroyo because it won't have to overpay in dollars.

Caveat Emperor
05-21-2006, 09:38 PM
I'm of the mind that you never deal affordable pitching unless you're getting at least double the value in return.

Bronson, even back at carrer norms, is a better option than anyone not named Harang -- from AA on up -- in the Reds organization. He might not help them win a pennant this year, but he very well might help them next year or the year after.

I say keep him, unless he keeps up the Cy Young act past July...

TeamBoone
05-21-2006, 09:42 PM
Just curious. Why would one even entertain trading a good pitcher when pitching is the team's major weakness? Especially a good pitcher who's locked up for two more years at a GREAT price. The Reds would be hard pressed to obtain another of his calibre for that bargain basement cost, especially to a multi-year contract.

Aronchis
05-21-2006, 09:46 PM
Just curious. Why would one even entertain trading a good pitcher when pitching is the team's major weakness? Especially a good pitcher who's locked up for two more years at a GREAT price. The Reds would be hard pressed to obtain another of his calibre for that bargain basement cost, especially to a multi-year contract.

Because he isn't a 1-2, which the Reds need desperately. If some team would offer a potential 1-2 pitching in the upper minors, hard to turn that down. Arroyo is what he is.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2006, 09:50 PM
Because he isn't a 1-2, which the Reds need desperately. If some team would offer a potential 1-2 pitching in the upper minors, hard to turn that down. Arroyo is what he is.


Because of his affordability, Arroyo's value is higher than it might otherwise be. That minor leaguer would have to be 100% can't-miss #1 starter for the Reds to make that deal. I'd rather build the minors through smart drafting, and help the MLB team through trades.

Nugget
05-21-2006, 09:54 PM
Because he isn't a 1-2, which the Reds need desperately. If some team would offer a potential 1-2 pitching in the upper minors, hard to turn that down. Arroyo is what he is.

I know REDS fans think other teams are stupid when trading but why oh why if you are on the other side would you make the deal. If he is a #1 ready to start next year I would doubt that you couldn't bring him up this yaer and make him the #3-#5 starter that you think Arroyo is.

bottom_feeder
05-21-2006, 09:58 PM
I'd have to be totally blown away to even consider it. Bronson is exactly what this team needs. Good, cheap pitching that has cost certainty for several years.

KronoRed
05-21-2006, 10:05 PM
If we're out of it and someone is offering 2 or more good pitching prospects then yes.

alloverjr
05-21-2006, 10:21 PM
I understand those that don't want to give him up because of his cost certainty and probability of a lot of innings. However, I can't help but think that the Reds' pitching has been so bad for so long that a pitcher of Arroyo's caliber (IMO will produce an ERA north of 4) has now been raised to somewhat untouchable. No way do I give him away. Not my premise at all. I'm assuming (and maybe unjustifiably so) that there will be a team or teams willing to overpay with arms to get him for a playoff run. I'd be looking to build the 25-man with this type of deal, not the 40. I'd make the same trade - a 2 for 1 - if it were Dunn, Griffey, Lopez etc.

redsfan4445
05-21-2006, 11:01 PM
Why is it when a RED does good, everyone on this site wants to trade them??? does anyone expect to EVER compete for a chance to win a world series if we trade Kearns, Dunn,Bronson and Lopez???? get real. Thank GOD nobody from this site is GM...then we would have everyone upset wondering why we cant win with prospects!!!

dougdirt
05-21-2006, 11:35 PM
Absolutely I would trade him....if the right offer were to come along.

Caveat Emperor
05-21-2006, 11:49 PM
Because he isn't a 1-2, which the Reds need desperately. If some team would offer a potential 1-2 pitching in the upper minors, hard to turn that down. Arroyo is what he is.

Harang isn't a 1-2 either, but I think this team would win a lot more games than it lost with 3 Harangs and 2 Arroyos.

savafan
05-22-2006, 02:19 AM
Why is it when a RED does good, everyone on this site wants to trade them??? does anyone expect to EVER compete for a chance to win a world series if we trade Kearns, Dunn,Bronson and Lopez???? get real. Thank GOD nobody from this site is GM...then we would have everyone upset wondering why we cant win with prospects!!!

They want to trade the ones who are doing poorly also. Trade everybody, make Krusty happy! :D

KronoRed
05-22-2006, 02:22 AM
If you aren't getting to the playoffs nobody should be off limits.

CTA513
05-22-2006, 02:23 AM
They want to trade the ones who are doing poorly also. Trade everybody, make Krusty happy! :D

Trade everyone and bring up the single A team.

;)

RedsBaron
05-22-2006, 08:05 AM
Unless they somehow believe he isn't a good pitcher, I don't think you can trade a guy who is locked up for a very affordable rate and has given up the numbers he has so far this season.

As always, if there is something that knocks our socks off, then sure you do.
I agree. Nobody is untouchable, but I wouldn't be shopping Bronson.

oneupper
05-22-2006, 09:01 AM
This may not pertain to this thread, but Bronson just took over the NL ERA Lead!

OnBaseMachine
05-22-2006, 09:13 AM
If Arroyo can fetch a package including a couple of top prospects that could help the Reds within two years then I say deal him. He's cheap, still considered young, and is having a great year. He could bring in a big return in a trade.

For example, here are a few deals I would highly consider in return for Bronson Arroyo:

Dodgers:

A package featuring Chad Billingsley and one of the following players: 3B/1B Andy LaRoche, OF Matt Kemp, or RHP Justin Orenduff.

Angels:

A blockbuster that sends Kearns and Arroyo to the Angels for RHP Ervin Santana, RHP Jered Weaver, 3B/1B Dallas McPherson, and C Jeff Mathis.

Mets:

Mike Pelfrey and Fernando Martinez for Arroyo. Martinez is a 18 year old outfielder hitting .322/.391/.492 in low-A.

Yankees:

RHP Philip Hughes, RHP Tyler Clippard, and OF Jose Tabata.

Diamond Backs:

CF Chris Young, OF/2B Scott Hairston, and RHP Micah Owings. Reds may have to throw in someone else to get Hairston.

I'm all for keeping Bronson Arroyo, but if/when the time comes and the Reds are out of the race, I would deal Arroyo if teams are offering deals that would blow me away. I listed some deals above that I would have to think long and hard about doing.

To save you the trouble from having to look these players up I have provided links below to each and every prospect.

Chad Billingsley (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?clubs=&leagues=&t=s_pla&q=billingsley)
Andy LaRoche (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Andy%20LaRoche&pos=3B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=451188)
Justin Orenduff
(http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Justin%20Orenduff&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=449154)Matt Kemp (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Matt%20Kemp&pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=461314)

Ervin Santana (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7547)
Jered Weaver (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?clubs=&leagues=&t=s_pla&q=weaver)
Dallas McPherson (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?clubs=&leagues=&t=s_pla&q=mcpherson)
Jeff Mathis (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Jeff%20Mathis&pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=425772)

Mike Pelfrey (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?clubs=&leagues=&t=s_pla&q=pelfrey)
Fernando Martinez (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Fernando%20Martinez&pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=494686)

Philip Hughes (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Philip%20Hughes&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=461833)
Jose Tabata (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Jose%20Tabata&pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=467798)
Tyler Clippard (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Tyler%20Clippard&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=461325)

Chris Young (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Chris%20Young&pos=LF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=455759)
Scott Hairston (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?clubs=&leagues=&t=s_pla&q=hairston)
Micah Owings (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Micah%20Owings&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=452249)

registerthis
05-22-2006, 11:14 AM
Absolutely.... IF there's a great market for him.

1. His ERA will be closer to 5 than 2 by the end of the year

I'd happily take a 3.51 ERA out of Arroyo.

NJReds
05-22-2006, 11:19 AM
He's a career 4+ ERA type guy, not a true ace. I'd sell at his currently over valued market price if I could extract my pound of flesh from a desperate contender. His attractive contract and early season numbers should make that an easy sell for a good GM.

What WK should do then, is to try and get a real ace so that Arroyo could be a solid #2. I don't see the point in dealing off a fairly inexpensive starter that's under contract and pitching well.

TeamBoone
05-22-2006, 01:28 PM
I stand fast... you don't trade a proven, decent pitcher with a BARGAIN contract for prospect pitchers that may or may not pan out. Not when what you need is a proven, decent pitcher...

smith288
05-22-2006, 01:36 PM
No because no other team is going to trade their stud for Bronson. Simple as that.

Heath
05-22-2006, 03:59 PM
What is that line Gary Burbank used to say when he means to say "No"? Was it na-babba-na?

Put me down for one of those.

redsrule2500
05-22-2006, 04:20 PM
Now I've heard everything.

Too many trades just to trade

BuckeyeRedleg
05-22-2006, 05:18 PM
I'd happily take a 3.51 ERA out of Arroyo.

I agree and I'd go as far to say that for what is being paid, I would happily take a 4.00 ERA.

As long as it came along with 33 starts and 200+ innings.

Red Leader
05-22-2006, 05:44 PM
Angels:

A blockbuster that sends Kearns and Arroyo to the Angels for RHP Ervin Santana, RHP Jered Weaver, 3B/1B Dallas McPherson, and C Jeff Mathis.



Ervin Santana (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7547)
Jered Weaver (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?clubs=&leagues=&t=s_pla&q=weaver)
Dallas McPherson (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?clubs=&leagues=&t=s_pla&q=mcpherson)
Jeff Mathis (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Jeff%20Mathis&pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=425772)




I know he's probably as close to untradeable as someone could be, but I would try like hell to get Brandon Wood from the Angels if I'm dealing Arroyo.
Maybe Wood, Mathis, and Jered Weaver or Mathis, Wood and Santana for Arroyo and Kearns.

That's the kind of "bowl me over" deal I'd be looking for if I'm dealing Arroyo, because honestly, we NEED Arroyo. If someone's not going to totally overpay, we don't have to deal him.

Reds1
05-22-2006, 06:30 PM
He would be very difficult for the Reds to trade. Pitching is what we need and trading for say propects is just a huge chance. We have a great pitcher with a Reds friendly contract. Actually, a good question though. I never really even thought of it. We really need 1 or 2 more deals just like this.

Go Reds

KronoRed
05-22-2006, 07:14 PM
No because no other team is going to trade their stud for Bronson. Simple as that.
Sometimes you can find a foolish GM..

Do the Mets have anyone good? :D

redsrule2500
05-22-2006, 08:51 PM
Sometimes you can find a foolish GM..


What the Reds were known for past two years

remdog
05-22-2006, 09:04 PM
....We have a great pitcher....

Please tell me that the use of the word 'great' was intentional hyperbole. 'Great' may very well be the most overused word in sports. :eek:

Rem

Marc D
05-22-2006, 10:26 PM
Please tell me that the use of the word 'great' was intentional hyperbole. 'Great' may very well be the most overused word in sports. :eek:

Rem

OK then....brilliant pitcher. ;)

traderumor
05-22-2006, 11:56 PM
The Reds are so pitching poor, it would almost have to be a blockbuster to consider it. I might consider as a sweetener to move Griffey's salary if we bring back a major league ready starter and a center fielder of the future in the deal from someone looking to make a playoff run who is looking at a short window.

Nugget
05-23-2006, 12:03 AM
The REDS already have CF's of the future - Deno, Bruce and Szy

reds44
05-23-2006, 12:16 AM
The REDS already have CF's of the future - Deno, Bruce and Szy
Bruce is projected to be a corner outfielder, I really don't think you can classify a guy like Deno as a guy of the future, because I don't think his ceiling is average at best. i have also read where he may have to move to a corner outfield spot as well.

KronoRed
05-23-2006, 01:40 AM
I'll take AVG O if the D is worth is from Deno, also he'll be cheap.

savafan
05-23-2006, 02:10 AM
also he'll be cheap.

I'm tired of hearing this as a reason. With Lindner no longer in the ownership chair, I'm hoping the Reds don't have to so worried about how cheap a player is.

KronoRed
05-23-2006, 02:36 AM
They are still a small market club, and some spots on the roster are going to have to go to bargain guys.

savafan
05-23-2006, 02:54 AM
I consider them more of a mid-market club

KronoRed
05-23-2006, 03:19 AM
Only if they change how they marget.

Billboards that don't say WHO they are for would be a nice place to start

PuffyPig
05-23-2006, 10:24 AM
I'm tired of hearing this as a reason. With Lindner no longer in the ownership chair, I'm hoping the Reds don't have to so worried about how cheap a player is.
Unless you are the Yankees, salary is always an issue. Money saved in one place can be spent elsewhere. It's why we have Arroyo. His contract made him very attractive.

traderumor
05-23-2006, 03:02 PM
The REDS already have CF's of the future - Deno, Bruce and SzyUm, no. Denorfia has more range than Griffey, but who doesn't (yes, I did see the catches last night, which means a real CFer would have been able to do two backflips and still made the catch). Bruce and Szymanski are way too far away to project in that spot, and as has already been mentioned, are more likely corner guys. The Reds need a CFer, today, tomorrow and thereafter

TeamBoone
05-23-2006, 08:42 PM
Um, no. Denorfia has more range than Griffey, but who doesn't (yes, I did see the catches last night, which means a real CFer would have been able to do two backflips and still made the catch).

Aw come on, that's a bit harsh donchathink? They weren't that easy.

Topcat
05-23-2006, 11:20 PM
Unless Ervin Santanna and Brandon Wood are offered with a Red named Valentin going back plus Red's getting Chris Bootcheck then no way I deal a cost effective starter like BA off the Reds roster.