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View Full Version : Speed, defense is what the Reds need in Center



reds44
05-21-2006, 07:43 PM
Let me start out by saying that this is not a post to bash Ken Griffey Junior at all. I love Junior, he has been my favorite player since I was 6, and he was the reason I became a Reds fan. That being said the last night's game opend my eyes to how bad is range really is. He just cannot be an everyday center fielder anymore.

Let's look at some stats. In games where Freel on Deno started look at the amount of runs we give up.

4/13 @ Chicago (Freel) 3
4/14 @ St. Louis (Freel) 0
4/15 @ St. Louis (Freel, but Dave Williams started :laugh:) 9
4/16 @ St. Louis (Freel) 8
4/17 vs. Floria (Freel) 1
4/18 vs. Florida (Freel) 12
4/19 vs. Florida (Freel) 8
4/20 @ Milwaukee (Freel) 8
4/21 @ Milwaukee (Freel) 1
4/22 @ Milwaukee (Freel) 11
4/24 @ Washington (Freel) 2
4/25 @ Washington (Freel) 5
4/26 @ Milwaukke (Freel) 0
4/28 vs. Houston (Freel) 4
4/29 vs. Houston (Freel) 3
4/30 vs. Houston (Freel) 3
5/1 vs. St. Louis (Freel) 1
5/2 vs. St. Louis (Freel) 2
5/3 @ Colorado (Freel) 3
5/4 @ Colorado (Deno) 1
5/6 @ Arizona (Freel) 3
5/9 vs. Washington (Freel) 7
5/21 @ Tigers (Freel) 1

23 games, 96 runs, 4.17 runs per game

With Griffey in CF

4/3 vs. Chicago 16
4/5 vs. Chicago 6
4/6 vs. Pittsburg 5
4/7 vs. Pittsburg 6
4/8 vs. Pittsburg 9
4/9 vs. Pittsburg 5
4/11 @ Chicago 2
5/10 vs. Washington 6
5/11 vs. Washington 4
5/12 vs. Philly 8
5/14 vs. Philly 2
5/16 @ Pittsburg 9
5/17 @ Pittsburg 7
5/18 @ Pittsburg 8
5/19 @ Tigers 4
5/20 @ Tigers 7

16 games, 104 runs, 6.5 runs per game

Now as you can see there is an over 2 run per game difference when Griffey is in center then when Freel or Deno are playing. Now is that all Griffey's fault? No, but some of it is and the numbers don't lie.

Now it isn't like Griffey is useless or anything. In 18 games he has driven in 18 runs, and he has had 2 HUGE homers vs. Washington and the Tigers so without a doubt he can still stick. Like someone else said in another thread you can't just give away 100 RBI's a year and trade Junior for nothing.

Griffey's problem is not catching the ball, it is range. This is exactly why I think he would be an excellent defensive left fielder. It would be easier on his legs, and better for the team. Add that to having Dunn move to 1st and your defense imrpoves 10 fold.

Now I don't know if Freel is the answer in Center because he seemed to struggle with the bat at the end of his stint before Griffey came back, and I think he is an assest when he can play 5 positions. I have also read that Deno may not have the range when he fills into his body to play center everyday either. So maybe like OBM we need to make a trade for a centerfielder like Dukes from Tampa. All I know is something needs to be done about it.

dsmith421
05-21-2006, 08:16 PM
Interesting data. Griffey has lost at least two or three steps in the past few years (understandably). The list of guys who continue to play above-average defense in CF after the age of 35 is probably a short one, and dominated by speed merchants.

Moving Griff to LF is the ideal solution, but will require tact on Narron/Krivsky's part because you never know how a veteran like that will react.

GAC
05-21-2006, 08:52 PM
I don't think Jr should be in CF either; but your stats really don't specifically pinpoint or illustrate that the increase in runs allowed was due to Jr's CF play?..... not getting to balls, misplaying them, etc.

Cyclone792
05-21-2006, 08:57 PM
I don't think Jr should be in CF either; but your stats really don't specifically pinpoint or illustrate that the increase in runs allowed was due to Jr's CF play?..... not getting to balls, misplaying them, etc.

I think this post ...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=985895&postcount=32

and this post ...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=964983&postcount=21

might help help you out with what you're looking for, and both posts are actually in the same thread.

reds44
05-21-2006, 09:03 PM
I think this post ...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=985895&postcount=32

and this post ...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=964983&postcount=21

might help help you out with what you're looking for, and both posts are actually in the same thread.
Do you mind if I add that to my post?

Jr's Boy
05-21-2006, 10:20 PM
Reds44 if you can find a team that will eat the remainder of Griffey's contract then i'm all for it.

reds44
05-21-2006, 10:22 PM
Reds44 if you can find a team that will eat the remainder of Griffey's contract then i'm all for it.
Where in my post does it say trade Ken Griffey Jr?

Ron Madden
05-21-2006, 11:07 PM
Griffey's problem is not catching the ball, it is range. This is exactly why I think he would be an excellent defensive left fielder. It would be easier on his legs, and better for the team. Add that to having Dunn move to 1st and your defense imrpoves 10 fold.[Quote]

It seems most of us agree KGJ to LF, Dunn to 1B and Denorfia or Freel in CF improves the defense.

Some have said KGJ will not move to LF.
Some have said Dunn doesn't want to play 1B.
I say BUNK.

I believe they both would change positions, if asked to do so for the betterment of the Team.

It's up to Narron or WK to ask them. (JMHO)

George Foster
05-21-2006, 11:18 PM
I started a thread about 2 weeks ago about how everyone on the team is told were to play except for Jr. He gets to choose. I got slammed, and was told basically I was a Griffey hater. I'm not. I want what is best for the team and it ain't Jr. in center. He is an employee of the Reds and should be told that he is moving to a different position, for the good of the team. If he is a team player, he will accept it. All of this Jr. is a hall of famer crap has got to end. He is a first round hall of famer...no doubt. With that being said, what is good for the team in 2006 should take priority. Bench did move to third...right? He knew he was less affective behind home, he could extend his career moving to a different position, and he knew his bat was still important to the line-up. Moving to third is a lot harder than moving to a different outfield position or 1st base.

(I just posted this on "my trip to Detroit"...this is a better place to post it.)

Cedric
05-21-2006, 11:20 PM
This team is so rotten on defense that moving Griffey would barely solve anything. This season can't be fixed on this subject. You have to flip Felipe and Phillips, put Dunn at 1b and that's not something that's gonna happen in mid May.

deltachi8
05-22-2006, 12:12 AM
I think your right Cedric - spring training 07 you can do alot of this. However, I think Griffey to LF and Dunn to 1b could be done tomorrow as Griffey shoudl not have a problem (ability wise) moving to LF and DUnn has played enough 1b that he will be fine.

WVRedsFan
05-22-2006, 12:22 AM
I'm just curious. Not being mean-spirited at all.

When will this die? It's the same old sing-song every day. It gets old. Real old. Griffey will be placed somewhere else when he's asked to do it. It's the same with Dunn. For some reason Jerry Narron and his coaches and/or WayneK have decided it's in the best interests fo the club to keep them where they are.

And like Cedric said, it really makes no difference. With our pitching and the other 7 positions being fair to poor as far as defense is considered, it wouldn't mean ten games a year and most of those ten games would have little or nothing to do with Ken Griffey Jr. playing centerfield.

CTA513
05-22-2006, 12:55 AM
Reds44 if you can find a team that will eat the remainder of Griffey's contract then i'm all for it.

Reds missed that chance last year.

GridironGrace
05-22-2006, 06:35 AM
Tell me, aside from Dunn/Kearns. Who on this team has the ARM Jr has?

NOT FREEL

NOT DENO


And JR aint gonna run to Left feild and "STEAL" a fly ball from Dunn either *cough* Freel *cough*

Someone coulda got hurt there.

When Freel Throws someone out from Deep CF, then i'll START to listen to the otherside of this debate, Until then Ken Griffey JR is MY CF.

edabbs44
05-22-2006, 09:05 AM
Tell me, aside from Dunn/Kearns. Who on this team has the ARM Jr has?

NOT FREEL

NOT DENO


And JR aint gonna run to Left feild and "STEAL" a fly ball from Dunn either *cough* Freel *cough*

Someone coulda got hurt there.

When Freel Throws someone out from Deep CF, then i'll START to listen to the otherside of this debate, Until then Ken Griffey JR is MY CF.
Until he blows out his hamstring running for a ball in the gap. And true, it can happen in LF but it is more likely to happen in CF where you need more range.

Johnny Footstool
05-22-2006, 10:00 AM
Now is that all Griffey's fault? No, but some of it is and the numbers don't lie.

The numbers you posted do "lie." You're using macro-sized statistics (team runs given up) and ascribing them to a micro-situation (Griffey in CF). That's a poor use of data.

I agree that Griffey shouldn't be a CF anymore, but in order to prove your point with numbers, you need to get more specific data illustrating the number of hits allowed in the CF zone based on who's playing CF.

TeamBoone
05-22-2006, 11:27 AM
During a play in one of the last two Detroit games, both Griffey and Freel were running toward a fly ball which dropped in front of both players. Chris Welsh was disgusted (as disgusted as he can get anyway) and said that ball has to be caught.

My thought at the time is that Griffey slowed up at the last minute because Freel was coming right at him. At the last second, Freel scooted behind Griffey.

I was a little PO'd because the broadcasters blamed Griffey... I blame Freel. I think Griffey would have had the ball if Freel wasn't running toward him full bore.

Someday, he will get someone on the Reds hurt. Yes, he's fast and runs well... but the entire OF is not his oyster. And sometimes he interferes with a play that might be successful if he wasn't "in the way".

Highlifeman21
05-22-2006, 11:40 AM
Tell me, aside from Dunn/Kearns. Who on this team has the ARM Jr has?

NOT FREEL

NOT DENO


And JR aint gonna run to Left feild and "STEAL" a fly ball from Dunn either *cough* Freel *cough*

Someone coulda got hurt there.

When Freel Throws someone out from Deep CF, then i'll START to listen to the otherside of this debate, Until then Ken Griffey JR is MY CF.

First of all, Dunn's arm is nothing to write home to mom about...

Kearns probably has the best OF arm in our organization.

KGJ really doesn't have the same arm he used to either, so I think I'd rather take a Freel or Denorfia roaming CF getting to balls and having teams take a chance on their respective arms than teams getting free outs on balls that drop around KGJ.

KGJ won't throw anyone out from deep CF anymore. That ship has sailed.

flyer85
05-22-2006, 11:43 AM
KGJ has always had a good arm and still does. WHat he doesn't have is the range to play an adequate CF.

BenHayes
05-22-2006, 03:11 PM
I agree that Griffey doesn't have the range to play centerfield like Freel, however having Freel in the outfield is a dangerous thing for the other two outfielders because he is reckless. How many collisions and near collisions has he caused? I have no doubt that if he were in center and Griffey in left that he would undercut Griffey and end his season, not to mention having to worry about Kearns to.

edabbs44
05-22-2006, 03:18 PM
I agree that Griffey doesn't have the range to play centerfield like Freel, however having Freel in the outfield is a dangerous thing for the other two outfielders because he is reckless. How many collisions and near collisions has he caused? I have no doubt that if he were in center and Griffey in left that he would undercut Griffey and end his season, not to mention having to worry about Kearns to.
What's more likely...Freel huring someone else while playing CF or Griffey hurting himself while playing CF?

flyer85
05-22-2006, 03:23 PM
What's more likely...Freel huring someone else while playing CF or Griffey hurting himself while playing CF?The best option is Deno but that just isn't going to happen.

dabvu2498
05-22-2006, 03:31 PM
The best option is Deno but that just isn't going to happen.
Is Deno the best offensive option???

flyer85
05-22-2006, 03:31 PM
Is Deno the best offensive option???Not better than Jr but better than Freel.

dabvu2498
05-22-2006, 03:33 PM
I might have to agree with you there. Although most around here will not.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 03:34 PM
Is Deno the best offensive option???
Eventually you have trade off positions for defense, the part to adhere to is making it a key position so that a weak bat can be tolerated. After Griffey anything will be a drop offensively. But then again Cesar Geronimo was aquired because he had a long stride when running in centerfield not for his bat.

dabvu2498
05-22-2006, 03:36 PM
Eventually you have trade off positions for defense, the part to adhere to is making it a key position so that a weak bat can be tolerated. After Griffey anything will be a drop offensively. But then again Cesar Geronimo was aquired because he had a long stride when running in centerfield not for his bat.
With the BRM's offense, you could tolerate Geronimo in CF.

How many poor offensive CFs are there in MLB right now???

flyer85
05-22-2006, 03:37 PM
How many poor offensive CFs are there in MLB right now???a bunch

BenHayes
05-22-2006, 03:49 PM
Another problem they are facing is that their offense is fading fast. Things are beginning to snowball. It is true that if you can't field it is hard to win but if you can't score it is impossible to win even with good defense and pitching, which even though it is better, still isn't good enough to overcome a blank job by the opposition.

dabvu2498
05-22-2006, 03:50 PM
In the NL right now:
Abercrombie (FLA)
Byrd (WAS)
McLouth (PIT)
and Sullivan (COL)
are the ones that I think are below average offensive CFs right now. I'll do the AL research here in a minute.

flyer85
05-22-2006, 03:52 PM
In the NL right now:
Abercrombie (FLA)
Byrd (WAS)
McLouth (PIT)
and Sullivan (COL)
are the ones that I think are below average offensive CFs right now. I'll do the AL research here in a minute.Off th top of my head

Reed, Anderson, whoever is the flavor of the day in KC, Erstad(when he was healthy), Kotsay, Matthews Jr, Granderson, Gathright/Hollins, Patterson/Matos

edabbs44
05-22-2006, 03:54 PM
With the BRM's offense, you could tolerate Geronimo in CF.

How many poor offensive CFs are there in MLB right now???
Why would their be a sacrificing of offense? Junior isn't sitting down..he is moving to another position. So the trade off would be Freel/Deno for Hatteberg. Not exactly a huge loss.

dabvu2498
05-22-2006, 03:55 PM
In the AL:
Gathright (TB)
Patterson/Matos(BAL)
Whoever KC runs out there
Granderson (DET)
Anderson (CHW)
Rivera (CAL)
Reed (SEA)
those are the ones I'd say are "below average" offensively in the AL.

reds44
05-22-2006, 05:06 PM
In the NL right now:
Abercrombie (FLA)
Byrd (WAS)
McLouth (PIT)
and Sullivan (COL)
are the ones that I think are below average offensive CFs right now. I'll do the AL research here in a minute.
Actually Abercrombie is hitting like .330 in May so he hasn't been that bad. And Abercrombie, McLouth, and Sullivan are all still young.

I don't think the answer to this team CF position is in the system (if I remember correct Bruce is projected to be a COFer.

edabbs44
05-22-2006, 05:10 PM
Actually Abercrombie is hitting like .330 in May so he hasn't been that bad. And Abercrombie, McLouth, and Sullivan are all still young.

I don't think the answer to this team CF position is in the system (if I remember correct Bruce is projected to be a COFer.
Bruce is currently a CFer but is projected to outgrow the position and move to a corner OF position.

TC81190
05-22-2006, 05:27 PM
KGJ won't throw anyone out from deep CF anymore. That ship has sailed.

Uh did you watch last season?

And to answer the thread title's question:

Chris Young, AMIRITE? :D

reds44
05-22-2006, 05:29 PM
Uh did you watch last season?

And to answer the thread title's question:

Chris Young, AMIRITE? :D
Him or Elijah Dukes would work.

TC81190
05-22-2006, 05:35 PM
I'd strongly prefer Young. He's like Eric Davis II.

NastyBoy
05-23-2006, 02:26 AM
Looks like this topic is now dead after the 2 brilliant plays in CF last night. CF is not about speed... although that does help. CF is about getting a good break on the ball off the bat, which Griffey still can do and Edd Roush was notorious. What most people fail to recognize is that Griffey NEVER had world class speed... it has always been above average. Eric Davis and Caesar Geronimo both had great speed, but they were no Edd Roush.

WVRedsFan
05-23-2006, 03:13 AM
:clap:
Tell me, aside from Dunn/Kearns. Who on this team has the ARM Jr has?

NOT FREEL

NOT DENO


And JR aint gonna run to Left feild and "STEAL" a fly ball from Dunn either *cough* Freel *cough*

Someone coulda got hurt there.

When Freel Throws someone out from Deep CF, then i'll START to listen to the otherside of this debate, Until then Ken Griffey JR is MY CF.


:clap:

buckeyenut
05-23-2006, 05:54 AM
Looks like this topic is now dead after the 2 brilliant plays in CF last night. CF is not about speed... although that does help. CF is about getting a good break on the ball off the bat, which Griffey still can do and Edd Roush was notorious. What most people fail to recognize is that Griffey NEVER had world class speed... it has always been above average. Eric Davis and Caesar Geronimo both had great speed, but they were no Edd Roush.Freel/Deno wouldn't have had to dive. And CF is largely about speed. The jump is important, but speed is crucial in CF.

That is why folks are suggesting Jr is moved to LF. Speed is not nearly as important there and the jump is key.

edabbs44
05-23-2006, 06:42 AM
More importantly, how many people cringed when Grif slid for that ball in center? How many people winced when he got up, waiting for a limp? That kind of stuff can't happen every time our CF goes for a ball. The #1 reason why he should switch positions is to save his legs. #1A is b/c he can't get to balls the way he used to.

Benny-Distefano
05-23-2006, 08:12 AM
I too am torn. Yes those were two really fun catches he made last night. Highlight reel material, for sure.

...but would those catches have been "routine" for a speedy CF?

Hard to tell.

One thing I notice though... every time one of these threads gets about 3 pages deep, Griffey hits a Grand Slam or makes some great play in CF. Then he lets an easy one drop, or doesn't hustle, and a new thread is born. ;)