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Krusty
05-22-2006, 01:51 AM
I can hear the responses now but I'm going to throw it out and see what you think:

Dunn to the Yankees for RHP Chien-Ming Wang.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6209


Yankees viewpoint: It is no secret that the Yankees are looking for a lefthanded hitter to fill their void in LF with Matsui out and possibly DH. Trading Wang would be difficult for the Yankees especially when RHP Mike Mussina has been the most effective starter besides Wang.

Reds viewpoint: The Reds get a pitcher that keeps the ball in the ballpark. And while chicks might dig Dunn for the longball, it is no secret his glove is made of stone and there has been talked in Cincinnati that he is overweight. Trade Dunn and you shift Junior to LF where it would be easier on his legs. The Reds have to make a decision with OF Cody Ross ready to be activated from a rehab assignment, plus you have Chris Denorfia with nothing to prove at Louisville. Those two along with Freel would upgrade the outfield defensively. The Detroit series showed how bad the Reds are defensively in the outfield. You say about missing Dunn's bat but Dunn is horrible with runners in scoring position. Those home runs might be nice to watch but if he can't drive in players in scoring position, then you have to wonder if you're getting the most bang for your bucks.

Maybe the Reds would need to spruce up the deal but if you can upgrade the starting rotation while improving the outfield defense, is trading Dunn all that bad?

M2
05-22-2006, 01:52 AM
That would be the worst trade in history.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 01:54 AM
Harry Frazee blushed when he read about that deal.

CTA513
05-22-2006, 01:54 AM
That would be the worst trade in history.

But he has a name that can easily be made fun of. ;)

:devil:

dougdirt
05-22-2006, 01:55 AM
I would seriously consider it.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 01:57 AM
and there has been talked in Cincinnati that he is overweight.

Really?

Where?

I've haven't heard that anywhere.

Krusty
05-22-2006, 02:00 AM
That would be the worst trade in history.

Other than Dunn hitting home runs, what makes his game stand out that he is an untouchable? Edwin Encarncion and Brandon Phillips have more RBIs and less than half of the home runs Dunn has. Kearns is one RBI less than Dunn and his home run totals is way less than Dunn.

Like I said, Dunn's glove is made of stone and his batting average with RISP is horrific. Just take a look at this:

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?playerID=276055&statType=1&splitSet=1&c_id=cin&sitSplit1=rsp

M2
05-22-2006, 02:03 AM
I would seriously consider it.

You'd consider trading the best power hitter the franchise has developed since Frank Robinson for a slop pitcher?

Make a few deals like that and suddenly the Royals and Marlins would have company in the chase for 120 losses.

Krusty
05-22-2006, 02:03 AM
Really?

Where?

I've haven't heard that anywhere.

Listen to the pregame show Saturday night on XM radio. I forget the name of the talk show host on WLW but the discussion was about Dunn and how he is 25-30 lbs overweight. Now they said the Reds wouldn't do to Dunn like O'Brien did with Kearns last year by sending him to the minors because of the money he is making now. But the discussion with the host and callers seem to be that Dunn has no real desire to improve on his game other than hitting home runs.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 02:05 AM
Other than Dunn hitting home runs, what makes his game stand out that he is an untouchable? Edwin Encarncion and Brandon Phillips have more RBIs and less than half of the home runs Dunn has. Kearns is one RBI less than Dunn and his home run totals is way less than Dunn.

Like I said, Dunn's glove is made of stone and his batting average with RISP is horrific. Just take a look at this:

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?playerID=276055&statType=1&splitSet=1&c_id=cin&sitSplit1=rsp
Dunn plays LF, is his glove really that much of a deal?

Who led the team in RBI's the last 2 years? and runs scored?

What Reds players have ever had 100 runs/100rbi's/75 EBH in a year?

How many times?

How old were they?

How many players in the league can see up to 20 pitches in a game?

If RISP comprises 23% of the total at bats in a season should the other 77% be ignored.

Finally, when Dunn had a line of .265/.432/.614/1.047 on May 1st did he suck as much then as he does now?

westofyou
05-22-2006, 02:06 AM
I forget the name of the talk show host on WLW but the discussion was about Dunn and how he is 25-30 lbs overweight.You lost me at WLW.

275 at 6'6 and that's 25 pounds over?

Krusty
05-22-2006, 02:08 AM
You'd consider trading the best power hitter the franchise has developed since Frank Robinson for a slop pitcher?

Make a few deals like that and suddenly the Royals and Marlins would have company in the chase for 120 losses.

Yeah, I'm looking at a slop pitcher that was 8-5 in 18 starts with a 4.02 ERA for the Yankees in 2005. And to save that was a fluke...well he is 4-1 with a 3.79 ERA so far in 2006. Maybe he doesn't throw 150 strikeouts a season but he keeps the ball in the ballpark and if you're the Reds you are looking for those type of pitchers especially playing in the Great American Pinball Ballpark.

dougdirt
05-22-2006, 02:09 AM
You'd consider trading the best power hitter the franchise has developed since Frank Robinson for a slop pitcher?

Make a few deals like that and suddenly the Royals and Marlins would have company in the chase for 120 losses.

Power hitter, great. He hits for power, and thats about it. If he hits at all.

As for making the deal, i never said I would make it, I said I would think about it.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 02:09 AM
Yeah, I'm looking at a slop pitcher that was 8-5 in 18 starts with a 4.02 ERA for the Yankees in 2005. And to save that was a fluke...well he is 4-1 with a 3.79 ERA so far in 2006. Maybe he doesn't throw 150 strikeouts a season but he keeps the ball in the ballpark and if you're the Reds you are looking for those type of pitchers especially playing in the Great American Pinball Ballpark.
Replace Wang with Milt Pappas and Crosley with GAB and it's 40 years ago.

M2
05-22-2006, 02:12 AM
Other than Dunn hitting home runs, what makes his game stand out that he is an untouchable? Edwin Encarncion and Brandon Phillips have more RBIs and less than half of the home runs Dunn has. Kearns is one RBI less than Dunn and his home run totals is way less than Dunn.

Like I said, Dunn's glove is made of stone and his batting average with RISP is horrific. Just take a look at this:

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?playerID=276055&statType=1&splitSet=1&c_id=cin&sitSplit1=rsp

Well, I've always like his OB better than his HRs. I'll betcha a beer (a good one, not that yellowish water you drink) that Dunn winds up with more RBIs than Brandon Phillips by the year's end. Encarnacion could finish with a higher RBI total because he'll spend most of the year batting in close proximity behind the Reds' best OB player ... Adam Dunn.

What makes Dunn's game stand out is that year after year he ranks among the most productive offensive players in baseball. I don't give a rat's ass about BA w/RISP. Dude's got a .523 SLG and a .339 OB. Those are a little low by Dunn's standards, but they're still solid and they'll rise as the sample size grows (count on it). BA is the preschool playground of baseball fandom.

I don't think Dunn should be untouchable, but I wouldn't be dealing one of the best offensive players in the game for a crap pitcher (and Wang is an absolute garbage merchant). Moving Dunn for Wang would be like the Casey for Williams deal on steriods.

M2
05-22-2006, 02:16 AM
Power hitter, great. He hits for power, and thats about it. If he hits at all.

Yeah, power sucks. Who ever won anything with power? I mean, Judy singles hitters are clearly the way to go.

OB sucks too. That's not hitting. Everyone knows OB doesn't help a team score runs.

And that's why Dunn's no good at scoring runs or driving them in. I mean, it's not like he leads the team in both categories every season.

Now read the signature below.

Cyclone792
05-22-2006, 02:16 AM
For all the people who dislike Dunn, I would like to ask you two questions:

1) What is Dunn's Batting Average on Balls in Play (BABIP) right now?
2) What do you know about BABIP?

If you dislike Dunn, then seriously, take a stab at both those questions. I'm really curious.

KronoRed
05-22-2006, 02:18 AM
No way, we already have enough yankee slop.

jmcclain19
05-22-2006, 02:20 AM
I wonder sometimes if Mike Schmidt had to hear stuff like this his whole career in Philly from unappreciative Phillies fans.

I just hope that it won't take this guy playing somewhere else for everyone to sit back and realize what they've lost and how it can't be replicated so easily.

Krusty
05-22-2006, 02:25 AM
And if I'm a GM on another team, I will point out other than Dunn's ability to take a walk and swing the long ball there isn't much else.

You try to compare him to someone like Albert Pujols and there is no comparison. Dunn hits home runs when the game isn't on the line. Same goes with driving in runners in scoring position. He gets on base. Heck make him the leadoff hitter once again. But there is no reason his RBI totals should be more than what they are now. And I'll even go further and say his RBI totals should be more than last season for the number of abs he had.

Heck, the way Dunn is going is there much difference between his career and former player, Dave Kingman? Dunn might have better on base percentages but it sure doesn't show up in a higher batting average.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kingmda01.shtml

There are reasons why Pujols and Griffey have had allstar careers. They know how to produce in key situations. And failure to produce in key situations is what keeps Dunn being an allstar year in and year out.

M2
05-22-2006, 02:26 AM
Yeah, I'm looking at a slop pitcher that was 8-5 in 18 starts with a 4.02 ERA for the Yankees in 2005. And to save that was a fluke...well he is 4-1 with a 3.79 ERA so far in 2006. Maybe he doesn't throw 150 strikeouts a season but he keeps the ball in the ballpark and if you're the Reds you are looking for those type of pitchers especially playing in the Great American Pinball Ballpark.

Krusty, over the years you've indulged a yen for lousy pitching and this is just a continuation of that trend. Wang's been hit lucky both this year and last. He can't make anyone miss and it's going to catch up to him.

I can tell you this much. I know plenty of Yankees fans who'd think Wang for Dunn would be a great idea.

M2
05-22-2006, 02:28 AM
I wonder sometimes if Mike Schmidt had to hear stuff like this his whole career in Philly from unappreciative Phillies fans.

Yep. It went on his whole career. There's still Phillies fans who gripe about him despite the fact that he's the best player in team history, the best 3B in history and he basically carried the team to its only championship.

dougdirt
05-22-2006, 02:28 AM
Yeah, power sucks. Who ever won anything with power? I mean, Judy singles hitters are clearly the way to go.

OB sucks too. That's not hitting. Everyone knows OB doesn't help a team score runs.

And that's why Dunn's no good at scoring runs or driving them in. I mean, it's not like he leads the team in both categories every season.

Now read the signature below.

Oh M2, where on earth did I say anything about OB sucking? I believe I didnt. I said he hits for power and thats all he hits for....if he hits. Walking isnt hitting. His on base is completely walk driven. If you needed a hit to win the game, who on the team would you like at the plate? If you say Adam Dunn, then you are a not as smart as I think you actually are. Dont throw out the he might avoid an out arguement, because all that does is leave it up to someone else to either get the job done or not get the job done. As for scoring runs, where did I say anything about Dunn not scoring runs? Of course he is going to score runs, he gets on base a lot for a high scoring team. Of course, there lies the problem, he plays for a high scoring team, yet doesnt drive in what a premiere clean up hitter should, or even come close to. As for the singles comment, no that isnt the way to go. But yes, I would like to see Adam hit the ball rather than swing and miss a million times a year. As for Dunn leading the team in RBI each and every season, the only reason he led the team last year was becuase he played 20-30 more games than Griffey did. You can say what you want, Adam Dunn doesnt produce enough RBI for me as a #3/4 hitter for me to consider him as special as some of you want to make him out to be.

Caveat Emperor
05-22-2006, 02:28 AM
Power hitter, great. He hits for power, and thats about it. If he hits at all.

As for making the deal, i never said I would make it, I said I would think about it.

Hits for high SLG % , Walks for high OBP. Acquires bases and avoids outs: the holy grail of productivity.

Also, just because he enjoys showing off: #1 on the team in Runs Created, #9 in the NL in that particular stat. 45.0 VORP last season, good for #33 in the majors.

The only way I don't laugh at this deal is if Phillip Hughes happens to be handcuffed to Wang when he's put on the plane to Cincinnati. Even then, I'm still quite "Eh..." about it.

M2
05-22-2006, 02:29 AM
Heck, the way Dunn is going is there much difference between his career and former player, Dave Kingman?

Yes and you ought to don a dunce cap for not knowing the difference.

Now read the signature below.

Krusty
05-22-2006, 02:33 AM
Krusty, over the years you've indulged a yen for lousy pitching and this is just a continuation of that trend. Wang's been hit lucky both this year and last. He can't make anyone miss and it's going to catch up to him.

I can tell you this much. I know plenty of Yankees fans who'd think Wang for Dunn would be a great idea.

Okay it doesn't have to be Wang. It could be another pitcher. Bottom line if you can upgrade the starting rotation and improve the outfield defense, why the heck wouldn't you trade Dunn?

I just don't see any improvement in this guy's game.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 02:34 AM
I wonder sometimes if Mike Schmidt had to hear stuff like this his whole career in Philly from unappreciative Phillies fans.

I just hope that it won't take this guy playing somewhere else for everyone to sit back and realize what they've lost and how it can't be replicated so easily.
Remember (of course you don't you're a youngster) when Billy Martin was yelling at Reggie Jackson in the dugout? That was a defensive issue, as in Billy said You can't play defense."

wheels
05-22-2006, 02:35 AM
Krusty, I have to agree with M2 on this one.

You know what Dunn's true value is....

I have a feeling that you're trying to be cheeky. You're yanking my chain....

Right?

westofyou
05-22-2006, 02:36 AM
Okay it doesn't have to be Wang. It could be another pitcher. Bottom line if you can upgrade the starting rotation and improve the outfield defense, why the heck wouldn't you trade Dunn?

I just don't see any improvement in this guy's game.
Of course you don't, you don't look at the stats. You don't compare him to a 25 year old Mike Schmidt, you compare him to 35 year old Dave Kingman.

If you want to improve OF defense, why focus on the least key position on the field?

Caveat Emperor
05-22-2006, 02:36 AM
Heck, the way Dunn is going is there much difference between his career and former player, Dave Kingman?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kingmda01.shtml

Adam Dunn v. Dave Kingman OBP (first 6 years in the majors)

Adam Dunn Dave Kingman
.371 .328
.400 .303
.354 .300
.388 .302
.387 .284
.381 .286

Not much difference, just about a steady .50-.100 difference in OBP from year to year. Boy, walks sure do haunt.

Krusty
05-22-2006, 02:37 AM
Hits for high SLG % , Walks for high OBP. Acquires bases and avoids outs: the holy grail of productivity.

Also, just because he enjoys showing off: #1 on the team in Runs Created, #9 in the NL in that particular stat. 45.0 VORP last season, good for #33 in the majors.

The only way I don't laugh at this deal is if Phillip Hughes happens to be handcuffed to Wang when he's put on the plane to Cincinnati. Even then, I'm still quite "Eh..." about it.

Then make Dunn the friggin leadoff hitter. He isn't getting paid just to get on base. He is paid to drive in runs in the middle of the lineup. WHAT HE HAS FAILED TO DO IS DRIVE IN RUNS WITH THE GAME ON THE LINE.

For Christ's sake, you want to talk about man love for a guy and this site has it for Adam Dunn. The same site that has crucified Rich Aurilia for the last two years only not to realize that he might be the key player to this team's winning success.

Cyclone792
05-22-2006, 02:39 AM
Then make Dunn the friggin leadoff hitter. He isn't getting paid just to get on base. He is paid to drive in runs in the middle of the lineup. WHAT HE HAS FAILED TO DO IS DRIVE IN RUNS WITH THE GAME ON THE LINE.

For Christ's sake, you want to talk about man love for a guy and this site has it for Adam Dunn. The same site that has crucified Rich Aurilia for the last two years only not to realize that he might be the key player to this team's winning success.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

Hey Krusty, those two questions I posed in Post #17 ... I'm still kinda curious what your answers are?

Ron Madden
05-22-2006, 02:40 AM
Oh M2, where on earth did I say anything about OB sucking? I believe I didnt. I said he hits for power and thats all he hits for....if he hits. Walking isnt hitting. His on base is completely walk driven. If you needed a hit to win the game, who on the team would you like at the plate? If you say Adam Dunn, then you are a not as smart as I think you actually are. Dont throw out the he might avoid an out arguement, because all that does is leave it up to someone else to either get the job done or not get the job done. As for scoring runs, where did I say anything about Dunn not scoring runs? Of course he is going to score runs, he gets on base a lot for a high scoring team. Of course, there lies the problem, he plays for a high scoring team, yet doesnt drive in what a premiere clean up hitter should, or even come close to. As for the singles comment, no that isnt the way to go. But yes, I would like to see Adam hit the ball rather than swing and miss a million times a year. As for Dunn leading the team in RBI each and every season, the only reason he led the team last year was becuase he played 20-30 more games than Griffey did. You can say what you want, Adam Dunn doesnt produce enough RBI for me as a #3/4 hitter for me to consider him as special as some of you want to make him out to be.

Adam Dunn is one of the main reasons the Reds are a high scoring team. I think Dunn has hit 5th or 6th more than he has hit 3rd or 4th in the line up .

M2
05-22-2006, 02:40 AM
Oh M2, where on earth did I say anything about OB sucking? I believe I didnt. I said he hits for power and thats all he hits for....if he hits. Walking isnt hitting. His on base is completely walk driven. If you needed a hit to win the game, who on the team would you like at the plate? If you say Adam Dunn, then you are a not as smart as I think you actually are.

Yeah, you just blithely passed over the strongest part of the guy's game, which apparently doesn't count in the odd little construct of your mind.

Walking is part of OB and OB is the most important single thing you can do in the pursuit of scoring runs. Combine it with power and then you've really got something cooking.


Dont throw out the he might avoid an out arguement, because all that does is leave it up to someone else to either get the job done or not get the job done.

Yeah, I'd hate for sensibility to find its way into this discussion.


As for scoring runs, where did I say anything about Dunn not scoring runs? Of course he is going to score runs, he gets on base a lot for a high scoring team. Of course, there lies the problem, he plays for a high scoring team, yet doesnt drive in what a premiere clean up hitter should, or even come close to.

Personally I'd hit Dunn second or third. That's always been take since he was first called up. Let someone else pick up the cheap RBIs behind him. Mind you, if he hits clean up then he's the best guy the Reds have put in that role since Dave Parker.

And the Reds score runs because of Adam Dunn more than he scores runs because of the Reds. High OB guys who hit 40+ HRs a year tend to have that effect on a team.


As for the singles comment, no that isnt the way to go. But yes, I would like to see Adam hit the ball rather than swing and miss a million times a year.

I don't care what you like to watch. I like good players.


As for Dunn leading the team in RBI each and every season, the only reason he led the team last year was becuase he played 20-30 more games than Griffey did. You can say what you want, Adam Dunn doesnt produce enough RBI for me as a #3/4 hitter for me to consider him as special as some of you want to make him out to be.

Oops, sorry he's so durable and that he ranks so highly in the stats that are most closely tied to actual runs scored.

Now read the signature below again because you are complaining about the RBI totals of the Reds player with highest RBI totals of the past two decades.

Outshined_One
05-22-2006, 02:41 AM
I can tell you this much. I know plenty of Yankees fans who'd think Wang for Dunn would be a great idea.

And I know plenty who'd want Homer Bailey thrown in to make it a fair deal. ;)

Wang's got a nice sinker, but his peripherals are mediocre. I don't see anything in his BAA, WHIP, K/BB, or K/9 that makes me think he'll ever become more than a back of the rotation starter. That's not the kind of guy you'd want to trade Dunn for.

pedro
05-22-2006, 02:41 AM
I'm sorry, but the idea that Rich Aurilia is the driving force behind the Reds offense is sort of comical.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 02:42 AM
Then make Dunn the friggin leadoff hitter. He isn't getting paid just to get on base. He is paid to drive in runs in the middle of the lineup. WHAT HE HAS FAILED TO DO IS DRIVE IN RUNS WITH THE GAME ON THE LINE.

For Christ's sake, you want to talk about man love for a guy and this site has it for Adam Dunn. The same site that has crucified Rich Aurilia for the last two years only not to realize that he might be the key player to this team's winning success.
You mean Rich Aurilia with a .750 OPS with RISP ?

Yeah he's a longtime keeper.

Let's talk man love, Reds fans have a unabashed man love of bat on the ball out driven nonsense at the expense of patience and execution, all in the name of the all mighty scrappy .780 hitter with dirt on his knees.

M2
05-22-2006, 02:45 AM
It could be another pitcher. Bottom line if you can upgrade the starting rotation and improve the outfield defense, why the heck wouldn't you trade Dunn?

Because unlike most everyone else on the team, removing Dunn takes a huge chunk out of your runs scored. Dunn's bat allows the team to consider all sorts of moves because you literally can build an offense around him. Plus, I can't begin to care about LF defense with Jr. out in CF.


I just don't see any improvement in this guy's game.

His game's far ahead of your posting.

dougdirt
05-22-2006, 02:47 AM
Not this year he hasnt. As for he is the reason we score so much, fine. Bat him lead off or second. He doesnt drive in runs at the rate he should batting 3rd or 4th in the line up.
Over the last 3 seasons, he actually has more at bats hitting clean up than anywhere in the line up. He has 31 home runs and 75 RBi in 498 at bats. I am sorry, but that is not good enough for me as a clean up hitter. The home runs are good, but his RBIs are seriously lacking.

This year in 50 at bats in the clean up spot, Dunn has 7 RBI and 3 HR. Meaning he has driven in guys not named Adam Dunn one more time than he has driven in guys named Adam Dunn. Not good.
In 67 at bats in the #3 spot, he has 16 RBI and 8HR....meaning he has driven himself in as many times as other guys. Not good.
I am glad he drives himself in as much as he does, but it would be nice to see him drive in other guys too, and he simply doesnt do that, and he doesnt do it better than anyone else in baseball.

M2
05-22-2006, 02:47 AM
The same site that has crucified Rich Aurilia for the last two years only not to realize that he might be the key player to this team's winning success.

The Reds have had winning success?

I must have missed that. Meanwhile Rich Aurilia is .233/.250/.500 w/RISP. Key my ass.

Krusty
05-22-2006, 02:48 AM
Because unlike most everyone else on the team, removing Dunn takes a huge chunk out of your runs scored. Dunn's bat allows the team to consider all sorts of moves because you literally can build an offense around him. Plus, I can't begin to care about LF defense with Jr. out in CF.



His game's far ahead of your posting.

Thanks for the personal attack M2. Make an argument and you take it to another level. Good job. Nice to see how Reds Live is turning into the next Cincinnati.com website.

dougdirt
05-22-2006, 02:51 AM
M2, I am not going to even respond to half of that smart elic crap you replied with. I am going to say, I didnt say a word about scoring runs, I said driving in runs, and he doesnt do enough of it to hit him 3rd or 4th. If he wants to score 100 runs a year and get on base at a .380 clip, great for him and great for the team. But if its going to also mean he is going to lack in driving in runs like a true clean up hitter, then hit him 1st or 2nd and let someone else drive in the runs and Adam Dunn.

M2
05-22-2006, 02:52 AM
Thanks for the personal attack M2. Make an argument and you take it to another level. Good job. Nice to see how Reds Live is turning into the next Cincinnati.com website.

IMO, rehashing the same brain-dead criticisms that have been leveled at Dunn for years is what drags the board down. It's idiotic and we've been over this stuff about ten thousand times.

Nice to see how you're turning into a BF wannabe.

M2
05-22-2006, 02:58 AM
M2, I am not going to even respond to half of that smart elic crap you replied with. I am going to say, I didnt say a word about scoring runs, I said driving in runs, and he doesnt do enough of it to hit him 3rd or 4th.

Hard to respond when you've got such a thin premise to work with.

I don't care about RBIs. I care about scoring. Dunn helps the team score. Period.

And he still drives in more runs than any Reds player of the past two decades. Yet somehow that's not good enough for you to hit him #3 or #4. Welcome to complete absurdity.


If he wants to score 100 runs a year and get on base at a .380 clip, great for him and great for the team. But if its going to also mean he is going to lack in driving in runs like a true clean up hitter, then hit him 1st or 2nd and let someone else drive in the runs and Adam Dunn.

We must be watching a different game. Because the MLB I watch does not abound with guys who drive in 100 runs every season. Maybe I need to invest in a Play Station console to understand this better.

Krusty
05-22-2006, 02:58 AM
IMO, rehashing the same brain-dead criticisms that have been leveled at Dunn for years is what drags the board down. It's idiotic and we've been over this stuff about ten thousand times.

Nice to see how you're turning into a BF wannabe.

This is my final say on the subject. Obviously this thread is going downhill quickly. If you can't see the flaws in Dunn's game....fine. I just put out a trade idea which is probably a bad one but the purpose being if the Reds moved Dunn which would improve the starting pitching and outfield defense, would the team be better off.

I haven't done much posting lately because people at this site take it personally and start slinging their arrows. I don't need it. You want to debate me on the subject...great. I never said I was right. But when you start making it personal.....there are other things to do than type barbs at each other.

SteelSD
05-22-2006, 03:00 AM
Oh M2, where on earth did I say anything about OB sucking? I believe I didnt. I said he hits for power and thats all he hits for....if he hits. Walking isnt hitting.

Not making Outs is hitting. Acquiring bases is hitting.

There is no distinction between hitters who avoid Outs and Acquire bases regardless of how they do it. When a hitter walks to the plate with a bat in his hand, if he acquires a Walk it's a result of his hitting prowess. Ditto for base hits and bases acquired.


His on base is completely walk driven. If you needed a hit to win the game, who on the team would you like at the plate? If you say Adam Dunn, then you are a not as smart as I think you actually are. Dont throw out the he might avoid an out arguement, because all that does is leave it up to someone else to either get the job done or not get the job done.

That demonstrates a lack of understanding as to how Runs are actually scored.


As for scoring runs, where did I say anything about Dunn not scoring runs? Of course he is going to score runs, he gets on base a lot for a high scoring team. Of course, there lies the problem, he plays for a high scoring team, yet doesnt drive in what a premiere clean up hitter should, or even come close to. As for the singles comment, no that isnt the way to go. But yes, I would like to see Adam hit the ball rather than swing and miss a million times a year.

A good testament as to why no one should trust your K-driven minor league hitter analysis. And now you've demonstrated that you don't really understand how bad RBI is at guaging a player's value.


As for Dunn leading the team in RBI each and every season, the only reason he led the team last year was becuase he played 20-30 more games than Griffey did. You can say what you want, Adam Dunn doesnt produce enough RBI for me as a #3/4 hitter for me to consider him as special as some of you want to make him out to be.

Yeah, all he does is produce more Runs for his team than any other player on that team. 33.9 Runs Created so far for 2006 (Reds rank- 1st). 116.9 RC and 124.9 RC in 2005 and 2004 respectively (Reds rank- 1st and 1st).

But hey, let's take a look at the NL players who posted 100 or more RBI in 2004 and 2005 who also produced more RBI than did Adam Dunn over those two seasons:

Albert Pujols
Bobby Abreu
Jeff Kent
Miguel Cabrera

That's it. Those are the four. Now lets funnel down to the guys on that list who scored more Runs than did Adam Dunn during that timeframe...

Albert Pujols
Bobby Abreau

Gee...short list.

At some point, you need to understand what a great hitter actually looks like.

Caveat Emperor
05-22-2006, 03:01 AM
We must be watching a different game. Because the MLB I watch does not abound with guys who drive in 100 runs every season. Maybe I need to invest in a Play Station console to understand this better.

I'd reccomend this game instead (although I hear Adam Dunn absolutely sucks at it ;) ):

http://www.tomheroes.com/images/NESR.B.I%20Baseballbox.jpg

Patrick Bateman
05-22-2006, 03:05 AM
Wang's stats last year:


ERA: 4.02
DERA: 4.39
K/9: 3.64
BB/9: 2.48
HR/9: 0.70
K:BB: 1.47

Wang looks awfully mediocre, and when put in front of our defense you would likely see a rise in his ERA closer towards 5. With lots of balls in play Wang's going to rely on the fielding and that wont be pretty.

Dunn's value has been stated over and over. He's one of the top 10-15 hitters in the NL. He's a player you build an offense around. He may not be improving at a high degree, but he's already a pretty darn good ballplayer and you can't expect everyone to improve. Nobody here really knows what his work ethic is like, but does it really matter if he puts up the numbers? Maybe he could be better, maybe he can't. We don't know, but what we do know is that he is a top hitter regardless.

You simply don't trade a player of Dunn's calibre for an average (at best) ML pitcher. This trade would be historically bad IMO.

M2
05-22-2006, 03:07 AM
This is my final say on the subject.

I can only hope so.


Obviously this thread is going downhill quickly.

Downhill from Dunn for Wang? That's nearly impossible.


If you can't see the flaws in Dunn's game....fine.

Sure, he's got his flaws. Everyone does. Apparently you've lost sight of his strengths.


I haven't done much posting lately because people at this site take it personally and start slinging their arrows. I don't need it. You want to debate me on the subject...great. I never said I was right. But when you start making it personal.....there are other things to do than type barbs at each other.

There's also other things to do than read the same mindless criticism of Dunn's game a zillion times over. It's lunacy and I see no reason to treat it as anything other than that.

Caveat Emperor
05-22-2006, 03:14 AM
Reds fans, in general, break down into two camps:

1. Those who appreciate Dunn for what he is
2. Those who hate Dunn for what he isn't

Neither side is ever going to agree with the other, there's really no point in continuing threads like these or, if they are being continued, getting personal with one another.

Let's not make RedsZone like this. There are already plenty of places (http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-reds&msg=26049.1&ctx=0) where you can get mindless knifing back on forth on the subject of all things Adam Dunn.

dougdirt
05-22-2006, 03:16 AM
This is my last post ever on here about Adam Dunn becuase its obvious that you cant say a single thing bad about Adam Dunn or you say every facet of his game sucks.


Hard to respond when you've got such a thin premise to work with.

I don't care about RBIs. I care about scoring. Dunn helps the team score. Period.


Great, I care about RBI's from my clean up hitter, and Dunn doesnt do it for me.
Adam Dunn averages .409 RBI per at bat with risp this year....that ranks behind Kearns(.513), Encarnacion (.545), Phillips (.643) and Griffey (.652). Adam Dunn scores lots and lots of runs. So does a lead off hitter for most teams. Hit Dunn first. He cant drive in runs.



And he still drives in more runs than any Reds player of the past two decades. Yet somehow that's not good enough for you to hit him #3 or #4. Welcome to complete absurdity.

Actually he sits 4th and 5th behind Dave Parker in 1986, Vaughn in 99 and Griffey in 2000. They had 116 and 118 and 118.
Just becuase the Reds havent had other guys that drive in runs doesnt mean Adam Dunn is something special as far as driving in runs goes. He is batting in the wrong spot in the line up.



We must be watching a different game. Because the MLB I watch does not abound with guys who drive in 100 runs every season. Maybe I need to invest in a Play Station console to understand this better.

Well 27 guys did it last year.
Lets see how many of those guys were repeat 100 RBI guys. 19 of the 27. Two of the guys who didnt, were in their first full seasons. So it seems that guys actually do drive in 100 runs "every season".

M2
05-22-2006, 03:31 AM
This is my last post ever on here about Adam Dunn becuase its obvious that you cant say a single thing bad about Adam Dunn or you say every facet of his game sucks.

No, but you can't throw out a bunch of whoppers and expect people not to call you on it.


He cant drive in runs.

Of course he can't, that's why he drives in 100 runs every season and is on pace to do it again this season.


Actually he sits 4th and 5th behind Dave Parker in 1986, Vaughn in 99 and Griffey in 2000. They had 116 and 118 and 118.

That's for single seasons. Neither Vaughn nor Jr. were able to top 100 RBIs again, which is the point. Dunn does it every year. Parker's the last Reds player to do it back-to-back. George Foster is the last Reds player to do it back-to-back-to-back. Dunn's the most consistent RBI man the Reds have had in ages and you're grousing about his RBIs. It's patently absurd.


Just becuase the Reds havent had other guys that drive in runs doesnt mean Adam Dunn is something special as far as driving in runs goes. He is batting in the wrong spot in the line up.

Like I said, I think his OB makes him more effective at higher slots, but you're never going to find me wailing about an annual 100-RBI man in the cleanup slot.

Also, as has been demonstrated, Dunn is something special as far as driving in runs goes. Other players don't top the 100 mark on a regular basis. The Reds are just par for the course when it comes to that.


Well 27 guys did it last year.
Lets see how many of those guys were repeat 100 RBI guys. 19 of the 27. Two of the guys who didnt, were in their first full seasons. So it seems that guys actually do drive in 100 runs "every season".

Yeah, there's about 20 guys on whom you can place a consistent 100 RBI bet and Dunn's one of them. Seeing that there's 30 teams out there, I'm glad the Reds have an RBI man like Dunn in the fold.

pedro
05-22-2006, 03:35 AM
Well 27 guys did it last year.
Lets see how many of those guys were repeat 100 RBI guys. 19 of the 27. Two of the guys who didnt, were in their first full seasons. So it seems that guys actually do drive in 100 runs "every season".


That's not even one on every team and yet you want to chastise the one that the Reds do have.

I just think it's silly that all the Dunn bashers want to use a 3 week slump to prop up their 3 year ongoing losing argument about Dunn's merits despite the fact that Dunn has been producing consistently during that entire time.

Is he the greatest player ever? Helll no. But he's still one of the top 25 offensive players in the game right now, RISPY or not. If that's not good enough for all of you there isn't much left to say.

pedro
05-22-2006, 03:44 AM
As for whether or not to trade Dunn for pitching all I have to say is that no one should be considered untouchable. If the right deal came along the Reds have to be willing to trade anyone. TMBS, Wang is not the right target for a player such as Dunn.

MattyHo4Life
05-22-2006, 04:33 AM
275 at 6'6 and that's 25 pounds over?

The Reds considered Hancock overweight when he was 224 (I think) at 6'3.

RedsBaron
05-22-2006, 08:15 AM
Replace Wang with Milt Pappas and Crosley with GAB and it's 40 years ago.
I was thinking similar thoughts, but Pappas was an established quality pitcher, and Dunn is four years younger than Frank Robinson. This proposed trade may very well be worse than the Robby for Pappas & friends trade 40 years ago.

TC81190
05-22-2006, 09:57 AM
Other than Dunn hitting home runs, what makes his game stand out that he is an untouchable? Edwin Encarncion and Brandon Phillips have more RBIs and less than half of the home runs Dunn has. Kearns is one RBI less than Dunn and his home run totals is way less than Dunn.

Like I said, Dunn's glove is made of stone and his batting average with RISP is horrific. Just take a look at this:

QFT


Power hitter, great. He hits for power, and thats about it. If he hits at all.


Replace Wang with Milt Pappas and Crosley with GAB and it's 40 years ago.

Dunn is HARDLY Frank Robsinson.


I don't think Dunn should be untouchable, but I wouldn't be dealing one of the best offensive players in the game for a crap pitcher

I don't know about best offensive player, but yeah.


And if I'm a GM on another team, I will point out other than Dunn's ability to take a walk and swing the long ball there isn't much else.

You try to compare him to someone like Albert Pujols and there is no comparison. Dunn hits home runs when the game isn't on the line. Same goes with driving in runners in scoring position. He gets on base. Heck make him the leadoff hitter once again. But there is no reason his RBI totals should be more than what they are now. And I'll even go further and say his RBI totals should be more than last season for the number of abs he had.

Heck, the way Dunn is going is there much difference between his career and former player, Dave Kingman? Dunn might have better on base percentages but it sure doesn't show up in a higher batting average.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kingmda01.shtml

There are reasons why Pujols and Griffey have had allstar careers. They know how to produce in key situations. And failure to produce in key situations is what keeps Dunn being an allstar year in and year out.

STOP MAKING SENSE.


I wonder sometimes if Mike Schmidt had to hear stuff like this his whole career in Philly from unappreciative Phillies fans.

Dunn is HARDLY Mike Schimdt either.


Then make Dunn the friggin leadoff hitter. He isn't getting paid just to get on base. He is paid to drive in runs in the middle of the lineup. WHAT HE HAS FAILED TO DO IS DRIVE IN RUNS WITH THE GAME ON THE LINE.

For Christ's sake, you want to talk about man love for a guy and this site has it for Adam Dunn. The same site that has crucified Rich Aurilia for the last two years only not to realize that he might be the key player to this team's winning success.

:clap:


Walking is part of OB and OB is the most important single thing you can do in the pursuit of scoring runs.

Hits > Walks.


Yeah, I'd hate for sensibility to find its way into this discussion.


His game's far ahead of your posting.


Condescending FTW.


IMO, rehashing the same brain-dead criticisms that have been leveled at Dunn for years is what drags the board down. It's idiotic and we've been over this stuff about ten thousand times.

Nice to see how you're turning into a BF wannabe.

Nevermind the fact that it's vaild or true.

I like how opinion instantly makes you a bad poster.


I don't care about RBIs. I care about scoring. Dunn helps the team score. Period.


So, what would you rather have? Scientific formulas that really have no direct correlation to the game?


Not making Outs is hitting. Acquiring hits is hitting.

Fixed.

OnBaseMachine
05-22-2006, 10:28 AM
Adam Dunn accomplishments

-9th on all-time Reds home run list
-Only player in Reds history to have consecutive seasons of 100 runs/100 RBI/100 walks and on pace to do it again this year
-11th most walks in team history
-48th most career doubles in team history
-3rd highest OBP in team history
-3rd highest SLG in team history
-2nd highest OPS in team history
-24th most XBH in team history
-40th most career runs scored in team history
-41st most RBI in team history

One of just 24 active major leaguers(prior to 2006) with a career OPS over .900.

His 14.0 AB/HR ratio is one of the highest in major league history, and I believe he only trails Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols, and Jim Thome for the best AB/HR ratio by active players.

On pace for over 620 career home runs and near 2000 walks.

As a Reds fan, I find it ridiculous (and embarrassing) that we have to continue to defend Adam Dunn at this point in his career. Reds fans used to have the most knowledgable fans in the game. Sadly that is no longer true.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 10:29 AM
Dunn is HARDLY Mike Schimdt either.As a hitter at the age of 26 he's a hell of a lot more like Schmidt than anybody here would like to admit.

And if some of the people who have posted here for 6 years ever cared to learn about stats then they'd see that.

Heath
05-22-2006, 10:43 AM
Adam Dunn is a nice target, because he's the superstar of this ball club. He's also a physically big individual. He's an "easy target".

The day he gets traded will be a dark day in the franchise history right up there with Frank Robinson & 101 losses in '82.

So, techinically speaking, if Dunn is a top 10-15 player, shouldn't we be able to land a top 10-15 pitcher?

Heath
05-22-2006, 10:49 AM
As a hitter at the age of 26 he's a hell of a lot more like Schmidt than anybody here would like to admit.

And if some of the people who have posted here for 6 years ever cared to learn about stats then they'd see that.

If Adam Dunn becomes Mike Schmidt (he of the steel glove at 3rd and the low BA and quiet demeanor) I think I could live with that.

BTW - Dunn career OBP -.383 - Schmidt's Career OBP- .380

But, stats don't really matter, do they?

OnBaseMachine
05-22-2006, 10:50 AM
Dunn is HARDLY Mike Schimdt either.

Adam Dunn-Career .247/.383/.521

Mike Schmidt-Career .267/.380/.527

According to the Baseball Cube, Schmidt was a .248 hitter through age 26 with a .366 OBP and a .491 SLG. He also had just 93 home runs.

Adam Dunn is a .247 hitter with a .383 OBP and .521 SLG. Dunn currently has 173 career home runs and will probably have over 200 by the end his 26 year old season.

Adam Dunn is a much better player at this point in his career to what Mike Schmidt was.

But I still say the best comparison for Adam Dunn is Harmon Killebrew.

b_combs23
05-22-2006, 10:52 AM
There is just something about Adam Dunn. I used to love the guy but I think I have had enough. Statistics aside, if you really watch every game, it is a continuous strikeout with a man on third with one out or second with no one out. It is almost funny to watch it. I know his stats are bad this year, and they were good last year, but just from watching the games this guys gotta go, especially if his value is still up enough to get something good in return. And Adam Dunn is not Mike Schmidt.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 10:52 AM
But, stats don't really matter, do they?

Only if you want to pepper that with the usual "He's not getting paid to do that..." nonsense, then no they don't matter at all.

Only opinions matter then.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 10:53 AM
if you really watch every game,

Yeah I never watch any games, none at all.


And Adam Dunn is not Mike Schmidt.

Did you ever see Mike Schmidt play in the 70's?

Heath
05-22-2006, 10:56 AM
And Adam Dunn is not Mike Schmidt.

Yep he's not. Adam's taller. Plus, Schmidt was a Phillie pick-up, a hard-nosed kid in the Pete Rose model from Dayton that Howsam glossed over. Come to think of it, I don't even think Howsam would have taken Dunn either. Howsam would have loved Lopez, Encarnacion, and Kearns no doubt. Those are Rickey-type players.

Is my post not making sense? Well, then it would fit right in to the other 4 pages of this thread very well then.

Heath
05-22-2006, 10:58 AM
Adam Dunn-Career .247/.383/.521

Mike Schmidt-Career .267/.380/.527

According to the Baseball Cube, Schmidt was a .248 hitter through age 26 with a .366 OBP and a .491 SLG. He also had just 93 home runs.

Adam Dunn is a .247 hitter with a .383 OBP and .521 SLG. Dunn currently has 173 career home runs and will probably have over 200 by the end his 26 year old season.

Adam Dunn is a much better player at this point in his career to what Mike Schmidt was.

But I still say the best comparison for Adam Dunn is Harmon Killebrew.

The problem is that folks see the Mike Schmidt past and whole and not see the future projections that Dunn can and will do.

I'd take Harmon Killebrew. Even Roy Sievers and Mickey Vernon are intriging.

registerthis
05-22-2006, 11:09 AM
Statistics aside,

Statistics aside, I'm the best baseball player ever.

Heath
05-22-2006, 11:11 AM
Statistics aside, I'm the best baseball player ever.

Quit pretending to be Jim Coombs. ;)

registerthis
05-22-2006, 11:12 AM
Quit pretending to be Jim Coombs. ;)

Jim Coombs couldn't hold my jockstrap.

Statistics aside, of course.

Heath
05-22-2006, 11:14 AM
Jim Coombs couldn't hold my jockstrap.

Statistics aside, of course.

Let's see that strat-o-matic card then :D

Puffy
05-22-2006, 11:46 AM
The same site that has crucified Rich Aurilia for the last two years only not to realize that he might be the key player to this team's winning success.

That actually made me laugh out loud here at work.

Too funny.

flyer85
05-22-2006, 11:48 AM
Adam Dunn is a much better player at this point in his career to what Mike Schmidt was.change "player" to "hitter".

westofyou
05-22-2006, 11:54 AM
change "player" to "hitter".
Exactly, no one here is claiming Dunn is a great fielder or that he is "Clutch" (this year) nor does the world think he equals HOF player Mike Schmidt as he stands right now, the comparison is in the age bracket and the players numbers vs. his peers, that's where the Schmidt, Jackson and Killebrew comparisons are seen.

Seriously in this day and age to have a "baseball fan" describe Dunn as Dave Kingman is ridiculous, some teams like the Red Sox and Yankees talk about this stuff, BP and Rob Neyer have made this mainstream and yet some folks still run through the summer in a Baseball Luddite Bubble.

Plus to have a 3 week slump be the source for the annual May Bashing is amusing seeing how the man was a stud in April. And speaking of RBI's Dunn led all of MLB in RBI's last July which was the Reds best month.. yet the RBI hungry masses never note that.

Puffy
05-22-2006, 11:55 AM
But I still say the best comparison for Adam Dunn is Harmon Killebrew.

I still think its McGwire.

Heath
05-22-2006, 11:56 AM
I still think its McGwire.

sans andro.

flyer85
05-22-2006, 11:57 AM
Dunn to Schmidt is a valid offensive comparision. But "player" has defensive connotations as well and part of the greatness of Schmidt was his glovework.

BTW, trading him for a wang (bad injury history combined with inability to miss bats) is a bad idea.

OnBaseMachine
05-22-2006, 12:14 PM
Yeah, I should have said hitter because that's what I meant. I think we all can agree that Dunn is no where near the fielder than Schmidt was.

Highlifeman21
05-22-2006, 12:15 PM
And if I'm a GM on another team, I will point out other than Dunn's ability to take a walk and swing the long ball there isn't much else.

You try to compare him to someone like Albert Pujols and there is no comparison. Dunn hits home runs when the game isn't on the line. Same goes with driving in runners in scoring position. He gets on base. Heck make him the leadoff hitter once again. But there is no reason his RBI totals should be more than what they are now. And I'll even go further and say his RBI totals should be more than last season for the number of abs he had.

Heck, the way Dunn is going is there much difference between his career and former player, Dave Kingman? Dunn might have better on base percentages but it sure doesn't show up in a higher batting average.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kingmda01.shtml

There are reasons why Pujols and Griffey have had allstar careers. They know how to produce in key situations. And failure to produce in key situations is what keeps Dunn being an allstar year in and year out.

Bob Boone would be proud.

Why is it that everyone against Dunn likes to compare him to Kingman?

GridironGrace
05-22-2006, 12:17 PM
I would NOT trade Dunn for ANY player, that ANY Team would give us for him.

I mean, if Houston called tomorrow wanted to give us Oswalt for Dunner............id think about it, but it wont happen.

edabbs44
05-22-2006, 12:22 PM
Adam Dunn-Career .247/.383/.521

Mike Schmidt-Career .267/.380/.527

According to the Baseball Cube, Schmidt was a .248 hitter through age 26 with a .366 OBP and a .491 SLG. He also had just 93 home runs.

Adam Dunn is a .247 hitter with a .383 OBP and .521 SLG. Dunn currently has 173 career home runs and will probably have over 200 by the end his 26 year old season.

Adam Dunn is a much better player at this point in his career to what Mike Schmidt was.

But I still say the best comparison for Adam Dunn is Harmon Killebrew.
Just 93 HRs? What's the at bat difference on these 2 in the years you mention? Not arguing your point b/c I think there are similarities here. Just want to point out Schmidt probably had around 1000 less at bats.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 12:30 PM
Just want to point out Schmidt probably had around 1000 less at bats.Through age 25 Schmidt had 1843 PA's and Dunn 2783.

That I why I prefer rate stats.

Schmidt

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
TOTALS 465 1531 246 379 73 10 93 6.07 266 274 469 60 26 .248 .491 .366 .857
LG AVERAGE 1546 195 407 65 11 33 2.15 180 162 213 29 14 .263 .384 .334 .718
POS AVERAGE 1541 196 397 67 9 41 2.64 190 181 239 16 11 .257 .392 .338 .730
Dunn

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
TOTALS 661 2271 420 564 127 6 158 6.96 374 462 733 41 16 .248 .518 .383 .901
LG AVERAGE 2267 313 608 123 13 73 3.23 298 231 418 38 17 .268 .431 .340 .771
POS AVERAGE 2295 347 627 132 13 97 4.23 351 292 465 36 16 .273 .469 .359 .828

Johnny Footstool
05-22-2006, 01:03 PM
If you want to speak badly about Dunn, you'd better bring your "A" game or be prepared to absorb some damage.

Krusty
05-22-2006, 01:06 PM
For a guy who bats in the middle of the lineup, is there any stat more important than runners in scoring position?

westofyou
05-22-2006, 01:11 PM
For a guy who bats in the middle of the lineup, is there any stat more important than runners in scoring position?

Last year

.248/.468/.574

This year he has 45 at bats.

Small Sample Size

Jury still out.

BTW

RISP for Reggie Jackson 1971

.198 .299 .306

Mike Schmidt 1978

.219 .375 .438

flyer85
05-22-2006, 01:14 PM
For a guy who bats in the middle of the lineup, is there any stat more important than runners in scoring position?I guess the answer must be yes because in 2005 Casey hit .286 RISP and yet only had 58 RBI while Dunn hit .248 RISP and had 102 RBI while their total # of ABs with runners is scoring position were 126 and 129.

Krusty
05-22-2006, 01:17 PM
Last year

.248/.468/.574

This year he has 45 at bats.

Small Sample Size

Jury still out.

BTW

RISP for Reggie Jackson 1971

.198 .299 .306

Mike Schmidt 1978

.219 .375 .438

We can draw all the comparisons we want. Bottom line is the Reds are paying Dunn to be a RBI guy. Getting on base is great but we aren't paying him to be a leadoff hitter. How many times have we seen runners in scoring position and he fails to get them in? When you have Freel, Lopez and Griffey ahead of you in that lineup, there is no excuse for not driving them in.

As for the Wang trade, I admit it was a bad idea but the theory is would you trade Dunn for a starter?

Krusty
05-22-2006, 01:21 PM
I guess the answer must be yes because in 2005 Casey hit .286 RISP and yet only had 58 RBI while Dunn hit .248 RISP and had 102 RBI while their total # of ABs with runners is scoring position were 126 and 129.

And the biggest criticism against Casey was he didn't produce enough at a power position. And where is he today?

As for Dunn, what would his numbers be if he was closer to .300 with RISP?

All I am saying I don't see any improvement in Dunn's game that shows me he will be an allstar for the next 10 years.

flyer85
05-22-2006, 01:24 PM
And the biggest criticism against Casey was he didn't produce enough at a power position. And where is he today?Hmmm ... maybe that's because power(slg%) is far more important than average with runners on base. Just a thought.

westofyou
05-22-2006, 01:24 PM
We can draw all the comparisons we want. Bottom line is the Reds are paying Dunn to be a RBI guy. Getting on base is great but we aren't paying him to be a leadoff hitter.Getting paid in baseball does not require predefined reasons why payment is being received, the goal is to create runs and avoid outs when at bat and create outs when in the field.

KoryMac5
05-22-2006, 01:26 PM
It wasn't just the outfield D that cost us in Detroit it was the infield defense as well. If you are going to make a trade and Dunn is the center piece of that trade you better get more than a third or fourth starter for him. Wang is a three or four at best.

big boy
05-22-2006, 01:45 PM
maybe that's because power(slg%) is far more important than average with runners on base.

It is important. Simply stated, if ba with risp was improved, rbi total would go up.

pedro
05-22-2006, 01:47 PM
It is important. Simply stated, if ba with risp was improved, rbi total would go up.


Only if his slugging percentage stayed constant.

flyer85
05-22-2006, 01:49 PM
Only if his slugging percentage stayed constant.Hey, someone gets it. Others must be in need of a re-dorkulation.

edabbs44
05-22-2006, 01:52 PM
It wasn't just the outfield D that cost us in Detroit it was the infield defense as well. If you are going to make a trade and Dunn is the center piece of that trade you better get more than a third or fourth starter for him. Wang is a three or four at best.
You know what cost us in Detroit (esp yesterday)...hitting. Plain and simple. There were so many ABs by so many players where they did not get the job done it was crazy. People not moving the runner over, people not scoring the runner from 3rd with less than 2 outs. Yesterday's performance was abysmal in those situations.

Mario-Rijo
05-22-2006, 02:00 PM
I'll start bye saying this, I'm not an advocate for dealing Dunn for anyone. Now do I feel there are guys who are worth a whole lot more than Dunn? Sure I think there are a whole lot of guys who I could take and be more successful with presently.

But when you have a young guy whom you drafted & developed with talent, you want to see the fruits of your labor? Especially when that guy is one of the most rarest of species, a LH pure power hitter. Quick think of another LH power hitter 27 or under, time yourself on how long it takes you to figure It out. I know that no one here will disagree with this. If he does get to where we think he can with the bat he's golden, assuming he improves some defensively. However we are talking about a guy who is 27 and who does have over 2400 career AB's already.

I have seen progress over the years from Adam in all aspects of his game, but I have also witnessed him regress this year. We shall see but I would think that someone needs to tell him to figure it out already.

ochre
05-22-2006, 02:01 PM
Wow. Another Dunn thread.