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MartyFan
05-23-2006, 10:58 PM
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060524/capt.bb1fbb3435d34bac835cb094156335af.brewers_reds _baseball_csb101.jpg

Hopefully this shows up...This is inspiring to me...Junior jumping to catch a ball on the run over his shoulder...after what he has been through, he is HEART!


And on't discount this one either!


http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060523/capt.5641beec87be42f3ba78b57505739920.brewers_reds _baseball_csb111.jpg

reds44
05-23-2006, 11:01 PM
162 Games, All Heart!

fisch11
05-23-2006, 11:12 PM
Plays the game how it's supposed to be played. Even with his recent injury history I still love to see him lay out and sacrifice his body (I know you all cringe.) Many people favor Freel and Denorfia in CF in the near future, which we won't get into that....but you can't replace his bat, especially in these clutch at bats that he has been rising up to. Gotta love the Kid.

redsfan30
05-23-2006, 11:19 PM
He is truely one of the good ones.

jimbo
05-23-2006, 11:20 PM
Great pics MartyFan.....thanks for posting them. After he made that play tonight, my first thought was that I'm glad we weren't playing in Philly. Looked like a carbon copy of the play where Rowand broke his nose.

Love to see Junior proving his critics wrong once again.

redsfan30
05-23-2006, 11:21 PM
Plays the game how it's supposed to be played. Even with his recent injury history I still love to see him lay out and sacrifice his body (I know you all cringe.) Many people favor Freel and Denorfia in CF in the near future, which we won't get into that....but you can't replace his bat, especially in these clutch at bats that he has been rising up to. Gotta love the Kid.
Nobody is saying take him out of the lineup. They're saying move him to left and put Dunn at first.

Super_Barry11
05-23-2006, 11:23 PM
"More heart than Hallmark on Valentine's Day" :thumbup:

jimbo
05-23-2006, 11:23 PM
Nobody is saying take him out of the lineup. They're saying move him to left and put Dunn at first.

That takes Aurilia's bat out of the lineup. Not sure I am willing to back that up.

edabbs44
05-23-2006, 11:26 PM
That takes Aurilia's bat out of the lineup. Not sure I am willing to back that up.
I've seen it too many times. Jr looking great and then destroys one of his legs. But we've all been through this argument before, so I'll give up for now.

Ltlabner
05-23-2006, 11:28 PM
I'll prob regret bringing this up, and perhaps it's already been discussed to death, but if Dunn, JR or anybody else is moved to first what happens to the Aurlia/Hattiburg platoon? While they aren't superstars, they provide consistant hitting, timely hitting to the lineup. They both know how to work an AB and make the pitcher burn up pitches.

If you put someone else at first, you can still platoon with Aurlia and make Hattiburg your pitch hitter type, but again you take two consistant contact hitters out of the line up on a daily basis. To get them in you have to take Dunn, Philips, EE or Lopez out of the line up.

Just my $.02.

KronoRed
05-23-2006, 11:29 PM
That takes Aurilia's bat out of the lineup. Not sure I am willing to back that up.
Makes Aurilia a sub, I think he does better like that.

Improves the D tremendously.

jimbo
05-23-2006, 11:30 PM
I've seen it too many times. Jr looking great and then destroys one of his legs. But we've all been through this argument before, so I'll give up for now.

I just can't buy the idea that Junior playing left is any less risky than playing center. He may have a little less ground to cover but he is still using his legs in the same fashion. If anything, I'd rather see him moved to first.....only not during mid-season.

For now, let's just have a little faith.

edabbs44
05-23-2006, 11:32 PM
I just can't buy the idea that Junior playing left is any less risky than playing center. He may have a little less ground to cover but he is still using his legs in the same fashion. If anything, I'd rather see him moved to first.....only not during mid-season.

For now, let's just have a little faith.
He won't have to run for as many balls as well as having less ground to cover. That's my thought process. And faith went out the window a few years ago. For now I am enjoying the ride, as always. But I cringe every time the ball is hit in the gap.

TeamBoone
05-24-2006, 12:26 AM
Great pics MartyFan.....thanks for posting them. After he made that play tonight, my first thought was that I'm glad we weren't playing in Philly. Looked like a carbon copy of the play where Rowand broke his nose.

Love to see Junior proving his critics wrong once again.

IIRC, Rowand ran into the BP fence. It was one of those Cyclone type fences.

jimbo
05-24-2006, 12:34 AM
IIRC, Rowand ran into the BP fence. It was one of those Cyclone type fences.

Yeah, you're correct. I just saw the similarity in that they both went into the fence face first.

RadfordVA
05-24-2006, 04:21 AM
Great post on the pics. I know a lot of people on here like to bash Griffey on here for his "shortcomings" but nice to see him get credit for some of the positives he brings. Im amazed he doesnt get more credit for continously coming back from injury instead he gets blame for getting injured. Im sure he likes rehabbing:) Anyway did anyone else see the brewers telecast and the pregame int. with fielder and griff? Good stuff about how Prince use to go over to Juniors house and play nba jam and how griffey had the makers customize it and put him into the game. And by the way could someone tell Ramirez to wear his pants down a little bit before he strangles himself with his belt. I thought ny grandfather was bad.:)

Ron Madden
05-24-2006, 04:57 AM
RedsZone has more KGJ fans than any other mesage board on the internet.

Very few-if any long time members of this board bash JR.

We all love and respect KGJ. Some of us feel it would help both KGJ and the Cincinnati Reds if he moved to LF.

Has Nothing to do with disrespect or player hateing.

buckeyenut
05-24-2006, 07:11 AM
I am just amazed this guy keeps doing this. He should be walking on eggshells out there in the OF.

At this point, he has me starting to second guess the numbers, even though I know better than to do that.

MrCinatit
05-24-2006, 08:06 AM
I honestly believe that in the end, his name will go right beside the other true greats such as Mays, Aaron, and Mantle. He is one of the pure, simple greats of the game.
I do hope, however, he does decide to get out of center to further his career. I am sure Junior hears the critics, and does want to prove them wrong - but sometimes eating crow is for the best.

dabvu2498
05-24-2006, 09:06 AM
I honestly believe that in the end, his name will go right beside the other true greats such as Mays, Aaron, and Mantle. He is one of the pure, simple greats of the game.
I do hope, however, he does decide to get out of center to further his career. I am sure Junior hears the critics, and does want to prove them wrong - but sometimes eating crow is for the best.

He'd better get a ring if he wants to be compared with the likes of them.

Phhhl
05-24-2006, 09:31 AM
He'd better get a ring if he wants to be compared with the likes of them.

I don't think that does anything for his legacy if he just piggy backs some big market team as a dh or pinch hitter. It would do far more for his legend to help the Reds win one of those.

But, Jr. doesn't HAVE to have it. Teddy Ballgame never won a world series.

I love Jr. and have really enjoyed the way he has played since coming off the dl, both in the of and at the plate. He has shown a flair for the dramatic, and the team seems to have caught a second wind as a result. However, I am in the same boat with those that believe he is very near the point in his career when he needs to give up centerfield. Even with the great catches Monday night, there were two balls dropping in for hits that a team needs it's centerfielder to catch. The Reds defense is bad to begin with, so we need to start shoring up wherever we possibly can.

Love Jr. Would love him in lf or at 1b just the same. Nothing could ever tarnish his greatness.

billy117
05-24-2006, 10:33 AM
He won't have to run for as many balls as well as having less ground to cover. That's my thought process. And faith went out the window a few years ago. For now I am enjoying the ride, as always. But I cringe every time the ball is hit in the gap.

i understand the argument for moving him to left to get more speed in center, but i don't really think that it'll keep him from injury, eric davis still got injured in LF

redsmetz
05-24-2006, 10:57 AM
My son's algebra teacher is from Milwaukee so they've been needling him about the games. He wrote the number 7 on the board and my son said, well that's not even half the number of runs the Reds scored, and another kid chimed in and its greater than the number the Brewers scored. I showed him the picture of Griffey's leaping catch (a great photo) so my son said he was going to make that the teacher's background picture before he comes in the room. I wonder if he'll be jugged today??? :eek:

dabvu2498
05-24-2006, 11:53 AM
Teddy Ballgame never won a world series.

Jr. is good, but no Teddy Ballgame.

lollipopcurve
05-24-2006, 11:57 AM
Jr. is good, but no Teddy Ballgame.

Williams didn't play good defense. Williams may have the edge hitter vs. hitter, but when you factor in the other 50% of the game, defense, Junior leaves him in the dust IMO.

Johnny Footstool
05-24-2006, 12:13 PM
That takes Aurilia's bat out of the lineup. Not sure I am willing to back that up.

You're worried about Aurilia's bat not being in the lineup? Seriously?

TeamBoone
05-24-2006, 12:15 PM
He'd better get a ring if he wants to be compared with the likes of them.

I don't understand this thinking at all, and you're not the only one I've heard this from before.

A WS championship is a team effort. If a great player is on a team that never gets to the WS, much less wins it, it should in no way deter from the prowess of said great player.

dabvu2498
05-24-2006, 12:23 PM
If a great player is on a team that never gets to the WS, much less wins it, it should in no way deter from the prowess of said great player.

The concept here is said great player can propel his team to greatness, championships.

I believe this thought process is more prevalent in pro basketball (Karl Malone) and less in football (Dan Marino) and in baseball (Jr, Teddy, Ernie Banks).

I just happen to agree with it.

TeamBoone
05-24-2006, 12:28 PM
I don't agree with it at all. No player, great or not, can propel 8 other players to greatness if they just have what it takes or if they're fundamentally bad.

savafan
05-24-2006, 12:31 PM
You're worried about Aurilia's bat not being in the lineup? Seriously?

I am. Ever since he came back from the DL last year he's been one of the Reds most consistent hitters. He also made a pretty nice play last night on a hard hit ball.

timmario66
05-24-2006, 12:35 PM
My son's algebra teacher is from Milwaukee so they've been needling him about the games. He wrote the number 7 on the board and my son said, well that's not even half the number of runs the Reds scored, and another kid chimed in and its greater than the number the Brewers scored. I showed him the picture of Griffey's leaping catch (a great photo) so my son said he was going to make that the teacher's background picture before he comes in the room. I wonder if he'll be jugged today??? :eek:

Does he go to Roger Bacon? That's the only place I've heard of jugged for detention. Good ole Justice Under God. Not that I ever had to serve it.:evil:

M2
05-24-2006, 12:36 PM
I just can't buy the idea that Junior playing left is any less risky than playing center. He may have a little less ground to cover but he is still using his legs in the same fashion. If anything, I'd rather see him moved to first.....only not during mid-season.

For now, let's just have a little faith.

I'd rather have a little defense.

I respect the hell out of Jr. I LOVE the all-out effort he gives. Truth is you probably can't protect him anywhere (though I'd argue a guy with bad legs doesn't need to do all the sprinting associated with CF). That being the case, the team ought to deploy him where he best fits. That's no longer in CF. The guy still has great OF technique. He should be able to get mileage out of that in an OF corner where his lack of range won't be constantly exposed.

remdog
05-24-2006, 12:44 PM
Jr. is good, but no Teddy Ballgame.

I've seen them both play and they'll both be in the HOF when Jr. is done. And, you're correct----Jr. is no Teddy Ballgame. Overall, he's the more complete player with more natural talent in every area except putting a round bat on a round ball, squarely. Williams was the best I ever personally saw in that respect but as an all around player Jr. has had a better career. :dunno:

Rem

dabvu2498
05-24-2006, 12:47 PM
as an all around player Jr. has had a better career.

Least we forget that TWICE, Teddy Ballgame's career was interrupted so he could fly fighter planes in defense of his country... not a bad career accomplishment.

Johnny Footstool
05-24-2006, 12:53 PM
I'd rather have a little defense.

I respect the hell out of Jr. I LOVE the all-out effort he gives. Truth is you probably can't protect him anywhere (though I'd argue a guy with bad legs doesn't need to do all the sprinting associated with CF). That being the case, the team ought to deploy him where he best fits. That's no longer in CF. The guy still has great OF technique. He should be able to get mileage out of that in an OF corner where his lack of range won't be constantly exposed.

I agree. The whole defense is better with Freel in CF. Junior would be a huge upgrade over Dunn in LF, and Dunn is better than what I've seen from the ham-handed Aurilia at 1B. Plus it upgrades to the whole offense as well.

So simple a child could understand it. Why can't Narron?

M2
05-24-2006, 12:57 PM
I agree. The whole defense is better with Freel in CF. Junior would be a huge upgrade over Dunn in LF, and Dunn is better than what I've seen from the ham-handed Aurilia at 1B. Plus it upgrades to the whole offense as well.

So simple a child could understand it. Why can't Narron?

My guess is the coaches and front office perceive this as being a more difficult switch than it will be in reality. They also might be holding off changes pending some moves this summer.

I would like to think it will all be straightened out by August.

Johnny Footstool
05-24-2006, 01:05 PM
I am. Ever since he came back from the DL last year he's been one of the Reds most consistent hitters. He also made a pretty nice play last night on a hard hit ball.

Aurilia doesn't get on base enough to be considered "consistent" in my book. He makes a ton of outs, way more than Adam Dunn even when Dunn is "slumping." And from what I've seen, Dunn is much better at catching errant throws at 1B than Aurilia.

Reds1
05-24-2006, 01:13 PM
That takes Aurilia's bat out of the lineup. Not sure I am willing to back that up.

Also, I'm not so sure Dunn can play a good 1B. He doesn't want to either. Griffey in CF doesn't bother me. I love to watch him. I can see possible griffey to 1b as soon as maybe next year, but Griffey prides himself on defense and feels he can still play CF. That's why we are status Quo and he has shown he can still do it. Web Gems the past two nights and lots of Kudos from the Baseball tonight crew.

remdog
05-24-2006, 01:16 PM
Least we forget that TWICE, Teddy Ballgame's career was interrupted so he could fly fighter planes in defense of his country... not a bad career accomplishment.

I'm well aware of that since I'm old enough to have lived through some of that and you....well, you aren't. (shrug) It still doesn't change the overall outlook on their games.

One could argue, though I'm not, that Jr. has spent an equal amount of time on the sidelines fighting his own war (injuries).

Rem

dabvu2498
05-24-2006, 01:37 PM
One could argue, though I'm not, that Jr. has spent an equal amount of time on the sidelines fighting his own war (injuries).

Rem
Even the suggestion is assanine. Williams missed 3 entire seasons (43-45) in his prime. Then played in only 6 games in 52 and 37 in 53. Plus had 2 other season where he played less than 100 games due to injury.

As an aside, I can't believe I (30 y.o. from Cincy) am defending Ted Williams against a guy who claims to have seen TW play and calls himself RemDog and a another guy from MA.

jimbo
05-24-2006, 01:41 PM
I don't think that does anything for his legacy if he just piggy backs some big market team as a dh or pinch hitter. It would do far more for his legend to help the Reds win one of those.



This is an excellent point. Baseball is a team game and no matter how good of a player you are, you have to have a good team around you in order to win a WS. Judging Junior's, or any player's, career on whether or not he has a ring just isn't fair.

remdog
05-24-2006, 01:41 PM
Even the suggestion is assanine. Williams missed 3 entire seasons (43-45) in his prime. Then played in only 6 games in 52 and 37 in 53. Plus had 2 other season where he played less than 100 games due to injury.

As an aside, I can't believe I (30 y.o. from Cincy) am defending Ted Williams against a guy who claims to have seen TW play and calls himself RemDog and a another guy from MA.

As I said, I'm not making that argument. It still doesn't change the fact that KGJ is the all around better player.

Rem

jimbo
05-24-2006, 01:42 PM
You're worried about Aurilia's bat not being in the lineup? Seriously?

Uhhhh......yeah.

dabvu2498
05-24-2006, 01:45 PM
As I said, I'm not making that argument. It still doesn't change the fact that KGJ is the all around better player.

Rem

And my point is, if Williams had played those 5 full seasons, you wouldn't be saying that.

MartyFan
05-24-2006, 01:51 PM
Better than.
Worse than.

Here is something we can agree on and in no way is it a debate...at least among thinking people...this is also why I posted the pics.

Junior Griffey coming back is as big a deal (maybe bigger) than Tommy John coming back. When John went down with his injury he was a very good pitcher and he came back and was a very good pitcher from an injury that ended how many other pitchers whose name we don't remember...Junior by being the gamer and ALL HEART player he is has pushed the game forward so that in future generatons we may see even more incredible players who will benefit from the knowledge gained through Juniors rehabs and reconstructions.

Simply put, he is inspiring.

remdog
05-24-2006, 02:07 PM
And my point is, if Williams had played those 5 full seasons, you wouldn't be saying that.

Actually, I would be saying that because we're not talking solely about batting statistics. We're (at least I have been) talking about the better overall talent---TW may have been the better hitter (and I've already said he was the best I've personally seen) but he was not a good fielder, had very little speed and didn't really have much of an arm. In this day and age he probably would have been been a DH.

Rem

savafan
05-24-2006, 02:14 PM
These days, anybody can buy a championship ring on ebay.

registerthis
05-24-2006, 02:16 PM
These days, anybody can buy a championship ring on ebay.

Perhaps someone could buy one for Junior so that we can commence with the Ted Williams comparisons.

dabvu2498
05-24-2006, 02:23 PM
In doing comparisons like this, all we have to do is fall back on stats. And in this case, stats from 2 different eras.

Fielding stats:
Jr. 2035 GP, 5105 Total Chances, 135 Assists, .986 fielding %
Ted 2152 GP, 4413 TC, 142 Assists (weak arm?), .974 %

Jr. is a better defender, no question. But does that outweigh the fact that TW was (arguably) the greatest hitter of all time???

savafan
05-24-2006, 02:35 PM
To take nothing away from Ted Williams, but had Junior been around, he wouldn't even have been able to play in the same league the first four years of Williams' career. Ted Williams also didn't have to face lefty specialists, flame throwing closers, play on astroturf, etc. It is too difficult to compare players across eras.

edabbs44
05-24-2006, 02:38 PM
To take nothing away from Ted Williams, but had Junior been around, he wouldn't even have been able to play in the same league the first four years of Williams' career. Ted Williams also didn't have to face lefty specialists, flame throwing closers, play on astroturf, etc. It is too difficult to compare players across eras.
Also the parks weren't built like they are nowadays...short porches galore.

dabvu2498
05-24-2006, 02:42 PM
I'd say any statistical comparison you would do would tell you that offensive numbers are skewed higher now than they were in Williams' era.

M2
05-24-2006, 03:40 PM
You're worried about Aurilia's bat not being in the lineup? Seriously?

I'd be concerned about that if weren't for Dane Sardinha being blocked out of the lineup by all these catchers in the majors.

M2
05-24-2006, 03:44 PM
I don't have the Win Shares in front of me, but I'm guessing Williams ranks well ahead of Jr. on that count.

That said, if Jr. had been a contemporary of Williams they wouldn't have been able to play against each other much if at all. To me that's the biggest drawback against any pre-1950s player.

KronoRed
05-24-2006, 04:52 PM
I am. Ever since he came back from the DL last year he's been one of the Reds most consistent hitters. He also made a pretty nice play last night on a hard hit ball.
Since returning from the DL this year he's been Tony Womack like.

Highlifeman21
05-25-2006, 02:11 PM
I don't agree with it at all. No player, great or not, can propel 8 other players to greatness if they just have what it takes or if they're fundamentally bad.


Alex Rodriguez since he's been a Yankee agrees with you completely. Hell, on any team he's played for that matter.