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osuceltic
05-25-2006, 03:51 PM
Robert Manuel, a right-hander in low A ball. That's all I know, and I don't know if that's even accurate. Have at it.

OnBaseMachine
05-25-2006, 03:57 PM
Robert Manuel (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/robert-manuel.shtml)

6'3" 190. Turns 23 in July.

Listed on the Brooklyn Cyclones roster but has yet to pitch this year. Played at Sam Houston State last year.

BuckWoody
05-25-2006, 03:59 PM
This calls to mind the Yankees fan's quote about the trade of Womack. Is this guy still alive? Not that that would be a deal breaker or anything.... :D

Falls City Beer
05-25-2006, 03:59 PM
As long as the Mets pick up his salary, I'm 'bout it.

Az. Reds Fan
05-25-2006, 04:01 PM
Ya think the Mets are still interested after getting El Duque?

I hope so...

dabvu2498
05-25-2006, 04:02 PM
As long as the Mets pick up his salary, I'm 'bout it.
Exactly... take his salary and that's good enough for me.

RedsManRick
05-25-2006, 04:06 PM
I know he's old for rookie ball, but 49 K and 4 BB is promising. Heck, getting anything of value is promising.

edabbs44
05-25-2006, 04:07 PM
He wasn't drafted last year and signed as a FA...does he have to wait to be traded (PTBNL route) or can he report straight to the team he is traded to.

NJReds
05-25-2006, 04:08 PM
Here's a link to Manuel's stats (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/robert-manuel.shtml#statistics)

Guacarock
05-25-2006, 04:09 PM
You're absolutely right, NJ Reds. Here's his line for 2005 with the Brooklyn Cyclones:


2 games, 5 IP, 5 hits, 5 KO, 0 BB, 1 earned run surrendered (a home run), 1 hold, 1.00 WHIP, 1.80 ERA.

NJReds
05-25-2006, 04:10 PM
That was last year. The Cyclones don't start until late June.

flyer85
05-25-2006, 04:12 PM
As long as the Mets pick up his salary, I'm 'bout it.Trading Williams is addition by subtraction so what you get back isn't really important.

Red Leader
05-25-2006, 04:19 PM
Hearing that we might be able to deal Williams makes me think that Dan O'Brien was even more of a loser for not being able to get ANYTHING when we DFA'd D'Angelo last year.

CTA513
05-25-2006, 04:21 PM
Robert Manuel (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/robert-manuel.shtml)

6'3" 190. Turns 23 in July.

Listed on the Brooklyn Cyclones roster but has yet to pitch this year. Played at Sam Houston State last year.

Hes only walked 4 batters in 61.2 innings in the minors.

Does anyone know what pitches he throws or how hard he throws?
Ive been looking on yahoo but havent found anything like that about him.

vaticanplum
05-25-2006, 04:34 PM
Crap, I used to go to Cyclones games a lot, I wonder if I've seen him pitch. I will check my scorecards.

I would take pretty much any pitcher under the age of 35 for Williams. and Manuel's age is listed as 0, so that's encouraging.

dabvu2498
05-25-2006, 04:37 PM
Trading Williams is addition by subtraction so what you get back isn't really important.
Yes, but wouldn't it be great to use the money promised to Williams for... maybe... bullpen help!!!

flyer85
05-25-2006, 04:48 PM
Hes only walked 4 batters in 61.2 innings in the minors.

Does anyone know what pitches he throws or how hard he throws?
not much by the looks of it seeing as he hasn't pitched this season. If the Mets want Williams contract they can have him, although I wouldn't have had a problem with paying some cash to acquire Heath Bell( BTW, he is pitching for the Mets in relief).

flyer85
05-25-2006, 04:49 PM
Yes, but wouldn't it be great to use the money promised to Williams for... maybe... bullpen help!!!I don't think money is an issue.

Red Leader
05-25-2006, 04:50 PM
Yes, but wouldn't it be great to use the money promised to Williams for... maybe... bullpen help!!!


hey, are you kidding me, we have Ryan Wagner in AAA! ;)

dougdirt
05-25-2006, 05:00 PM
Hearing that we might be able to deal Williams makes me think that Dan O'Brien was even more of a loser for not being able to get ANYTHING when we DFA'd D'Angelo last year.
I am going to disagree completley. There is a reason Jiminez waas DFA's and cleared waivers and played for AA last year. Becuase no one wanted him, even if he was free.

dabvu2498
05-25-2006, 05:11 PM
I don't think money is an issue.
Money is always an issue.

KronoRed
05-25-2006, 05:11 PM
If he's an actualy baseball player then it's a great deal for the Reds

Joseph
05-25-2006, 05:49 PM
The Cincinnati Reds today acquired minor league RHP Robert Manuel from the New York Mets in exchange for LHP Dave Williams and an undisclosed amount of cash.
Manuel, 22, will report to Class A Dayton. For the Mets he was expected to pitch for the Class A Brooklyn Cyclones, whose season begins later this month.
In 2005 the 6-3, 190-pound righthander split his first professional season between Brooklyn and the Gulf Coast League Mets, where he ranked among the GCL leaders in wins (8, T1st), ERA (2.06, 2nd), strikeouts (49, 4th) and innings pitched (56.2, 5th). For the season he produced 54 strikeouts and just 4 walks in 61.2 innings.
The Houston native attended Sam Houston State University, where he was All-Southland Conference last year. On June 17, 2005 he was signed by the Mets as a non-drafted minor league free agent.
Williams this season went 2-3 with a 7.20 ERA in 8 starts for Cincinnati. He was designated for assignment on Saturday, when LHP Eric Milton was reinstated from the 15-day disabled list.


From Lance's Blog

CTA513
05-25-2006, 05:51 PM
Reds got something for him, thats alot better than nothing.

:thumbup:

reds44
05-25-2006, 05:52 PM
Does this mean they took on all his salary?

Joseph
05-25-2006, 05:53 PM
It says Williams and cash, so I assume not.

reds44
05-25-2006, 05:53 PM
It says Williams and cash, so I assume not.
kk

Red Leader
05-25-2006, 05:54 PM
The Cincinnati Reds today acquired minor league RHP Robert Manuel from the New York Mets in exchange for LHP Dave Williams and an undisclosed amount of cash.

Kind of ironic that we traded Casey for Williams to save cash, and then we end up having to give cash away just to rid ourselves of Williams. :laugh:

I'm guessing we had to kick in at least 1/2 of Williams' salary.

vaticanplum
05-25-2006, 05:55 PM
I misread this at first; I thought that we turned over Dave Williams AND an undisclosed amount of cash for a single-A pitcher.

And the sad thing is, this made sense to me.

edit: oh no, apparently I was right. Oh man. Dave Williams is a bad, bad pitcher.

fisch11
05-25-2006, 05:59 PM
Nice job Wayne. I'm glad we got something in return rather than just eating his contract.....this guy can't be any worse.

Unassisted
05-25-2006, 06:06 PM
Kind of ironic that we traded Casey for Williams to save cash, and then we end up having to give cash away just to rid ourselves of Williams. :laugh: As much as it may hurt to see the Reds give away money on this deal, don't lose sight of the fact that Pittsburgh is paying Casey much more cash than that to heal on the DL.

I know it's not Casey's fault he got hurt and I get no glee from his misfortune, but it's hard not to get a certain amount of satisfaction from the payroll savings.

reds44
05-25-2006, 06:08 PM
The 6-foot-3, 190-pound Manuel was signed by the Mets last year as a non-drafted minor league free agent. He went 8-1 with a 2.06 ERA in 12 games for the Mets' rookie-level minor league team last season.


Well good start for him.

flyer85
05-25-2006, 06:08 PM
a 22 year old undrafted pitcher assigned to short season ball is nothing but a roster filler. However, with Williams, the idea was to have him gone and obviously the Mets have to eat a portion of his salary.

Red Leader
05-25-2006, 06:09 PM
As much as it may hurt to see the Reds give away money on this deal, don't lose sight of the fact that Pittsburgh is paying Casey much more cash than that to heal on the DL.

I know it's not Casey's fault he got hurt and I get no glee from his misfortune, but it's hard not to get a certain amount of satisfaction from the payroll savings.


Oh, I agree completely. I just think it's kind of ironic that the old regime basically sold Casey to PIT for Williams to save cash. That was their whole intention. The new regime is willing to spend some of that cash to get a player they want. I guess ironic isn't a good word to use (unless you're Alanis Morrisette), but you know what I mean.

RAS
05-25-2006, 06:19 PM
I'm real happy just to unload the guy and get something in return. The Manual kid is young and looks like he has a chance to be something someday.

Gallen5862
05-25-2006, 07:13 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASAp...5/c1471883.jsp
Reds deal Williams to Mets
05/25/2006 5:26 PM ET
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- The Reds successfully moved deposed starting pitcher Dave Williams on Thursday, when it sent him to the Mets for Minor League pitcher Robert Manuel.
Williams, who Cincinnati acquired from the Pirates in a December trade for first baseman Sean Casey, went 2-3 with a 7.20 ERA in eight starts. The left-hander struggled to be consistent and allowed 54 hits over 40 innings.

Instead of moving the struggling pitcher to the bullpen or optioning him to the Minor Leagues, the Reds made the bold move to designate Williams for assignment on Saturday to clear roster space when starter Eric Milton was activated from the disabled list.

Had the Reds not dealt Williams, they would have been responsible for paying the balance of his $1.4 million 2006 salary.

Entering his second professional season, Manuel is scheduled to report to Class A Dayton. The Mets had planned to use him at their short-season Class A affiliate in Brooklyn.

The 22-year-old right-hander was 8-1 with a 2.06 ERA last season for the Gulf Coast Mets before a promotion to Brooklyn. Overall, he struck out 54 with only four walks in 61 2/3 innings.

This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.


This was not a bad move. The Reds at least get a young pitcher with some potential.

redsfan4445
05-25-2006, 07:32 PM
per rotoworld.com
"Mets optioned LHP Dave Williams to Triple-A Norfolk.
Instead of being carried in the Mets' bullpen, Williams will join Norfolk's rotation. The Mets could still try him as a middle reliever once they have a need. He'd also be an option at the back of the rotation if Alay Soler struggles. May. 25 - 5:41 pm et
"

Doc. Scott
05-25-2006, 07:44 PM
I understand Wayne was just cleaning up DanO's mess, but I have a hard time believing Williams was *that* lightly regarded.

GridironGrace
05-25-2006, 08:18 PM
Man.... is that all we could get?

I figured we could get some bullpen help for him atleast...

I guess the Bright side is atleast we got SOMETHING.

Safe at Home
05-25-2006, 08:25 PM
Does that mean we just gave away Casey???

GridironGrace
05-25-2006, 08:31 PM
No lol

We traded him because of what he was gonna MAKE This year....

Wishing we didnt now though... based on the fact that we coulda payed him and never had to waste time on Williams.

Either way I love the team we field this season.

KronoRed
05-25-2006, 08:40 PM
Does that mean we just gave away Casey???
Some of his savings went to signing Dunn.

TeamBoone
05-25-2006, 09:46 PM
05/25/2006 5:26 PM ET

Reds deal Williams to Mets
Cincinnati acquires young right-hander Manuel in return
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com


CINCINNATI -- The Reds successfully moved deposed starting pitcher Dave Williams on Thursday, when it sent him to the Mets for Minor League pitcher Robert Manuel.

Williams, who Cincinnati acquired from the Pirates in a December trade for first baseman Sean Casey, went 2-3 with a 7.20 ERA in eight starts. The left-hander struggled to be consistent and allowed 54 hits over 40 innings.

Instead of moving the struggling pitcher to the bullpen or optioning him to the Minor Leagues, the Reds made the bold move to designate Williams for assignment on Saturday to clear roster space when starter Eric Milton was activated from the disabled list.

Had the Reds not dealt Williams, they would have been responsible for paying the balance of his $1.4 million 2006 salary.

Entering his second professional season, Manuel is scheduled to report to Class A Dayton. The Mets had planned to use him at their short-season Class A affiliate in Brooklyn.

The 22-year-old right-hander was 8-1 with a 2.06 ERA last season for the Gulf Coast Mets before a promotion to Brooklyn. Overall, he struck out 54 with only four walks in 61 2/3 innings.
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060525&content_id=1471883&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

DropDocK
05-25-2006, 10:14 PM
ha! for an A baller. I won't shed any tears. In Krivsky I trust.

jimbo
05-25-2006, 10:59 PM
Some of his savings went to signing Dunn.

Possibly, but my guess is that Dunn would have been signed whether Casey and his contract was still around or not.

Ltlabner
05-25-2006, 11:08 PM
As others have said, this is addition by subtraction. That we got something, anything in return is an added bonus. It is a shame, however, that we had to kick in cash to basically pay them to take DanO's mess off our hands.

More importantly, that BC and The Kriv have shown with this move is that they are serrious about building a solid team, and don't want to screw around with guys that they don't think cut it. That says a lot to me. Here we are less than 6 months from the DanO reign of terror and look at where we are. Are there problems and weaknesses? Of course (pitching, defense) but we've gone from the bad news bears on crack to a team that shows a glimmer of hope for competition now, and certinally in the not to distant future.

There is no "5 year plan" crap, no "slow building process". I like the Williams DFA almost soley because of the attitude it shows about the leaders of the orginization. The money issues and what we got in return were (almost) secondary.

Gallen5862
05-25-2006, 11:20 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print...254&type=story
Mets acquire lefty Williams from Reds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Associated Press

NEW YORK -- The New York Mets made another trade to help their injury-depleted pitching staff Thursday, acquiring Dave Williams from the Cincinnati Reds for a minor leaguer.

Dave Williams
Starting Pitcher
Cincinnati Reds

Profile
2006 SEASON STATISTICS
GM W L BB K ERA
8 2 3 16 16 7.20


The Reds got right-hander Robert Manuel in the deal and assigned him to Class A Dayton. They also sent about $500,000 to the Mets to cover half of Williams' remaining salary this season. Williams is making $1.4 million this year.

The 27-year-old lefty was designated for assignment by Cincinnati on Saturday. He was 2-3 with a 7.20 ERA in eight starts.

"We've added to our stockpile of pitching," Mets general manager Omar Minaya said. "It enables us to fill some holes caused by the injuries to some of the players we had. It gives us numbers."

In his last start, Williams gave up six runs in three innings of Cincinnati's 9-8 victory over Pittsburgh on Thursday. He went 10-11 with a 4.25 ERA for the Pirates last season and is 19-29 with a 4.56 ERA in 74 major league games, including 66 starts.

Cincinnati acquired him from Pittsburgh last offseason for first baseman Sean Casey and cash.

"We see Williams as a starting pitcher and we're going to send him to Triple-A with that in mind," Minaya said.

Trying to upgrade the back of their rotation, the Mets acquired veteran right-hander Orlando Hernandez from Arizona on Wednesday for reliever Jorge Julio.

Victor Zambrano is out for the season following elbow surgery and rookie Brian Bannister is still sidelined with a hamstring injury. John Maine, who filled in for one start, is also on the disabled list because of inflammation in his right middle finger.

After trading starters Kris Benson and Jae Seo in the offseason, New York has been scrambling to fill the void, using Jose Lima and Jeremi Gonzalez behind the steady trio of Pedro Martinez, Tom Glavine and Steve Trachsel.

Gonzalez was designated for assignment Thursday after New York's loss to Philadelphia. He allowed three runs and seven hits in six innings of a no-decision, leaving him with a 7.71 ERA in three starts. The Mets have 10 days to trade, release or send him outright to the minors.

If Gonzalez clears waivers, New York manager Willie Randolph said the team would like to send him back to Triple-A Norfolk.

The right-hander was cut to make room on the roster for Hernandez, expected to join the team Friday in Florida and make his Mets debut with a start on Sunday.

Another reason Gonzalez became expendable was the promising major league debut of Cuban defector Alay Soler on Wednesday night against the Phillies.

"We're going to go with Soler in the rotation for now," Minaya said. "This gives us some comfort zone and we'll have to see how it works out."

Lima was designated for assignment on Saturday.

The 6-foot-3, 190-pound Manuel is 22 years old. He went 8-1 with a 2.06 ERA in 12 games of rookie ball with the Gulf Coast Mets last season.



This looks like we saved $500,000. Should we go after Jeremi Gonzalez or Colter Bean or Justin Leahr who have all been dfaed? We have one spot open on our 40 man roster.

KYRedsFan
05-25-2006, 11:41 PM
+ by - = :)

remdog
05-25-2006, 11:48 PM
For some reason Robert Manuel makes me recall the minor leaguer that the Reds signed out of an independant league a few years back. I think his name was Brett Gray. Seems like he actually managed to pitch OK until about AA Chattanooga.

Rem

Topcat
05-25-2006, 11:53 PM
Kriv just saved the Red's 500k and in a system that has to be budget conscious I applaud this move. The prospect is a long shot but heck he has good numbers! If this guy ever makes the staff as a reliever then Kriv's legacy is starting off well.

TheBigLebowski
05-26-2006, 12:07 AM
When I found out we DFA'd Williams, I was HAPPY.

When I found out we DFA'd D'Angelo last year, I was HAPPY.

Couple of people have referenced D'Angelo Jimenez in this thread. Think the two situations are similar, at least to me. Addition by subtraction, both times.

I was glad to be rid of D'Angelo, and I am THRILLED to be rid of Williams. I never expected the Reds to be able to find any suitors for him, which is why Krivvs made that bold of a decision with him. I also knew no one was going to want D'Angelo. 'Course, the best DFA decision of all time was when Dan O'Brien DFA'd Danny Graves. Probably the only good thing he ever did. Interesting to note that the NY Mets claimed Graves and made a trade with us for Williams. This has to be a troubling trend for Mets' fans.

I am amazed a major league ballclub wanted to add Williams to their organization. If the most Robert Manuel ever does for this organization is to learn how to mow the center field grass, we win this deal.

Adios, Dave Williams.....may the road rise up to meet you.

Dave remains the only person alive who can outrun his fastball.

marcshoe
05-26-2006, 12:43 AM
Does that mean we just gave away Casey???

I think we already had an answer to that one.

Gallen5862
05-26-2006, 12:46 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/transactions
Milwaukee Brewers Optioned pitcher Chris Demaria to Nashville of the Pacific Coast League (AAA); send outright pitcher Justin Lehr to Nashville.

Thats leaves Bean and Jeremi Gonzalez as posabilities to add to Reds 40 man roster on claims. I am surprized Lehr cleared waivers. What are some suggestions for our 40th roster spot?

redsmetz
05-26-2006, 06:43 AM
Here's the NY Times' article on the trade.


Mets Send Minor Leaguer to Reds for Dave Williams

By THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: May 26, 2006

The Mets acquired their second starting pitcher in two days yesterday, obtaining the left-handed Dave Williams from the Cincinnati Reds in exchange for the minor league pitcher Robert Manuel. They immediately optioned Williams to Class AAA Norfolk. Williams, 27, was 2-3 with a 7.20 earned run average in eight starts for the Reds before he was designated for assignment Saturday.

For the Mets, it was a chance worth taking because Williams bolsters their options. Williams could be called up to fill a spot in the rotation, allowing the Mets additional time to develop other pitchers, like Mike Pelfrey. And he could become part of a package as the trading deadline gets closer.

Williams was 10-11 with a 4.25 earned run average with Pittsburgh last season. He was traded to Cincinnati in the off-season, and the Mets will pay only a portion of his $1.4 million salary. It is possible that he could find some success at Shea Stadium, known as a haven for pitchers. Williams, a fly-ball pitcher, struggled in Cincinnati's Great American Ballpark, widely viewed as the best hitter's park in the National League.

"If he gives us 10 wins and has a 4.00 E.R.A. as a fifth starter, I'll take it," General Manager Omar Minaya said. But for now, Williams will be pitching in the minors.

remdog
05-26-2006, 08:24 AM
"If he gives us 10 wins and has a 4.00 E.R.A. as a fifth starter, I'll take it," General Manager Omar Minaya said."

I'd say the Reds would have taken that too but Dave didn't even come close. :rolleyes:

Basicly, I'm neutral about whether the Reds should have DFA'd/traded Williams or sent him to the minors. It doesn't look like much was going to come of either option. The good thing about the move is that it shows the Reds willingness to eat some salary (at least in moderation) to make the club better. That's encourageing.

Rem

E. Davis 44
05-26-2006, 09:14 AM
we could have sent him to the minors, but he still would have made 1.4 million.
The way Kriv did it was, he got the mets to agree to take on the 1.4 million and sent $500,000 basically getting rid of a BAD pitcher and netting us $900,000 in the process. That is why he is not pitching in Triple A for us.

Nice Move - take a chance on a young pitcher and save $900,000. Krivsky is the man!

Hey Milwaukee hope you like DanO

traderumor
05-26-2006, 09:51 AM
It is possible that he could find some success at Shea Stadium, known as a haven for pitchers.Ugh, there's that illogical reasoning again. You can take a crappy pitcher, put him in a "pitcher's park" and he "could find success." So, McFly, just imagine if you put average pitchers in a pitcher's park, they'd become "very good," at least for home games. And if you put good pitcher's in a pitcher's park, you'd have the Mets of the 70s.

I wonder if GMs buy into that or if its just fools in the media that keep on repeating that ignorance?

MattyHo4Life
05-26-2006, 09:52 AM
we could have sent him to the minors, but he still would have made 1.4 million.
The way Kriv did it was, he got the mets to agree to take on the 1.4 million and sent $500,000 basically getting rid of a BAD pitcher and netting us $900,000 in the process. That is why he is not pitching in Triple A for us.

Nice Move - take a chance on a young pitcher and save $900,000. Krivsky is the man!

Hey Milwaukee hope you like DanO

I think the savings is only about $500,000. The Reds have already paid Williams for the time that he was a Reds which is about a month and a half to two months. That is close to a third of the season. The Reds still owed about a million dollars, and they are paying the Mets half of that to make the mistake go away. I don't have much use for Dave Williams, but the Mets couldn't pass that deal up. Williams shouldn't be in anybody's rotation, but he may not do too horrible as a reliever. I think the Reds should have tried him in the pen before paying another team to do it.

paintmered
05-26-2006, 09:53 AM
Does that mean we just gave away Casey???

You can choose to look at it that way. But you should also realize that Casey did not have much value to begin with, especially with his salary.

TStuck
05-26-2006, 10:11 AM
One of the earlier posts got me to thinking ( I know...that's dangerous).
I think this whole scenario shows O'Brien's ineptitude in yet another way that I don't think has been mentioned.

For Williams, who by most accounts, has never been a great pitcher, Krivsky was able to extract an A ball player from the Mets and get out of about 500K of salary owed to him.

Now jump in the wayback machine and rewind to last year. The Reds DFA Graves who, I think everyone will acknowledge, was an accomplished closer prior to him falling apart last year. Surely Graves would have been regarded as infinitely more valuable a potential pickup than a Williams yet Obie couldn't get squat for him!:thumbdown

I just continue to be amazed as I sit back and watch how quickly the house is being swept clean of nearly every major league player acquired by Obie. I think this leaves Weathers, Mercker, Milton, and Aurilia as the only major leaguers left who were acquired by DanO. I'm not counting Lizard because he was acquired as a minor leaguer.

Obie's only real remaining hope for a star in his MLB crown is for some of his draftees to pan out. I suppose there's still a chance for 1 or more of his minor league acquisitions to be long term contributors (Lizard looks like his best bet for that so far), but his only shot at a positive spin to his legacy lies with the draftees.

redsmetz
05-26-2006, 10:37 AM
"If he gives us 10 wins and has a 4.00 E.R.A. as a fifth starter, I'll take it," General Manager Omar Minaya said."

I'd say the Reds would have taken that too but Dave didn't even come close. :rolleyes:

Basicly, I'm neutral about whether the Reds should have DFA'd/traded Williams or sent him to the minors. It doesn't look like much was going to come of either option. The good thing about the move is that it shows the Reds willingness to eat some salary (at least in moderation) to make the club better. That's encourageing.

Rem

I think Krivskey is acknowledging that O'Brien left him with a bad hand and he's tossing in for some new cards. I agree that I'd have been happy with 10 wins and a 4.00 ERA, but it became clear it wasn't going to come about (which all here agree on). I am anxious to see the long term for Wayne Krivskey - i.e. a Reds organization that shines from bottom to top.

flyer85
05-26-2006, 10:57 AM
Reds save about 500K on the deal

from Murray Chass of the NYT


The Mets optioned him to the minors for remedial work. The Reds designated him for assignment last week after he struggled with a 7.20 earned run average and a 2-3 record in eight starts.

The Mets gave Cincinnati a low-level minor leaguer for Williams. The Reds will pay half of what remains of his $1.4 million salary this season, so the Mets get him for less than $500,000. That's not an expensive premium these days for an insurance policy.

Redhook
05-26-2006, 11:21 AM
Reds save about 500K on the deal

from Murray Chass of the NYT

The bottom line is Williams wasn't in the long-term Reds plans. The Reds have to be ecstatic that they got anything for Williams. I'm shocked they did. They're saving 500K and got a pitcher that atleast has potential. Good job Wayne! :thumbup:

remdog
05-26-2006, 11:25 AM
I think Krivskey is acknowledging that O'Brien left him with a bad hand and he's tossing in for some new cards. I agree that I'd have been happy with 10 wins and a 4.00 ERA, but it became clear it wasn't going to come about (which all here agree on). I am anxious to see the long term for Wayne Krivskey - i.e. a Reds organization that shines from bottom to top.

It makes you wonder what might have been had Lindner hired Krivsky the first time around instead of O'Brian.

Rem

NJReds
05-26-2006, 11:29 AM
From the Enquirer:


Familiarity with Manuel was a factor in completing the trade with the Mets. Scott Nethery, one of Krivsky's special assistants, signed Manuel in June of last year when Nethery was with the Mets.

"I'm going with Scott here," Krivsky said.

Manuel, 6 feet 3, 190 pounds, pitched for Sam Houston State in college. He went 8-1 with a 2.06 ERA for the Gulf Coast Mets last year. He struck out 54 and walked only four in 602/3 innings.

He has been in Port St. Lucie at extended spring training. The Reds have assigned him to Single-A Dayton.

NJReds
05-26-2006, 11:31 AM
Heard Minaya on WFAN in NY last night.

His main points on the Williams deal:
- Another "quality" arm
- Gave up nothing, Reds paid a good portion of the salary
- Won 10 games for a last place team
- "Ballpark" played a factor in this year's struggles. :rolleyes:

LincolnparkRed
05-26-2006, 11:35 AM
Heard Minaya on WFAN in NY last night.

His main points on the Williams deal:
- Another "quality" arm
- Gave up nothing, Reds paid a good portion of the salary
- Won 10 games for a last place team
- "Ballpark" played a factor in this year's struggles. :rolleyes:

Yeah because those 6 runs he gave up in the first last week in Pittsburgh had something to do with pitching at GABP. Then again Minaya can't say well now it might seem like we got hosed either.

Joseph
05-26-2006, 11:41 AM
Its such a contrast in GMs. I remember when DanO was hired I was personally big on Minaya getting the chance, even though we had to suffer through a couple seasons of DanO, I'm very glad to have The K in charge now and I absolutely am thrilled its not Omar.

flyer85
05-26-2006, 11:42 AM
- "Ballpark" played a factor in this year's struggles. :rolleyes:nothing could be further from the truth but Minaya is right in that he didn't give up anything.

Redhook
05-26-2006, 11:53 AM
Its such a contrast in GMs. I remember when DanO was hired I was personally big on Minaya getting the chance, even though we had to suffer through a couple seasons of DanO, I'm very glad to have The K in charge now and I absolutely am thrilled its not Omar.

Me too, good points. It's really hard to believe it took Krivsky this long to land a GM job. We really, really lucked out on this one. We passed on him a couple of years ago for DanO and for him to still be available in February was just amazing. Times are a changin'.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2006, 01:20 PM
I would have taken a bucket of balls and a rosin bag for Williams.

A live body is a bonus.

If this guy pans out, it's a steal.

Patrick Bateman
05-26-2006, 01:34 PM
His main points on the Williams deal:
- Another "quality" arm
- Gave up nothing, Reds paid a good portion of the salary
- Won 10 games for a last place team
- "Ballpark" played a factor in this year's struggles. :rolleyes:

I don't uunderstabd how a Major League GM could say such incompetent things,

Our ballpark is neutral. It would not have played much of a fctor in William's' struggles.

He also said he would "take" Williams having a 4.00 ERA with 10 wins. That's above average numbers right there. He's asking a player that hasn't had that low of an ERA since 2001 and is on a downward spiral. He should be giddy if he gets his ERA anywhere in the ballpark of 5.00, yet has the audacity to "take" an ERA of 4.00, which is not really a possibility at this point for Williams.

oneupper
05-26-2006, 02:03 PM
Defnite "win" for Krivsky.Why pay this guy the $1 mm to pitch AAA and take starts away from guys we might actually use?
This way we get $500K OFF the books and a kid with an arm (two hopefully) to boot.

Last year DanO sent Jimenez down to Chattanooga to play. He wasn't going to come back. So the Lookouts had a $2.8 mm second baseman taking ABs away from the kids. Stupid.

REDREAD
05-26-2006, 02:44 PM
I don't uunderstabd how a Major League GM could say such incompetent things,

.

In fairness to Minya, this trade also makes a lot of sense to the Mets.
The "prospect" they gave up is nothing, so basically all it costs the Mets is 500k, which is insignificant.

The Mets are trying to contend and have had some injuries to their pitching staff. It's not a bad idea to spend 500k to stash Dave Williams in AAA in case another pitching injury happens or someone on the big league squad totally implodes.

Dave Williams will pitch better in Shea than the GAB (most likely). It still won't make Williams a good pitcher, but it will make him less bad . :)

Also, part of the job of a GM is to hype up the new acquisions. He's got to convince the fans he's doing all he can to try to win. He can't just come out and say, "Well, the guy sucks, but it only cost us 500k to have him as a last resort insurance policy", even if that's what he's thinking.

Patrick Bateman
05-26-2006, 02:46 PM
In fairness to Minya, this trade also makes a lot of sense to the Mets.


I don't disagree with that, but Minaya had an awful review of Williams. They got him for depth simply because he could probably pitch better than Lima if they needed someone. They didn't get Williams with the expectations that he would be one of their best starters.

TeamBoone
05-26-2006, 02:55 PM
05-26-2006

Player, cash for Williams
Reds avoid letting him go for nothing
By Marc Lancaster / Associated Press

The Reds didn't want to let Dave Williams go for nothing, and they found a way to accomplish that goal Thursday.

Five days after the struggling left-hander was designated for assignment, the Reds traded Williams to the New York Mets for minor league pitcher Robert Manuel. The Reds included an undisclosed amount of cash, believed to be around $500,000, to offset the remainder of the $1.4 million Williams is owed this season.

Williams probably would have been picked up off waivers had he made it to that point in the process, and the Reds preferred to try to get something for him. They did so in picking up Manuel, allowing them to cut ties with Williams.

Not only did the Reds want to get something done, said general manager Wayne Krivsky, the deal was good "for Dave's peace of mind, too. He doesn't have to stay in limbo any longer, he knows where he's going and what he needs to do. Somebody wanted to make a trade for him, so he's got to feel good about that. We appreciate all of his efforts while he was here."

Former GM Dan O'Brien acquired Williams from the Pittsburgh Pirates in exchange for Sean Casey at baseball's winter meetings in December. The move, then and now, amounted mainly to a salary dump that freed the Reds from the $8.5 million the All-Star first baseman was to make this season.

But the Reds expected to get at least some contributions from Williams, who won 10 games for a last-place Pirates team last season. He immediately was penciled into the starting rotation and had plenty of opportunities to prove himself.

Williams pitched poorly from the start of spring training on, with one glaring exception - a brilliant outing two weeks ago against the Phillies in which he allowed one earned run in 8 1/3 innings. Despite that performance, Williams' ERA sat at 7.20 in eight starts when the Reds designated him for assignment last Saturday to make room for Eric Milton's return from the disabled list.

Williams had a minor league option remaining, but the Reds didn't believe he would help them down the line, so they opened the bidding on him. The pitching-starved Mets, who acquired Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez from Arizona on Wednesday, decided to take advantage of Williams' availability. They plan to option him to Class AAA Norfolk for the time being, but there's a good chance he'll be called up later this season.

The player the Reds received in return won't be in Cincinnati anytime soon. Manuel is a 6-foot-3, 190-pound right-hander who turns 23 in July. He went undrafted out of Sam Houston State University last summer, but then-Mets scout Scott Nethery - now the Reds' special assistant to the GM for player personnel - signed him as a free agent.

Making his professional debut in the Gulf Coast League, Manuel went 8-1 with a 2.06 ERA in 12 appearances, five of them starts. Most impressively, he walked only four and struck out 49 in 56 2/3 innings. He also made two appearances for short-season Brooklyn, allowing one run with no walks and five strikeouts in five innings of work over two games.

"He had a hell of a summer for a kid that wasn't drafted," said Krivsky.

Manuel uses a fastball, sinker, slider and changeup and is known for pounding the strike zone. Krivsky said the Reds will send Manuel to low-Class A Dayton and "see what he looks like."
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060526/SPT05/605260324/1027

dabvu2498
05-26-2006, 03:32 PM
Why pay this guy the $1 mm to pitch AAA and take starts away from guys we might actually use?
The way I read it, we're going to pay him a million anyway to pitch for someone else.

This from today's Dayton Daily News:


Cincinnati's purging of lefty Williams makes little sense
By Jim Morris

Staff Writer

A million dollars is still a bunch of greenbacks. If you don't think so, just ask the Cincinnati Reds.

That, it appears, is why the Reds gave up on left-handed pitcher Dave Williams, who is only 27, and has been horrible this year with a 2-3 record and 7.20 earned run average.

But what's the real reason?

They have put up with just as much inconsistency from other pitchers, including Eric Milton, another left-hander who costs them more ($9.8 million), but has yet to prove he can keep the ball in the park and win games.

Milton was 8-15 last year with a 6.47 ERA and a whopping 40 homers allowed. And after four starts this year, his ERA was almost the same as the younger Williams, at 7.04.

Williams even had an option, but instead of demoting him to Louisville, they took the drastic step of designating him for assignment. Thursday, they completed the purging of Williams, shipping him to the Mets for a minor-league pitcher.

It looks like they were more interested in getting rid of Dan O'Brien's mistake than taking a chance on a 27-year-old who at times pitched well enough to think that with some minor league work, there might be some hope.

Yes, they would have to eat an even bigger serving of lettuce if they dumped Milton, but isn't that better than penciling in a loss every time he takes the mound? Obviously, no other team wants him.

It's astonishing that the Reds gave up on the guy they received for the popular Sean Casey ... even before the All-Star break.

oneupper
05-26-2006, 03:48 PM
The way I read it, we're going to pay him a million anyway to pitch for someone else.



The $1.4 mm is sunk cost. Williams is going to get it no matter what. The question is who pays him. From what I understand, we already owe or have paid him about $400K for his fine work this year.

So we can:

Pay him $1 mm to play in AAA and "maybe" get better.
Pay the Mets $500K so they can pay him $1mm to play in AAA and "maybe" get better.

Krivsky took door number two. Deal or NO Deal, he took the Deal.

NJReds
05-26-2006, 03:50 PM
Defnite "win" for Krivsky.Why pay this guy the $1 mm to pitch AAA and take starts away from guys we might actually use?



Like Joe Mays...:help:

Blimpie
05-26-2006, 04:35 PM
Let's not forget that Williams velocity-challenged wing makes all signs point to him being damaged goods. I'm suprised the Mets have not already demanded a physical.

gm
05-26-2006, 07:40 PM
The "Williams from Reds to Mets" deal reminds me of "Schourek from Mets to Reds" back in the day...Pete ran into Don Gullett and blossomed into a Cy Young candidate

IIRC, DW has more "pre-trade" ML success than PS had

TeamBoone
05-26-2006, 07:55 PM
The "Williams from Reds to Mets" deal reminds me of "Schourek from Mets to Reds" back in the day...Pete ran into Don Gullett and blossomed into a Cy Young candidate

IIRC, DW has more "pre-trade" ML success than PS had

Ouch! I don't even want to think about that.