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OnBaseMachine
05-26-2006, 11:14 AM
Daugherty should be fined for even mentioning Dave Kingman is the same article as Dunn.

Leaving them wanting more
Adam Dunn puts on a show with the longball, but does he aspire to be more than a slugger?

BY PAUL DAUGHERTY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

What do you want from Adam Dunn?

There is a problem with being 6 feet 6, weighing 275 pounds and being a good enough athlete that the University of Texas signed you to play quarterback. It is this:

People are always going to want more.

You hit 40 homers? Great. How many were solo?

You drove in 100 runs? What was your batting average with runners in scoring position?

And by the way: Could you mix in some defense?

Is it fair? Beats me.

If history holds, Dunn will hit at least 40 home runs, drive in 100 runs and score 100 more this season, for the third year in a row. He'll walk at least 100 times. His on-base percentage will be near the 10 best in the National League. He's all of 26 years old.

If that's all there is, OK. As Reds manager Jerry Narron said Wednesday, "That ain't bad."

No, it ain't.

What do you want from Adam Dunn?

It's the $23.5 million question. That's what the Reds would owe Dunn for next season and 2008. That is a lot of money for a pitching-needy, small-revenue club to pay a power hitter.

We've had these discussions for four years, or about as long as Dunn has been a Red. Maybe we should stop. Because for everyone who thinks Dunn has the skills to be a great player, there are as many who think being great isn't what drives him. Often, it's the same people offering both arguments.

Unless you are blessed with supernatural skills, greatness is a mindset. You respect your talent by using all of it. What you lack in skill, you make up for with effort. If being the best drives you, nothing is as important.

Until Narron rested him Wednesday, Dunn was the only Red to play in every game this season. The last several days, he took early batting practice. You never hear a peep from him about switching positions. He doesn't say much when allegedly ill-informed media people crack on his game.

Yet he affects an air of indifference. Dunn has said the worst advice he ever got came from former Reds general manager Jim Bowden, who told him he should pull the ball more. Yet some opponents are shifting all four infielders between first base and second base when the left-handed-hitting Dunn appears at the plate.

He has worked with Reds hitting coach Chris Chambliss, who has urged Dunn to use more of the field and to adjust his plate approach depending on the count he's facing. But when he has fallen behind no balls and two strikes this season, Dunn is 0-for-10 with nine strikeouts.

Yeah, but ...

Dunn leads the Reds in homers. He's tied for the team lead in RBI and second in runs. What more do you want?

If he took pitches to left field ... if he were more aggressive at the plate ... if he put in more time working on his defense ...

I wanted to ask Dunn about all that. He didn't want to talk, at least not to me. Maybe especially not to me. Fair enough. I'm not exactly the president of the Dunner Fan Club. Regardless, the temptation is to suggest Dunn is OK with who he is, and we should be, too.

Dunn is, to most, a genial good ol' boy from a small town 40 miles north of Houston, where everybody knows everybody and where generations of his family have lived. He has that laconic, laid back air familiar to Texans. If the burden of talent and potential bugs him, you'd never know. If ever anyone was born to fish for bass in a pond, it's Adam Dunn.

If Dunn were older, it would be easier to say he was following the career path blazed by Dave Kingman. If he were 36 instead of 26, we all would be urging him to write "designated hitter" on his tax returns. We'd be looking at that size and athleticism and wondering, "Is that all there is?" even as he approaches 500 homers.

But he's only arriving at his best. What he chooses to do with it is anyone's guess.

E-mail pdaugherty@enquirer.com

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060526/SPT04/605260403

NJReds
05-26-2006, 11:19 AM
I think it's a fair column. It balances the good and the not so good.

Dunn's immense talent and how far his star will rise is the reason why there are so many threads about him on this board.

Red in Chicago
05-26-2006, 11:33 AM
Daugherty should be fined for even mentioning Dave Kingman is the same article as Dunn.

that's a little over-dramatic, don't you think?

flyer85
05-26-2006, 11:37 AM
If Dunn were older, it would be easier to say he was following the career path blazed by Dave Kingman.Just to stamp home the point he is nothing but another misinformed sportswriter by comparing him to Kong.

OnBaseMachine
05-26-2006, 11:37 AM
that's a little over-dramatic, don't you think?

Well, it was joke. But a person with considerable baseball knowledge should know that Adam Dunn is not Dave Kingman. Paul D. is just another uninformed writer.

GAC
05-26-2006, 11:43 AM
Are we allowed to criticize Dunn on this forum? :lol:

I just wish he'd quit swinging at bad pitches with RISP.

It's situational hitting and especially RBI opportunities that bothers most about Adam.

Not terrible at all, but could be better by most people's observations.

He's currently tied with BP with 31 RBI's. Kearns has 30.

Griffey has 26 in almost 1/2 as many A/Bs.

If Adam doesn't like the shift, then this is sound advice from Chambliss...


He has worked with Reds hitting coach Chris Chambliss, who has urged Dunn to use more of the field and to adjust his plate approach depending on the count he's facing.

flyer85
05-26-2006, 11:46 AM
But a person with considerable baseball knowledge no reason to believe that Paul D is that. I listened to him with the Goob one day last week and he admitted he doesn't follow a lot of this stuff. What Krivsky does in the next two years with the structure of the team will likely define his tenure with the Reds.

westofyou
05-26-2006, 11:55 AM
If Dunn were older, it would be easier to say he was following the career path blazed by Dave Kingman. If he were 36 instead of 26, we all would be urging him to write "designated hitter" on his tax returns. We'd be looking at that size and athleticism and wondering, "Is that all there is?" even as he approaches 500 homers.

Being tall and striking out alot doesn't make Dunn Dave Kingman, if it did than my short stature and love of hockey would make me Michael J. Foxx.

However the comparison is ridiculous in a column that is about how Adam Dunn the player is misunderstood, in fact it might be the most misaimed part of the whole column.

Because Dunn is tall and hits HR's and K's he should be compared to Kingman, not Howard, not Sexson, not Strawberry... bullocks I say.

What a player needs to do is not make outs and reach base.

Adam Dunn does that better than most of the tall players in the history of the game, much better than Dave Kingman did.

Going tall only

Best vs the league in reaching base under age 26


CAREER
AGE <= 26
HEIGHT >= 78
HOMERUNS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
STRIKEOUTS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

REACHED BASE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE HR R RC/G SO
1 Adam Dunn 202 1066 864 85 107 2.14 315
2 Darryl Strawberry 191 1238 1047 119 140 2.45 300
3 Dave Winfield 71 1104 1033 41 62 0.92 48
4 Tony Clark 25 652 627 43 16 0.84 132
5 Frank Howard 11 606 595 55 22 1.10 161
6 Richie Sexson -30 666 696 55 18 0.45 168
7 Dave Kingman -91 580 671 73 17 0.07 318
8 Howie Schultz -152 471 623 -3 -51 -1.57 73


Best all time 1000 ab's

CAREER
HEIGHT >= 78
HOMERUNS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
STRIKEOUTS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

REACHED BASE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE HR R RC/G SO
1 Dave Winfield 412 4351 3939 201 275 1.21 76
2 Frank Howard 323 2589 2266 223 95 1.63 499
3 Darryl Strawberry 271 2255 1984 203 203 1.86 486
4 Adam Dunn 202 1066 864 85 107 2.14 315
5 Richie Sexson 78 1452 1374 121 72 1.13 317
6 Tony Clark 25 1530 1505 93 -4 0.58 316
7 Walt Bond 4 430 426 11 0 0.25 -3
8 Howie Schultz -152 471 623 -3 -51 -1.57 73
9 Dave Kingman -276 2236 2512 285 34 0.23 832

Hoosier Red
05-26-2006, 01:35 PM
I think people are missing the point.
It's not that he is Dave Kingman, but rather that the perception is out there that he's like Dave Kingman.
It's unfortunate, but it's out there.

Much as we'd like him to, Paul D isn't going to bring up OPS or anything like that.

westofyou
05-26-2006, 01:36 PM
I think people are missing the point.
It's not that he is Dave Kingman, but rather that the perception is out there that he's like Dave Kingman.
It's unfortunate, but it's out there.

Much as we'd like him to, Paul D isn't going to bring up OPS or anything like that.
What's the point in maintaining a faulty perception?

If thats' the case I'll start one.. Adam Dunn reminds me alot of Dan Issel, really tall and white.

KittyDuran
05-26-2006, 02:23 PM
I think people are missing the point.
It's not that he is Dave Kingman, but rather that the perception is out there that he's like Dave Kingman.
It's unfortunate, but it's out there.

Much as we'd like him to, Paul D isn't going to bring up OPS or anything like that.:doh: No kidding about the perception... go to any home game and you get an earful...:p:

gm
05-26-2006, 02:37 PM
How did McCovey not shake out in that comparison?


Being tall and striking out alot doesn't make Dunn Dave Kingman, if it did than my short stature and love of hockey would make me Michael J. Foxx.

However the comparison is ridiculous in a column that is about how Adam Dunn the player is misunderstood, in fact it might be the most misaimed part of the whole column.

Because Dunn is tall and hits HR's and K's he should be compared to Kingman, not Howard, not Sexson, not Strawberry... bullocks I say.

What a player needs to do is not make outs and reach base.

Adam Dunn does that better than most of the tall players in the history of the game, much better than Dave Kingman did.

Going tall only

Best vs the league in reaching base under age 26


CAREER
AGE <= 26
HEIGHT >= 78
HOMERUNS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
STRIKEOUTS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

REACHED BASE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE HR R RC/G SO
1 Adam Dunn 202 1066 864 85 107 2.14 315
2 Darryl Strawberry 191 1238 1047 119 140 2.45 300
3 Dave Winfield 71 1104 1033 41 62 0.92 48
4 Tony Clark 25 652 627 43 16 0.84 132
5 Frank Howard 11 606 595 55 22 1.10 161
6 Richie Sexson -30 666 696 55 18 0.45 168
7 Dave Kingman -91 580 671 73 17 0.07 318
8 Howie Schultz -152 471 623 -3 -51 -1.57 73


Best all time 1000 ab's

CAREER
HEIGHT >= 78
HOMERUNS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
STRIKEOUTS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

REACHED BASE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE HR R RC/G SO
1 Dave Winfield 412 4351 3939 201 275 1.21 76
2 Frank Howard 323 2589 2266 223 95 1.63 499
3 Darryl Strawberry 271 2255 1984 203 203 1.86 486
4 Adam Dunn 202 1066 864 85 107 2.14 315
5 Richie Sexson 78 1452 1374 121 72 1.13 317
6 Tony Clark 25 1530 1505 93 -4 0.58 316
7 Walt Bond 4 430 426 11 0 0.25 -3
8 Howie Schultz -152 471 623 -3 -51 -1.57 73
9 Dave Kingman -276 2236 2512 285 34 0.23 832

registerthis
05-26-2006, 02:38 PM
Best vs the league in reaching base under age 26

Sometimes I forget what a talent Darryl Strawberry was. Such a waste, his is one of baseball's more tragic stories.

deltachi8
05-26-2006, 02:39 PM
I e-mailed PD and was critical of his comparrison of Dunn and Kingman stating their career OBP numbers and that the goal of the offensive player is to accumulate bases while avoiding outs (thank you, Steel).

PD wrote back to say that Dunn and Kingman have many things in common, OB% isnt one of them.

Sorry with all apologies to WOY, i responded with, "Your right, they are both tall and white."

westofyou
05-26-2006, 02:41 PM
How did McCovey not shake out in that comparison?
6'4"

KronoRed
05-26-2006, 05:18 PM
PD wrote back to say that Dunn and Kingman have many things in common, OB% isnt one of them.

Sorry with all apologies to WOY, i responded with, "Your right, they are both tall and white."
Well done :laugh:

It's a pity the Reds can't get someone better to cover them, the bad reporters contribute to the people on 700 bashing all the good players and praising the likes of Womack.

creek14
05-26-2006, 07:28 PM
It must be hard to Adam to fit in his truck. With that lightning rod attached to his head and all.

deltachi8
05-26-2006, 08:51 PM
Well done :laugh:

It's a pity the Reds can't get someone better to cover them, the bad reporters contribute to the people on 700 bashing all the good players and praising the likes of Womack.

of course he wrote back, said i should so some research an dthen called me a smart ass.

So i gave hime some more numbers (Thanks to WOY's posts here) to chew on.

KittyDuran
05-26-2006, 11:25 PM
Well done :laugh:

It's a pity the Reds can't get someone better to cover them, the bad reporters contribute to the people on 700 bashing all the good players and praising the likes of Womack.PD isn't a reporter... :)

Patrick Bateman
05-26-2006, 11:33 PM
I e-mailed PD and was critical of his comparrison of Dunn and Kingman stating their career OBP numbers and that the goal of the offensive player is to accumulate bases while avoiding outs (thank you, Steel).

PD wrote back to say that Dunn and Kingman have many things in common, OB% isnt one of them.

Sorry with all apologies to WOY, i responded with, "Your right, they are both tall and white."

That's funny. I also e-mailed him and haven't heard back yet. It will be interesting if he does, and maybe his response will be different after reading your's.

KronoRed
05-27-2006, 12:54 AM
PD isn't a reporter... :)
Writer then


;)

GAC
05-27-2006, 06:43 AM
It must be hard to Adam to fit in his truck. With that lightning rod attached to his head and all.

He's a good ol' boy from Texas - that's a CB antenna. :lol:

RedsBaron
05-27-2006, 08:23 AM
What's the point in maintaining a faulty perception?

If thats' the case I'll start one.. Adam Dunn reminds me alot of Dan Issel, really tall and white.
How many sacrifice flys did Issel have?;)

cReds1
05-27-2006, 10:12 AM
To me, the main point was, is Dunn worth the amount we are paying him when we are lacking pitching? That is the way I am reading this article.

KronoRed
05-27-2006, 04:34 PM
To me yes he is, he replaced Casey in the 8-10 range, and he'll replace JR in a few years in the 12+ range.

His salary isn't keeping this team from finding pitching.

GAC
05-28-2006, 07:48 AM
And they found guys like Harang and Arroyo cheap. ;)

OnBaseMachine
05-28-2006, 11:07 AM
Push is on to stop pull-hitting Dunn
Defensive shift dares slugger to hit íem where they ainít
Sunday, May 28, 2006

Jim Massie
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

CINCINNATI ó In the seconds Adam Dunn needed to walk from the on-deck circle to the batterís box Tuesday night in Great American Ball Park, the Milwaukee Brewers infield already had completed a minimarch of its own.

Brewers shortstop Bill Hall trotted to the right side of the second base bag. Third baseman Corey Koskie moved into the shortstop hole and second baseman Rickie Weeks took a position in short right field about halfway between Hall and first baseman Prince Fielder.

Such is life against the shift, a defensive setup that is part flesh-and-blood picket fence and part dare to left-handed power hitters such as Dunn. In essence, the Brewers were telling the Reds left fielder that they thought he would pull the ball to the right side of the infield. So go ahead and do it, they sneered, and see if someone doesnít catch it.

The strategy isnít new. But the frequency of how often Dunn is seeing it is.

"I know last year that clubs did it some," manager Jerry Narron said. "But I donít think weíve played anybody here this year that has not done it."

Dunn is keenly aware of when he noticed the change.

"Actually in spring training, the Pirates started to do it and I felt that it was a little weird," he said. "I just guess teams are going to pitch me inside a lot more and thatís where I have a tendency to hit the ball."

It makes perfect sense. Dunn has hit 97 home runs in the past two-plus seasons and is considered a dead pull hitter.

"In the big leagues, thereís a game plan for how to pitch each hitter in the league," Reds hitting coach Chris Chambliss said. "(A shift) is more of an indication of how theyíre going to pitch to you. It means theyíre either going to throw you a lot of inside stuff or off-speed stuff.

"As a hitter, you donít really want to change anything you do because it messes with your stroke. Your stroke is whatever it is."

Even so, a mental aspect to hitting exists and a trick defense adds more for Dunn to think about.

"Itís almost like theyíre inviting you to bunt," he said. "In certain situations, Iíll lay one down. But Iím not going to change my swing because of how the shift is. That doesnít really help us. I donít want to inside-out a pitch that I can hit really good. That kind of defeats the purpose."

Yet it is difficult not to see the wide-open spaces in left field. Ken Griffey Jr. understands. He remembers first facing shifts in his third or fourth season with the Seattle Mariners.

"I had to go through the same thing, the growing pains of understanding the shift," he said. "After a while, you learn if you hit a ball hard enough that theyíre not going to catch it."

Ultimately, he ignored the infielders.

"They canít stop a fly ball," Griffey said. "They canít stop a line drive. All theyíre trying to do is stop ground balls. Thatís all a shift is. Itís them trying to turn those hard-hit ground balls into outs."

And at times it works. Dunn has lost base hits this season to middle infielders playing 20 feet from where they normally do.

"That is frustrating when you hit it right where itís pitched and you donít get anything," Dunn said. "Itís right at the guy. Now, Iím kind of used to it. I just try to hit the ball over it or through it."

Dunn sees an irony in the situation. Before Cincinnati drafted him in 1998, he hit to all fields. The Reds saw a potential home run machine. Pull the ball, they said, and he changed his swing so that he could.

"When youíre 21 or 22 years old, I guess you donít really have a lot of choice," Dunn said. "If I was just coming up now, I know what I would do. But growing up and not playing a lot of baseball and getting thrown into the big leagues so early, thatís just the way it was."

Griffey believes Dunn eventually will ignore the shift and simply hit.

"He just hasnít clicked on hitting the line drives," he said. "You look at his home runs and theyíve been up high. Itís better to have elevated line drives because you get down on the ball and put more backspin on it. Thatís what weíre all waiting on. Heíll come around, get hot and carry the team for a while."

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/reds/reds.php?story=dispatch/2006/05/28/20060528-F14-00.html