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TOBTTReds
05-26-2006, 12:05 PM
Paul Daugherty did an article on Dunn being Dunn on the baseball field. Think it goes with about every thread on here about him. There is actually almost zero info here we didn't know, but worth the read anyway.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060526/SPT04/605260403/1071

osuceltic
05-26-2006, 12:34 PM
Daugherty asks the questions all of us who get labeled Dunn bashers are asking. Is that all? Is it enough? Some say yes, some say no. There is a sense that he could do more with his talent if he wanted. But is that realistic? Is it fair? How you come down on those questions probably determines how you come down on Dunn.

I thought this column was well done, as I do most of Daugherty's stuff.

kyred14
05-26-2006, 12:56 PM
He was doing OK, until he got to that Kingman crap at the end.

Benny-Distefano
05-26-2006, 01:20 PM
"But when he has fallen behind no balls and two strikes this season, Dunn is 0-for-10 with nine strikeouts."



Yikes!!

GoReds
05-26-2006, 01:30 PM
Daugherty asks the questions all of us who get labeled Dunn bashers are asking. Is that all? Is it enough? Some say yes, some say no. There is a sense that he could do more with his talent if he wanted. But is that realistic? Is it fair? How you come down on those questions probably determines how you come down on Dunn.

I thought this column was well done, as I do most of Daugherty's stuff.

Gotta give props here. Probably sums up the chasm between most on this board very succinctly.

TeamBoone
05-26-2006, 01:39 PM
Here's the article; I know some don't like to have to go get it.


Friday, May 26, 2006

Leaving them wanting more
Adam Dunn puts on a show with the longball, but does he aspire to be more than a slugger?
BY PAUL DAUGHERTY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

What do you want from Adam Dunn?

There is a problem with being 6 feet 6, weighing 275 pounds and being a good enough athlete that the University of Texas signed you to play quarterback. It is this:

People are always going to want more.

You hit 40 homers? Great. How many were solo?

You drove in 100 runs? What was your batting average with runners in scoring position?

And by the way: Could you mix in some defense?

Is it fair? Beats me.

If history holds, Dunn will hit at least 40 home runs, drive in 100 runs and score 100 more this season, for the third year in a row. He'll walk at least 100 times. His on-base percentage will be near the 10 best in the National League. He's all of 26 years old.

If that's all there is, OK. As Reds manager Jerry Narron said Wednesday, "That ain't bad."

No, it ain't.

What do you want from Adam Dunn?

It's the $23.5 million question. That's what the Reds would owe Dunn for next season and 2008. That is a lot of money for a pitching-needy, small-revenue club to pay a power hitter.

We've had these discussions for four years, or about as long as Dunn has been a Red. Maybe we should stop. Because for everyone who thinks Dunn has the skills to be a great player, there are as many who think being great isn't what drives him. Often, it's the same people offering both arguments.

Unless you are blessed with supernatural skills, greatness is a mindset. You respect your talent by using all of it. What you lack in skill, you make up for with effort. If being the best drives you, nothing is as important.

Until Narron rested him Wednesday, Dunn was the only Red to play in every game this season. The last several days, he took early batting practice. You never hear a peep from him about switching positions. He doesn't say much when allegedly ill-informed media people crack on his game.

Yet he affects an air of indifference. Dunn has said the worst advice he ever got came from former Reds general manager Jim Bowden, who told him he should pull the ball more. Yet some opponents are shifting all four infielders between first base and second base when the left-handed-hitting Dunn appears at the plate.

He has worked with Reds hitting coach Chris Chambliss, who has urged Dunn to use more of the field and to adjust his plate approach depending on the count he's facing. But when he has fallen behind no balls and two strikes this season, Dunn is 0-for-10 with nine strikeouts.

Yeah, but ...

Dunn leads the Reds in homers. He's tied for the team lead in RBI and second in runs. What more do you want?

If he took pitches to left field ... if he were more aggressive at the plate ... if he put in more time working on his defense ...

I wanted to ask Dunn about all that. He didn't want to talk, at least not to me. Maybe especially not to me. Fair enough. I'm not exactly the president of the Dunner Fan Club. Regardless, the temptation is to suggest Dunn is OK with who he is, and we should be, too.

Dunn is, to most, a genial good ol' boy from a small town 40 miles north of Houston, where everybody knows everybody and where generations of his family have lived. He has that laconic, laid back air familiar to Texans. If the burden of talent and potential bugs him, you'd never know. If ever anyone was born to fish for bass in a pond, it's Adam Dunn.

If Dunn were older, it would be easier to say he was following the career path blazed by Dave Kingman. If he were 36 instead of 26, we all would be urging him to write "designated hitter" on his tax returns. We'd be looking at that size and athleticism and wondering, "Is that all there is?" even as he approaches 500 homers.

But he's only arriving at his best. What he chooses to do with it is anyone's guess.

deltachi8
05-26-2006, 01:43 PM
Anyone who compares Adam Dunn to Dave Kingman does not have a fundamental understanding of offensive baseball.

KittyDuran
05-26-2006, 02:09 PM
Anyone who compares Adam Dunn to Dave Kingman does not have a fundamental understanding of offensive baseball.PD is only comparing Dunn to Kingman if he was older and how easy it would be for him and others to try to figure Dunn out...


If Dunn were older, it would be easier to say he was following the career path blazed by Dave Kingman.

I don't have a problem with that sentence... good article and pretty much sums up the Dunn "problem" on this forum...

westofyou
05-26-2006, 02:12 PM
I don't have a problem with that sentence...Dave was a non base obtaining, power hitter and a surly pud of a man, who played himself through 4 cities.

Other than being tall, striking out and hitting HR's the comparison is false.

How about starting with Frank Howard and going from there?

Oh.. that's right Dave Kingman was a big disappointment as a ballplayer... I see where he's taking it.

KittyDuran
05-26-2006, 02:20 PM
Dave was a non base obtaining, power hitter and a surly pud of a man, who played himself through 4 cities.

Other than being tall, striking out and hitting HR's the comparison is false.

How about starting with Frank Howard and going from there?

Oh.. that's right Dave Kingman was a big disappointment as a ballplayer... I see where he's taking it.Oh, I agree with you on Kingman (and so does PD, no doubt). But the difference that PD points that it would be easier for him to compare Dunn to Kingman if only Dunn was older - BUT HE IS NOT, so the comparsions are not there. I do get the sense from the article that PD is a little dissappointed that he can't use that comparsion because it would make figuring Dunn out so much easier - but then he wouldn't have an article to write, would he?

So what you are saying is that you would feel better about the article if Frank Howard's name was in the sentence instead of Kingman? Or should the sentence be completely taken out?

Are we reading the same article here? ;)

westofyou
05-26-2006, 02:22 PM
Oh, I agree with you on Kingman (and so does PD, no doubt). But the difference that PD points that it would be easier for him to compare Dunn to Kingman if only Dunn was older - BUT HE IS NOT, so the comparsions are not there. I do get the sense from the article that PD is a little dissappointed that he can't use that comparsion because it would make figuring Dunn out so much easier - but then he wouldn't have an article to write, would he?

So what you are saying is that you would feel better about the article if Frank Howard's name was in the sentence instead of Kingman? Or should the sentence be completely taken out?

Are we reading the same article here? ;)

I'm saying that even at the same age the comparison is ridiculous.

And yes I'd feel better if Howard was mentioned, Dave Kingman is the metaphor for failed power hitter, his longevity was attributed to nothing but power.

It's a bogus comparison, period.


DAVE KINGMAN

AGE <= 25

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1971 Giants 22 41 115 17 32 10 2 6 5.22 24 9 35 5 0 .278 .557 .328 .885
1972 Giants 23 135 472 65 106 17 4 29 6.14 83 51 140 16 6 .225 .462 .303 .765
1973 Giants 24 112 305 54 62 10 1 24 7.87 55 41 122 8 5 .203 .479 .300 .779
1974 Giants 25 121 350 41 78 18 2 18 5.14 55 37 125 8 8 .223 .440 .302 .742
TOTALS 409 1242 177 278 55 9 77 6.20 217 138 422 37 19 .224 .469 .304 .773
LG AVERAGE 1296 160 337 52 9 29 2.26 148 132 187 22 12 .260 .382 .329 .711
POS AVERAGE 1292 160 329 55 6 43 3.35 178 152 221 11 8 .255 .408 .334 .742

YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS
1971 Giants 22 8 5 .695 6.75 64 18 .278 .400 .602 0 1 0 3 2 88 128 1B
1972 Giants 66 5 3 .529 4.63 218 50 .237 .379 .516 2 4 0 4 9 385 531 3B
1973 Giants 42 -3 -5 .458 4.38 146 35 .275 .436 .526 3 2 1 2 8 259 351 3B
1974 Giants 43 -9 -15 .406 3.99 154 38 .217 .346 .476 2 3 2 1 8 291 393 1B
TOTALS 173 1 -12 .495 4.57 582 141 .245 .386 .515 7 10 3 10 27 1023 1403
LG AVERAGE 165 0 0 .500 4.36 495 91 .122 .241 .425 17 8 11 11 30 1023 1457
POS AVERAGE 177 11 0 .522 4.67 527 105 .153 .279 .449 17 9 7 13 32 1023 1473





ADAM DUNN

AGE <= 25

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
2001 Reds 21 66 244 54 64 18 1 19 7.79 43 38 74 4 2 .262 .578 .371 .948
2002 Reds 22 158 535 84 133 28 2 26 4.86 71 128 170 19 9 .249 .454 .400 .854
2003 Reds 23 116 381 70 82 12 1 27 7.09 57 74 126 8 2 .215 .465 .354 .819
2004 Reds 24 161 568 105 151 34 0 46 8.10 102 108 195 6 1 .266 .569 .388 .956
2005 Reds 25 160 543 107 134 35 2 40 7.37 101 114 168 4 2 .247 .540 .387 .927
TOTALS 661 2271 420 564 127 6 158 6.96 374 462 733 41 16 .248 .518 .383 .901
LG AVERAGE 2267 313 608 123 13 73 3.23 298 231 418 38 17 .268 .431 .340 .771
POS AVERAGE 2295 347 627 132 13 97 4.23 351 292 465 36 16 .273 .469 .359 .828

YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS
2001 Reds 53 17 9 .666 7.69 141 38 .316 .488 .633 2 4 0 0 4 186 286 RF
2002 Reds 105 20 0 .595 6.70 243 56 .206 .480 .566 13 9 1 3 8 423 676 LF
2003 Reds 68 9 6 .566 5.94 177 40 .249 .465 .561 8 10 0 4 4 309 469 LF
2004 Reds 129 52 39 .721 8.18 323 80 .303 .504 .636 11 5 0 0 8 426 681 LF
2005 Reds 120 36 25 .660 7.73 293 77 .293 .510 .618 14 12 0 2 6 419 671 LF
TOTALS 475 134 79 .647 7.27 1177 291 .270 .491 .602 48 40 1 9 30 1763 2783
LG AVERAGE 336 0 0 .500 5.14 976 209 .163 .281 .472 23 25 16 18 54 1763 2557
POS AVERAGE 396 60 0 .575 6.07 1077 242 .196 .339 .518 39 25 10 18 50 1763 2640

KittyDuran
05-26-2006, 02:29 PM
I'm saying that even at the same age the comparison is ridiculous.
But PD is not saying the same age, only if Dunn were older. So the comparsion is not even there.

BTW, how do you feel about the rest of the article? :)

westofyou
05-26-2006, 02:50 PM
But PD is not saying the same age, only if Dunn were older. So the comparsion is not even there.

BTW, how do you feel about the rest of the article? :)
It's snipey IMO, he pretty much implies that despite the talent he's yet to reach a level that pleases Mr Daughtery, who says "I'm not exactly the president of the Dunner Fan Club."

No duh...

Sportswriters generally begin their analysis with a position on an issue, I too have many issues that I advocate from time to time, but I'll do them by climbing through the numbers and coming out through that door.

PD looks to me like he knew his position before he wrote a word, and no amount of numbers or distancing himself from the visage he knows as Adam Dunn will change that.

dabvu2498
05-26-2006, 02:57 PM
"But when he has fallen behind no balls and two strikes this season, Dunn is 0-for-10 with nine strikeouts."



Yikes!!

That is pretty amazing.

TeamBoone
05-26-2006, 03:17 PM
I'm wondering how many times he's worked the 0-2 count to 3-2... I don't know how to find it.

westofyou
05-26-2006, 03:23 PM
That is pretty amazing.

Not really.


WMP 12 times and 10 K's

The human walk machine - 13 times 8 K's

Jim Thome 8 times 5 k's

Chase utley 11 times 8 K's

Pat Burell 8 times 7 K's

Arod 13 times 8 K's

Giambi 8 times 6 K's

Edmonds 7 times and 6 K's

dabvu2498
05-26-2006, 03:34 PM
I'm wondering how many times he's worked the 0-2 count to 3-2... I don't know how to find it.
And I was wondering how many of them were 3 pitch K's. I can't find that either.

osuceltic
05-26-2006, 03:38 PM
It's snipey IMO, he pretty much implies that despite the talent he's yet to reach a level that pleases Mr Daughtery, who says "I'm not exactly the president of the Dunner Fan Club."

No duh...

Sportswriters generally begin their analysis with a position on an issue, I too have many issues that I advocate from time to time, but I'll do them by climbing through the numbers and coming out through that door.

PD looks to me like he knew his position before he wrote a word, and no amount of numbers or distancing himself from the visage he knows as Adam Dunn will change that.
It's a column. Good columnists take positions. Bad columnists regurgitate statistics. You can agree or disagree, but at least you think about a column that tries to argue a point.

What exactly was unfair about that column? Are you angry just because Dave Kingman's name was mentioned? Because you feel comparing Dunn to a low-average, high-strikeout, defensively inadequate power hitter was unfair? Even though he really didn't make that comparison? Or is anything that questions Adam Dunn unfair? Because I think this column did a pretty good job of summarizing the questions that polarize Reds fans when it comes to Dunn.

SandyD
05-26-2006, 03:44 PM
PD looks to me like he knew his position before he wrote a word, and no amount of numbers or distancing himself from the visage he knows as Adam Dunn will change that.

I think that's exactly what he did. Something like writing an "in-class" essay for freshman comp rather than a research paper. You don't have sources available, so you have to write off the top of your head.

SandyD
05-26-2006, 03:58 PM
It's a column. Good columnists take positions. Bad columnists regurgitate statistics. You can agree or disagree, but at least you think about a column that tries to argue a point.

What exactly was unfair about that column? Are you angry just because Dave Kingman's name was mentioned? Because you feel comparing Dunn to a low-average, high-strikeout, defensively inadequate power hitter was unfair? Even though he really didn't make that comparison? Or is anything that questions Adam Dunn unfair? Because I think this column did a pretty good job of summarizing the questions that polarize Reds fans when it comes to Dunn.

A good column would give evidence of his position ... statistical or otherwise. And perhaps offers some course of action.

PD here is simply stating an opinion that Dunn is something of a disappointment given his level of talent. If you wanted to make that argument, you'd have to at least offer evidence of where you think Dunn should be. Not just point out his shortcomings. And why you think he he could/should be there. And how you think he could get there. That's analysis.

KittyDuran
05-26-2006, 04:07 PM
It's a column. Good columnists take positions. Bad columnists regurgitate statistics. You can agree or disagree, but at least you think about a column that tries to argue a point.

What exactly was unfair about that column? Are you angry just because Dave Kingman's name was mentioned? Because you feel comparing Dunn to a low-average, high-strikeout, defensively inadequate power hitter was unfair? Even though he really didn't make that comparison? Or is anything that questions Adam Dunn unfair? Because I think this column did a pretty good job of summarizing the questions that polarize Reds fans when it comes to Dunn.THANK YOU! [and you get rep points]. PD is a columnist is the basic sense of the word - he writes on a variety of stuff - something like a jack of all trades but a master of none columnist. I really think that he must read RedsZone... :)

osuceltic
05-26-2006, 04:18 PM
THANK YOU! [and you get rep points].
Wow! Can I cash those in like frequent flyer miles?

(Thanks!)

KittyDuran
05-26-2006, 04:20 PM
It's snipey IMO, he pretty much implies that despite the talent he's yet to reach a level that pleases Mr Daughtery, who says "I'm not exactly the president of the Dunner Fan Club."

No duh...

Sportswriters generally begin their analysis with a position on an issue, I too have many issues that I advocate from time to time, but I'll do them by climbing through the numbers and coming out through that door.

PD looks to me like he knew his position before he wrote a word, and no amount of numbers or distancing himself from the visage he knows as Adam Dunn will change that.Agreed - no problem with that. :thumbup: But the article hits on all points Dunn - which is hashed and rehashed each day on this forum. That's what I like about it. :)

westofyou
05-26-2006, 04:24 PM
What exactly was unfair about that column? Are you angry just because Dave Kingman's name was mentioned?

I never said it was "unfair" and I never said I was "angry"

I said it was "snipey" as in it he really did nothing more than stoke the flames, he mentioned he "wasn't" a fan. Which in my mind means he already had a position on the issue.

As for Dave Kingman, I think it's a inept comparison.

Want to talk indifferent fielders?

How about Reggie Jackson?

Oh that's right, he's not tall and white.

osuceltic
05-26-2006, 04:41 PM
PD looks to me like he knew his position before he wrote a word, and no amount of numbers or distancing himself from the visage he knows as Adam Dunn will change that.
But better defense, better clutch hitting and fewer strikeouts might change that. Some people believe there are "lies, damn lies and statistics." And there's some truth to that.

And maybe, just maybe, his position doesn't need to be changed.


How about Reggie Jackson?

Oh that's right, he's not tall and white.
Or criticized by his team's fans for failing in the clutch.

Come on, WOY ... that's beneath you.

See, his column nailed the pulse of Reds fans on Adam Dunn. Does Daugherty have his own opinion? Absolutely, but he's asking the questions all of us are asking (OK, not all of us ... some consider Dunn a sacred cow never to be questioned).

westofyou
05-26-2006, 04:52 PM
But better defense, better clutch hitting and fewer strikeouts might change that. Some people believe there are "lies, damn lies and statistics." And there's some truth to that.

And maybe, just maybe, his position doesn't need to be changed.


Or criticized by his team's fans for failing in the clutch.

Come on, WOY ... that's beneath you.

See, his column nailed the pulse of Reds fans on Adam Dunn. Does Daugherty have his own opinion? Absolutely, but he's asking the questions all of us are asking (OK, not all of us ... some consider Dunn a sacred cow never to be questioned).
Hey, Dunn's game is full of valid questions.

I just feel that some need to be applied to a 26 year old and not a seasoned 35 year old.

It's always Kingman and Deer from people who think the statistics "lie" I guess I'd think they lied to if they keep saying Schmidt/Killebrew/Jackson/Howard and not the aforementioned free swingers.

Question all you want, but comp him correctly is all I'm asking for.

pedro
05-26-2006, 04:53 PM
Sounds to me like Paul D'oh-erty doesn't have the balls to say what he really wants.

osuceltic
05-26-2006, 05:13 PM
Hey, Dunn's game is full of valid questions.

I just feel that some need to be applied to a 26 year old and not a seasoned 35 year old.

It's always Kingman and Deer from people who think the statistics "lie" I guess I'd think they lied to if they keep saying Schmidt/Killebrew/Jackson/Howard and not the aforementioned free swingers.

Question all you want, but comp him correctly is all I'm asking for.
And that's just it. You say those are correct comps for Dunn, and some people -- Daugherty obviously included -- think it's nuts to compare him to those guys.

You say "comp him correctly" but what you mean is "comp him the way I do."

I can't speak to Killebrew or Howard, but I can provide some perspective on Schmidt and Jackson. And I'd argue that comparing him to those guys doesn't help your argument. Because if the stats say they're the same, then anyone who has seen all three is going to disregard those stats.

Clearly Dave Kingman isn't the perfect comparison. Neither is Reggie Jackson or Mike Schmidt. There is a lot of room in between.

KittyDuran
05-26-2006, 05:16 PM
I just feel that some need to be applied to a 26 year old and not a seasoned 35 year old. But he wasn't comparing Dunn to Kingman!!! :bang:

dabvu2498
05-26-2006, 05:17 PM
Sounds to me like Paul D'oh-erty doesn't have the balls to say what he really wants.
I agree. And that's why Jim Rome (I can't believe I'm referencing Jim Rome) called the Cincy media "soft." I happen to agree with Rome on this one and only point.

westofyou
05-26-2006, 05:18 PM
I can't speak to Killebrew or Howard, but I can provide some perspective on Schmidt and Jackson. And I'd argue that comparing him to those guys doesn't help your argument. Because if the stats say they're the same, then anyone who has seen all three is going to disregard those stats.I can too, and Mike Schmidt in the mid 70's is Adam Dunn at the plate and Reggie Jacksons 1971 season with RISP is as well.

You say "comp him correctly" but what you mean is "comp him the way I do."
I've seen them all play and Dunn is more like them then many here would care to admit.


MIKE SCHMIDT

AGE <= 26

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1972 Phillies 22 13 34 2 7 0 0 1 2.94 3 5 15 0 0 .206 .294 .325 .619
1973 Phillies 23 132 367 43 72 11 0 18 4.90 52 62 136 8 2 .196 .373 .324 .697
1974 Phillies 24 162 568 108 160 28 7 36 6.34 116 106 138 23 12 .282 .546 .395 .941
1975 Phillies 25 158 562 93 140 34 3 38 6.76 95 101 180 29 12 .249 .523 .367 .890
1976 Phillies 26 160 584 112 153 31 4 38 6.51 107 100 149 14 9 .262 .524 .376 .900
TOTALS 625 2115 358 532 104 14 131 6.19 373 374 618 74 35 .252 .500 .369 .869
LG AVERAGE 2126 265 560 89 15 44 2.05 245 219 290 42 21 .263 .381 .333 .714
POS AVERAGE 2120 269 549 92 13 53 2.52 260 241 321 26 17 .259 .390 .337 .727


REGGIE JACKSON

AGE <= 26

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1967 A's 21 35 118 13 21 4 4 1 0.85 6 10 46 1 1 .178 .305 .269 .574
1968 A's 22 154 553 82 138 13 6 29 5.24 74 50 171 14 4 .250 .452 .316 .768
1969 A's 23 152 549 123 151 36 3 47 8.56 118 114 142 13 5 .275 .608 .410 1.018
1970 A's 24 149 426 57 101 21 2 23 5.40 66 75 135 26 17 .237 .458 .359 .817
1971 A's 25 150 567 87 157 29 3 32 5.64 80 63 161 16 10 .277 .508 .352 .860
1972 A's 26 135 499 72 132 25 2 25 5.01 75 59 125 9 8 .265 .473 .350 .823
TOTALS 775 2712 434 700 128 20 157 5.79 419 371 780 79 45 .258 .494 .355 .849
LG AVERAGE 2655 311 664 101 16 64 2.41 290 273 402 40 25 .250 .372 .322 .694
POS AVERAGE 2690 352 695 110 19 83 3.08 326 279 440 54 32 .258 .406 .330 .737

ADAM DUNN


YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
2001 Reds 21 66 244 54 64 18 1 19 7.79 43 38 74 4 2 .262 .578 .371 .948
2002 Reds 22 158 535 84 133 28 2 26 4.86 71 128 170 19 9 .249 .454 .400 .854
2003 Reds 23 116 381 70 82 12 1 27 7.09 57 74 126 8 2 .215 .465 .354 .819
2004 Reds 24 161 568 105 151 34 0 46 8.10 102 108 195 6 1 .266 .569 .388 .956
2005 Reds 25 160 543 107 134 35 2 40 7.37 101 114 168 4 2 .247 .540 .387 .927
TOTALS 661 2271 420 564 127 6 158 6.96 374 462 733 41 16 .248 .518 .383 .901
LG AVERAGE 2267 313 608 123 13 73 3.23 298 231 418 38 17 .268 .431 .340 .771
POS AVERAGE 2295 347 627 132 13 97 4.23 351 292 465 36 16 .273 .469 .359 .828

westofyou
05-26-2006, 05:19 PM
But he wasn't comparing Dunn to Kingman!!! :bang:

Right, he just left the door open so you could see the glare from the light he was working under.


If Dunn were older, it would be easier to say he was following the career path blazed by Dave Kingman. If he were 36 instead of 26, we all would be urging him to write "designated hitter" on his tax returns. We'd be looking at that size and athleticism and wondering, "Is that all there is?" even as he approaches 500 homers.

KittyDuran
05-26-2006, 05:20 PM
I'm getting a massive headache with this thread... trying to read between the lines (and I'm pretty neutral on Dunn)...:help: This fan is going to the game tonight - bleacher seats - should I wear a helmet? ;)

dabvu2498
05-26-2006, 05:22 PM
I like the Reggie Jackson comparison. The Mike Schmidt one... not so much.

In 36 fewer games, Schmidt had 1 fewer RBI and 115 fewer K's.

Hap
05-26-2006, 05:32 PM
I, personally, think Dunn's defense in LF is improving greatly. HE is playing much better on balls hit in front of him.

I just wish he could (a) cut down on his K's, and (b) hit for a higher average and hit more doubles.

westofyou
05-26-2006, 05:37 PM
I, personally, think Dunn's defense in LF is improving greatly. HE is playing much better on balls hit in front of him.

I just wish he could (a) cut down on his K's, and (b) hit for a higher average and hit more doubles.
I agree, his defense has improved from earlier this season. He also needs those doubles, they are needed, 30 at least. Dunns slumps are pretty ugly, they always involve higher K rates and diminished batting average with a huge lack of doubles. If he finishes the season with 20 doubles then he'll end up hitting around .215 again and that would be a setback.

Team Clark
05-26-2006, 10:09 PM
When the Andre Thornton and Rob Deer comparisons come out, everybody will have somehting to complain about.

I saw recently where Rob Deer is a hitting coach.

westofyou
05-26-2006, 10:18 PM
When the Andre Thornton and Rob Deer comparisons come out, everybody will have somehting to complain about.

I saw recently where Rob Deer is a hitting coach.
Rob was coaching here in Portland for the Padres a few years ago.

Andre wasn't bad, but not a guy I'd want to overpay.

What happened to him in 1980?

Freaky Andre fact.


1979 - 1 walk every 5.7
1980 - ??
1981 - 1 walk every 9.8
1982 - 1 walk every 5.4
1983 - 1 walk every 5.8
1983 - 1 walk every 6.4
1983 - 1 walk every 9.8

dabvu2498
05-26-2006, 10:25 PM
Perhaps D'oh-erty can write a negative column on him every day. Three hits I'll take. Hey, I'll bash him if it helps get his BA over .250. That would take a lot of bashing. (Maybe that's another hit!)

In fact, his AB in the 9th tonight...

Ltlabner
05-26-2006, 10:27 PM
This was a decent article, I suppose and it touches on a lot of the issues that get discussed regualry in here and around Reds land. Again, it seems to focus more on Dunn's percieved attitudes, how he appears to behave and how PD thinks he should/shouldn't act. That's fine and it's his right, but the article doesn't really go deeper than the typical line on Dunn. Lots of HR, lots of walks, lots of Ks. We want more!

indyred
05-27-2006, 12:35 AM
Dunn reminds me personality wise of Kent Hrbek. Herbie seemed to never get really upset. Just as long as he had his time to go fishing, he was happy. Hrbek's big problem was he never really stayed in shape and could have played another 5-7 more seasons if he did and could have put up better numbers. He retired at a somewhat young age. I remember him saying he made enough money and didn't have desire to play anymore or put the work in to stay in shape. I believe he never came back after the big strike in 94......I hope Dunn plays a long time. To me he should easily get in 600 HR club.....

RAS
05-27-2006, 06:16 AM
I think with his poor defense in the outfield people are starting to question his conditioning and playing weight and I think it is a legitimate concern. I would prefer seeing the Reds trade Dunn for pitching before he comes in to spring training at close to 300 lbs in the next couple years. I was pleasantly surprised to see him get 3 hits and even go the other way a couple times.

TeamBoone
05-27-2006, 11:05 AM
I think with his poor defense in the outfield people are starting to question his conditioning and playing weight and I think it is a legitimate concern.

Dunn's outfield defense may be average or even a bit below average, but it's certainly not poor. Not only that, but he's improved significantly since that fateful opening day, which is all most seem to remember.

saboforthird
05-27-2006, 10:24 PM
Dunn reminds me personality wise of Kent Hrbek. Herbie seemed to never get really upset. Just as long as he had his time to go fishing, he was happy. Hrbek's big problem was he never really stayed in shape and could have played another 5-7 more seasons if he did and could have put up better numbers. He retired at a somewhat young age. I remember him saying he made enough money and didn't have desire to play anymore or put the work in to stay in shape. I believe he never came back after the big strike in 94......I hope Dunn plays a long time. To me he should easily get in 600 HR club.....

Just you wait and see, Dunn will wind up playing football, become a professional fisherman or something. It's fun to watch him hit HR's. It's not fun to watch him as a player, in general. Just one man's opinion.

TeamBoone
05-28-2006, 11:53 AM
From Sporting News:


Adam Dunn, Reds (8). Whine all you want about Dunn's average, but I see a guy who is hitting .370 with five homers and seven RBIs this season against next week's opponents (Cubs, Astros).

Cooper
05-28-2006, 12:46 PM
WOY: re: Thorton and 1980--didn't his wife die i a car crash or something to that effect? Maybe he took the year off cause of grief -family issues.