View Full Version : When does attitude overshadow production?

05-26-2006, 10:16 PM
A few weeks back in a game thread On Base Machine suggested the Reds try to trade for Devil Rays AAA outfielder Elijah Dukes. After looking at this stats, I agreed without a doubt that we should. His stats were so good infact, that it got me wondering why he isn't in the bigs yet.

Let's compare Dukes to Gathright

Gathright (MLB):
.189 BA
.308 OBP
.213 SLG
.521 OPS
10 SB
3 CS
Good defensuve range

Dukes (AAA):
.322 BA
.416 OBP
.572 SLG
.988 OPS
6 HR
28 RBI
3 SB
3 CS
very good defender

So why is it that Gathright is the Rays' starting CF and Dukes in AAA?

Well let's take a look at Dukes' personal problems.
Arrested for assault
Ejected from several games
Suspended for the amount of ejections
Turned down the AAA all-star game because he is only a backup

So the question I pose to you is when does attitude overshadow production? Gathright granted is young, but he is flat out terrible. It seems in almost any other situation Dukes would be up at least getting some PT in CF.

Brandon Phillips was thought to have attitude problems when we traded, I don't think they were quiet this sevre, but he still had attitude problems. Depending on the asking price, would you be interested in the Reds getting Dukes?

05-26-2006, 10:17 PM

05-26-2006, 10:49 PM

05-26-2006, 11:08 PM
If a team has real strong leadership and personnel that will quickly set a kid straight when he shows an attitude or screws up, then I think it's ok to bring him on board. If you don't have that leadership, you could be in trouble and we may be seeing the results in the Bengals

05-27-2006, 11:39 AM
Ah, Ron LeFlore..the only guy to lead the AL, NL and the penitenciary League in SB!

WEHT LeFlore...BTW, he had himself a pretty decent career all things considered.

05-27-2006, 10:53 PM
For those of us who are not so familiar with the sins of these two would be superstars can you tell us what they did, what held them back and what they would have projected to be had they stayed out of their trouble?

I remember Ron LeFlore but only because I would get a ton of his cards in TOPPS when I was a kid.

05-27-2006, 11:20 PM
For those of us who are not so familiar with the sins of these two would be superstars can you tell us what they did, what held them back and what they would have projected to be had they stayed out of their trouble?

I remember Ron LeFlore but only because I would get a ton of his cards in TOPPS when I was a kid.

Leflore was born in Detroit and was involved in the criminal justice system at an early age. In the book Breakout: From Prison to the Big Leagues Leflore relates growing up in a crime ridden section of Detroit. Although his parents were married, his father was an unemployed alcoholic who rarely took part in family life. His mother was a hard working nurses aide that held the family together financially and physically, even feeding Ron while a heroin addict and small-time drug dealer. He credits his motherís compassion for his survival during this period. At twelve, he began to have sex with local prostitutes and soon after he was introduced to shooting heroin in a neighbourhood shooting gallery. He dropped out of school and spent many nights breaking into the Stroh's Brewery on Gratiot Avenue, stealing beer and getting drunk with friends. After dropping out of school he played no organized sports and rarely followed the Tigers, although he had been to Tiger Stadium, sitting in the upper bleachers with his father, on one occasion as a kid. First arrested at fifteen, he was ultimately sentenced to 5-15 years in state prison at Jackson for armed robbery.

Incarcerated, the first organized baseball league LeFlore played in was for inmates. Billy Martin, the legendary New York Yankee player and manager, then manager of the Detroit Tigers, was lured to Michigan State Prison by another inmate who knew Martin. The unorthodox Martin witnessed LeFlore's speed and strength, something that bloomed after LeFlore had given up drugs and drinking inside prison. Incredibly, Martin helped LeFlore get permission for day-parole and a try out at Tiger Stadium. In the summer of 1973, the convict impressed Tigers' management and the team signed him to contract in July, which enabled him to meet the conditions for parole. Martin, the man who gave LeFlore his break, was fired in August of that same year for telling Tiger pitchers to throw at opposing hitters; he was replaced by Joe Schultz. Ralph Houk was LeFlore's manager subsequently. Originally, LeFlore, a twenty-six year old rookie, was assigned to the Tigers' AA affiliate, but by the end of the 1973 season he was playing for the Triple A Toledo Mudhens. The following season he made the Major League club and by 1975 was a starting outfielder.


05-28-2006, 12:35 PM
Dukes isn't being kept in AAA because of his attitude. He's being kept there so as not to start his service clock. B.J. Upton and Delmon Young are in the same situation (and Young's mentally checked out at the moment). The D-Rays might look to advance Wes Bankston and Ryan Christianson so that they enter the bigs along with Upton, Dukes and Young, putting them all on a similar arbitration clock.

Also, Rocco Baldelli is working through his rehab and will soon take over the CF job in Tampa Bay. I think Baldelli, along with Carl Crawford, is incredibly overrated and I'd be looking to deal both to clear room for Dukes and Young.

The D-Rays actually have a lot of sour-to-bad attitudes kicking around (Johnny Gomes is no sweetheart). IMO they should market that. Tampa Bay is a tough, crime-ridden city. Drops the "Rays" from the name and call the team the Devils and turn the franchise into the Raiders of baseball. "This is the team your mother warned you about." That's got a nice ring to it.

05-28-2006, 06:57 PM
Baldelli is injury prone, and just signed a long term deal for a good chunk of change, I think it would be hard to trade him. I don't think they would deal Crawford just because it would drive away some of the little fanbase they already have.

I bet you could get Dukes for a decent price.