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Newman4
05-30-2006, 11:40 PM
You know, this discussion leaves me with a bad taste from many "old timers". I'm not really that knowledgeable as to the "mission" "vision" "foundations" etc. etc. on which this place was "founded". But, it's not like you're writing the Constitution here. It's a message board for heaven's sake. My feeling I'm getting is there's some new members in your neighborhood that yell, fight, cuss and don't always get along and you seem to wanna "tighten the reins a little" and get them to leave. Just because they don't do things the way you perceive to be correct then you call them out as wrong and make rules and invent consequences to try and control them although as you can see it's a losing battle. There's no such thing as a utopia and that's because everyone has a different idea of what that is. Reds fans are a cross section of society and there's some people you like and some you don't. You learn to deal with both and go on or you'll go nuts. I work in education and I'll be the first to tell you that if your rules are not based an accepted norm by the population and/or the consequences for breaking the rules is not appropriate then the behavior control system will not work.
I came here take just plain talk Reds. It's by far the biggest Reds discussion board. The posting format is convenient. I'm here because it's where the most Reds fans are online. However, I'm not here because I'm drawn by the "intelligence" of the other posters. In fact, that claim sounds rather conceited. I don't care if you have rep points or fifty different forums. Not important. I can't always be at the game so this is the next best thing. When I post here I feel as though it should be similar to talking sports at a sports bar, breakroom at work or at the game. You have people who are smart, some not so smart, some who can tell you every stat ever invented and some that say 'ahh he sucks' and leave it at that, some people complain about the same crap everyday and some argue. Who cares? As long as they're not hurting each other then leave them alone. Most people are not "censored" in everyday life that live in the USA. You don't go to a game and hear a guy boo Danny Graves and ask him to prove his displeasure statistically. If you're at a game and someone says 'Dunn strikes out too much' every at bat of the game, you don't ask the usher to make them leave. When I get 'negative rep points'(whatever that means) for saying a player 'sucks' or get '20% Warn' (again, whatever that means) for griping about George G. then I have to laugh. Trying to impose all these rules and discriminating against those different from you will only lose you some good Reds that give the board a different flavor and make things interesting. I've never got into a pissing match with anyone here but I don't mind arguing my point. Even though I teach mathematics I have learned a ton about stats from this place. I'm a competative individual and sometimes that side takes control and I rant a little. It's my passion coming out. Guys, respect everyone, even those that are different.

westofyou
05-30-2006, 11:40 PM
Seems the old-timers (and those that want to be) here have a problem with the truth getting out.

Truth?

You've been a member of this site for this month only, what do you know about it really?

The history of the server? the money drives to keep the site up, the down time? The way the site started, and what sites the oldest members came from and why they left those sites?????

Do you have any idea what the site is like in the off season

Please spend a little time around here before you start telling us what to do and how the "truth" is.

paintmered
05-30-2006, 11:42 PM
Everybody stop with the finger pointing and the name calling!!

This is the exact thing that was NOT to happen in this thread per Boss's directions.

If you don't want to be a part of the solution, then get out of the way of those who do. I think it would be a shame and a sad state of affairs to have to close this thread.

griffeyfreak4
05-30-2006, 11:42 PM
I think you're taking it overboard more than a little bit. The only thing that's been done is two separate game threads have been created. Literally that's been the only change.

It's been done because a lot of folks who've been around long enough to know thought the quality of the game threads would improve that way. They were right. This hasn't been done to excluded you or to make you feel insignificant. It's an online baseball site, it really shouldn't have that kind of power over you anyway.

As for respect, I don't not respect you, but I don't really know you. If you stick around long enough, people will get to know you better. I mean, when you move to a new town you don't expect to get invited to every party as soon as you show up. It's the same here.
Did I ask to get invited to every party!!?? No, I asked for respect, and for you guys to stop belittling us, not to get a free pass to ORG, and I'm not understanding why you keep interpreting my posts this way.

The Baumer
05-30-2006, 11:47 PM
The mini-flood gates have been opened it seems, so I will say me 2 cents in naming names.

M2 and SteelSD. Those two names stick out most in my head as people who have consistently been involved in personal arguments. Chances are if there is a thread closed on RedsZone, M2 has posted in it at least 3 times. SteelSD is a bit behind in that regards but I've seen him snipe at folks and go digging through the RedsZone archives looking for dirty blackmail posts. These two people are active participants of these same problems they are telling us to ignore and "relax" over. They can't resist the temptation of joining in a good dog fight. Whenever an argument springs up they pop in and drop their 'knowledge'.

So when these two guys and the several others who do the same stuff come on here and try to tell others to "adapt or leave", it makes me laugh. They get everyone else so heated that they begin a tyrade (like this one) and then take a step back, sip on their tea, and smile. "What's all the hullaballoo about fellas?" "Why the long faces?"

What is disheartening is that no mods or people that have "earned respect" will admit what I have just said. They can't, because "earning respect" means kissing up to those above you and getting on their good side. The ideal RedsZone they are talking about, the one where knowledgeable posters contribute and earn respect, is a RedsZone where everyone kneels to them and ignores their mistakes. Anyone who disagrees with them is a "board cancer" and "what is wrong with this board".

Ga_Red
05-30-2006, 11:48 PM
One man's pov.:

1) Both RZ and its owners are the creme de la creme!
2) Re: rep points
....a. I totally misunderstood its purpose. I thought it was
.......a technique for one to express approval/disapproval
.......of the type of post that was being critiqued.
.......I had no idea of making a comment about the poster.
.......So I negged some comedic forays, some sarcasm,
.......some thead hijacks and whatever personal attacks I
.......saw. I approved those who were esp thoughtful, a
.......pbp provider I thought exceptional, and those who
.......went above and beyond the call in posting articles
.......from off site or updates on draft/farm system. I gave an
.......opinion on both the kind of stuff I'd like to see more of
.......and less of, never referencing or making a characterization
.......of the poster. Every neg was taken personally, w/o
.......exception. and some of the approvals as well.
.......One long time RZ poster emailed me and said he and his friends
.......would retaliate in the future if he received another neg.
......Some called me names, others found my last post( a link to
......an off site newpaper article) and all retaliated with
......negs. None of these were newbies.
......So what's my point here?
....b. The only way a rep system can work, it seems to me,
......is for it to be focused on post type, never on
......the person posting Example:
......before the rep system I used to chide one of the zones best
......and most prolific posters for an occasional lapse into glib.
......Instead of commenting about the offending thread directly,
......on another's critique of the thread, I'd use an inappropriate
......play on words, referring to the author as double glib. He called
......me on it. He was right in doing so. With the rep system I should
......be able to neg that post with too glib and it never for a sec,
......be considered by either of us as personal.
.....c. If the rep system was intended to be used as a
......critique/comment of/on the poster, IMO, it should
......be immediately abandoned.
.....d. To those who have received negs on a post and retaliated,
......or threatened retaliation, isn't there a better way?.
3) A suggested fix for inane comments/posts
.....a. as others have suggested, a 30 day waiting period between
........registration and first post/comment. Guidelines posted and
.......confirmed as having been read prior to 1st post approval.
.....b. imo, most importantly, permit only one (1) comment on any
.....given thread per 24 hrs from any member except mods and pbp hosts.
.....This would make us all think before we post in order to be completely
.....cogent, put a chill on the gratuitous and stifle the guy who must have
.....the last word or die!
4) Re: mods
.....a. This is a thankless job.
.....b. But I'm with Rem.
.....c. Consider, Why can't officers and enlisted men fraternize?


Ga_Red

OldRightHander
05-30-2006, 11:49 PM
Meeeooowww!!! Hiss Hiss!!!

CougarQuest
05-30-2006, 11:49 PM
Wow. Some of the comments in here are stunning. No wonder posters get upset. Some of the comments/replies in here absolutely prove some of the complaints. Some of the older posters with high rep points and newer posters need to look at what they've written in here from a 3rd parties point of view.

Newman4
05-30-2006, 11:52 PM
The mini-flood gates have been opened it seems, so I will say me 2 cents in naming names.

M2 and SteelSD. Those two names stick out most in my head as people who have consistently been involved in personal arguments. Chances are if there is a thread closed on RedsZone, M2 has posted in it at least 3 times. SteelSD is a bit behind in that regards but I've seen him snipe at folks and go digging through the RedsZone archives looking for dirty blackmail posts. These two people are active participants of these same problems they are telling us to ignore and "relax" over. They can't resist the temptation of joining in a good dog fight. Whenever an argument springs up they pop in and drop their 'knowledge'.

So when these two guys and the several others who do the same stuff come on here and try to tell others to "adapt or leave", it makes me laugh. They get everyone else so heated that they begin a tyrade (like this one) and then take a step back, sip on their tea, and smile. "What's all the hullaballoo about fellas?" "Why the long faces?"

What is disheartening is that no mods or people that have "earned respect" will admit what I have just said. They can't, because "earning respect" means kissing up to those above you and getting on their good side. The ideal RedsZone they are talking about, the one where knowledgeable posters contribute and earn respect, is a RedsZone where everyone kneels to them and ignores their mistakes. Anyone who disagrees with them is a "board cancer" and "what is wrong with this board".

Great post. Enough said.

Reds4Life
05-30-2006, 11:52 PM
The mini-flood gates have been opened it seems, so I will say me 2 cents in naming names.

M2 and SteelSD. Those two names stick out most in my head as people who have consistently been involved in personal arguments. Chances are if there is a thread closed on RedsZone, M2 has posted in it at least 3 times. SteelSD is a bit behind in that regards but I've seen him snipe at folks and go digging through the RedsZone archives looking for dirty blackmail posts. These two people are active participants of these same problems they are telling us to ignore and "relax" over. They can't resist the temptation of joining in a good dog fight. Whenever an argument springs up they pop in and drop their 'knowledge'.

So when these two guys and the several others who do the same stuff come on here and try to tell others to "adapt or leave", it makes me laugh. They get everyone else so heated that they begin a tyrade (like this one) and then take a step back, sip on their tea, and smile. "What's all the hullaballoo about fellas?" "Why the long faces?"

What is disheartening is that no mods or people that have "earned respect" will admit what I have just said. They can't, because "earning respect" means kissing up to those above you and getting on their good side. The ideal RedsZone they are talking about, the one where knowledgeable posters contribute and earn respect, is a RedsZone where everyone kneels to them and ignores their mistakes. Anyone who disagrees with them is a "board cancer" and "what is wrong with this board".


I do not want to see individuals called out or demeaning names used, such as statheads and the like

I can't believe we will have to end up closing this thread, what a fitting end to the discussion.

Time for a cooling off period friends, this thread will reopen when all parties involved can have a mature discussion.

paintmered
05-30-2006, 11:54 PM
The mini-flood gates have been opened it seems, so I will say me 2 cents in naming names.


And yet, with this you violate the one thing you were instructed not to do. Why?

TeamCasey
05-31-2006, 06:09 AM
Cougarquest was right. It's amazing to look in on Boss's thread from somewhat of an outside view.

You guys can close or lock this. It's really meant to be part of the locked thread so I understand I may be undermining you and apologize in advance.

Boss remarkably again attempted to solicit ideas and improvements to the board. Instead many used it again as a platform for their disagreements. The thread was meant for people to put these things aside for the moment and brainstorm some ideas to fix things.

Many of you did put some good thoughts in there. Much of the troubles are really about respecting one another. I'm not sure the admins or mods can do much about that. It's everyone's personal responsibility ..... and it isn't too much to ask from all sides.

It's just a shame that an opportunity was opened up for constructive ideas and the thread had to be locked because folks couldn't see it as such.

zombie-a-go-go
05-31-2006, 06:31 AM
:lol:

So this is what I've missed the last few months.

Good times, good times.

I am going to lock this though, TC. No hard feelings, I hope.

EDIT: merged this with the original thread.

paintmered
05-31-2006, 08:40 AM
Okay, we're back open.

The next time, it remains closed for good. Behave yourselves.

Roy Tucker
05-31-2006, 08:46 AM
Peace be with you all.

zombie-a-go-go
05-31-2006, 08:49 AM
Peace be with you all.

...and to all a good night.

paintmered
05-31-2006, 08:49 AM
Peace be with you all.

.....and also with you.

savafan
05-31-2006, 08:59 AM
Call me crazy, but I'm starting to think that maybe you moderators have been too lenient, and that perhaps swifter, more frequent use of banning powers...for both the new posters who get out of hand and the so called "long time respected" posters who get out of hand might help to quiet some of the noise around here. 24 hour bans are possible right? Are 1 week bans possible? Can you set how long you want the ban to be for arbitrarily?

It could be looked at more to give people a cooling off period than as "punishment". I once got a one week ban on the Marlins fan message board, and when I was able to post again there, I was better for it.

It is always good to e-mail and explain to people why they are banned though, and how for how long.

I also think that there should be some kind of punishment for having too much negative rep. That only makes sense, that if you get rewarded for 200, that there be a punishment for some arbitrary negative number.

Heath
05-31-2006, 09:05 AM
This thread is not complete unless we merge the ORG thread with this one. :D

Folks, this thread is reaching "Be the last person to post here" levels. Think about that for a few seconds.

Yep, my thoughts exactly.

Heath
05-31-2006, 09:06 AM
.....and also with you.

If you quote the rest of that, we'll end up in the religious area ;)

paintmered
05-31-2006, 09:09 AM
Call me crazy, but I'm starting to think that maybe you moderators have been too lenient, and that perhaps swifter, more frequent use of banning powers...for both the new posters who get out of hand and the so called "long time respected" posters who get out of hand might help to quiet some of the noise around here. 24 hour bans are possible right? Are 1 week bans possible? Can you set how long you want the ban to be for arbitrarily?

It could be looked at more to give people a cooling off period than as "punishment". I once got a one week ban on the Marlins fan message board, and when I was able to post again there, I was better for it.

It is always good to e-mail and explain to people why they are banned though, and how for how long.

I also think that there should be some kind of punishment for having too much negative rep. That only makes sense, that if you get rewarded for 200, that there be a punishment for some arbitrary negative number.


For about a month prior to the board split, that was the policy - ban anything and everything. Suffice to say, it was not a viable solution and actually made matters worse. It was however, a heckuva lot of fun for Zombie. :D

An ideal solution would be one where I (and the other mods) are less needed IMO.

RedFanAlways1966
05-31-2006, 09:13 AM
If you do not like this place... then do not come here.
If you think this place has issues or problems... then do not come here.

The internet has millions of sites and no one is forced to access any of them. You come here, you do it one your own freewill. If this place is so bad, then do not come here.

I was new here at one time. I was not a part of any other board before here. I did not come here as part of a migration from another board. I got mocked at times, I got "yelled at" at times. Oh well... it is what it is. I joined someone else's board and had to accept it for what it was.

Changes have happened since I joined. Some good, some not so good (In my opnion). But it is not my board and I had to accept those changes. Most changes were a result of members being asked for their opinions before changes were made. That seems fair to me.

If you are new, then do not come in here and think you can change the place. Offer suggestions. Many have been here since day one. They helped make this place what it is. You came here b/c you heard about the quality of this place (deny it if you want, but you know the truth). You have been to many other sites and came here b/c you know the best place for REDS talk. There is no perfect place. That is true. This is the best that it gets. However, there are types who would complain about the taxes that they have to pay if they win the Lotto. And those types will always be there and here. I hope the squeaky wheels DO NOT get the oil. Especially ones who have been here for short times.

Leave the best site for REDS talk alone. And if it is so bad, do not come here. Simple.

savafan
05-31-2006, 09:21 AM
An ideal solution would be one where I (and the other mods) are less needed IMO.

I agree, but is that possible?

saboforthird
05-31-2006, 09:35 AM
Look, what I said wasn't a judgement statement. It's fact around here. If you want respect, you'll have to earn it Start by taking the time to learn what this place is about. Redszone is very much about the personalities that exist within it. If you ever learn anything about this place, that is of the utmost importance.

If you post a rash, off the top of your head post, certain members won't care for it. They'll usually let you know about it. That's part of their "redszone personality" if you will. Once you understand that, you can avoid it completely. If you bring well reasoned, thought out posts, you will earn respect quickly. It has nothing to do with being a "stathead" or anything else. It's simple. Take the time to learn a bit about how the board works, and bring your best when you post. I'll just about guarantee that if you take that approach, you won't be demanding respect, you'll be earning it.

Guess I never heard that was the makeup of RedsZone: Don't Chat, Do Analyze. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, I'm done with this board.

wolfboy
05-31-2006, 09:42 AM
For about a month prior to the board split, that was the policy - ban anything and everything. Suffice to say, it was not a viable solution and actually made matters worse. It was however, a heckuva lot of fun for Zombie. :D

An ideal solution would be one where I (and the other mods) are less needed IMO.

Perhaps we could have a permanent sticky on the board that details some of the expectations here. We have the board rules that detail all of the things a poster cannot do. We don't have anything that really says what a poster should do. If we're going to expect integrity and quality on the board, we may have to spell that out for some.

I think a temporary block on posting for new members would help. For some, this place can be like a kid in a candy store. They may be new to message boards, or haven't seen a Reds message board of this caliber. The tendency is there to post every emotion that crosses their mind. If we prevent new members from posting for a week or two, it will give them the time to read the board over and get to know the place. This could also prevent the "Dunn Sucks" 1 post count types from coming around after every loss.

I think savafan could be right about the moderation/reputation issue. There should be repercussions for those who receive excessive negative reputation. Maybe a one day cooling off period? If people aren't able to stop and take a deep breath, then maybe a control should be in place to make them do so.

Johnny Footstool
05-31-2006, 09:45 AM
Guess I never heard that was the makeup of RedsZone: Don't Chat, Do Analyze. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, I'm done with this board.

Chat all you want. But if you're the type who gets angry when someone challenges something you say, then you're going to have problems here.

gonelong
05-31-2006, 09:46 AM
When I first came here I completely understood the idea of having to earn your rep. It made sense to me, and I don't have a problem with it.

Cool.


It's just now we (the board) are beginning to have a problem, and we one Reds Live are taking the blame when I don't see why we should.

Some friendly advice here, just relax, its not specifically anything you have done. This certainly isn't the first time this board has had some turmoil and growing pains, and it won't be the last. Every so often we have to spit the bit and come to grips with the growth of the site. A lot of people tend to think we have built something very valuable here and they are going to be a bit protective of it, I know I am.

I don't feel that the tenor of the board is to blame "the new guys" for the state of Live at this point, its that the ORG has failed to do a few things.

1) Expectations are not clear enough
2) Enforcement is not swift or harsh enough from members (rep pts)

As a group, the posters of Reds Live are not where I'd want them to be, but that isn't something I am putting on them. To me its that blame lies squarely on the ORG members.


I don't expect to walk in here and be able to run the place, but until recently I never felt this feeling of insignificance.

Its just a message board, I really don't think that many, if any of the posters around here sit around and contemplate their significance on the board. Most of us are here because its the premier place to get the full scoop on the Reds, much more than you are going to get on the local radio or print. I know I'd come here just to read, even if I could never post.

That said, its not an easy task to be "significant" around here. There are quite literally hundreds of posters that have earned distinction over time. Some for keen observations, some for an uncanny ability to read a situation correctly, some for stating things that are ridiculed at first and become "common knowledge" a year or two down the road, some for the niche information (draft, rule 5, etc) the bring, and some for statistical analysis.

We are ALL pretty much insignificant here as individuals. This site has gained/lost some outstanding members over time, but it marches on ... mainly because it has been policed very well over the years and has a number of quality posters to provide outstanding content.

All we are trying to do here is ensure that the atmosphere that allowed this board to thrive, remains. Its not personal to any individual poster.

GL

saboforthird
05-31-2006, 09:51 AM
Chat all you want. But if you're the type who gets angry when someone challenges something you say, then you're going to have problems here.

I *never* have a problem when someone challenges something I say. It wouldn't be a discussion if everyone had everyone else on ignore, and posted to themselves. :D I *do* have a problem with the way *certain* folks here go about doing that. That's been the premise of most of the posts in this thread. That's what needs to change.

vaticanplum
05-31-2006, 09:53 AM
I think this board is largely delightful. My only problems right now are with the freaking baseball team it celebrates.

edabbs44
05-31-2006, 09:55 AM
Cool.



Some friendly advice here, just relax, its not specifically anything you have done. This certainly isn't the first time this board has had some turmoil and growing pains, and it won't be the last. Every so often we have to spit the bit and come to grips with the growth of the site. A lot of people tend to think we have built something very valuable here and they are going to be a bit protective of it, I know I am.

I don't feel that the tenor of the board is to blame "the new guys" for the state of Live at this point, its that the ORG has failed to do a few things.

1) Expectations are not clear enough
2) Enforcement is not swift or harsh enough from members (rep pts)

As a group, the posters of Reds Live are not where I'd want them to be, but that isn't something I am putting on them. To me its that blame lies squarely on the ORG members.



Its just a message board, I really don't think that many, if any of the posters around here sit around and contemplate their significance on the board. Most of us are here because its the premier place to get the full scoop on the Reds, much more than you are going to get on the local radio or print. I know I'd come here just to read, even if I could never post.

That said, its not an easy task to be "significant" around here. There are quite literally hundreds of posters that have earned distinction over time. Some for keen observations, some for an uncanny ability to read a situation correctly, some for stating things that are ridiculed at first and become "common knowledge" a year or two down the road, some for the niche information (draft, rule 5, etc) the bring, and some for statistical analysis.

We are ALL pretty much insignificant here as individuals. This site has gained/lost some outstanding members over time, but it marches on ... mainly because it has been policed very well over the years and has a number of quality posters to provide outstanding content.

All we are trying to do here is ensure that the atmosphere that allowed this board to thrive, remains. Its not personal to any individual poster.

GL
This feels like The Godfather when they go to the mattresses...

CLEMENZA

Pretty ******* bad. Probably all the other Families will line up against us. That's alright -- this thing's gotta happen every five years or so -- ten years -- helps to get rid of the bad blood. Been ten years since the last one. You know you got to stop them at the beginning, like they should have stopped Hitler at Munich, They should never've let him get away with that. They were just asking for big trouble. You know, Mike, we was all proud of you -- being a hero and all. Your father, too.

edabbs44
05-31-2006, 09:55 AM
I think this board is largely delightful. My only problems right now are with the freaking baseball team it celebrates.
:laugh:

wolfboy
05-31-2006, 10:01 AM
Guess I never heard that was the makeup of RedsZone: Don't Chat, Do Analyze. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, I'm done with this board.

I was never saying not to chat. This place is here for discussion. At the same time, it operates as a community. If newer posters spend the time to learn the community element, it will go a long way in being comfortable here.

SunDeck
05-31-2006, 10:10 AM
I said this on the other thread, which is now closed. Spent some time thinking about it and it's something I feel strongly about, so I wanted to post it here as well. Although I don't post like I did in the early days, I still consider this group of people to be close friends and I value the relationships we have here. Being a good citizen on Redszone has nothing to do with newness to the board; it's about manners, respect and treating each other with dignity. If you can't do that, then you really shouldn't be coming here.

Here is what I said on the other thread, pardon the repetition:


Man, I can't believe this. First, a thread addressing the downward spiral of the board karma, then a thread to talk about the thread about the downward spiral of the board karma.

What really gets me about all this is that so many people seem to forget that we all have one thing in common, a love of the Cincinnati Reds. That's got to be worth something, and I personally have no problem considering everyone here a friend first, assuming that each and every poster would extend the same courtesy to me.

How does this influence me when I post? Well, it means that I don't write stuff here that I wouldn't say to a friend. There are millions of ways to have dissagreements with your buddies without causing offense, without getting up in their face, without dressing them down in front of a bunch of others. In short, I offer the same respect to everyone here that I believe is due to me. If I don't get it, I will mention it, but it will not be in a way that escalates the confrontation.The first order of business from my perspective is to make sure that the offending party understands that I don't play that way. It's my own little golden rule- post kindly and treat others with respect.

In the end, maybe a strong performance by the Reds will change things. I remember how fun things were with this group back in the day, when the Reds were playing well and surprising the major leagues. But that was several years back, and we have endured subsequent managerial incompetence, injuries and just poor play by our favorite team. I hope the Reds get on a run, partly because I wish they were a better ballclub. But also, I wish they would get on a run so that everyone here would perk up and start looking on the brighter side of their fellow posters. Failing that, maybe some folks need to evaluate their own personal priorities a little bit.

TRF
05-31-2006, 10:11 AM
Guess I never heard that was the makeup of RedsZone: Don't Chat, Do Analyze. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, I'm done with this board.

your loss. certainly not mine.

I've cut back a bit on posting. I rarely post in threads like this one. But I was an original migrant from cincinnati.com, and this "place" is important to me.

What many in this thread fail to realize is this isn't a formal organization. There is no signed charter. Moderators were added to assist the OWNERS of this forum in keeping the peace, and to help with technical issues if they can (duplicate posts, merging of threads etc.)

I disagree that any topic has been beaten to death, only that some poster may not want to discuss it anymore. Fine, that is your right. But a 16 year old kid that comes here for the first time wants to discuss EE's batting average or Dunn's strikeouts. They don't want to read a discussion that took place a year ago, they want to DISCUSS.

Another poster brought up the MLB.com and the newly revived cincinnati.com boards. Both have some good posters, but they are drowned out by the noise that is the "Dunn is teh suck" crowd. No I am not talking SABR only types. The most revered poster Redszone ever had was not a SABR type, and yet when he posted we all read, because yes, he was that damn good. Everyone here should aspire to that kind of writing.

There has been an influx of new posters. This is directly attributable to the Reds early success this season. And when that success started to fade you see the dark side of being a fan. There are times when Reds Live! isn't much better than MLB.com. but that's ok too, because cream usually rises to the top. Submit quality posts enough times and you get permission to ORG. Not that we don't have bad posts there, but most all of ORG's posters know and respect the rules.

Ah... I mentioned the rules. There are 6 rules. 6.

Is this really that hard?

membengal
05-31-2006, 10:16 AM
I think this board is largely delightful. My only problems right now are with the freaking baseball team it celebrates.

Yeah. What VP said.

And this thought...people seem to want this board to be something it tries NOT to be, that is, they want it to be like the vast majority of other boards out there where access to a keyboard and a working synapse gives you some bizarre right to have your say. Well, happily, the people who founded this oasis have tried for something more. If you are uncomfortable with that concept, or it makes you feel unloved or unappreciated, this may not be the board for you. If, however, you are seeking a community of fellow lovers of the Reds and baseball, and are willing to do some thinking, well, there's plenty of good here.

I have avoided this particular conversation until now, but drop in to add this thought...being new in a place (like I was not too very long ago on here, and still am in many ways) means taking the time to learn about it and fit in. In many ways, a mature chat board like this is much like a house. You simply don't walk into somone's house and drop your muddy shoes on the coffee table and then spit in the corner. You take the time to get to know your environs, and work at finding a place. It takes time. And it takes effort. I don't see a good reason for short-cutting that process, or changing it.

There are people on this board who I treasure reading. Their thoughts are immensely valuable to me, and I appreciate their efforts. My love of the game and my understanding of it is deeper because of their passion. My hope for people who seem so agitated, particularly newer members, is to take the lead of OldRighthander among others who have identified in this thread how you can converse, disagree, learn, and adjust.

But, and this should be clear, access to a keyboard and a random thought doesn't = "respect", whatever is meant by that. "Respect", in any sense, comes from adding thoughts of substance. For what it's worth, I will never be mistaken for a "stathead", whatever that means, but have occasionally thrown up posts that people enjoyed reading and apparently added something to the conversation. That's cool. And it's available to all. No big deal.

More moderation is not the answer. Merging boards is not the answer. Simple adherence to what the founders of this board were striving for is the answer. To make this place better than 99.9% of the chatboards out there. Which can only happen when people buy into the concept that more is required from them when they post.

Peace.

---Aaron

redsfan30
05-31-2006, 10:16 AM
I, for one, don't care about changes that are made around here. They generally don't have too much effect on me.....all I care about is that I have someplace to talk Reds baseball with other fans. I don't care what board I have to do it in, just as long as I get to.

Shouldn't that be the premise of this board? Just enjoying talking Reds baseball with other fans?

I don't think this can be said enough.....simply respecting others will go a long way to fixing up some of the percieved issues.

Spitball
05-31-2006, 10:23 AM
If you don't like how the board works, you have an option- leave. Or you could adapt. Your choice, and I'd be happy to mentor you in order for you to stay. You can, of course, refuse that assistance but you need to understand that doing so completely invalidates your opinion as an offer of mentoring is a dramatic show of respect. Do with it what you will but if it's not to your liking then you need to stop complaining immediately.

I don't mean this as a flame or attack, just a suggestion. Why not give Steel and a couple of others their own forum that they can moderate to their tastes. Call it "Ask the Answer Men" or "Ask the Experts" or something of that nature. Then, if we wanted to adhere to certain rules and beliefs, we could go to that forum. If we wanted to discuss the merit of strikeouts or the like, we could go to the other forums.

Just a suggestion.

dabvu2498
05-31-2006, 10:27 AM
Unfortunately, sarcasm and semi-snide comments seem to have a greater effect when they are written, not spoken... especially when they are there to be read over and over again in a public forum.

Sarcasm sometimes doesn't work at all in print. I've often wondered whether a poster was being sarcastic or not.

Unfortunately, it's human nature to "get your back up" (what one poster accused me of once) when confronted with such comments. You just have to take it with a grain of salt. It's not your family or your faith or your job that's someone's questioning here.

It is what it is: a site that's supposed to be about baseball. Not petty crapola.

registerthis
05-31-2006, 10:29 AM
I'll tell you one thing: I remember well the days of the Cinci.com board. In its final days, it was an absolute waste of Internet space. Gallagher wasn't even close to the worst of it.

As petty and obnoxious as things can get around here from time to time, it's not anywhere close to approaching the awfulness of the cinci.com board. And for that we should all be thankful.

Roy Tucker
05-31-2006, 10:32 AM
Yeah, I still enjoy the heck out of this board. The board seems to go through periodic identity crises, but that's OK. A little introspection isn't a bad thing. We always seem to come out of it better.

Nowadays, I find myself reading more than writing but I think that's due to the high level of baseball acumen here. It's getting harder to come up with a well-reasoned opinion that hasn't been stated before.

We all just need a little common sense. To paraphrase the all I needed to learn was in kindergarten thing...

Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.

BRM
05-31-2006, 10:33 AM
We all just need a little common sense. To paraphrase the all I needed to learn was in kindergarten...

Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.

You left out "Don't eat the glue". :)

RBA
05-31-2006, 10:34 AM
Where am I?

registerthis
05-31-2006, 10:35 AM
Where am I?

I would guess El Paso, but you could be lying.

macro
05-31-2006, 10:40 AM
I disagree that any topic has been beaten to death, only that some poster may not want to discuss it anymore. Fine, that is your right. But a 16 year old kid that comes here for the first time wants to discuss EE's batting average or Dunn's strikeouts. They don't want to read a discussion that took place a year ago, they want to DISCUSS.

To repeat something I said earlier...

Yes, this board serves an individual need to have one's voice be heard on topics. But it also serves a greater and broader purpose for the community as a whole. A person's right to say something does not override the greater community's right to not have to read the same things repeatedly, or to say the same things repeatedly in response to the same topic. It's not always about what one individual wants to say, it's about what is best for the forum overall.

The forum will be the better for it if people do a search of existing threads and add their uniquecontributions or perspectives to the threads already in existence. Why the need to start a new thread? If someone else has already said it in recent days or weeks, why is anyone owed the privilege of saying basically the same thing again?

Someone mentioned this earlier, I think, but one thing we may need to do is find a way of helping people understand how the search feature works. I don't think we should automatically assume that a person who is new to the board knows how the basic features of vBulletin work. And sometimes people do the search, but the thread titles were not clear enough to bring it up in the search. But that's a whole different subject...

RedsBaron
05-31-2006, 10:42 AM
Patience and civility would help the board. We have had a few trolls of course, but some new posters simply are not that well informed, and if somebody wants to argue batting average as the best measure of a hitter's production, a sarcastic reply to such a misinformed viewpoint isn't necessarily the best approach. I can remember way back in 1967, at age 12, as a Pete Rose fan I wanted to argue that Rose had a better season that year than Lou Brock, solely because Pete hit .301 to Lou's .299. Lou's edge in slugging, .472-.444, HRs, 21-12, and steals, 52-11, meant nothing to me.

RFS62
05-31-2006, 10:44 AM
Where am I?



You're in Boss and GIK's living room.

You were invited here to hang out with other baseball fans.

You are benefitting from the labor and imagination of two guys who saw a need and filled it. They filled it so well that it's the premier living room for Cincinnati Reds fans to hang out in anywhere.

All they ask is that you play nice and follow those rules down at the bottom of the page.

But it's still their living room and they get to decide how wild the party gets.

RedsBaron
05-31-2006, 10:45 AM
We have some truly wonderful and well informed posters here, who bring original thinking and insight to the board, along with the ability to write well. However, I do not believe that posters should necessarily think they have to always bring their "A" game when they post. I get enough of that at work; here I sometimes just wanna relax and chat.

Roy Tucker
05-31-2006, 10:52 AM
We have some truly wonderful and well informed posters here, who bring original thinking and insight to the board, along with the ability to write well. However, I do not believe that posters should necessarily think they have to always bring their "A" game when they post. I get enough of that at work; here I sometimes just wanna relax and chat.
Good point RB and one I frequently encounter.

Sometimes I don't have enough spare CPU cycles to truly dissect an issue and run an FFT on future predicted team OPS. Sometimes I just want to say "lord, I can't believe they keep trotting out Rick White".

SandyD
05-31-2006, 11:21 AM
Frankly, I think we rely too much on the miderators ... like a childhood playground. "He hit me!" "I'm tellin' ..." and the like. If you feel someone has attacked you unfairly, why not just send out a pm to the alleged "attacker"? Maybe they were just joking, and didn't mean it personally or something. Or maybe you just touched a particular nerve. We all have them. Try to handle it on your own BEFORE involving the mods.

But do not make what's said in a PM public. Ever. That's not fair to anyone.

Oh, and welcome back zombie.

membengal
05-31-2006, 11:25 AM
Good point RB and one I frequently encounter.

Sometimes I don't have enough spare CPU cycles to truly dissect an issue and run an FFT on future predicted team OPS. Sometimes I just want to say "lord, I can't believe they keep trotting out Rick White".

There is certainly room for that. Of my 1408 posts, probably 1390 fall into that category. Then again, I put myself on exile last year for a time because maybe 600 of the remaining 1390 dealt with Rich Aurilia and my dissatisfaction with him and the Reds' infatuation with him. It broke a rule. And I dealt with it my own self by taking some time off. Some of the problems would be addressed if people would take the rules seriously in terms of their own actions, rather than turning themselves inside out to try and identify other rule-breakers...

Heath
05-31-2006, 11:40 AM
You're in Boss and GIK's living room.

You were invited here to hang out with other baseball fans.

You are benefitting from the labor and imagination of two guys who saw a need and filled it. They filled it so well that it's the premier living room for Cincinnati Reds fans to hang out in anywhere.

All they ask is that you play nice and follow those rules down at the bottom of the page.

But it's still their living room and they get to decide how wild the party gets.

I keep waiting for the maid to show up to clean. I hate cleaning up the cans left around.

Then I forget that it's the wrong type of "maid" for the wrong party. Whoops.

Great Analogy, btw - RFS62

Danny Serafini
05-31-2006, 11:46 AM
Some of the problems would be addressed if people would take the rules seriously in terms of their own actions, rather than turning themselves inside out to try and identify other rule-breakers...

Exactly! There sure seems to be a lot of finger-pointing and excuses in this thread. The moderators are the problem, the split boards are the problem, the rep points are the problem, etc. What there seems to not be much of is people being accountable for themselves. The system isn't what's broken, it's the people (mis)using it. It only takes a second to think "Is this how I'd want someone to talk to me" before hitting the send button. It only takes a second to ask yourself if you're adding anything of value to the discussion with what you're posting. And there's no scorecard for arguements won or lost. It seems there's this underlying need to "win" every discussion. There's no prize for it. And I'm not singling any particular group or poster out, every person here, myself included, needs to just use their head a little when they post and it would clean things up a lot.

Bottom line - we're all adults here, we should all act like it.

GIK
05-31-2006, 11:47 AM
I haven't had the chance to read every comment yet, but will. My personal life has been fairly hectic these past few months. I appreciate all replies and welcome the viewpoints within. However, getting personal toward another member (from anyone) will not be tolerated. I'm pretty sure we can work through these issues as adults. In addition, as RFS has said, both Boss and I make the rules in how RedsZone operates. We do our best to allow all members a voice in how this community is run, but we're going to make decisions in how we feel this forum should operate.

MartyFan
05-31-2006, 11:50 AM
I like the idea of there being a dead horse forum section...as for the rep points, I think making them a private thing would be great.

Some have said that RedsZone isn't exactly welcoming...I am not certain I agree or disagree with this but I can tell you my experience has been fairly good.

I am not someone who looks at baseball through statistics eventhough I understand those stats can predict a pattern that will determine more often than not the realistic outcome of a players performance....I saw plenty of potential in some of the things DanO was doing especially when he DFA'd a couple of guys...I defended him because I thought that he would be making moves...which we all know he did not...during that time I took a few hits and that's okay, I got to learn a few things about the game and a few thigs about other people and a few things about myself.

The coolest thing about Redszone is that it is a community of people who have at least one thing in common, The Cincinnati Reds, outside of that we are liberals, conservatives, music buffs, artists, historians, comedians, computer programmers, adminstrators, business owners, faithful employees, Christian, Jew, Muslim, everything in between and more...nobody is going to agree with anyone else 100% of the time (unless you are me and married to my wife and I have learned what disagreeing can do to a guy :) )...so I would say, that this board is a lot like real life...maybe a bit more vibrato...but it's not a bad place to be.

SteelSD
05-31-2006, 11:52 AM
I don't mean this as a flame or attack, just a suggestion. Why not give Steel and a couple of others their own forum that they can moderate to their tastes.

Both RedsLive! and ORG are moderated to my "tastes". But then, my "tastes" are actually meaningless because I have to adhere to the same rules as everyone else. If I didn't want to be held to the same standard as everyone else, I could leave. But it just so happens that Redszone is neither under-moderated nor over-moderated and the rules of the board are easy to follow. That suits me just fine. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to suit some others.

What I wouldn't do is pop up new on a message board and immediately start complaining about how I should also have carte blanche to do or say whatever I like while demanding respect and privilege that I haven't earned. Please note that I am not speaking to you personally on that, Spitball. But it (and what follows) needs to be said.

This isn't an issue of moderation, rep points, or stats vs. observation. Those are all red herrings. They always are. And, as always, it's an issue of entitlement. Some folks just appear to feel entitled to whatever, whenever without earning any of it. And we've seen plenty of examples in this thread. Demands for respect without earning it. Demands for appreciation without doing anything appreciable. Complaints about nonexistent personal attacks while in the midst of typing a personal attack.

Valid opinions here are always respected. Appreciation, when earned, is always given. Administrative action, when mandated, is consistently taken.

Boss' initial post in this thread confirms that there is an issue. But the remainder of this thread only confirms that there are complaints. Problem is that complaints become invalid the moment they become personal pleas to acquire undeserved entitlement and/or demands that the board "change" to suit their needs. Knowing that, there is one solution- if folks don't like how a mature, intelligent community functions they can choose to leave. No one who's ever cared to make the effort has ever had a problem "fitting in" at Redszone. All it takes is type good words, say smart things.

Roy Tucker
05-31-2006, 12:00 PM
But it just so happens that Redszone is neither under-moderated nor over-moderated and the rules of the board are easy to follow.
i.e. it's moderated just right, aka the Goldilocks Effect.

:)

Steve4192
05-31-2006, 12:01 PM
First off, I would like to apologize in advance if anything I have to say in this post is redundant. I am way too lazy to read 16 pages of kvetching.


I think there should be a "beaten to death" forum. Topics (say, like Dunn, K's, and sac flies for example) could be sent to the "beaten to death" forum.

If someone wants to keep arguing about it, they can go in there. Two men enter, one man leaves: THUNDERDOME!!!!

I am fairly certain Raisor was being facetious with this post, but I actually love the idea.

In addition to being a Reds fan, I am a combat sports enthusiast and spend a fair amount of time on the sherdog.com forums. If you have never been there, that place is a cesspool of trolling and downright childish behavior. In no way shape or form do I ever want Redszone to resemble that zoo. However, they do have one feature that I like. They have a forum called 'The Wasteland' where moderators send topics that have been beaten to death or that are obvious attempts at trolling. It is essentially a garbage bin where bad threads (or good threads gone bad) go to fade into obscurity and die. However, those folks who want to wallow in the garbage are more than welcome to respond to their hearts content in that forum.

I think adding a 'Wasteland' to Redzone could work wonders. Want to talk about Dunn's strikeouts? Fine, do it in the wasteland. Want to poke a stick at all the sliderule wearing sabre-geeks? Fine, do it in the wasteland. Want to talk about the geopolitical ramifications of the Dixie Chicks latest album? Fine, do it in the wasteland.

TeamCasey
05-31-2006, 12:09 PM
I need to stop reading this thread. It's starting to frustrate me ...... and I haven't even been involved with these newest brouhahas. Neither side will give an inch. Looking in, I can see poor behavior on all sides and from people that I like very much.

So, line up newbies, oldies, stat dudes, not so much stat dudes ..... I'll kick you all in the shin and steal your chocolate. :laugh:

(I say this even owning the fact that was was once an ugly optimist battling the evils of ugly pessimists long, long ago. :lol: ) Same battle, different war.

Anyway, just wanted to urge people once again for any ideas that Boss can ponder.

Is it a growth thing? Would more forums help to alleviate the masses, or would it only segregate more. I'm not talking RL/ORG forums ..... but divided up by topics a bit? How's the minor league forum doing?

M2
05-31-2006, 12:12 PM
Instead of "Wasteland," could we call it "The Cornfield?"

Red Leader
05-31-2006, 12:17 PM
Instead of "Wasteland," could we call it "The Cornfield?"

That might be a better option than what I was going to suggest: DFA'd.

That has too much of a negative connotation I think.

SandyD
05-31-2006, 12:20 PM
I like that. "The Cornfield."

Could become a place for pure "rants" too. Sometimes a good rant can be quite a release and sort of fun for everyone.

KittyDuran
05-31-2006, 12:20 PM
How's the minor league forum doing?I think it's doing pretty good - I need to post on it more since I check the farm system every night and listen to some of the games via the Internet.

Red Leader
05-31-2006, 12:25 PM
I think it's doing pretty good - I need to post on it more since I check the farm system every night and listen to some of the games via the Internet.

Yeah, I've had all kinds of personal things come up in the last, well, since the minor league forum was started. I haven't spent 1/1000000th the amount of time I've wanted to on that forum, but when I do check in, I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and topics being discussed in there. I like it a lot.

The only thing I see as being a problem in there now is dealing with the draft.

There's one main MLB Draft thread in there already, which is quite lengthy. There are other threads popping up about the draft. Not sure if they should be merged into the long main thread, or just kept open. Since the forum isn't THAT big to begin with, I'm leaning towards keeping them open by themselves because I can appreciate not wanting to read through 40 pages to see if your topic has been discussed, but not sure if that is how other mods treat other forums of the board and if that forum (Down on the Farm) should work just as the others do so everything works the same way.

I need some mod training. :)

SandyD
05-31-2006, 12:31 PM
The "mlb draft" is too big of a topic for a single thread, IMO. I like your "leaning."

zombie-a-go-go
05-31-2006, 12:34 PM
I need some mod training. :)

If someone starts a new thread, ban them.

Roy Tucker
05-31-2006, 12:36 PM
I need some mod training. :)
Go buy a cup.

Steve4192
05-31-2006, 12:43 PM
The "mlb draft" is too big of a topic for a single thread, IMO. I like your "leaning."
Agreed.

The minor league forum is low-traffic enough I think it can support multiple threads without having them scroll into oblivion. Just be sure to do a stickied 'live draft thread' on draft day and that should keep everything fairly clean.

P.S. Love the Minor League forum, even if it is low-traffic. Lots of good info, very little (if any) fluff.

Red Leader
05-31-2006, 12:44 PM
If someone starts a new thread, ban them.

Thanks for your mentoring. I am ready to serve for the masses.

BTW, is that autograph I asked for on it's way yet. My youngests birthday is coming up and he asked me about it again. Don't want to disappoint him. You can just sign it "to one of my followers, -Z" if you haven't already.

TRF
05-31-2006, 12:47 PM
To repeat something I said earlier...

Yes, this board serves an individual need to have one's voice be heard on topics. But it also serves a greater and broader purpose for the community as a whole. A person's right to say something does not override the greater community's right to not have to read the same things repeatedly, or to say the same things repeatedly in response to the same topic. It's not always about what one individual wants to say, it's about what is best for the forum overall.

The forum will be the better for it if people do a search of existing threads and add their uniquecontributions or perspectives to the threads already in existence. Why the need to start a new thread? If someone else has already said it in recent days or weeks, why is anyone owed the privilege of saying basically the same thing again?

Someone mentioned this earlier, I think, but one thing we may need to do is find a way of helping people understand how the search feature works. I don't think we should automatically assume that a person who is new to the board knows how the basic features of vBulletin work. And sometimes people do the search, but the thread titles were not clear enough to bring it up in the search. But that's a whole different subject...

Neat idea. it'll never work. People want there own stamp. People want to start new threads. Name a topic that hasn't been beat to death. so far this season we have discussed:

Dunn's BA
Dunn's K's
Dunn moving to 1B
Griffey's Value
Griffey's health
Griffey moving to 1B
FeLo's defense
FeLo's offense
EE's defense
EE's offense
BP's defense
BP's offense
The platoon at 1B
The bullpen
Coffey for closer
Milton
Arroyo
Harang
Claussen
Lizard
Team K's
RC
RC/27
Narron
Krivsky
RCast
Casey
Homer
Votto

and on and on and on. All of the above have been discussed ad nauseum, and quite frankly they should. A new poster doesn't want to search for a post from 2003 to discuss why Dunn should cut down on his K's. That poster wants to post. As a moderator if you find the post should be merged, then merge it. It is ridiculous to say a topic has outlived it's usefulness on a MESSAGE BOARD.

Steve4192
05-31-2006, 12:47 PM
Instead of "Wasteland," could we call it "The Cornfield?"
Works for me.

I was also thinking of 'The Top 6' in an homage to my favorite seats at Cinerfront or 'The Wedge' as a tribute to my favorite voyeristic architechtural oddity. Anything that gives the image of being in the same general vicinity as the game but not really close enough to participate.

IowaRed
05-31-2006, 12:48 PM
If someone starts a new thread, ban them.

glad to have you back Zombie, I missed your rational, even-handed moderation style :)

Reds4Life
05-31-2006, 12:48 PM
Thanks for your mentoring. I am ready to serve for the masses.

BTW, is that autograph I asked for on it's way yet. My youngests birthday is coming up and he asked me about it again. Don't want to disappoint him. You can just sign it "to one of my followers, -Z" if you haven't already.

Zombie doesn't "do" autographs.

You need one of these: Call 1-800-BAN-STICK http://mmii.info/icons/andrew342678/banstick.gif

edabbs44
05-31-2006, 12:51 PM
Neat idea. it'll never work. People want there own stamp. People want to start new threads. Name a topic that hasn't been beat to death. so far this season we have discussed:

Dunn's BA
Dunn's K's
Dunn moving to 1B
Griffey's Value
Griffey's health
Griffey moving to 1B
FeLo's defense
FeLo's offense
EE's defense
EE's offense
BP's defense
BP's offense
The platoon at 1B
The bullpen
Coffey for closer
Milton
Arroyo
Harang
Claussen
Lizard
Team K's
RC
RC/27
Narron
Krivsky
RCast
Casey
Homer
Votto

and on and on and on. All of the above have been discussed ad nauseum, and quite frankly they should. A new poster doesn't want to search for a post from 2003 to discuss why Dunn should cut down on his K's. That poster wants to post. As a moderator if you find the post should be merged, then merge it. It is ridiculous to say a topic has outlived it's usefulness on a MESSAGE BOARD.
I think that covers all the topics people want to talk about. If these are off limits there won't be anything left to discuss, except for these:

Better Chili: Gold Star or Skyline?
Does Narron's uniform seem too big?
Where Are They Now: Brandon Larson
Chinese Water Torture or Dinner With GG in St. Louis?
Should We Keep Rick White as our BP Pitcher?

Red Leader
05-31-2006, 12:51 PM
$9.95?


Man, thats a lot less than the $695.00 Z told me. Do I still make the check out to you, Z?

red-in-la
05-31-2006, 12:57 PM
I thought I would clear up a couple of personal misconceptions......no need to duck.....I was reminded that I am in someone's living room.....as justly so.

Stathead - I never meant to use this term in a negative sense but I can certainly see how one who uses stats on a regular basis might take it as negative. I meant stathead as simply a neutral term to describe somebody who uses words (and numbers) that I do not understand.....stuff like VORP and plus something or other. These same folks have taught me the value of OPS and ZR and I appreciate that. From now on, I will not use the term since it seems to be negative to some people.

Next term....

I don't really have a term for this.....but it is group of posters on this board and on ORG that want the discussion of baseball, even game threads, to always end at some point in a definition solution. Again, guys, this is NOT meant to be negative....it isn't at all. This group has a right to that way of thinking for sure.

The problem for me is, and again, it is my problem and not theirs, is that I come here, and come to baseball specifically to get AWAY from that kind of thinking (that I am pressured in my work to live by). I just want to yell, the guy is a bum when he strikes out with the bases loaded.....I don't want another poster to throw a bunch of numbers at me to prove he isn't.

With my Dad gone, you guys are the only outlet I have for that. I am almost 3,000 miles away from GAB and there are no Reds fans within shouting distance.

Maybe I am the only 50 plus poster mwho wants to follow the game that way, and if I am, then I will simply read the threads and yell at myself from now on. I hade actually though, for a while, the Reds Live had become a place like the one I am describing, and that ORG had become the facts and figures thread.....at least it seemed to have migrated in that direction.

Again, maybe I am wrong......I make a regular habit of it.

On another point......and maybe the mods can clue me in on this. I do say some ballplayers are no very good. I never say suck or other bad words because that is not my way. If that is consider personal attacks then again, I guess I will have to just confine myself to reading and not writing. I do not recall when I said in the forum, that other posters sucked. I have said other were wrong (IMHO) and maybe saying I think someone is wrong is too negative in today's world.

And lastly.....I have been personally attacked by other high rep point posters. I have no idea if the mods have done anything about it. But I can say that I cannot recall being personally attacked by any posters who are only allowed to post of Reds Live.

These days I tend to stay in Reds Live because I do not want to interfere with the discussions on ORG. I do read it now and then. But I daily visit Reds Live because it is more to my liking.

RANDY IN INDY
05-31-2006, 01:25 PM
Maybe some of these idea's might be good for all of us to ponder:

Happiness begins where selfishness ends.

The best way to improve the team is to improve ourself.

Discipline yourself and others won't need to.

It is what you learn after you know it all that counts.

Consider the rights of others before your own feelings and the feelings of others before your own rights.

What is right is more important than who is right.

Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress.

Be more concerned with your character than your reputation. Character is what your really are. Reputation is merely what you are perceived to be.

Never be disagreeable just because you disagree.

The time to make friends is before you need them.

Make friendship a fine art.

The smallest good deed is better than the best intention.

Treat all people with dignity and respect.

From "Wooden" "A Lifetime of Observations and Reflections on and off the Court."

And a few more from my own experience:

Growing older is mandatory. Growing up is optional.

The three hardest tasks in the world are neither physical feats nor intellectual achievements, but moral acts.

To return love for hate.

To include the excluded.

To say "I was wrong."

It is the mark of true education to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

Admitting that you were wrong is just another way of saying you are wiser today than yesterday.

And last but not least,

Watch your thoughts. They become words.
Watch your words. They become actions.
Watch your actions. They become habits.
Watch your habits. They become your character.
Watch your character. It becomes your destiny.

MikeS21
05-31-2006, 01:34 PM
I think that covers all the topics people want to talk about. If these are off limits there won't be anything left to discuss, except for these:

Better Chili: Gold Star or Skyline?
Does Narron's uniform seem too big?
Where Are They Now: Brandon Larson
Chinese Water Torture or Dinner With GG in St. Louis?
Should We Keep Rick White as our BP Pitcher?
Oh man! You talked about them and now THOSE topics are off limits! :D

pedro
05-31-2006, 01:39 PM
Oh man! You talked about them and now THOSE topics are off limits! :D

or this time honored classic. "Is White Castle the primary cause of global warming?"

MikeS21
05-31-2006, 01:44 PM
or this time honored classic. "Is White Castle the primary cause of global warming?"
Not sure about GLOBAL warming, but definitely a few cases of LOCAL warming! Drat, you mentioned WC, and now I might need to swing by later for a couple.

zombie-a-go-go
05-31-2006, 01:50 PM
$9.95?


Man, thats a lot less than the $695.00 Z told me. Do I still make the check out to you, Z?

All checks come to me, remember? Let me worry about the money; you don't need to worry your great mind with such a small concern.

Red Leader
05-31-2006, 01:56 PM
All checks come to me, remember? Let me worry about the money; you don't need to worry your great mind with such a small concern.

I have now retained BA's law firm as my own. They will be working with Jim Coombs. Expect to hear from them soon. I can't believe this, I thought you were my friend, and now it turns out the ban stick is only $9.95!

Alright, back to local programming.

Shaggy Sanchez
05-31-2006, 01:59 PM
I know a lot of this has been touched on but I thought I would throw out my thoughts since I did just sit here and read all 17 pages.

1. I disagree with having a thread for topics that have been beaten to death. There will always be people that are new or old to the board that will want to talk about Dunn striking out, Griffey moving positions, Deno needing to be called up, etc. I don't believe it states anywhere that you have to respond to these posts and I think this causes problems sometimes. I know that everyone gets tired of seeing these threads start over and over and when someone goes into a thread with a differing opinion or the stats to back up fact for the 30th time they start to get a little short with the people that started the thread. I remember a few yeas ago when Dunn threads would start there was always a good baseball debate going on between both sides and now it seems that the people (not all people) that have been seeing these threads so much come off a little cold with their opinions/facts and then we see arguments start.

2. I think a lot of people take things that are said on this board way to serious and sometimes need to lighten up a little. I have seen way to many people both old and new get bent out of shape for things that really weren't all that important. I have seen situations where 2 different people said similar things that were sarcastic and one get taken serious while the other gets laughed at.

3. Hiding the rep points/join date, I don't think this is going to do much because you will be able to figure out who has enough points just by reading some threads on ORG. I have never been a huge fan of this system because for people that don't post much there really isn't much chance to get the points to post in ORG. I feel that people can give negative points way to freely and don't always use them as they are intended. If someone says or does something that annoys them or is a pet peeve of theirs they shouldn't have the right to give you neg points but it does happen.

I have been coming to this site for 3 years and I think it has changed both for the good and the bad. It seemed more like a community when I first started coming around and I enjoyed posting more because it didn't always turn into the same argument or just pure jibber-jabber. I think that it is a much more hostile enviornment now and there is an us against them type of mentality that is very annoying. I don't think that this problem can be attached to just the new members or the old members because I see people form both sides doing a lot of the same type of things. I do however see the new members get called on things a lot more than the people that have been around when they do/say the same things and that isn't right whether you have gained respect or not.

zombie-a-go-go
05-31-2006, 01:59 PM
glad to have you back Zombie, I missed your rational, even-handed moderation style :)

It's a little more work on the front end, but afterwards you don't have to deal with the "why me? I'm innocent" PMs and all that rot. ;)

Anyway, seriously, thanks for the welcome back, everyone.

zombie-a-go-go
05-31-2006, 02:00 PM
I have now retained BA's law firm as my own. They will be working with Jim Coombs. Expect to hear from them soon. I can't believe this, I thought you were my friend, and now it turns out the ban stick is only $9.95!

Alright, back to local programming.

Crap.

Time to move to a non-extradition-treaty country.

Roy Tucker
05-31-2006, 02:54 PM
A couple technology suggestions...

- A wait time after joining RZ before being able to start a new thread. It could be based on calendar time, # of posts, or the r-word level.

For example, you would have to be a member of the board for a month before starting a thread. (Originally suggested by Caveat Emperor over on ocher's board)

- Provide a search FAQ with examples.

macro
05-31-2006, 02:56 PM
Neat idea. it'll never work. People want there own stamp. People want to start new threads. Name a topic that hasn't been beat to death. so far this season we have discussed:



and on and on and on. All of the above have been discussed ad nauseum, and quite frankly they should. A new poster doesn't want to search for a post from 2003 to discuss why Dunn should cut down on his K's. That poster wants to post. As a moderator if you find the post should be merged, then merge it. It is ridiculous to say a topic has outlived it's usefulness on a MESSAGE BOARD.

You're implying that the list of Reds-related an baseball-related topics is finite, when it isn't. New things happen with the organization and with the rest of baseball every week, if not every day. There will always be new things to talk about, things that haven't happened yet. I'll admit that sometimes something "new" is actually a variation on something that has already happened.

I agree that it's unreasonable to resurrect a thread that is over a year or so old. I can't imagine merging a thread started today with one that hasn't been touched in 18 months or more. I was referring to the repeats of topics that hit the board just a few weeks earlier, and are still fresh in the minds of those who were here to discuss them. Admittedly, sometimes a story or situation will take a significant turn, and a new thread is appropriate.

(I guess I should also clarify that I am referring to the starting of threads about repeat topics, which really isn't as much of a problem as the derailment of several threads by inserting the same opinions repeatedly. There is no cure as simple as merging threads for that.)

I don't mind merging threads, not at all. And your agreement that merging related threads is not inappropriate tells me that we aren't really that much in disagreement.


:)

vaticanplum
05-31-2006, 03:02 PM
A couple technology suggestions...

- A wait time after joining RZ before being able to start a new thread. It could be based on calendar time, # of posts, or the r-word level.

For example, you would have to be a member of the board for a month before starting a thread. (Originally suggested by Caveat Emperor over on ocher's board)

I dunno...my very first post here was starting a thread. I had a Reds question, I did a google search for a Reds message board, and came up with this. I got several helpful responses and for that reason decided to stick around. I think a lot of people hit on message boards when they have specific questions that don't necessarily fit into already existing threads. In my case, this question was for purposes of research and I couldn't have waited a month. I did do a search first to see if it had already been answered, but I don't think people would have been irritated if it had.

New threads don't usually bother me. If it's not worth responding to it dies down quickly, or if it is in poor taste or whatever it gets closed. Plus the titles are usually clear enough that I can choose not to read them.

If it's a question of bandwidth that's one thing, but I don't think this particular move would affect the quality of the board all that much. But I don't have too many problems as it is, so my two cents may be worth less.

REDREAD
05-31-2006, 03:20 PM
I always wondered why people click on a thread that they feel has been beaten to death? If you've just discussed it a couple days ago and you don't want to read it, wouldn't it be easier to just skip the thread, instead of complaining and asking it to be merged/moved/whatever?

Personally, I don't like the idea of the "dead horse" forum. People are going to get offended when their threads are moved there. Not to mention, we would see many threads get littered with comments like "this should be in the dead horse forum".

paintmered
05-31-2006, 03:23 PM
I always wondered why people click on a thread that they feel has been beaten to death? If you've just discussed it a couple days ago and you don't want to read it, wouldn't it be easier to just skip the thread, instead of complaining and asking it to be merged/moved/whatever?

Personally, I don't like the idea of the "dead horse" forum. People are going to get offended when their threads are moved there. Not to mention, we would see many threads get littered with comments like "this should be in the dead horse forum".

I think part of the reason is the same reason people rubber-neck when they pass a roadside accident. People like to watch a good fight.

I agree with your dead horse forum comments.

SunDeck
05-31-2006, 03:41 PM
Anyway, seriously, thanks for the welcome back, everyone.

Great to have you back. Pay the pizza guy when he gets here, will ya?

TRF
05-31-2006, 03:57 PM
You're implying that the list of Reds-related an baseball-related topics is finite, when it isn't. New things happen with the organization and with the rest of baseball every week, if not every day. There will always be new things to talk about, things that haven't happened yet. I'll admit that sometimes something "new" is actually a variation on something that has already happened.

I agree that it's unreasonable to resurrect a thread that is over a year or so old. I can't imagine merging a thread started today with one that hasn't been touched in 18 months or more. I was referring to the repeats of topics that hit the board just a few weeks earlier, and are still fresh in the minds of those who were here to discuss them. Admittedly, sometimes a story or situation will take a significant turn, and a new thread is appropriate.

(I guess I should also clarify that I am referring to the starting of threads about repeat topics, which really isn't as much of a problem as the derailment of several threads by inserting the same opinions repeatedly. There is no cure as simple as merging threads for that.)

I don't mind merging threads, not at all. And your agreement that merging related threads is not inappropriate tells me that we aren't really that much in disagreement.


:)

Of course it's finite. Only my wisdom is infinite. Yes there are some discussions that are new topics: the signing/releasing of a player, a new sensation in the minors, the draft, but for the most part the list i gave was pretty complete.

Here is the thing. For Redszone not to become SoSH we need to attract new posters. There are growing pains when it comes to that. You see fewer duplicate threads in ORG than in Reds Live for a reason... experience. Nobody in ORG minds when threads get merged.

Storage of threads isn't as much of an issue as overall bandwidth usage. Consolidating threads helps as we don't have to look through 10 different threads reading the same material, but new posters generally want to get their feet wet with their own thread. That thread may be a rehash of a topic everyone is all to familiar with, but we have to allow new posters to grow into their role in this community. That means sometimes we'll see multiple threads on the same topic. Merge them, explain why and move on. No harm, no foul.

Spitball
05-31-2006, 04:15 PM
Maybe some of these idea's might be good for all of us to ponder:

Watch your thoughts. They become words.
Watch your words. They become actions.
Watch your actions. They become habits.
Watch your habits. They become your character.
Watch your character. It becomes your destiny.

I won't quote your whole post in the interest of space, but I like what you posted.

I have several quotes on the walls of my classroom, but I think this one is applicable to all people:

What is important is to keep learning, to enjoy challenge, and to tolerate ambiguity. In the end there are no certain answers.-Martina Horner, President of Radcliffe College

red-in-la
05-31-2006, 05:07 PM
What is important is to keep learning, to enjoy challenge, and to tolerate ambiguity. In the end there are no certain answers.-Martina Horner, President of Radcliffe College

The death of objective truth.....:D :D :D :D

TStuck
05-31-2006, 05:08 PM
You're in Boss and GIK's living room.

You were invited here to hang out with other baseball fans.

You are benefitting from the labor and imagination of two guys who saw a need and filled it. They filled it so well that it's the premier living room for Cincinnati Reds fans to hang out in anywhere.

All they ask is that you play nice and follow those rules down at the bottom of the page.

But it's still their living room and they get to decide how wild the party gets.

Ah... here is the heart of this entire discussion. Everyone needs to realize that every one who is a member here enjoys the PRIVILEGE of posting here. I repeat this is a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT. The owners of this board "invite" us to come and discuss a favorite topic - our beloved Reds. Since it is their house, THE OWNERS have the right to establish the ground rules (which they have) and enforce them as they see fit (which they try to do). As house guests, we are asked to observe and abide by the rules. Come on folks, this is etiquette 101. Let's stop all the feuding and get back to doing what this place was created for - TALKIN' REDS BASEBALL!:thumbup:

Ltlabner
05-31-2006, 05:23 PM
The more I think about this, and the more posts I read convinces me that what changes need to be made to the board are this: nothing. I wouldn't change a thing.

The rules are in place to manage offesnive, attacking, troll-esque, ranting, excessivley negative behavior and the ability to lock threads, delete threads, boot individuals, etc is already in place for the mods. To help vets mentor new people in the ways of "redszone" the rep system is already in place to reward good posts and the neg reps are there so the board members can "self-moderate". For the new people the ability to gain said rep is already in place via making good posts that stand out and add something to the discussion. The ability to contact an individual who offends or hurts your feelings is in place already (ie the private message feature) so differences can be worked out in private between adults.

The ablity to merge threads to deal with duplicates exists. The ability to deal with threads that bore you exists (i.e. don't read it). If you want to follow the game and make game related comments you are able to do so via the game thread. If you want to follow the game and make random, off the cuff, off-topic and/or off-color comments you have the ability to do so via the chat room feature.

We have the all tools we need thanks to the generoisty of others. The real question is whether we will be responsible enough to use them to our advantage to enhance our Reds forum experience or simply focus on what we want, what we think, and how we feel life should happen.

Spitball
05-31-2006, 06:02 PM
The death of objective truth.....:D :D :D :D
;) ;) ;)

Mario-Rijo
05-31-2006, 06:36 PM
Or maybe some people need to step away from the T.V. and Radio during Red's broadcasts for awhile. Go swimming, read a book, watch a movie do something fun because it's painfully obvious that some here need a break from the Red's more than this board. Certainly it doesn't help that when they irritate the crap out of ya, somebody is there to needle you when you are down. So by all means take a sick day, when ya can't stands it no more.


I myself just step away from the baseball and put the remote down! :thumbup:

OldRightHander
05-31-2006, 07:13 PM
Ah... here is the heart of this entire discussion. Everyone needs to realize that every one who is a member here enjoys the PRIVILEGE of posting here. I repeat this is a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT. The owners of this board "invite" us to come and discuss a favorite topic - our beloved Reds. Since it is their house, THE OWNERS have the right to establish the ground rules (which they have) and enforce them as they see fit (which they try to do). As house guests, we are asked to observe and abide by the rules. Come on folks, this is etiquette 101. Let's stop all the feuding and get back to doing what this place was created for - TALKIN' REDS BASEBALL!:thumbup:

Amen

SandyD
05-31-2006, 07:17 PM
Actually, for me, the low points of the baseball season are just as important as the high points. Baseball is as much about failure as it is about success. It's about building success out of failure.

The best team in baseball will lose roughly a third of it's games, and the worst will likely win about a third. The best batter makes an out over half the time. Most, about 2/3rds? A pitcher will get the out more often than not, yet there's a losing pitcher every game.

Some wins are self-aggrandizing when your team CLOBBERS their opponent. Some are hilarious when the opposing team seems to hand the game to yours. Some are uplifting and exhilarating, such as a walk-off home run in the bottom of the ninth, or the bottom of the 13th, such as Junior vs Dodgers in 2002. (I was there.) Maybe even a bloop single or a sac fly that allows the winning run to score. But you have to take the losses too. Crushing defeats, comedies of errors, painful loses when the BP gives up a 9 run lead to a lower tier team in the ninth. You just can't let those get you down. Because tomorrow (or the next day), there's another game.

It's a long and grueling season. I'm just glad it's May and not September.

:beerme:

Unassisted
05-31-2006, 08:16 PM
Everyone needs to realize that every one who is a member here enjoys the PRIVILEGE of posting here. I repeat this is a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT. The owners of this board "invite" us to come and discuss a favorite topic - our beloved Reds. Since it is their house, THE OWNERS have the right to establish the ground rules (which they have) and enforce them as they see fit (which they try to do). As house guests, we are asked to observe and abide by the rules. It is the owners' board, but it's not quite so cut-and-dried. Since some of us have seen fit to send a few shekels the owners' way via the tip jar, I would argue that a donors' investment is more than emotional... we have paid for the "privilege" you cite. (And paid for some other posters' privilege, I might add. :eek: ) In the same way that members vote for or against posts with rep, donors vote for or against the board's management (or continued existence) with a donation, or the lack thereof.

I plan to keep an eye on the decisions that come out of this feedback session and "vote" accordingly with my donation next year.

remdog
05-31-2006, 11:17 PM
In addition to what Unassisted said above you have to remember that if the party-goers decide to leave 'cause they aren't having a good time, then there is no party. At that point it doesn't matter who's living room it is.

This board is just like any other business; it's important to listen to what your customers want. It's my impression that this is what this thread is about. Boss started it so he must have perceived that there were some customers that weren't happy. He did a smart thing---he asked his customers what they would like. As long as the thread doesn't get out of hand it's likely that some useful changes will come out of this little 'rap session' and the board will be better and stronger and the party will go on in this particular laiving room.

Rem

reds44
05-31-2006, 11:21 PM
What if you don't give out positive rep points. Everyone starts at 0, and if you get bad rep you go into negatives. After a certain amount of time the negative rep doesn't count against you anymore. If you get a certain amount of negative reps then you are banned for a few days, then if you get more you are gone forever. This way you don't single out good posters, but you do bad ones.

It would kind of take away ORG, but I dunno just throwing things out.

bucksfan
06-01-2006, 12:22 AM
I cannot add much unique to the those views already posted. However in the spirit of everyone sharing their thoughts on the state of redszone...

1) I subscribe to the notion that it is Boss's and GIK's living room. If they wanted to ban the use of vowels tomorrow, that is their perogative.

2) I really don;t pay any attention to the rep system. So please no one take offense that I have not given much. I just read the posts and I form my opinions. However it is a tough concept for me to grasp to essentially "rate" others' opinions. IMO the rep system could go away tomorrow and I'd never miss it.

3) I don't care for the idea of a "dead horse" forum. One thing that makes me cringe is when someone fairly new posts something that I know many will consider to be something discussed ad nauseam in previous days/weeks/months/or even years. There is almost always some condescending remarks or even outright insults hurled their way for daring to bring up such a frequently discussed subject. I never understood this. Someone can be the smartest baseball person and biggest Reds fan in the world, find this site in his/her 20 mintues of internet time one night, and just make a post. Most people are not going to want to research a site, note tendencies and "rewarded behaviors', etc before posting. They are just happy to be at a place to discuss Reds baseball. I hardly psot or start a thread regarding Reds'specific info because I am sure it proabably has been discussed before and as much as I love the Reds AND this site, I don't have time or want to spend the time to search out if my topic has been addressed previously.

4) Regarding the ORG forum, I thought it was an OK idea at the start but honeslty I could do without it also. I find myself rarely, if ever at all, recognizing what gforum I am browsing anyway. Sometimes I get confused if I read it in ORG or RL. I'd rather be exposed to all the posters in one forum.

5) I have learned a ton here thanks primarily to Boss and GIK for providing this forum to begin with, and also to the many contributing posters, both past and present. Only real changes I would make honestly is to go back to how it was pre-ORG/rep as I don't know if it really helped anything other than to create a set of issues with rep points.

6) Regarding any perceived or otherwise cliques- when you have a message board that has been in existence for this long and centers around an activity such as baseball, it is very reasonable to expect people will eventually meet and some will develop friendships. IMO that is to be expected and even helps strengthen the community as long as people are not so blinded by these relationships that they forget how to treat everyone else.

Man, what is it - 12:20? I need to sleep...

Cedric
06-01-2006, 12:48 AM
I cannot add much unique to the those views already posted. However in the spirit of everyone sharing their thoughts on the state of redszone...

1) I subscribe to the notion that it is Boss's and GIK's living room. If they wanted to ban the use of vowels tomorrow, that is their perogative.

2) I really don;t pay any attention to the rep system. So please no one take offense that I have not given much. I just read the posts and I form my opinions. However it is a tough concept for me to grasp to essentially "rate" others' opinions. IMO the rep system could go away tomorrow and I'd never miss it.

3) I don't care for the idea of a "dead horse" forum. One thing that makes me cringe is when someone fairly new posts something that I know many will consider to be something discussed ad nauseam in previous days/weeks/months/or even years. There is almost always some condescending remarks or even outright insults hurled their way for daring to bring up such a frequently discussed subject. I never understood this. Someone can be the smartest baseball person and biggest Reds fan in the world, find this site in his/her 20 mintues of internet time one night, and just make a post. Most people are not going to want to research a site, note tendencies and "rewarded behaviors', etc before posting. They are just happy to be at a place to discuss Reds baseball. I hardly psot or start a thread regarding Reds'specific info because I am sure it proabably has been discussed before and as much as I love the Reds AND this site, I don't have time or want to spend the time to search out if my topic has been addressed previously.

4) Regarding the ORG forum, I thought it was an OK idea at the start but honeslty I could do without it also. I find myself rarely, if ever at all, recognizing what gforum I am browsing anyway. Sometimes I get confused if I read it in ORG or RL. I'd rather be exposed to all the posters in one forum.

5) I have learned a ton here thanks primarily to Boss and GIK for providing this forum to begin with, and also to the many contributing posters, both past and present. Only real changes I would make honestly is to go back to how it was pre-ORG/rep as I don't know if it really helped anything other than to create a set of issues with rep points.

6) Regarding any perceived or otherwise cliques- when you have a message board that has been in existence for this long and centers around an activity such as baseball, it is very reasonable to expect people will eventually meet and some will develop friendships. IMO that is to be expected and even helps strengthen the community as long as people are not so blinded by these relationships that they forget how to treat everyone else.

Man, what is it - 12:20? I need to sleep...

I haven't been around much lately so I've missed most of this thread. I agree with what you say about the clique thing. I can't really understand how people wouldn't expect friendships to be developed over this long a time. I don't think the people that are always said to be in the "clique" are blinded by their relationships, but obviously they are going to have the same foundation of beliefs on things they see on the diamond, that's just common sense. That's what would help develop the strong friendship.

This site can't be anywhere near perfect for new posters. It has to be intimidating on some level. Hopefully the new posters will realize how great this website is and will have the guts to stick around and fire away.

Again, once people get involved and get into the flow of things they will appreciate criticism a little better and not take it personally.

I think a key to getting more familiar with this site is learning your own personal flaws. I'm still sensitive about my opinions on the game and I know that I have trouble sometimes using the written word to convey my thoughts on the game of baseball. Some of what I see I can't describe in as perfect detail as other posters. This has helped me to learn how to step back and not try and force my opinion down others throats.

This site will challenge you, you will NOT go without getting your feelings hurt or your ego bruised. Even the best have had it.

redsupport
06-01-2006, 01:44 AM
It seems lioke an excellent forum for thought provoking theories

pedro
06-01-2006, 01:48 AM
Although I have stated that I like the idea of the "dead horse" forums, I have to say that there are quite a few of us that I really respect that have given persuasive arguments against it as well.


TMBS, I was also against the creation of the minor league forum and that seems to have worked out quite well so I guess I don't know what I'm trying to say. ;)

savafan
06-01-2006, 02:33 AM
While reading this entire thread, I have seen some ask what is a quality post. What kind of post will earn you positive rep points. I'd like to point out a few.


Might as well make my jaded commentary on this here thread which could be renamed "The Never Ending Story"

People who don't think we're watching the greatest athletes in baseball history are just wrong - Reds Faithful

Yep. Just about all the players from the 30s wouldn't do squat if they were transplanted into today's game as is. 20 year olds looked about 30, bodies were smaller overall, no one weight trained (Lord forbid that makes you musclebound don't you know). The most popular diet supplement was liquid malt barley in one form or 'nuther. Juiced meant a guy played better drunk, you slept on clanking, rocking, creaking trains and spent weeks on the road, living in pullman's and hotel rooms. Nutritional theory was the more fatty red meat the better and exercise was generally considered only in spring training if you weren't smart enough to get out of it then. If you pulled a muscle or tweaked a hammy you rubbed some homemade balm into it, gritted your teeth, shut your fool mouth and played the game. There was some kid playing out in the cornbelt who was hellbent to take your job and your boss was hellbent to give it to him if you faltered for a second. After all you were making 5 grand a year and he could pay that kid 1200 and a train ticket to do the same thing. You might be better but not if you're hurt - why give the kid any chance at showing his stuff. Keep playing. Sanitation was nonexistent. Well, okay, most guys washed their face once a day and a few bathed more than once a week, but only a few. Uniforms were worn until they could play the game by themselves. Don't tear it either - get a needle and darn it up - if the club has to buy another one for you before midpoint they'd deduct it from your check. Heck that's about 6 bottles of whiskey and a night with a Philly hooker! Players would have made good footballers though with all that weight. Wool uniforms full of sweat and 3 pounds of fermented dirt, heavy leather shoes with razored steel cleats, cotton unders and a patch of leather on your off-ham and you were playing with 20 pounds of itchy, scratchy, buggy, sometimes soggy, baggy mucilaginous fiber clinging to your every move. Compare that to today's featherweight outfits and shoes that weigh 6 ounces! Training equipment consisted of medicine balls, a big field and for pitchers, a wall to throw against. Knocking bottles off posts was a favorite way for kids to practice control, pitching off a concrete stoop and catching the rebounds, tossing at birds or rabbits and hitting rocks as far as you could were other disciplines of rigorous training. Stickball WAS great - it taught incredible bat control and concentration. You try hitting a small ball with a broomstick and see how well you do. Stickball in the streets is overlooked as a way to teach youngsters today. I'm seriuos. That's how I always coached my kids when I was involved in Pony baseball. I'd start out with stickball games and oven mitts for gloves. Bragging now but in twelve years coaching tykes we never once failed to win twice as many as we lost and a ton of my boys made allstar teams every year. Nothing special I did - just the stickball and oven mitts. Catch with an oven mitt and by gosh you WILL use 2 hands. Swing with a broomstick at a little rubber ball half the sizer of a baseball and by the time we played with real bats and balls and gloves the kids hardly missed anything. Easier to straighten out swings when they're hefting a broomstick, too. Helps them select the right weight bat, too. Most kids try to swing way too heavy. Anyway, drifting - back to former athletes.
Today's players are far better athletes. Work regimens are religiously adhered to, scientific principles are utilized, professionals in kinesiology, nutrition, conditioning for specific functions, flexibility, even psychology are employed to help players train. In the 30s and 40s you were too busy at your 2nd job during the offseason to train much. During the season some guys main exercise consisted of bouncin a different Betty in every town you visited and brawling in saloons. There were lots of "good" guys, too, that had families and religion. They loafed around the hotel reading, writing letters and playing cards. Not every player was a hell-raiser but the ripsnorts probably got more exercise viz less sleep. Top it off with the fact that communicable diseases were widespread, nutrition from the cradle to grave was sometimes good but inconsistent. Food followed the economy - lots of people ate thin soup and litle else when times were slow. For lots of kids times was always slow. Then as now the greatest weapon against poverty was hard work but then as now there were lots of folk who ignored that fact. There was no foodstamps, no unemployment checks, no welfare boards to take up the slack for the children. If your parents were unlucky, or bums, or down and out, then you didn't eat much. You spent your hours in the streets, playing stickball, pitching against that stoop, playing burnout with your buddies and breathing, sleeping, dreaming baseball. Then you're 16 and good - you play on a town team or maybe a factory boss pays you 3 bucks a game to play on their team and gives your old man a job to boot. You learn the game the hard way against guys who'll spike you, crash into you, trip you and rag you unmercifully -nothing sacred, mothers not spared. You small and young and facing a hulk of a pitcher who throws 85 ( fast enough back then) and spits tobacco with every pitch. He's dug a rut 6 inches in front of the rubber, too and pitches from there - the umps are scared of him so who's going to stop him? You know you can't pull him so you slap at the ball and poke it into left with a bit of spin - the ball caroms off into foul gorund after striking fair and you run like a jackrabbit, skipping over the first baseman's extended foot, ducking the elbow aimed at your ribs the 2nd sacker points your way and you slide into third with your spikes up and slashing. Not trying to hurt the guy, just keeping him from getting close enough to stomp on you when he sweeps the tag.
A couple years of this and a scout sees you and signs you for a ticket and fifty bucks and sends you to Red Oak, Iowa to play. You're 18 and weigh 140 sopping wet. Your face is drawn and you look 30 by today's standards but everyone in Red Oak calls you Cheeks because they think you have a "babyface". You're scrawny, undernourished, wiry strong but no one today would call you an athlete. Didn't then, either - you are a ballplayer. Big difference. Athletes are born - ballplayers are forged from runny gruel, concrete stoops, bouncing balls, broomsticks and hard knocks. You know all the dirty tricks - better known as essential survival techniques. At 21, you make the show. You do well, you're a 2nd baseman. You get on base any way you can, you holler at the pitcher, you steal when you can but only when its necessary. Go the other way, bunt, squeeze, and you've learned to swing from the heels when the pitcher is predictable. You use whatever you've been given, and you learn everything you can, every nuance possible. You are successful and your twetnies are golden years. Then you're 30. Within 2 or 3 years your career will be over. Your joints hurt, you've lost a couple of steps. You've played through aches and strains, and punished yourself for a decade to fend off the stream of prospects trying to unseat you. And now it happens. You're traded for no one inparticular to a terrible team. You play a couple years, your numbers aren't that bad but thwe little things are gone. You can't steal anymore, triples are doubles and doubles are singles and that kid up from Tuscaloosa that throws 92 just blows it by you. You retire at 33. You are old, ancient by baseball standards. You've never touched a weight set, never taken a vitamin or mineral supplement, never even heard of yoga or yogurt, never had a personal or team trainer, you have the beginnings of gout, and have had chicken pox, measles, mumps, rubella, and a variety of flus during your career. Mostly you played through it all and let your natural vitality cure it. You have a permanently bent finger from the time you broke it on a ball that jammed it, then you taped it, grimaced and played on. You have hammer toe because you played in second hand shoes for all those early years and the toe was too tight. You don't even know its why you couldn't run worth a damn anymore when you were just 30. You were a ballplayer. Now you're 33 and you're nothing. No job, no other skills, no player's association to write you a check. You take a job as a coach. You'll teach the same misguided theories and scoff at new advances in nutrition and training for years, delaying major advances in your sport until the mid to late 60s when rising salaries and advancing knowledge begins to change the way athletes take care of themselves and baseball begins to scout athletes for their potential instead of ballplayers for their skills. The theory is you can teach skills but you can't teach speed or genetics. In the back of my mind, this old man realizes they are right, but I miss the pure ballplayers. The ones who raised hell and tripped guys as they rounded second. The ones who took whatever you gave em and used it against you. When I was a child I watched ordinary men with extraordinary skills playing a game I loved. Today, I watch demi-gods of athleticism with lithe, muscular bodies play my beloved sport. The hope for the everyday joe, who works hard, who hones his skills fanatically, to play at the highest level, is almost gone. Yes, today's athletes are incredible and outclass their counterparts of yesteryear. They are not nearly as much fun to watch or follow.


So many fallacies, misconceptions, and distortions, so little time. By definition, Adam Dunn is *never* "easy to approach" or an easy out, in any situation. You see, in 2005 in every situational batting condition, involving At Bats with baserunners On Base, Adam boasts a 500+OBP. Yes, 500+, which is staggering, when you consider the implications: When Adam strides to the plate with a runner anywhere on the basepaths, he's going to get a hit or walk better than 50% of the time. Likewise, he provides ample power in those same situations, with a Slugging% between .533-and-.615 in all baserunner involved Plate Appearances. In direct contrast to what you assert about Adam's At Bats with Runners On Base, even his Batting Average has increased with Runners On and RISP w/2 out, when compared to his Bases Empty BA (.267 versus .247).

Contrary to what you say, in 2005, Adam's numbers are better across the board in situations where the basepaths are littered with runners. Even though he has been walked in 22 of his 66 TPA's with Runners On, due to the fear he instills in opposing pitchers who prefer to make use of his ill-advised placement in the #5 hole to pitch around him, Adam has managed *half* of his 16 total Extrabase Hits with Runners On. That's made more amazing by the fact that he has only HALF as many ABs with Runners On, as he does with the bases empty (yet another indicator of the misplacement of him in the lineup, for both OBP and SLG driven RBI reasons).

As opposed to his 949 OPS with the Bases Empty, Adam has an epic OPS between 1110-and-1217 in each situation where Runners are On, RISP and RISP w/2 Out. And that's not generated by the misnomer "soft BB", as he absolutely mashes in those situations, as well. That's the opposite of what you indicate about Dunn's production/performance with Runners On. The fact that his K/AB ratio increases during those situational ABs, also indicates that, knowing he is often going to be pitched around with Runners On, at #5, with far lesser hitters behind him in the order, he's consciously willing to expand his zone some to try to drive in more Runs, which is probably counterproductive.

You've chosen to make the youngest, most productive offensive player the Reds have had in recent history your personal whipping boy, providing no substantial evidence to support your contentions of personal whim, and without ever alluding to the inferior production of his elder, more expensive supporting cast, nor the league worst, historically bad rotation. It's a tired, personal vendetta... but the bright side is that with every post, you unwittingly use numbers which make a better and better case for Adam Dunn being the centerpiece of this franchise, one of the elite young producers in the game, and the only Reds player worthy of the #3 spot and long-term commitment. Well done, and thanks for making our case for us, so routinely, even as you fail to ever directly respond to posts/criteria which controvert your unsubstantiated instincts to the contrary. ;)


I wanted to share with you all some old research I did about high school pitchers taken in the first round. Hopefully, this will give everyone a sense of how large the Reds' gamble was.

Between 1990 and 1996, there were 40 high school pitchers taken in the first round. A total of $42.859 million was been spent on bonus money for these guys (of course the going rate is higher).

- 27 out of the 40 (67.5%) pitchers were busts
- 2 more (5%) will probably be busts
- 1 (2.5%) is a horrible major league pitcher
- 4 of them (10%) had a good year or so then flamed out with injuries
- 4 of them (10%) are actually good major league pitchers
- 1, and only 1 (2.5%), Kerry Wood, is an all-star quality player

I've never seen Grueler pitch. But hopefully this will give some perspective on how big a gamble the Reds are taking.

5 *Kurt Miller, rhp, Pirates 232,000 1990 bust
9 *Ron Walden, lhp, Dodgers 215,000 1990 bust
25 *Robbie Beckett, lhp, Padres 175,000 1990 bust
1 *Brien Taylor, lhp, Yankees $1,550,000 1991 bust
15 *Tyrone Hill, lhp, Brewers 280,000 1991 bust
18 *Al Shirley, of, Mets 245,000 1991 bust
22 *Brian Barber, rhp, Cardinals 200,000 1991 bust
17 *Jim Pittsley, rhp, Royals 410,000 1992 bust
26 *Dan Serafini, lhp, Twins 350,000 1992 bust
8 *Kirk Presley, rhp, Mets 900,000 1993 bust
13 *Matt Drews, rhp, Yankees 620,000 1993 bust
15 *Jayson Peterson, rhp, Cubs 712,500 1994 bust
16 *Matt Smith, lhp-1b, Royals 1,000,000 1994 bust
27 *Jacob Shumate, rhp, Braves 500,000 1994 bust
15 *Andy Yount, rhp, Red Sox 986,000 1995 bust
16 *Joe Fontenot, rhp, Giants 900,000 1995 bust
17 *Todd Noel, rhp, Cubs 900,000 1996 bust
21 *Jake Westbrook, rhp, Rockies 750,000 1996 bust
24 *Sam Marsonek, rhp, Rangers 834,000 1996 bust
26 *Josh Garrett, rhp, Red Sox 665,000 1996 bust
7 *Doug Million, lhp, Rockies 905,000 1994 Died tragically (asthma attack), but was awful in the minors and appeared to be a bust waiting to happen.
5 *John Patterson, rhp, Expos/DBacks 6,075,000 1996 helped send the Dbacks toward bankrupcy
7 *Matt White, rhp, Giants/DRays 10,200,000 1996 helped send the Drays toward bankrupcy
12 *Bobby Seay, lhp, White Sox/DRays 3,000,000 1996 helped send the Drays toward bankrupcy
22 *Tony McKnight, rhp, Astros 500,000 1995 net value was a rental of Mike Williams for the 2001 stretch run
14 #*Todd Van Poppel, rhp, Athletics 500,000 1990 of no value to team that drafted him
12 *Todd Ritchie, rhp, Twins 252,500 1990 released by team that drafted him before succeeding later
5 *Kenny Henderson, rhp, Brewers Did not sign 1991 DNS
30 *Nick Bierbrodt, lhp, Diamondbacks 1,046,000 1996 will probably be a bust
22 *Gil Meche, rhp, Mariners 820,000 1996 will be a bust unless he recovers from injury
28 *Jamey Wright, rhp, Rockies 395,000 1993 not a bust, but a bad major league starting pitcher. Doesn't throw strikes.
23 *Jeff D'Amico, rhp, Brewers 525,000 1993 Dominant in 2000; worthless to Brewers in other years due to injury
11 *Adam Eaton, rhp, Phillies 1,100,000 1996 looked very promising in short major league stint. Career may be over due to injury.
10 *Jaret Wright, rhp, Indians 1,150,000 1994 Short, immediate success in majors before flaming out due to injury
25 *Scott Elarton, rhp, Astros 750,000 1994 Short, immediate success in majors before flaming out due to injury
17 *Roy Halladay, rhp, Blue Jays 895,000 1995 excellent pick
15 *Chris Carpenter, rhp, Blue Jays 580,000 1993 middle of rotation starter; has pitched over 200 innings only once
22 *Steve Karsay, rhp, Blue Jays 180,000 1990 success came near his free agent years
11 *Shawn Estes, lhp, Mariners 332,500 1991 valuable major league player in his best years, despite walking many batters
4 *Kerry Wood, rhp, Cubs 1,265,000 1995 worth every penny, even though he was of no use to the Cubs for 1.5 years due to injury


I'd wager my firstborn that Jimmy Haynes does not reach 14 wins.

The last one is a personal favorite. ;)

Spitball
06-01-2006, 10:49 AM
While reading this entire thread, I have seen some ask what is a quality post. What kind of post will earn you positive rep points. I'd like to point out a few.

The last one is a personal favorite. ;)

Nice. :thumbup:

KronoRed
06-01-2006, 04:20 PM
That's the real important issue.

Did we ever get FCB's firstborn? :D

klw
06-01-2006, 04:31 PM
That's the real important issue.

Did we ever get FCB's firstborn? :D

FCB's firstborn was sent to the Sons of Sam Horn for a 3 year old lefthander and a third born to be named later.

Puffy
06-01-2006, 04:55 PM
While reading this entire thread, I have seen some ask what is a quality post. What kind of post will earn you positive rep points. I'd like to point out a few.


Another one is:


anything Puffy says......

Ltlabner
06-01-2006, 04:56 PM
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/messageboards/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6701

Here's a link to one of the "quality posts" that are currently going on at cincinnati.com. It's a perfect example of why this board is fantastic and we should all use the tools already available to us to keep it great.

Some of the treads over there have gotten very vulgar. If you'd rather not expose yourself to that tripe, just take my word for it that it's a cesspool. I tried to pick out a clean thread to link to here, but read it at your own risk.

saboforthird
06-01-2006, 06:13 PM
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/messageboards/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6701

Here's a link to one of the "quality posts" that are currently going on at cincinnati.com. It's a perfect example of why this board is fantastic and we should all use the tools already available to us to keep it great.

Some of the treads over there have gotten very vulgar. If you'd rather not expose yourself to that tripe, just take my word for it that it's a cesspool. I tried to pick out a clean thread to link to here, but read it at your own risk.

I'm with you, LT. I don't particularly care for a lot of vulgarity in posts, or threads for that matter. Still, I'm not sure what is worse. EVERYONE cussing and screwing with one another, disagreements being met with a pat on the back, or....... long, winded, condescending "lectures" about why we should either conform or leave.

Hubba
06-01-2006, 07:19 PM
Oh now I see long winded is the answer.


savafan]While reading this entire thread, I have seen some ask what is a quality post. What kind of post will earn you positive rep points. I'd like to point out a few.











The last one is a personal favorite. ;)[/quote]

GAC
06-01-2006, 09:12 PM
But are rep pts issued on here because one is respectful? Or because one makes statements/posts that agrees with (gets in step) with how someone else believes the game should be played and evaluated?

That's my problem with the rep system. Over time, I've really come to know some posters on Reds Live (via chat) who seem to be pretty level-headed and common sense fans. We don't always agree, but via our discussions, I see where they would be valuable additions to the forum.

But they voice their frustration, after being on Reds Live for quite some period of time, in not getting rep pts. And if rep pts is the only way one gets access to ORG, then what do they have to do to get them?

If we are gonna utilize a rep system, and if so many on ORG believe in it, then they are, IMO, responsible to use it. If it is because of apathy or indifference that one is not, then we, as a forum, are basically screwing some over, and keeping them "trapped", because they are relying on us to evaluate/promote them.

They have no other means available.

In the past, I have not been very good at issuing rep pts. So I am guilty. I've never negged anyone, and never will. That's just me.

But I have begun to issue rep pts - and not based on that poster making statements that agree with GAC, or how GAC thinks the game should be played; but more in-line with getting to know that individual(s), and seeing that they can/will contribute to the forum, regardless of their viewpoints (agreeable or disagreeable).

If (and I emphasize "IF") ORG posters are withholding rep pts because they disagree with one's thoughts/ideology on the game of baseball, and that their "wrongness" (not a lack of respect or approach; personality) is the reason why they shouldn't be allowed admission to ORG, then I find that wrong, and almost an air of elitism that I find distasteful.

I don't think that is the intent/purpose of this forum... "get in line, and we'll allow you in".

Diversity is good. ;)

saboforthird
06-01-2006, 09:36 PM
Another method of "scoring" posters, such as used in the movie "Dangerous Minds" (think "Gangsta's Paradise", great song), is to start everyone off with a perfect score, and subtract for infractions. As time goes on, those sores (infractions) begin to heal, and the score goes back up. And, I don't think points should ever be "rewarded" in this type of scoring system. Rewarding posts tends to put posters under pressure, and causes posters to privately (PM's) help each other out (as evidenced by other posters in this thread). So:

- score can never be above 100 (you could even institute a "grade", 90-100 = A)
- score goes back up over time and slightly faster when poster continues to contribute to the forum
- score can be knocked down for infractions
- score can never be increased by any other means than time
- poster can have a grade of "I" for inactive if not contributing within 30 days

Just a thought. :)

GullyFoyle
06-01-2006, 10:55 PM
But are rep pts issued on here because one is respectful? Or because one makes statements/posts that agrees with (gets in step) with how someone else believes the game should be played and evaluated?

I've always assumed rep points where for individuals who added something worthwhile to the discussion... which is different than agreeing with me.

Frankly, I've given points to people I totally disagree with, but they made interesting posts.

RFS62
06-01-2006, 10:58 PM
Frankly, I've given points to people I totally disagree with, but they made interesting posts.


Me too.

SteelSD
06-01-2006, 11:18 PM
Me too.

Ditto. I've gladly handed rep points to people on the complete opposite side of an issue but who are providing well thought out contrary positions- even during a heated debate. Being challenged by a skilled logical debate adversary is knowledge gain one way or another. I appreciate knowledge gain tremendously.

gonelong
06-01-2006, 11:28 PM
I've always assumed rep points where for individuals who added something worthwhile to the discussion... which is different than agreeing with me.

Frankly, I've given points to people I totally disagree with, but they made interesting posts.

I try to rep things that make the board interesting to read, whether I agree with them or not is immaterial.

I go out of my way to give pts to people that bring up information that I don't agree with if it provides interesting conversations on the board. Heck, I even repped BF a few times when he posted something close to thought provoking.

GL

savafan
06-02-2006, 12:52 AM
Frankly, I've given points to people I totally disagree with, but they made interesting posts.

Same here. I'd say about 50% of the points I've given out were to posts that I didn't agree with, but that they were very well thought out and interesting. I've often given rep to those who have created threads that lead to great discussions as well.

savafan
06-02-2006, 12:53 AM
Oh now I see long winded is the answer.




No, thought provoking is the answer.

billy117
06-02-2006, 02:10 AM
I know that there have been many suggestions to change the rep points system, and personally I have no problem with it the way it is (not that someone who is failing in the current program should be allowed to suggest changes). But that's not the reason I posted, I do have one question about the current system. Do you get 10 points for signing up? I only ask because well....

And I hope I'm not breaking any rules, I read and memorized the six commandments and this didn't violate them but I think I read something about not talking about rep points, but I am honestly just asking.

savafan
06-02-2006, 02:13 AM
I know that there have been many suggestions to change the rep points system, and personally I have no problem with it the way it is (not that someone who is failing in the current program should be allowed to suggest changes). But that's not the reason I posted, I do have one question about the current system. Do you get 10 points for signing up? I only ask because well....

And I hope I'm not breaking any rules, I read and memorized the six commandments and this didn't violate them but I think I read something about not talking about rep points, but I am honestly just asking.

Yes, everyone starts out with 10.

Ron Madden
06-02-2006, 03:15 AM
The way I see It.

We can waste time bickering back and forth on a bunch of issues that don't mean a hill o' beans.

Or we can learn from one another.

I think it's silly to worry about rep points, or to think our own opinions must go unchallenged just because we believe them to be true.

Reds.com is where you want to go if you want to read a bunch of garbage or post false information.


I love RedsZone for what it is.

There is no need of repair here. Please, Let It Be.

KittyDuran
06-02-2006, 08:19 AM
Heck, I even repped BF a few times when he posted something close to thought provoking.Me, too...:redface: Let's not forget that all of us were new to this board at one time. Heck, one of my first post, I called someone "crazy" because of a differing opinion. The next post was TeamBoone basically telling me that type of post is not allowed on the board. I was upset but cooled off to keep on posting. I also remember others who I thought for sure would be banned for life, but they turned around and became valuable members of the board.

vaticanplum
06-02-2006, 10:08 AM
Me too.

Me three or four...but I've really had to stop myself from negging people for unsubstantiated Yankee hating! :D

(I've never negged anybody actually...I think it would take something really offensive for me to do that.)

GAC
06-02-2006, 10:08 AM
I know Boss put up a sticky at one time; but is there a place on the forum that fully explains the rep system to those of us on ORG who don't really understand how it works and how it is to be utilized?

What are the rules and stipulations as to how rep pts can be issued?

remdog
06-02-2006, 10:20 AM
.....or to think our own opinions must go unchallenged just because we believe them to be true.

There is no need of repair here. Please, Let It Be.

Ummm.....Ron that would be an opinion, would it not? :) The very existence of this thread says that there is a need of repair here. :evil:

Rem

gonelong
06-02-2006, 11:29 AM
Ummm.....Ron that would be an opinion, would it not? :) The very existence of this thread says that there is a need of repair here. :evil:

Rem

It only means there was a need to dicuss the possbility of a need for repair. :)

Now that people have a better feel for the situation, both Live and ORG posters, we'll get a chance to see if there is need of repair or not. :p:

GL

GullyFoyle
06-02-2006, 12:06 PM
I know Boss put up a sticky at one time; but is there a place on the forum that fully explains the rep system to those of us on ORG who don't really understand how it works and how it is to be utilized?

What are the rules and stipulations as to how rep pts can be issued?

This was the best I could find:


A new forum will in turn be created, dubbed Reds Live! Within this forum, a built-in vBulletin (the forum software the site uses) reputation system will be created. This allows for members with Old Red Guard posting access to rate a poster who does not have access to the main forum, based solely on the quality of their posts in the Reds Live! forum. Once a user's reputation ranking reaches 200 points, he or she will be free to post in the primary forum, if they wish. Additionally, a user must meet some basic minimum requirements: being a registered member for at least 30 days and at least 60 posts. A poster can lose ORG access if his or her reputation level drops below 100 points.

and this


Members are able to assign reputation values depending upon his or her reputation power. Reputation power is derived from multiple factors - not all members assign the same value. For each year a member has been registered as a member of this site, they receive 1 power point. For every 4000 posts a member has made, they receive 1 power point. For every 150 reputation points a member has accumulated, they receive 1 power point. A member may be ranked both positively and negatively. This will, in effect, allow the community to moderate itself. Negative reputation only detracts HALF of what a positive reputation remark adds to a user's score.

Users with the ability to give out reputation to other users are allotted two daily reputation clicks. This is purposely set low to encourage the user leaving reputation to put some degree of thought into whether or not a given post truly deserves positive or negative reputation. Finally, to prevent reputation inflation, a user with the ability to leave reputation must spread reputation to 15 unique users before he or she can leave reputation for the same user again.

The Old Red Guard and Reds Live! will follow the simple mission statement RedsZone had upon its creation: "Intelligent baseball discussion. Quality over quantity."

Here: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35437

vaticanplum
06-02-2006, 12:14 PM
Ah I wondered why when I gave rep it isn't very much! I need more posts! Emoticon posts, here I come!!! :p:

(Wow, i have put more thought into this than I probably should.)

GullyFoyle
06-02-2006, 12:30 PM
Here: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35437

I would recommend duping the above thread/post and keeping it a permanent sticky on Reds Live or ORG. I don't think many people know it is there and you can only get to it (as far as I know) from the opening page of the board, which few people visit. (My books marks are directly for RL and ORG)


Edit: Actually you can get it in the Archives... but it is still a little out of the way.

GullyFoyle
06-02-2006, 12:41 PM
... positive reputation should only be given for a poster making what YOU consider to be a quality post that adds value to the board. Reputation should not be given because a user asks for it, because you know the user personally/like him or her, or because the user has been around for a while, or ANY reasoning along these lines. Conversely, negative reputation should not be given as a way of handling personal disputes - only if the post violates the core values of what this site is all about. The rules, posted at the bottom of every page, are a good guideline as to what is, and isn't, acceptable.

Found another post in The Archives dealing with rep... who knew you could find good stuff there :laugh:

Here: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43963

BTW, the default in the Archives only shows the last months worth of threads and that usually misses most of the good ones.

KronoRed
06-02-2006, 03:23 PM
Emoticon posts, here I come!!! :p:
Well done :devil:

savafan
06-02-2006, 04:39 PM
Question:

Does all draft pick signings threads, and transactions involving washed up major league pitchers at AAA go in the Down on the Farm forum?

KronoRed
06-02-2006, 04:40 PM
Question:

Does all draft pick signings threads, and transactions involving washed up major league pitchers at AAA go in the Down on the Farm forum?
I would think so, since it involves the goings on of the minor league teams.
:dunno:

Ltlabner
06-02-2006, 04:44 PM
WARNING: OFF TOPIC

KronoRed, I just noticed your post total. 43,258?!?! I am pretty new so I guess I just wasn't paying attention. Have you ever been accused of "juicing" your posts ala Bonds at the plate? Should their be some sort of 'roid investigation into your past performance?

Perhaps a change to the name of BalcoRed is in order.....:pimp:

KronoRed
06-02-2006, 04:49 PM
Hey! I'm 100% clean! and anyone who says differently is ANTI-Krono! :rant:



*

;)

savafan
06-02-2006, 04:52 PM
KronoRed, I just noticed your post total. 43,258?!?! I am pretty new so I guess I just wasn't paying attention. Have you ever been accused of "juicing" your posts ala Bonds at the plate? Should their be some sort of 'roid investigation into your past performance?



LOL, he's been accused of that numerous times.

OldRightHander
06-02-2006, 06:10 PM
WARNING: OFF TOPIC

KronoRed, I just noticed your post total. 43,258?!?! I am pretty new so I guess I just wasn't paying attention. Have you ever been accused of "juicing" your posts ala Bonds at the plate? Should their be some sort of 'roid investigation into your past performance?

Perhaps a change to the name of BalcoRed is in order.....:pimp:

We all know Krono is on the juice. He has admitted it several times. I just don't think science has yet found a real connection between apple juice and post counts.

Buckaholic
06-02-2006, 07:15 PM
I think it's noble that Boss decided to open up this thread and allow people to voice their concerns. I hope that he is sincere wanting to listen to what people have to say.

But if that's the case, I hope that moderators and administrators will listen to everyone, and not just a certain group of this forum.

There has been a private attempt by many posters here, some have spoken on this thread and many others have not, to voice displeasure in the way the forum has been run. Mainly, it has to do with the rep system, specifically how it is put in the hands of a certain portion of the forum and that portion is getting away with the treatment of other posters that newer or less prestigious posters are not.

I will cite some feedback I received through the private inbox here shortly about some of the problems on this forum (removing specific names so that it doesn't become personal) to show how some feedback seems to be overlooked.

But first, let me give my opinion on a few issues here.

Specifically on the rep system, I would make a few changes.

First, I like the idea to hide the rep points. I think the rep system does in fact create a "class society" and it also tends to be a popularity contest.

Within this thread, a certain list of posters with high rep points was used as an example towards respect and reputation of the forum. That list included...

westofyou
Cyclone792
M2
SteelSD
Caveat Emperor
RFS62

Without getting personal, as that's not my intent here, you will notice that these posters share a basic philisophical agreement about baseball when it comes to one of the absolute most controversial issues on this board - statistics versus baseball strategy and the practical use of. Sure, each of these respected posters have probably had individual disagreements in the past, but when it comes to the very most controversial issues on this board (I use Adam Dunn as an example), they will be seen sticking up for one side of the argument in every thread.

It is these threads, the controversial ones, that often create the most rep points negative or positive being handed down. It's also where many of the problems have derived.

So when a core issue is dividing the board and the rep system on said board functions on the opinions and decisions of one half of that divide, it's easy to see how a class society can be created and a popularity contest will follow.

I believe we should hide the rep points and also, I feel there should be a committee made up to reward posters with this rep system.

This committee should be made up of posters new and old. It should be made up of a group of posters that follow the rules and provide quality posts, but it should be sure to include posters from all different points of view - especially those subjects that create the most controversy on the forum.

When an alleged criminal is going before a jury of his peers, the jury selected is to include people from all walks of life. It's supposed to be diverse and made up of people that don't all think alike.

Why can't we put the rep system in the hands of a committee like that? It can be a combination of moderators and posters, but let's make sure it's fair and includes enough of a variety that it won't be a popularity contest and it will also give a fair chance to those quality posters that don't always side with the majority on the core issues.

Now on the "beating a dead horse topics.

Creating a seperate forum for topics considered to be "old and tiresome" is the most silly idea I've ever heard.

For starters, every day there are new posters joining this forum. For some of them, the topic is not old and they would like to discuss it.

Secondly, whatever happened to the ability to igore a topic you are tired of dealing with? Posters here, whether they have 1 post, 1,000 posts or 20,000 posts have the abillity and right to ignore a topic. If they choose to read it, they also have the discipline and ability not to respond.

Any topic that remains on topic of the Cincinnati Reds should be fair game. I agree with making sure there are not several threads of the same topic on the board being discussed at the same time, but as long as there is interest and a need for discussion - let it be.

Now back to the issue of concerns...

When dealing with the issues of rep points being handed out by the above list of posters and others, some of which share the same beliefs, it's easy for people to claim they do not limit positive reputation to just those who share the same belief system.

That has been said many times and many ways in this very thread. It's convenient. It's handy. It's ideal if true. But it's not being carried out as said.

It was back in April, I believe. There had been another topic on Adam Dunn's productivity (or lack thereof in the eyes of some people here) with runners in scoring position.

At the time, I had taken a passive approach to the "batting average/ batting average w/RISP" argument versus the sabrmetric argument including stats such as OPS, Runs Created, etc. My contention at the time was that although I believe the new metrics were probably useful, I didn't think anyone could say with 100 percent certainty that one stat was better than another.

Contained within post #90 on this thread, one user says...


If you want rep points for effort rather than contribution, you won't get them unless said effort results in you making an actual point. There isn't a poster on this board who is immune to being wrong. That being said, there isn't a poster on this board who has the right to be right just because he thinks so.

In attempting to use my argument that sometimes other statistics were still useful, I provided statistical evidence that although Austin Kearns' OPS was lower in the RISP situation than Adam Dunn through that time, he would have been considered "clutch" in terms of coming up with more run-scoring hits off his own bat because he had also plated more runs than had Dunn.

I had entered the argument with 16 rep points, I ended the same argument with 16 rep points.

Again, I countered later in the argument with the 2005 statistics of Garrett Atkins for comparing RISP numbers to Dunn and provided ample evidence that he came through with run-scoring hits at a much higher rate than did Dunn.

Once again, despite provided statistic analysis to explain my point, I was stuck at 16 rep points.

I was told by one poster that my statistics were just plain wrong, even though they were of a factual argument and no one recognized the fact I was providing ample statistical arguments with reasonable theories. I was not, as people have claimed happens, given any reputation points for making a reasonable counter argument - even if it disagrees with their beliefs.

Post #90 goes on to say...


But if you want to talk about baseball at an exceptionally high level and if you might be willing to shut up, listen, and learn about that which you don't know or you want to provide information above and beyond the general knowledge level of the forum then this IS the place for you.

That's the real problem. I didn't shut up, listen and admit I was wrong even if I and many others didn't believe I was. In fact, I was told I was 100 percent wrong in this case and because I either didn't A) conform and agree or B) at least give the speech about "how thankful I was to be shown a new way of thinking", I didn't receive any rep points.

My belief in that particular argument, was that some people didn't understand the difference between fact, statistical trends and opinions. For instance, a fact is that 715 is more than 714. It's a fact that Barry Bonds has hit more home runs than Babe Ruth in his major league career. That's a fact.

When comparing two statistics, saying that one statistic is better than another because it correlates 90 percent of the time compared to 85 percent of the time is not a fact - that's a statistical trend because not every time will one stat correlate at a higher rate than the other. Merely saying player A is better than player B is an opinion, because that cannot be statistically proven. It's subjective in nature.

But here's what really disproves the notion rep points are handed out to people of all opinions.

Despite my factual posts of providing statistics that viewed the situation differently (and no rep points being handed down), I continued the argument and unfortunately, after I lost my temper and was verbally attacked in an abusive manner, I countered with a personal attack. I shouldn't have done that, and after the incident I did in fact apologize.

The previous attack my direction did not receive any negative rep points and no one made any mention on the thread of this attack. It's important to note this poster was of high reputation as well. But after my attack, I went from 16 rep points to -65 rep points and had no fewer than seven (7) posts quoting my attack and threatening I was violating board rules and there was no room for my conduct.

Only when I messaged a moderator and pointed out the attack towards me was anything said to the other poster. Ironically enough, in this very same thread, the same has happened.

I have seen a case in this thread where someone was called out by name and been talked down to, another poster responded (admittedly over the line), but while no one had made any mention of the post directed at this poster.... the poster was quoted three times and scolded by others for getting off topic and doing as Boss had asked everyone not to do.

But here's the kicker to my above point.

After Cyclone had respectfully asked me to run some statistics analysis on my own computer to show what he and other posters had been trying to get across, I willingly agreed to open my mind to the experiment.

I took 15 years worth of national league stats and ran correlation tests in Excel to see which stats in that chunk of time best correlated to run production. I was intrigued by the results and quite impressed with the test.

I admitted as much on a new thread I posted, and included my findings. My reputation jumped from -65 to 145 because of the thread.

There is a problem with the fundamental perception I gained on the positive feedback of my post. When I was citing actual statistics to support my argument (which may have been in the minority) against statistics such as OPS in situations like RISP, I continued to be told I was plain wrong, and before I had lost my temper, even my statistical arguments never received any rep whatsoever. But the minute I come back to the board a few days later to provide stats that backed up the philosophy of the presitigious majority on this forum, I was repped heavily.

You tell me that opinion doesn't matter with reputation and I'll tell you the evidence does not support that claim.

I later relayed these issues to board moderators and boss himself, along with my apologies for my posts that did in fact cross the line - provoked or not.

Within days, however, I received messages from no fewer than 10 people on the subject. I am going to share messages that I saved from at least 5 of them where they voiced the same exact frustrations and issues to myself and to board administrators but I will leave out the names included in the message because I'm not trying to call anyone out. However, I'm going to refer to the individuals in these messages with the same name so that I can illustrate how many people have had a problem with the same posters and how they come at others.

Concerned Redszone member #1

Subject: "You Can't Win"

"You definately are not alone. I have had quite a few messages similar to the one I sent since I started posting here, all from argueing with AnonymousPoster#1. Basically I will argue with him now for about 2 posts back and forth now before I just dont respond anymore becuase it just starts to drive me insane at his inability to actually concede that anyone else can ever have a thought contrary to his and maybe be correct. What's worse, the same people stick up for him and nothing is ever said when he attacks us."

Concerned Redszone member #2

Subject: "It's a lost cause"

"I saw the problems you were having in that thread but I wanted you to know I've had the same problems. I got into an argument recently with AnonymousPoster#2, AnonymousPoster#3 and especially AnonymousPoster#1. He kept telling me how I was wrong and refused to listen to the facts and anything I said to the contrary was basically 'strawmen'. I finally retaliated to his cheap shots and I got warned for it, everyone jumped down my throats and nothing was ever said to him."

Concerned Redszone member #3

Subject: "RE: Keep fighting the good fight"

"I don't disagree with things said, I just thing you have to dig deeper than just purely looking at numbers. If baseball was played on paper the Yankees would win every year. But, you are right, they aren't listening to what I've said at all. They never do and when someone tries to explain to the moderators that they gang up on people, no one ever cares. It's the same people doing it and no one listens."

Concerned Redszone member #1

Subject: "RE: You Can't Win"

"There are quite a few of them that have said they had the same problems with the same people, I dont remember anyone off the top of my head, but I have had at least 3 to 5 people let me know that they dislike [B]AnonymousPoster#1[/B} for the way he tries to talk down to people and sometimes will insult them, becuase he thinks he can get away with it. I actually had him cuss at me once in a thread and no one said anything for about 2 pages until I called him an idiot, only to get told I need to watch myself and my language until I had to point out that he had cussed at me earlier. Guess what, no one bothered doing a thing about it. There is a group of people, AnonymousPoster#3, AnonymousPoster#1, AnonymousPoster#4, AnonymousPoster#2, and AnonymousPoster#5 who usually stick together on anything. I just usually tend to stay out of most arguements involving any of those guys, because otherwise you end up argueing with all of them on 18 different points, you'll lose your temper, one or two of them will take a shot at you and you'll be the one to get in trouble for it."

Concerned Redszone member #4

Subject: "hahaha"

"Give it up, it's useless. You can't argue with those guys. They're always right, you're always wrong and unless you suck up to guys like AnonymousPoster#1 and AnonymousPoster#3 with how thankful you are for showing you the way, you won't get anywhere. Have fun with those jerks."

Concerned Redszone member #5

Subject: "hey"

"My name is (removed). I saw your posts and just wanted to say I share your frustration. I've had the same problems but be warned: i tried telling the moderators about it and how a few of them were getting away with things and it fell on deaf ears. I'm not the first one to complain either cuz I know there is a few people to say the same thing to me but oh well. I just wanted to say hello and keep the faith."

These concerned messages do not (and should not) suggest there is a problem with conflicting opinions. On the contrary, the world is made up of people with different views, different outlooks, different philosophies and different ways of living.

Educated and reasonable minds can and have disagreed. Most of life is not black and white, it's the gray area.

The problem here is that there is a consistent opinion from people that have crossed paths with one fundamental group on this forum that they are told there's no "gray area" essentially. The viewpoint and fundamental beliefs are not the problem directly, but when you have an influential person or persons talking down to other posters and refusing to see other arguments, it becomes a real big issue on many levels - especially when the same group of people dictate a reputation system that runs the forum and when you have numerous complaints that aren't being dealt with.

So that brings me to my original thesis - I love the fact we're allowing people to voice their concerns, but are you going to listen to every person or just some people? Many people have had the same complaint, but it hasn't been addressed. And if it has, nothing has changed.

And before anyone suggests I'm singling out a group of people - I'm not singling out a certain belief, I'm singling out those who refuse to accept other arguments and who belittle those who disagree. There are some individuals very much doing those things and nary a word said to those individuals.

I agree that respect needs to be earned. But the problem here is, the respect should be judged by ALL people on this board, not just those who agree with them or those who are most popular.

There should be a better system of checks and balances. One that truly people can be judged for their abillity to reason, their ability to provide statistical arguments in all forms, not just one that the majority agrees with and also how they act towards others regardless of how many posts they have.

There are some who have not earned respect, but there are also some who are in position to demand this of other posters when they don't conduct themselves in the same manner.

Let me conclude with another portion of post #90.


The lesson is that if you see the game as an emotional AB-by-AB sprint instead of a marathon and don't have the ability to look past what's right in front of you, that may not be the best plan. If you harbor resentment against a certain type of player or game without factual basis, this may not be the best forum for you. If your plan is to attack posters rather than concepts, this isn't the place you should be. If your M.O. is to emotionally escalate a debate, there are folks here who are better at that game than you. If you feel you have a right to have an opinion but can't handle a challenge to it, go elsewhere. Please. If you want rep points for effort rather than contribution, you won't get them unless said effort results in you making an actual point. There isn't a poster on this board who is immune to being wrong. That being said, there isn't a poster on this board who has the right to be right just because he thinks so.

I believe every fundamental issue with this board can be found in this post.

No where on this forum should posters be told they need to see baseball in a certain way to be a successful poster. Is baseball a marathon? You bet it is. But this is also a forum where posters want to discuss their emotions and feelings on their favorite team. Some of them don't want to be lectured on those emotions and they don't want told they're wrong for thinking the way they do.

Is it true that others have a right to respond with a different opinion? You bet. But remember that it's just an opinion and they should not be criticized for their way of thinking.

People nor concepts should be attacked. Both can be critiqued, but if your M.O. is to degrade the poster FOR their concepts or opinions, that too is conduct that shouldn't be expected here.

Lastly, no one minds having an opinion challenged. People can tolerate that. But it's the 'how' that bothers them.

People have a problem with contrary opinions being declared as fact. They have a problem with being insulted. They also expect the 'leaders' of the board to follow in line with the same conduct expected of them. If they don't have that peace of mind, they will not trust in the board's foundations.

There are clearly two large groups that divide this board on a controversial issue. There needs to be more middle ground at the top and as a whole.

How would you like to be a Republican and having to earn your respect from a Democrat to earn a seat in the Senate? Or visa versa.

There needs to be more monitoring of the conduct and rep system by those who are in position to give it... whether the person has 250 posts or 20,000 posts.

How would you like to be arrested for DUI by a cop that was also under the influence?

And finally, all opinions within the topics of the Cincinnati Reds both new and old need to be heard - not just those that haven't grown tiresome.

A pro-life or pro-choice demonstrator would be upset to learn his or her protests in front of a government building has been rehashed too many times to be allowed any longer, but just 20 feet away, an anti-gun or pro-right to bear arms demonstrators continue to speak their mind.

I think these are the problems that exist. I'm sorry for being long-winded, but I felt this was the proper time to speak up.

pedro
06-02-2006, 07:21 PM
wow, no offense but I think some of you may spend too much time back channel talking about this stuff.

I also think it was innappropriate to post those messages here, even though you stripped out the names.

savafan
06-02-2006, 07:35 PM
I'd like to go back to having five reps to give per day. Two just doesn't seem like enough.

KronoRed
06-02-2006, 07:40 PM
wow, no offense but I think some of you may spend too much time back channel talking about this stuff.

I also think it was innappropriate to post those messages here, even though you stripped out the names.
Wow, 100% agreed, people here complain about cliques and such, PM bashing of other posters seems like a pretty clear sign of a clique to me.

KronoRed
06-02-2006, 07:40 PM
I'd like to go back to having five reps to give per day. Two just doesn't seem like enough.
I disagree, 2 is more then enough.

savafan
06-02-2006, 07:43 PM
I disagree, 2 is more then enough.

Not when I give 'em out and then I find another great post I'd like to award, but have to wait 24 hours and then 24 hours later I can't find that post again. Maybe that's just me.

Buckaholic
06-02-2006, 08:04 PM
Wow, 100% agreed, people here complain about cliques and such, PM bashing of other posters seems like a pretty clear sign of a clique to me.

It's not about a clique, it's about people trying to voice their concerns and are getting nowhere with them.

If because myself and others are not fond of the way people are treated for disagreeing with the unsilent majority, and that makes us a 'clique', fine. Then I'm a clique.

This thread was asking for people to voice their concerns. Do you want us to pick and choose who gets to voice theirs or should we continue to turn a blind eye to some of the problems?

The ironic thing, Krono, about your response - people get lectured for not taking issues private. Some of those same people took the issues private. They pointed out there were others doing the same thing and getting away with it. No matter how many times someone voices those concerns, it doesn't change.

Some may think it's improper to share these messages publicly. If those people want to speak publicly, they will, and that's exactly why I left their names out of it. No one else knows who they are and it will remain that way unless they request to be heard.

But if we're truly looking out for the best interests of the board, if people really want to find out the problems with the forum and how it can be better... then I believe we should address these issues and not sweep them under the rug and accuse people of being a clique just for raising the concerns to begin with.

remdog
06-02-2006, 08:41 PM
wow, no offense but I think some of you may spend too much time back channel talking about this stuff.

I also think it was innappropriate to post those messages here, even though you stripped out the names.

People here spend a lot of time talking (PM'ing) about a lot of different topics. It's their time, they can talk about anything they want for however long they want. (shrug)

I think the posting of the messages was handled just fine if he had the author's permission to use them under the conditions that he did.

Rem

redsfanmia
06-02-2006, 08:56 PM
People here spend a lot of time talking (PM'ing) about a lot of different topics. It's their time, they can talk about anything they want for however long they want. (shrug)

I think the posting of the messages was handled just fine if he had the author's permission to use them under the conditions that he did.

Rem
I agree whole heartily.

saboforthird
06-02-2006, 09:19 PM
wow, no offense but I think some of you may spend too much time back channel talking about this stuff.

I also think it was innappropriate to post those messages here, even though you stripped out the names.

With all due respect, Pedro, what he did was the PERFECT thing to do in this thread. He didn't mention any names, per Boss-Hog's request, didn't call anyone names (again stuck by the rules of the thread). There are some in this thread that, for one reason or another, refuse to acknowledge that there is a *problem at RedsZone*. It is those posters that the post you are talking about was probably geared toward. Sometimes the truth does hurt. :)

RBA
06-02-2006, 09:32 PM
Maybe we need is a RedsZone "Trading Places" where the Dan Ackroyd moderator changes places with Eddie Murphy RedsLive poster to really see how the other side lives. Sorry, Jamie Lee Curtis is not included in the deal. :eek: :eek: :D :D

KronoRed
06-02-2006, 11:08 PM
Maybe we need is a RedsZone "Trading Places" where the Dan Ackroyd moderator changes places with Eddie Murphy RedsLive poster to really see how the other side lives. Sorry, Jamie Lee Curtis is not included in the deal. :eek: :eek: :D :D
hey..Dan Ackroyd could use the work :evil:

pedro
06-03-2006, 12:09 AM
That all fine, it's just my opinion that due to the fact that Buckaholic gave a list of posters and then proceeded to post some pretty nasty PM's that were obviously (IMO) about some of the posters on that list that it came across as a sneaky way to attack said posters. It's too bad too because I'm not sure that was his intent.

Now, I didn't neg Buckaholic, or send him a nasty PM, or report his post to the mods, I just said what I thought. If some of you don't like it, too bad, I really don't give a crap.

gonelong
06-03-2006, 12:31 AM
I think it's noble that Boss decided to open up this thread and allow people to voice their concerns. I hope that he is sincere wanting to listen to what people have to say.

But if that's the case, I hope that moderators and administrators will listen to everyone, and not just a certain group of this forum.
I think they will do there best. The majority will likely win out as you won't be able to please everyone no matter what your decision is.


There has been a private attempt by many posters here, some have spoken on this thread and many others have not, to voice displeasure in the way the forum has been run. Mainly, it has to do with the rep system, specifically how it is put in the hands of a certain portion of the forum and that portion is getting away with the treatment of other posters that newer or less prestigious posters are not.
I can understand the feeling, as we were all new here once. On the other hand that "certain portion" of the forum has basically helped build the forum into what it is today. They have dedicated time, money, and content to make it so. They are going to be given more leeway than somethat is new to the site, "fair" or not.



Within this thread, a certain list of posters with high rep points was used as an example towards respect and reputation of the forum. That list included...

westofyou
Cyclone792
M2
SteelSD
Caveat Emperor
RFS62

Without getting personal, as that's not my intent here, you will notice that these posters share a basic philisophical agreement about baseball when it comes to one of the absolute most controversial issues on this board - statistics versus baseball strategy and the practical use of. Sure, each of these respected posters have probably had individual disagreements in the past, but when it comes to the very most controversial issues on this board (I use Adam Dunn as an example), they will be seen sticking up for one side of the argument in every thread.
That will be news to RFS62 :laugh:

Personally I think you are selling these guys TERRIBLY short by lumping them all together as simply "stat guys".


It is these threads, the controversial ones, that often create the most rep points negative or positive being handed down. It's also where many of the problems have derived.
Likely true.


So when a core issue is dividing the board and the rep system on said board functions on the opinions and decisions of one half of that divide, it's easy to see how a class society can be created and a popularity contest will follow.
I don't buy this at all. There are many more members here that are "old school" as opposed to "stat-heads". While several of the more prominent posters that post statistics have high rep, they in no way control rep.

4 of my last 15 + reps received are from that list. (one of whom was RFS62 who is by no means a stat-head)

Only 3 of my last 15 reps given have been one of those on that list.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/memberlist.php?&order=DESC&sort=reputation&pp=50

If you follow this link you will see all these guys at the top of the list. What they all have in common is that they post reams of content. What you'll notice is that after the first 10 or so names on the list ... it becomes darn near exclusively the domain of those that won't easily fit into the "stat-head" designation. Page after page after page of them.


That has been said many times and many ways in this very thread. It's convenient. It's handy. It's ideal if true. But it's not being carried out as said.
It is in my case.


There is a problem with the fundamental perception I gained on the positive feedback of my post. When I was citing actual statistics to support my argument (which may have been in the minority) against statistics such as OPS in situations like RISP, I continued to be told I was plain wrong, and before I had lost my temper, even my statistical arguments never received any rep whatsoever. But the minute I come back to the board a few days later to provide stats that backed up the philosophy of the presitigious majority on this forum, I was repped heavily.
You were repped because you figured out what people were telling you.

You went from this:


It's not that I'm ignoring your data, I'm simply telling you, there is no such thing as one stat positively being better than another stat, no questions asked.
to this:


I remain skeptical about the significance against that particular measurement, but I will conclude on the whole that BRA and RC along with OPS are tremendous representations of what a team will do provided they meet their projections. And in that line of thinking, I would much rather have players that as a whole, score well in these measurements.

via the help of "one of those guys"


Buck, not to be harsh, but all your analysis proved was that you don't understand how actual offensive run production occurs. Nobody here is "picking which numbers to choose," but what they are doing is using the best short-hand metrics that correlate to actual run scoring.

Here, do yourself a favor ...

Use that same sample size of 2002-2005 and break out Excel.



You tell me that opinion doesn't matter with reputation and I'll tell you the evidence does not support that claim.
It couldn't be any more clear to me that it does.



Within days, however, I received messages from no fewer than 10 people on the subject. I am going to share messages that I saved from at least 5 of them where they voiced the same exact frustrations and issues to myself and to board administrators but I will leave out the names included in the message because I'm not trying to call anyone out. However, I'm going to refer to the individuals in these messages with the same name so that I can illustrate how many people have had a problem with the same posters and how they come at others.

I have no doubts there are posters here that feel they are getting shafted. IMO its avoidable. You will find that in any situation. I am not saying we should not listen to their concerns and attempt to make this a bette place. I am just saying you can't please everyone.



Lastly, no one minds having an opinion challenged. People can tolerate that. But it's the 'how' that bothers them.
Most new posters here absolutely HATE to have their opinions challenged.



I think these are the problems that exist. I'm sorry for being long-winded, but I felt this was the proper time to speak up.
I don't agree with much of what you have said, but I am glad that you spoke your piece, and respect that. Hang around, gather your rep, and help build the site towards what you think is important.

GL

M2
06-03-2006, 12:35 AM
Private Message means exactly that - private. PMs have no business being re-posted onto the public forum.

FWIW, there's a long, ugly history on this board of people "recruiting." if you will, on the back channels, attempting to create an us vs. them dynamic. Sometimes a "recruit" will forward along that kind of PM, not having thought much of it. Can't say I've ever held a high opinion of the folks who do it.

Though I think a lot of the frustration we're hearing has to do with their relative lack of success in taking that agenda to the public forums. In fact, I think it's a testament to how well the system is working that such things have stayed confined largely to PMs.

Buckaholic
06-03-2006, 12:40 AM
Though I think a lot of the frustration we're hearing has to do with their relative lack of success in taking that agenda to the public forums. In fact, I think it's a testament to how well the system is working that such things have stayed confined largely to PMs.

And thus, that's where there's a large philisophical difference, because many people see the problem as the failure to crack down on a problematic issue that has plagued many people. The fact that people are trying to keep these issues off the board as has been asked and yet they're still not being addressed has people frustrated, hence the private venting.

You are free to have a distaste for those that share the PM's publicly, but there very fact they haven't been answered or dealt with is the very reason that they're being used.

Again, I kept their identities out of this discussion because if they want to go on record, they will. I think that should have sufficed. But since this thread was to ask for concerns and problems with the board, I feel this is the time to use them as they are relavant to the discussion.

M2
06-03-2006, 12:50 AM
And thus, that's where there's a large philisophical difference, because many people see the problem as the failure to crack down on a problematic issue that has plagued many people. The fact that people are trying to keep these issues off the board as has been asked and yet they're still not being addressed has people frustrated, hence the private venting.

You are free to have a distaste for those that share the PM's publicly, but there very fact they haven't been answered or dealt with is the very reason that they're being used.

Again, I kept their identities out of this discussion because if they want to go on record, they will. I think that should have sufficed. But since this thread was to ask for concerns and problems with the board, I feel this is the time to use them as they are relavant to the discussion.

Beyond having a personal distaste for PMs being made public, it's been the long-standing policy on this board that such practice is verboten. Maybe that's being waved for this thread, but I do know it's been viewed dimly over the years.

I have a little more history with the "private venting" than you. Once upon a time I was "recruited" too. If people want to "vent" about how they don't like X, Y and Z in PMs, that's they're prerogative. Just like it's mine to consider that immensely petty, shallow behavior.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no "them" on this board. Clearly the people with whom you're commisserating hold a different view. Personally, I don't want to make the board "safe" for that mindset.

Falls City Beer
06-03-2006, 12:51 AM
Couldn't this "fight for Justice" be put to better use in, say, a real-world cause and not a baseball forum?

Seems that if your mission in coming here is to make a "fairer world for all" and not engage in challenging baseball discussions, then you're probably here in the wrong spirit of things.

Sea Ray
06-03-2006, 12:53 AM
Thanks for summarizing what took me a page-long effort to do. :D There are a lot of folks here who could easily strike newcomers as "not having a life". When discussions turn to "you're not posting facts, therefore your opinion doesn't count", it's no longer a "community".

First of all the reputation system does lead to class warfare. Unfortunate but that's the way it works.

The discussions of "you're not posting facts" comes from the folks who are addicted to stats...such as "don't tell me Adam Dunn is a bad fielder unless you can show me a stat of how many runs his fielding costs the team."

My advice: move on and don't post in that thread anymore.

edabbs44
06-03-2006, 01:03 AM
Buck, I have to say I enjoyed that post. I have encountered many instances you refer to and have pretty much given up dealing in statistic related arguments since many posters here (and elsewhere in the game) seem to be enamored with all of these crazy stats. I am sure that, if you try hard enough, a lot of useless players in the league could be painted in a positive manner using some statistic.

For example, I think I have been one of the biggest voices against Hatteberg on this board throughout the season. I have gotten into long-winded arguments about how he doesn't being much to the table. But time and time again, his OBP has been used in arguments against me like he won 5 consecutive MVP awards the past 5 years. In addition, I have argued that LaRue was given a ridiculous contract given the status of this team and that he needs to take a seat more often or, better yet, traded. I've been told time and time again that he is a slow starter and he has been one of the best catchers in the league the past few years. We just have to wait it out. He's better than anything we have, and numerous different stats were thrown at me to prove their point. And I respect that...to a point.

I am a pretty new poster on this board and most of the arguments against my logic came from ORG members. I have no problem with arguing different points of view. That is one reason why I love this website. But lately I have seen something which intrigued me. When the game threads were moved to ORG and out of Reds Live, I have seen many posts made by other ORG members ripping apart LaRue and Hatteberg. And I have seen no arguments going back to them talking about Hatteberg's OBP or how LaRue is a 2nd half player.

Now there could be 3 reasons for this:
1) Maybe those posters have seen enough of the two players and changed their minds.
2) Maybe those posters give ORG members' opinions more respect than newer posters.
3) Maybe those posters didn't see the anti LaRue and Hatte posts.

I really hope the first option is what is happening, b/c the second one would really suck if that was the logic being used.

I realize that LaRue should get better as his career statistical patterns suggest, but stats are not all knowing and neither are historical norms for players, especially when dealing with catchers entering their 30s and in the steroid era. And BTW, I am in no way linking anyone's names to the steroid controversy in this post. But I think Seattle will be waiting a long time for Beltre to hit 48 HRs again. Sometimes the stats have to be thrown in the garbage and opinions have to be formed through other methods.

Now, did you know that over the last 3 years (2003-2005) there is a right handed member of the bullpen who holds lefties to a .759 OPS over 350 ABs? Not a great statistic, but not an awful statistic either. Or that this same reliever, on no days rest over that same time frame (in 38 games), has a 2.42 ERA? Those are Rick White's stats from the past 3 years.

Buckaholic
06-03-2006, 01:05 AM
What mindset is that, M2?

If you consider that behavior petty, shallow or whatever else, once again, your perogative. But it's our perogative to feel like the menality on this board with some posters also happens to be petty, shallow and unpleasant, and that's why some people have decided to voice their displeasure.


Couldn't this "fight for Justice" be put to better use in, say, a real-world cause and not a baseball forum?

Seems that if your mission in coming here is to make a "fairer world for all" and not engage in challenging baseball discussions, then you're probably here in the wrong spirit of things.

Isn't this question (whether rhetorical or otherwise) basically like the pot calling the kettle black? Here we have a thread of over 400 responses of people voicing concerns and ideas for the forum and because some people may want a better, more comfortable environment they have alterior motives?

Consider maybe the reason there are issues being raised is because they WANT to discuss baseball comfortably and in an environment where they feel they can have a different viewpoint without being criticized and talked down like they don't understand baseball or they are incapable of adapting to a new concept.

Just because these people don't have 20,000 posts don't mean they aren't here for baseball discussion. Just because they're looking for a little more consistency and respect doesn't make them disciples for justice or give any right to question their motives.

This is exactly the problem. The moderators and administrators tell people to take their issues private.

They do so and essentially, to no avail. So they share concerns with other people facing the same problems - and that's "petty and shallow" behavior.

They respond in a thread where administrators ask for input, and now they have alterior motives.

It's proving everything that's being complained about - for speaking out against the way they are treated, they get branded, labeled and criticized.

Funny thing is, there are probably several people that probably aren't speaking out right now for fear of exactly what I'm responding to right now. They know what kind of backlash they would get for it.

This thread was designed to ask people what could be done to change the atmosphere of the board and Boss wanted input. That's what's being given and if people disagree with it, that's more than fine.

Falls City Beer
06-03-2006, 01:06 AM
Now there could be 3 reasons for this:
1) Maybe those posters have seen enough of the two players and changed their minds.
2) Maybe those posters give ORG members' opinions more respect than newer posters.
3) Maybe those posters didn't see the anti LaRue and Hatte posts.


Or maybe people are just "playing nice" for a while and not jumping on people in game threads so that the board doesn't implode.

edabbs44
06-03-2006, 01:07 AM
Or maybe people are just "playing nice" for a while and not jumping on people in game threads so that the board doesn't implode.
Not sure about that, but it could be.

Buckaholic
06-03-2006, 01:09 AM
Here's something interesting,

SteelSD just negative repped me 8 points and said, "if you want to call me out, then you better put my name by those quotes. That's trash behavior from you."

I have not called anyone out by name as requested by Boss. I have been fair, I have not pointed fingers and I have given my rationale in a mild manner.

And Steel responds by giving me a negative reputation. Now THAT is the kind of thing that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

Anyone care to justify this behavior? This is the exact reason the rep system is flawed and this is exactly why some people have created issues on this forum to begin with.

I was not bringing anyone into this discussion and there was no reason for him to sink to that level.



Thread Date Posted By Comment

Let's all take a deep... 06-03-2006 04:57 AM SteelSD You want to call me out, then you'd better put my name by those quotes. Trash behavior from you.

Falls City Beer
06-03-2006, 01:14 AM
Not sure about that, but it could be.

I don't know either. But I spend my time on here thinking about the game, not a whole lot else.

This is my escape, not my work--I'm not a member of any alliance; I've pissed off way more than my fair share of "the elite," as many of you would have it; I don't get invited to the office parties; I'm no one's "buddy"--yet somehow, some way, I have a pretty high rep count. Now why is that? Most of that is because I post here a bunch and I've been here a long time. The remainder of it comes from the fact that I think about the game, learn from others, refine my positions, make idiotic predictions...so it goes. Just be who the hell you are and think about the game. All the other crap will take care of itself.

pedro
06-03-2006, 01:22 AM
Here's something interesting,

SteelSD just negative repped me 8 points and said, "if you want to call me out, then you better put my name by those quotes. That's trash behavior from you."

I have not called anyone out by name as requested by Boss. I have been fair, I have not pointed fingers and I have given my rationale in a mild manner.

And Steel responds by giving me a negative reputation. Now THAT is the kind of thing that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

Anyone care to justify this behavior? This is the exact reason the rep system is flawed and this is exactly why some people have created issues on this forum to begin with.

I was not bringing anyone into this discussion and there was no reason for him to sink to that level.


And I got negged for suggesting that your original post may not have been appropriate. So what? That crap should stay private IMO.

Buckaholic
06-03-2006, 01:27 AM
And I got negged for suggesting that your original post may not have been appropriate. So what? That crap should stay private IMO.

Since this thread has been a lot about repping and the abuses or advantages/disadvantages of the system itself, I would say in this particular case it was quite appropriate. I'm not crazy about the fact you got negged for that, but still that's more to the point of what I'm talking about... it shouldn't be a popularity contest.

This is the one case I decided to expose the negative rep because I want everyone to know exactly why there is an issue and it needs to be dealt with.

The unfortunate thing is, it's not just that type of response in the private realm that gets to people. It's that posts just like that are overlooked on the public forum. Sometimes it's more thinly-veiled, sometimes it's subtle but often it's there.

SteelSD
06-03-2006, 01:28 AM
What mindset is that, M2?

If you consider that behavior petty, shallow or whatever else, once again, your perogative. But it's our perogative to feel like the menality on this board with some posters also happens to be petty, shallow and unpleasant, and that's why some people have decided to voice their displeasure.

You mean like posting PM's and calling out other posters you disagree with?


Isn't this question (whether rhetorical or otherwise) basically like the pot calling the kettle black? Here we have a thread of over 400 responses of people voicing concerns and ideas for the forum and because some people may want a better, more comfortable environment they have alterior motives?

400 responses and still not one entirely valid concern or solution. That's producive.


Consider maybe the reason there are issues being raised is because they WANT to discuss baseball comfortably and in an environment where they feel they can have a different viewpoint without being criticized and talked down like they don't understand baseball or they are incapable of adapting to a new concept.

mlb.com

And, BTW, if you demand respect then you better give it.


Just because these people don't have 20,000 posts don't mean they aren't here for baseball discussion. Just because they're looking for a little more consistency and respect doesn't make them disciples for justice or give any right to question their motives.

Nothing about Redszone is inconsistent and there isn't anyone on the board who doesn't get respect when earned.


This is exactly the problem. The moderators and administrators tell people to take their issues private.

Again, mlb.com.


They do so and essentially, to no avail. So they share concerns with other people facing the same problems - and that's "petty and shallow" behavior.

Yeah, it is because no one on the list you posted has ever engaged in the behavior to which you appear to be familiar.


They respond in a thread where administrators ask for input, and now they have alterior motives.

It's proving everything that's being complained about - for speaking out against the way they are treated, they get branded, labeled and criticized.

Seems to me the only person who's been "branding", "labelling", and "criticizing" has been you.


Funny thing is, there are probably several people that probably aren't speaking out right now for fear of exactly what I'm responding to right now. They know what kind of backlash they would get for it.

If you do what you just did, they should expect a backlash as should you for breaking any number of board rules. It's absolutely inexcusable to post rep post messages or to call posters out. That lesson was learned by myself a long long time ago (and the first half didn't have to be learned because it's obvious). It appears you don't think the rules apply to you. That's false.


This thread was designed to ask people what could be done to change the atmosphere of the board and Boss wanted input. That's what's being given and if people disagree with it, that's more than fine.

You're not suggesting viable alternatives. You're just complaining and pointing fingers. It's pretty clear that this thread isn't for that.

Buckaholic
06-03-2006, 01:36 AM
And pray tell, may I ask, which board rules had been violated?

I didn't call anyone out. I didn't attack anyone. You tell me what forum rules were broken?

In fact, you gave me a negative rep BECAUSE I followed the orders of the forum administrator and didn't call anyone out. What does that say about your own credibility?

And unlike some people, I'm trying to come up with solutions, not just responding with, "the only one doing that is you."

M2
06-03-2006, 01:46 AM
What mindset is that, M2?

I thought I made this clear the first time, but maybe not. It's the notion that AnonymousPosters #1-5 are "them" and something needs to be done about "them."


If you consider that behavior petty, shallow or whatever else, once again, your perogative. But it's our perogative to feel like the menality on this board with some posters also happens to be petty, shallow and unpleasant, and that's why some people have decided to voice their displeasure.

No, they've decided to hold a gripe session behind other people's backs and you've decided that has some sort of place in the public forum. BTW, your use of "our" is speaking volumes to me.


Isn't this question (whether rhetorical or otherwise) basically like the pot calling the kettle black? Here we have a thread of over 400 responses of people voicing concerns and ideas for the forum and because some people may want a better, more comfortable environment they have alterior motives?

I don't have a problem with people individually voicing their concerns on the public forum. Yet, and your PM list underlines this, for many this revolves around trying to wage a campaign against "them."


Consider maybe the reason there are issues being raised is because they WANT to discuss baseball comfortably and in an environment where they feel they can have a different viewpoint without being criticized and talked down like they don't understand baseball or they are incapable of adapting to a new concept.

Consider that Redszone is a massive baseball forum that's been doing just that for six years. Are people going to disagree? You bet. Will those disagreements sometimes get terse? You bet.


Just because these people don't have 20,000 posts don't mean they aren't here for baseball discussion. Just because they're looking for a little more consistency and respect doesn't make them disciples for justice or give any right to question their motives.

The secret to a a large post count, at least in my case, is that you've got to be able to type fast. Meanwhile Cyclone doesn't have a high post count, yet owns one of the highest rep scores on the board. Why? Because Cyclone has made a number of brilliant posts and put together the Redszone HOF threads this winter (which was a fantastic offseason idea). It seems you're the one judging people (negatively) based on post counts and rep scores, not the other way around.


This is exactly the problem. The moderators and administrators tell people to take their issues private.

Because people should take their individual issues private. It has no place on the public board. From experience I can tell you taking it private works out extremely well.


They do so and essentially, to no avail. So they share concerns with other people facing the same problems - and that's "petty and shallow" behavior.

Read what you re-posted again. That's not people sharing their concerns. That's people griping about other people and there's not all that fine a distinction between the two.


It's proving everything that's being complained about - for speaking out against the way they are treated, they get branded, labeled and criticized.

Labeled and branded? You mean like "not having a life?" I've seen a fair amount of labeling and branding here, but it's not coming from the folks you're trying to turn into "them."

I don't doubt that people's takes have been criticized ... and welcome to Redszone. Though I sincerely doubt they're giving any better treatment than they're getting. You mentioned that you had a -65 rep score at one point and that it was one post that earned it for you. Rep can work for or against anyone on this board and I think it's fair to say that you have first-hand experience as to how the rep system can respond to a particularly egregious post. When dozens of people with no common agenda neg something, it sends a clear message people don't like what that poster has written.

I think the community policing works for the most part. The community has been given the tools to call out what it considers inappropriate behavior and, clearly, it has used them.


Funny thing is, there are probably several people that probably aren't speaking out right now for fear of exactly what I'm responding to right now. They know what kind of backlash they would get for it.

Yes, retribution will be swift and severe. Dude, it's a baseball board.

Shaggy Sanchez
06-03-2006, 01:52 AM
Consider maybe the reason there are issues being raised is because they WANT to discuss baseball comfortably and in an environment where they feel they can have a different viewpoint without being criticized and talked down like they don't understand baseball or they are incapable of adapting to a new concept.



mlb.com


Steel, I have always enjoyed reading your posts and feel that you bring a lot to the board but I am surprised by this. If I understand you correctly you are saying that Redszone is not a place to discuss baseball if you have a different viewpoint because you could be criticized and talked down too. I know that some think there isn't a problem here but wouldn't this be the main problem people are complaining about. I don't feel that anyone should be criticized or talked down to for their opinions about baseball. If someone has a different view of things then that is their perogative and I don't think Boss ever intended for people to all have the same ideas on this site and I'm sure he never wanted people to be criticized or talked down to if they did.

M2
06-03-2006, 01:53 AM
Here's something interesting,

SteelSD just negative repped me 8 points

And I'm about to neg you as well for bringing up individual rep votes on the public forum. That sort of thing has no place here. It's done under the covers for a reason.

And if you need to argue with Steel on a more personal level, I suggest you take it the private route because, just speaking for myself, I don't want to read a single word of it.

SteelSD
06-03-2006, 01:54 AM
And pray tell, may I ask, which board rules had been violated?

The first rule of personal rep points is that you do not talk about personal rep points. The second rule of personal rep points is that you do not talk about personal rep points. The third rule of personal rep points is that you don't, in any situation, POST rep point comments. This is clear to anyone who's actually read a thread about rep points.

I don't have carte blance to say or do whatever I like. That is the standard and it is very clear to me. If you fail to meet the standard, then you can expect adversity.


I didn't call anyone out. I didn't attack anyone. You tell me what forum rules were broken?

Other than calling folks out, attacking posters, posting private messages, andf posting rep point messages, you've done nothing wrong.


In fact, you gave me a negative rep BECAUSE I followed the orders of the forum administrator and didn't call anyone out. What does that say about your own credibility?

My credibility is quite fine. First, I've never posted private communications on the board (folks have been banned for that). Secondly, I don't give half a crap about my rep point total. And third, you didn't follow the "orders" of a forum administrator. You turned this thead into your own personal vendetta.


And unlike some people, I'm trying to come up with solutions, not just responding with, "the only one doing that is you."

Your next proposed solution will be your first. Currently all you're doing is complaining about rep points and telling folks that they need to leave you alone regardless of how many unsubstantiated opinions you post.

You have the right to an opinion. You do not have the right to an unopposed opinion. That's not a Redszone thing- that's a life thing. If you care about rep points (and obviously you do) then type good posts that say smart things.

Buckaholic
06-03-2006, 02:06 AM
LOL you never cease to amaze me.

First, I didn't attack anyone. Check your facts man. I didn't name any names in my posts until you repped me. Not a single one. I also didn't share the identities of anyone named in those private posts nor did I say who they were from. In that regard, I was not aware even that was "against forum policy" nor did I know you were not allowed to share "rep points."

Secondly, I could care less about rep points. With all due respect, I've been here over five years now and have 447 posts. How is it then that I care about reputation? That's a really bizarre assertion there. If I cared about posts, if i cared about rep, I would have more than 500 posts. In fact, if I really cared, taking up issues with people like you would not be about how I'd go about getting rep points - instead I'd just suck it up and suck up to you and others and whatever.

I proposed a couple of solutions in my post, which apparently you failed to read or you picked out what you wanted to.

If I wanted to turn this into my own personal vendetta, wouldn't I have just come out and named the people I have a problem with? Really now, I'm trying to eliminate the conduct such as you're showing right now from this board, not make a list and tell everyone "this is who I have a problem with."

And about having an opinion vs. an unopposed opinion...

again you have failed to understand the issue. No one is looking for an opinion that isn't opposed, it's how you oppose that opinion that is the problem. People are sick of being talked down to for their beliefs. If the response to my post isn't living proof of that, there isn't anything that can be done.

I was trying to avoid personal attacks in this thread and voicing concerns at the same time. Then all of the sudden, someone comes out of the woodwork and gives me a negative rep because I didn't name names - as was asked in the first post.

Once again, it's hypocritical that you accuse me of breaking forum rules, but until you repped me, I had not mentioned anyone by name at all. So which is it, did you want me to call you by name as you suggested in your rep, or did you want me to follow forum rules? You're trying to have it both ways.

M2
06-03-2006, 02:10 AM
So much for not wanting to see a word of it. Seriously. TAKE IT PRIVATE!

SteelSD
06-03-2006, 02:23 AM
Steel, I have always enjoyed reading your posts and feel that you bring a lot to the board but I am surprised by this. If I understand you correctly you are saying that Redszone is not a place to discuss baseball if you have a different viewpoint because you could be criticized and talked down too. I know that some think there isn't a problem here but wouldn't this be the main problem people are complaining about. I don't feel that anyone should be criticized or talked down to for their opinions about baseball. If someone has a different view of things then that is their perogative and I don't think Boss ever intended for people to all have the same ideas on this site and I'm sure he never wanted people to be criticized or talked down to if they did.

Shaggy, I think you're right on as far as what Redszone is for. In fact, if someone posts a view that displays solid reasoning (even if it's "subjective" or "observational"), then that person is taken seriously. Of course folks are going to attempt to confirm said observation, but there isn't a person on the board who can't alter their opinion based on valid information.

That being said, Redszone isn't a place where unsupported opinion will work regardless of the derivation. Logically supported opinion will always be valued whether it's statistical in nature or observational in nature. But if it's observational and can be confirmed (as most all observational info can) then it's more valid.

This is a mature, intelligent baseball board. I know that I don't need to tell you that, but that's the fact of the matter. Folks at Redszone like valid information. That doesn't mean "only stats" but it sure includes statistical analysis when relevant. Redszone, for quite some time IMHO, has been short on patience for opinions that can't be logically supported. Again, that doesn't mean "statistically supported" but at some point we reach a flashpoint of fact versus opinion and what I'm seeing a lot of is folks want facts to take a back seat. But that's never going to fly because this is a mature, intelligent baseball board.

The crux of the matter is that you either want to belong and contribute to a mature, intelligent baseball board or you don't. If not, there are plenty of other boards that'll cater to whatever a poster is looking for. And if a poster doesn't see a fit here, then it's up to them to determine if they want to look elsewhere for their message board enjoyment rather than continuning to try to change an established community to fit them. Fact is that no one here has ever been able to make Redszone their own personal board that does nothing but cater to what they want to post. The community won't allow it and rightly so.

Ron Madden
06-03-2006, 03:45 AM
Ummm.....Ron that would be an opinion, would it not? :) The very existence of this thread says that there is a need of repair here. :evil:

Rem

Good call Rem, :)

Yes it is an opinion, it's my opinion.

I know not everyone will agree with me but that's OK. :D

BoydsOfSummer
06-03-2006, 04:51 AM
Cracks me up when guys like Steel and Falls say things like "Dude" and make "doodie" references. Kinna makes me feel like I belong and stuff.

OldRightHander
06-03-2006, 09:31 AM
Not when I give 'em out and then I find another great post I'd like to award, but have to wait 24 hours and then 24 hours later I can't find that post again. Maybe that's just me.

That happens to me all the time. I sometimes will remember the person who made the post but can't find the post, so I will end up giving that person rep on a different post with a note something like, "You said something really good yesterday, so this is for that post." I feel kind of silly doing that.

RFS62
06-03-2006, 09:36 AM
That will be news to RFS62 :laugh:

Personally I think you are selling these guys TERRIBLY short by lumping them all together as simply "stat guys".


GL


Great. 6 years of deep undercover work infiltrating the Evil Stat Cabal of RZ blown out of the water. I had the charges set in the Hal 9000 and was ready to make my move.


After slogging through this little epic I've come to the conclusion that the intentions of many of the folks who are upset are probably valid, in that they're not just troublemakers, but people who want to have their voices heard. But the execution of those good intentions is causing some consternation.

Personally, I doubt that anyone with a high rep count could give a crap if the rep points disappeared tomorrow. I know I feel that way. It's nice to have people you like and respect say nice things about you, but that's not why I'm here.

Like everyone else who has found this site, I'm here for baseball talk. Funny thing happened though, I made a lot of friends and acquaintences along the way. I never expected that. It's been a nice surprise.

It's a baseball board. It's not life and death. I had a hard time accepting that myself, and once that basic truth became clear to me, I stopped worrying about opinions that I don't share.

I take everything I read here with a grain of salt, and my own views on things have modified greatly over the years. None of us knows it all. We're all searching for the truth.

Regarding what seems to be the never ending battle here of "statheads" vs. "traditionalists" (and I hate the negative connotations that both terms have taken on), we're all going to have to come to grips with the fact that this discussion isn't going to go away. There will be a never ending supply of new posters who haven't been exposed to the massive volumes of work done on this subject here, and they'll go through all the wailing and gnashing of teeth that goes along with the turf.

So, we're faced with a problem. Many of the old timers are running short on patience. That's understandable. Many of the newcomers see that as arrogance and condescension. And many times, that's exactly what it is. We have to be fair. There's good and bad behavior on all sides of this issue.

Speaking of post counts, my 10,000th post pretty much summed up my experience here at RedsZone. It took me 10,000 posts and 5 years to finally put into words how I felt and what I believe. Here it is again, in case anyone can get something out of it that helps them in their journey.



Evolution
ev·o·lu·tion n.

A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form

Numbers have a special relationship in baseball. No other sport has such a long history of celebrating the numeric benchmarks that have been passed down from generation to generation. The .300 hitter…. the 100 RBI guy… 30 homers. They were standards with which we all agreed. It was how we defined excellence. They gave us perspective, a way to judge players from one era to another.

But there was always an uneasy feeling among “baseball men” that there was more to player evaluation than simple numbers could ever reflect. Subjective judgment was still more important, in spite of the variety of opinions you could get among talent evaluators. People who spent a lifetime in baseball used statistics as a side dish, but not as the main course. How could a number ever express the beauty of Mazerowski turning a double play? What equation could describe the jump Mays got on the ball off the bat?

We were right when we argued that statistics didn’t tell the whole story. We were right when we gave more weight to scouting methods steeped in subjective judgment.

The reason we were right wasn’t that statistics is an imperfect science. The reason was that the particular statistics that we grew up with were inadequate in expressing what was going on. So, we very often drew the conclusion that stats are incomplete, and we were right.

But baseball, for all it’s tradition and history, does not exist in a static environment. It’s dynamic, ever changing, evolving. And a big part of that evolution in the past 30 years comes from a group of dedicated baseball lovers who were also mathematicians. These were people who, like the “baseball men” of the day, saw the current statistical measures we used were inadequate. But they didn’t stop there, as we did. They looked for better ways to express performance through mathematics.

And they came up with some surprising conclusions. Things that were counterintuitive to the traditional baseball world. Much of this “new thinking” came in the form of complex equations, far beyond the simple formulas used for batting average, ERA, and the counting stats that had been used as benchmarks ever since Harry Chadwick conjured up the first box scores.

The community of mathematicians saw the value immediately. This was their turf, and it wasn’t even that complicated, relative to the kind of things they were doing in other fields. But it was voodoo to most baseball men. An egregious transgression, perpetrated by a bunch of people who “never played the game”.

And as the movement grew, the divide between the “baseball men” and the “statheads” grew ever wider. It became a turf war. And it got ugly.

The “statheads” ridiculed “traditionalists” like it was a dirty word. Moneyball portrayed scouts as tobacco chewing Neanderthals, simpletons, incapable of seeing the big picture. And traditionalists loved to tell stat guys to get their nose out of their spreadsheet and actually watch a game. It was personal, demeaning, and very emotional on both sides.

I was one of the guys who laughed out loud when I first heard some of the conclusions coming out of the sabermetric movement. Before I even scratched the surface of trying to understand what they were doing, I lumped the “new math” of baseball into the same category as the old stats, the ones that I and all of my friends KNEW were incomplete in describing the big picture.

And I was right, from my perspective. But my perspective was skewed. It was incomplete. So, even though I was convinced from all my years of playing and coaching and studying the game I loved that I was right, I wasn’t. In the grand scheme of things, I was wrong.

The craziest thing about all of this is that both sides come from a noble place. Both sides are seeking the truth about baseball. Both sides want the same thing.

I’ve been studying and debating and really agonizing over all this for the past 4 years. And I’ve bought in completely.

And I’m glad that I didn’t come to these conclusions easily. I’m glad that I resisted, kicking and screaming all the way. I’m glad that I demanded proof, and challenged it at every turn.

But to me “buying in” doesn’t mean that I have to abandon what I know and have learned from a lifetime of observation. I’ve said over and over that a “balance” between statistical analysis and subjective judgment from observation is the optimum approach. I now believe this more than ever. There has to be a blend with which the two disciplines can co-exist.

In my opinion, the perfectly evolved baseball mind doesn’t exist on either extreme of the spectrum. It’s somewhere in the middle, depending on your background and experience. You don’t forget how to crawl when you learn how to walk. You just find a better way of moving. I submit that both extremes have to give up old attachments and open our minds, and learn a better way of thinking about the game we love.

I would love to see the fighting stop between the so-called “traditionalists” and the so-called “statheads”. It’s gone on for too long. The personal attacks, the condescension, it’s all so counterproductive. It’s a turf war that serves no useful purpose.

I don’t mean to stop the discussions. I don’t want the challenges to every new and old idea to stop. That’s how we evolve, we test our theories against one another, and we seek the truth. But the personal rancor and invectives are childish and ridiculous, demeaning to all involved.

We all seek the truth about the game we love. What could be more noble?

Reds4Life
06-03-2006, 09:49 AM
Once again, this thread has come full circle. We have posters being called out, discussion of rep points, etc. The discussion itself seems to be complete now, with many ideas simply being rehashed (and turning into fights).

I want to thank those of you that have chosen to follow the rules and discuss this subject in the spirit in which it was intended. You have given the staff some very good ideas for proceeding forward.

Boss-Hog
06-03-2006, 10:34 AM
As Reds4Life said, I really appreciate those who offered their input while still following the rules I laid out in the initial post. It's a shame everyone couldn't do that.