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View Full Version : Its too bad Griffey can do nothing right...



jfleur87
06-01-2006, 12:07 AM
Or at least thats what I've read from many people or heard from many "fans" of the reds. Tonight he had a game where if it wasn't for him we probably wouldn't have won, but people love to point out everything he does wrong. I know this has probably been talked about way to much, but I just wish the kid could catch a break

I can't wait till he goes 0-4 and our pitcher gives up 5 runs in the first 2 innings and yet its still his fault that we lost the game

Geez, give him a break!

reds44
06-01-2006, 12:11 AM
:deadhorse

TOBTTReds
06-01-2006, 12:15 AM
Or at least thats what I've read from many people or heard from many "fans" of the reds. Tonight he had a game where if it wasn't for him we probably wouldn't have won, but people love to point out everything he does wrong. I know this has probably been talked about way to much, but I just wish the kid could catch a break

I can't wait till he goes 0-4 and our pitcher gives up 5 runs in the first 2 innings and yet its still his fault that we lost the game

Geez, give him a break!

I thought it has been pretty quiet about Jr. lately. We've all loved his defensive effort this last week, he's hit a few homers, I aint complaining. I think a good ole chill pill is necessary here. Griffeys averaging 1 rbi per game, that aint bad.

Did anyone start the "Been there, done that" section yet?

dougdirt
06-01-2006, 12:34 AM
Well here is a Griffey stat that is interesting....When Griffey plays and drives in a run, the Reds are 9-6. When Griffey plays and doesnt drive in a run, the Reds are 3-9. I wonder how much the rest of the offense really depends on Griffey to drive in runs sometimes.... It seems a lot lately that if he isnt producing, the team doesnt score.

Nugget
06-01-2006, 12:39 AM
Small sample size but I agree that the Junior bashing has quietened down lately. But I wonder if has more to do with heads up play and just getting the feel for what is expected or required in a situation rather than the guys with less experience just going out to the plate to hit.

reds44
06-01-2006, 12:58 AM
Look at his OBP, it is under .300. That is worse then bad. Without him we lose tonight, but he is having a bad year so far.

jfleur87
06-01-2006, 01:12 AM
I don't think its all too fair to say he is having a bad year just quite yet, he has only played in half of the games, and only now should he be starting to get in a groove. Half as many games as everyone else and is close to the team lead in RBI's is pretty good. But yea thats a pretty bad OBP%, he has 7 walks and 7 homeruns, thats a little odd to me

WVRedsFan
06-01-2006, 01:55 AM
Look at his OBP, it is under .300. That is worse then bad. Without him we lose tonight, but he is having a bad year so far.

Really small sample size.

In fact, when looking at Griffey, it may be a case where OBP is not projecting what he does for this club. Witness this:

In roughly half of this season's games, he has driven in 28 runs, compared to Dunn's and Kearns' 32, Lopez' 19 and Freel's 7. He's been at bat only 110 times while the others mentioned have been up between 144 and 213 times.

If he's having a bad year, then the whole team should have a bad year. If he plays 120 games, which I think he will, his current stastics come out to 28HR's 120 RBI's and those statistics will probably lead the team.

Bad year? Give me a break.

paintmered
06-01-2006, 02:00 AM
Or at least thats what I've read from many people or heard from many "fans" of the reds. Tonight he had a game where if it wasn't for him we probably wouldn't have won, but people love to point out everything he does wrong. I know this has probably been talked about way to much, but I just wish the kid could catch a break

I can't wait till he goes 0-4 and our pitcher gives up 5 runs in the first 2 innings and yet its still his fault that we lost the game

Geez, give him a break!

Friendly suggestion - I don't think this needs its own thread. My reasoning is this: your post is in response to what other posters have said. To me, it makes your post more effective if you post this in reply to their comments. The search tool is the best way to do this.

In the last few weeks, there have been many Griffey threads devoted to his recent performance on the field. On the toolbar at the top of the page, there is a search button. Enter Griffey in there and you are sure to find most of these threads. Feel free to add anything to any of those existing threads, especially if what you have to say is in response to what others have said.

Once again, it's not a huge deal. It will just help to keep the board from getting cluttered. :)

TOBTTReds
06-01-2006, 02:02 AM
I think I'd take a sub .300 obp and 162 rbi's for a player playing a full season!

SteelSD
06-01-2006, 03:10 AM
Really small sample size.

In fact, when looking at Griffey, it may be a case where OBP is not projecting what he does for this club. Witness this:

In roughly half of this season's games, he has driven in 28 runs, compared to Dunn's and Kearns' 32, Lopez' 19 and Freel's 7. He's been at bat only 110 times while the others mentioned have been up between 144 and 213 times.

If he's having a bad year, then the whole team should have a bad year. If he plays 120 games, which I think he will, his current stastics come out to 28HR's 120 RBI's and those statistics will probably lead the team.

Bad year? Give me a break.

Griffey came into tonight worth one less Run offensively than your average Center Fielder. It'd be worse if he had more PA. Defensively, his Zone Rating would rank last in the NL if he had enough Inning to qualify, and by a wide margain. reds44 was right- Griffey's current OBP is a real problem. His defensive range is also a real problem. And just so we're clear, this post is being typed by someone currently wearing a Ken Griffey Junior baseball jersey.

Right now Griffey is gobbling up a lot of PA in that third slot in the lineup without being able to avoid Outs at anything near an acceptable rate. That's a real problem when applied to team Run Scoring and it's one of the reasons the Reds aren't scoring a whole lot of Runs right now. Unless he can start figuring out how to produce a valuable OBP again, he's an ounce better than the 2004 version of Tony Batista. And Tony Batista's 2004 season (32 HR, 110 RBI- 14th in MLB) landed him in Japan.

I have confidence that Griffey can rediscover the plate discipline that made him one of the most feared hitters in baseball, but he's also acquired exactly three Walks this month and only one in the last half of this month. And having a guy in the three slot who isn't getting on base is a real issue when a team is struggling to score Runs. In fact, it's a reason the Reds aren't scoring Runs right now.

NastyBoy
06-01-2006, 06:07 AM
Look at his OBP, it is under .300. That is worse then bad. Without him we lose tonight, but he is having a bad year so far.

I totally agree.. he is having a really bad year... projects out to 35 HR 141 RBIs , which is horrible as most Elites will tell you because his OBA and OPS is worse than Hatte, Aurilla, Kearns and Dunn. The last red player to have 141 RBIs season was the Big Klu in 1954. Club record 149 by George Foster and most Reds fans know how much those guys sucked.

Compared counterparts in the OF, projected Kearns 31 HR 99 RBIs, Dunn 53 HR 99 RBIs. Pretty nice seasons.

I have no way to explain this anomoly, except that his BA RISP .379, compared to Hatte .167, Aurilla .233, Kearns .260. Maybe some of the Elite can better explain than I.

edabbs44
06-01-2006, 09:16 AM
The reason for that perception is that Griffey is making (in relation to the Reds payroll) a ton of money. If you take that out of the equation, he is doing a fine job. I just wish he would be our LF. :)

dabvu2498
06-01-2006, 09:31 AM
I just wish he would be our LF.
I do too. I just wish we had a better option in CF. (Which we don't.)

edabbs44
06-01-2006, 10:04 AM
I do too. I just wish we had a better option in CF. (Which we don't.)
I am more worried about the toll CF takes on his legs.

dabvu2498
06-01-2006, 10:07 AM
I am more worried about the toll CF takes on his legs.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's any solution to that.

Edskin
06-01-2006, 10:24 AM
Junior isn't a " bad" player, but let's face it, he is a shell of his former self and he takes up way too big of a percentage of our payroll to justify his presence.

Defensively, you must compare his to other NL CF'ers-- I'd say he's in the lower half of that list.

Offensively, you must compare him to the other #3 hitters in the NL-- again, I'd put him in the lower half-- possibly right near the bottom.

Now, compared to your average MLB PLAYER, Junior stacks up nicely-- but for where he plays, where he hits, and what he's paid, I'm just not seeing it.

redsfan30
06-01-2006, 10:59 AM
How can you say just because of a low OBP he's having a bad year? He missed a month's worth of action and is still right there among the team leaders in RBI, and probably within another week, he'll be the team leader.

I know he's old. I know he's not half the player he once way. But he's still a pretty darn good player.

He currently sits at a .300 OBP, which yes is cause for concern. But if he continues to hit homers and drive in runs, he will get walked more and more and the OBP will go up as a result of that and team run production will increase because putting runners on base in front of Dunn and Kearns and Encarnacion is a good thing.

Is is OBP low right now? Sure it is. Does that fact justify saying he's having a bad year? In my opinion, no way.

westofyou
06-01-2006, 11:05 AM
How can you say just because of a low OBP he's having a bad year? Because out of the 120 times he's walked to the plate he's walked back to the dugout 84 times?

Juan Gonzales type of year at the dish for Junior, some pop at oppurtune times yes, but making an out 70% of the time will drag his stats (and the team) down after awhile.

Yes.. even despite the RBI's and the the recent catches some Reds "fans" still know something is amiss.

The man had more walks last July then he has had since then... that's 225 ab's or so and less than 18 walks.

Is that too small of a sample size still?

redsfan30
06-01-2006, 11:08 AM
Because out of the 120 times he's walked to the plate he's walked back to the dugout 84 times?

Juan Gonzales type of year at the dish for Junior, some pop at oppurtune times yes, but making an out 70% of the time will drag his stats (and the team) down after awhile.

Yes.. even despite the RBI's and the the recent catches some Reds "fans" still know something is amiss.

The man had more walks last July then he has had since then... that's 225 ab's or so and less than 18 walks.

Is that too small of a sample size still?
Sure it's low right now, I don't think that's up for issue. But if he continues to hit homers and drive runs in, is it too much to think that eventually the walks will follow resuling in less outs recorded?

registerthis
06-01-2006, 11:46 AM
I have confidence that Griffey can rediscover the plate discipline that made him one of the most feared hitters in baseball, but he's also acquired exactly three Walks this month and only one in the last half of this month. And having a guy in the three slot who isn't getting on base is a real issue when a team is struggling to score Runs. In fact, it's a reason the Reds aren't scoring Runs right now.

That nails it right there. The one thing that every player in the lineup--from the leadoff hitter down to the pitcher--must do effectively is to get on base. Some--like Junior and Griffey--need to do that AND knock runs in. others--such as Freel and Lopez--need to get on base and find a way to come around to score. But someone who does not effectively get on base--or, as Steel puts it, not make outs--isn't effectively doing their job, and CERTAINLY shouldn't be batting in the #3 position.

As for Griffey specifically, I think he might be pressing. He may feel a need to try to carry this team, particularly since he missed a month of the season. He's chasing a lot of bad balls right now and swinging at stuff he couldn't hit with an ironing board. Sure, he's hit some HRs, and his RBI's are respectable--but if you come up enought ime with men on base, and swing at enough pitches, you're bound to produce some RBIs. It's the times--or, rather, the frequency--that he DOES make outs that are hurting this team. You simply can't sustain an offense with your #3 hitter getting on base at a clip below .300.

westofyou
06-01-2006, 11:51 AM
I totally agree.. he is having a really bad year... projects out to 35 HR 141 RBIs , which is horrible as most Elites will tell you because his OBA and OPS is worse than Hatte, Aurilla, Kearns and Dunn. The last red player to have 141 RBIs season was the Big Klu in 1954. Club record 149 by George Foster and most Reds fans know how much those guys sucked.

Compared counterparts in the OF, projected Kearns 31 HR 99 RBIs, Dunn 53 HR 99 RBIs. Pretty nice seasons.

I have no way to explain this anomoly, except that his BA RISP .379, compared to Hatte .167, Aurilla .233, Kearns .260. Maybe some of the Elite can better explain than I.
Counting stat projections are pretty iffy.

If Junior hits 120 RBI I'll buy you a Griffey Jersey.

BTW it's little "aside" comments about "Elites" that makes a debate like this more than a back and forth about a players skills. And it really has no place in this debate other than to push buttons.

But hey you knew that.

SteelSD
06-01-2006, 12:04 PM
Sure it's low right now, I don't think that's up for issue. But if he continues to hit homers and drive runs in, is it too much to think that eventually the walks will follow resuling in less outs recorded?

That's the hope, but this is the second year in a row we've seen Griffey's Isolated Discipline (OBP minus BA) numbers decline. Griffey used to be a guy one could count on for 80 to 100-point IsoD numbers. Last year it was 68 points. So far this season it's 45 points.

The good news is that Grif only has 120 PA so there's time for him to correct his IsoD if it's going to correct. The bad news is that his Out frequency has suppressed the club's ability to score Runs while he's been in the lineup.

Johnny Footstool
06-01-2006, 12:07 PM
I totally agree.. he is having a really bad year... projects out to 35 HR 141 RBIs , which is horrible as most Elites will tell you because his OBA and OPS is worse than Hatte, Aurilla, Kearns and Dunn. The last red player to have 141 RBIs season was the Big Klu in 1954. Club record 149 by George Foster and most Reds fans know how much those guys sucked.

Compared counterparts in the OF, projected Kearns 31 HR 99 RBIs, Dunn 53 HR 99 RBIs. Pretty nice seasons.

I have no way to explain this anomoly, except that his BA RISP .379, compared to Hatte .167, Aurilla .233, Kearns .260. Maybe some of the Elite can better explain than I.

If his OBP stays where it is, those projections of 35 HR and 141 RBIs will be pipe dreams, because Junior simply cannot sustain them while making outs at his current rate.


Sure it's low right now, I don't think that's up for issue. But if he continues to hit homers and drive runs in, is it too much to think that eventually the walks will follow resuling in less outs recorded?

You've got it kind of switched around. When Griffey's plate discipline comes around and he starts laying off bad pitches, then he'll start making more quality contact, resulting in more non-outs (including HRs, 2Bs, and Walks). Walks are a by-product of good plate discipline.

osuceltic
06-01-2006, 12:32 PM
I come down in the middle. There is no denying he's having a sub-par year. But he is having a timely year -- call it clutch if you want. He's not getting on base as much as you'd like, but he's doing some damage in some situations when the Reds really need it. His defense? Bad.

Junior is having a season at the opposite end of the spectrum from Dunn. Adam's OPS is good, he's getting on base, hitting home runs ... but he has been terrible with runners on base and his impact just doesn't seem to match his numbers. With Junior, his impact dwarfs his numbers.

Will all that even out for both players? Probably a little, but who knows? That's why they play the games.

westofyou
06-01-2006, 12:39 PM
Adam's OPS is good, he's getting on base, hitting home runs ... but he has been terrible with runners on base and his impact just doesn't seem to match his numbers.38 runs scored leads the team and is 27 more than Griffey (in 100 more trips to the plate)

Dunn should be batting in front of Griffey based on that stat and what you mentioned above.

KoryMac5
06-01-2006, 12:41 PM
Once JR starts rolling I think you will see his numbers start to rise, that all is tied into his health. He spent a good part of the early season on the DL this after being locked in at the WBC. Give him another couple of weeks and I think he will be tearing the cover off the ball. He has over his career averaged an OBP of .377 so I think this number will gradually increase as his at bats continue to accumulate and the Reds offense gets back into gear.

osuceltic
06-01-2006, 12:43 PM
Dunn should be batting in front of Griffey based on that stat and what you mentioned above.
Absolutely.

dabvu2498
06-01-2006, 12:43 PM
Dunn should be batting in front of Griffey based on that stat and what you mentioned above.
This is the truest statement of the past few weeks that I've read.

I do not understand why this has not happened yet. Is there any rational explanation???

redsfan30
06-01-2006, 12:48 PM
Steel,

Is IsoD a glorified name for walks, or does it also take into account reaching on errors, HBP, ect.?

dabvu2498
06-01-2006, 12:51 PM
Steel,

Is IsoD a glorified name for walks, or does it also take into account reaching on errors, HBP, ect.?
IsoD accounts for HBP but not reaching on errors.

registerthis
06-01-2006, 12:56 PM
38 runs scored leads the team and is 27 more than Griffey (in 100 more trips to the plate)

Thus, the importance of getting on base.

SteelSD
06-01-2006, 01:04 PM
Steel,

Is IsoD a glorified name for walks, or does it also take into account reaching on errors, HBP, ect.?

dabvu got it right. Basically, IsoD allows us to isolate how much of a player's OBP is derived from non-Hit events. The best plate discipline guys out there have high Isolated Discipline numbers. MLB average IsoD tends to be right around 65 to 70 points. If you're lower than that, it's most likely a player issue rather than a "pitcher respect" issue.

smith288
06-01-2006, 01:34 PM
I believe Griffey came back precisely when teams adjusted to the "Pitch strikes" theory regarding this teams tendencies of working counts. Hence, less walks.

I think he knows the new tactic of pitching strikes to the Reds so he is doing alot of first or second pitch swinging.

Just my theory though. 3 walks in May? blech.

KoryMac5
06-01-2006, 01:43 PM
Dunn has hit 8hr and 16rbi's with a 209ba hitting in the three spot while in the 4 spot he has 4hr and 10rbi's with a 250ba. At bats are almost the same for either spot. He does get on base more in the four spot OBP is .424 for the four vs. .312 for the three.

Griffey is also batting .379 with runners in scoring position. I would flipflop the two of them in the order.

redsfan30
06-01-2006, 01:58 PM
Dabvu and Steel,

Thanks! That's interesting stuff.

jfleur87
06-03-2006, 10:51 PM
soo do we not win the game tonight if ryan freel isn't in for griffey in the 9th?

redsfan30
06-03-2006, 10:54 PM
soo do we not win the game tonight if ryan freel isn't in for griffey in the 9th?
Doesn't matter....he was, so we did.

Col_ IN Reds fan
06-03-2006, 11:49 PM
Look I said a couple of weeks ago Griffey would probably be hurt by now , again. I am glad he is not. I said he was finished as a player. I hope I am wrong. For me he is easy to root for. Some people just wear out quicker than others. Take out the performance enhancing drugs and allegations and Griffey is player of the decade for the 90's hands down. Does he deserve to win or even be in a Wolrd Series? Who am I to say. I wasn't and managed ok.
I would like to see it and as a Red. Maybe this is the year. Maybe Pujols and Carpenter will be out an extended period. Maybe the injury to Griffey was a fluke and he will tear it up(the ball , not the hammy) in the second half.
We all know this offense is good. Just find some bull pen help.

fielder's choice
06-03-2006, 11:54 PM
Griffey would get some better pitches to hit if the worst hitter in the lineup wasn't behind him everynight. :bang:

kyred14
06-04-2006, 12:16 AM
Griffey would get some better pitches to hit if the worst hitter in the lineup wasn't behind him everynight. :bang:

Unfortunately, Jerry Narron is the only person in world who can't figure out Rich Aurilia has no business hitting cleanup. I would imagine the pitcher loves seeing that guy between the two best players on the team.

On the Griffey front, not only does having 3 walks since coming off the DL concern you, he's also been swinging at a ridiculous number of pitches well out of the zone. At the rate he is going, he going to have to hit .330 to be a productive player.