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Jim Fazio
06-03-2006, 09:23 PM
How many of you agree the Reds should trade Larue and go with Ross as the everyday catcher with Valentine the backup. Ross is a good contact hitter, is hitting for avg which Larue is not and is a decent catcher. Larue is a rally killer and almost an automatic out. I'm sure the Reds can get something for Larue because he has a good arm.

redsfan4445
06-03-2006, 10:07 PM
honestly i have been saying this for 2 weeks.. Ross should be our starter and get rid of LaRue

Highlifeman21
06-03-2006, 10:09 PM
Is this the topic du jour to beat to death?

Congrats Adam Dunn, the trade Jason LaRue faithful have given you a day off.

Newman4
06-03-2006, 10:12 PM
Is this the topic du jour to beat to death?

Congrats Adam Dunn, the trade Jason LaRue faithful have given you a day off.

No it's important, there's a difference. Anyway, Larue has been pretty much given a free pass based on his past numbers. But, my question is 'when's it time to cut your losses and trade him'? He's 0 for his last 25 according to the Reds pregame.

Redhook
06-03-2006, 10:13 PM
Personally, I would like to trade LaRue just to get rid of his salary. Right now, we won't get squat for him in players. Maybe a single A player. But, unloading his salary would give us more cash to work with around the trading deadline. There are about 4,000,000 reasons why he still plays, but I imagine that he's on a pretty short leash right now.

edabbs44
06-03-2006, 10:13 PM
If we could get anything of any value for LaRue, I would do it in a heartbeat. Way too much $ for this guy. Been saying it for weeks.

guttle11
06-03-2006, 10:16 PM
If you can get something good for him, why not? I see no untouchables in the Reds organization. Ross seems to be a good pitch caller and defensive catcher. He's passable at the plate, with some pop, and Valentin is a very good backup catcher.

Sure, trade Larue. I'm not sure how big the market for him would be, though.

saboforthird
06-03-2006, 10:16 PM
The worst part about is that Larue isn't helping himself up there. Every AB he does the same thing. Stand there, take two strikes and go golfing on the third pitch. It seems that way. Who knows Jason might be one of those players that don't fare too well when there is competition for the position he plays. Anyway, I'm a true fan of Ross now.

saboforthird
06-03-2006, 10:18 PM
Just to clarify my position, I tend to think in the abstract about these players. At some point you have to perform, and Larue's recent history don't indicate that is likely to occur.

Marc D
06-03-2006, 10:20 PM
I think Kriv is smart enough to have been trying to trade LaRue for some time now. I fear there is no real market and thats probably due to his contract.

Wheelhouse
06-03-2006, 10:21 PM
Is this the topic du jour to beat to death?

Congrats Adam Dunn, the trade Jason LaRue faithful have given you a day off.

Thread announced what it was. You did not have to read it.

Fullboat
06-03-2006, 10:24 PM
The worst part about is that Larue isn't helping himself up there. Every AB he does the same thing. Stand there, take two strikes and go golfing on the third pitch. It seems that way. Who knows Jason might be one of those players that don't fare too well when there is competition for the position he plays. Anyway, I'm a true fan of Ross now.

Its more of an upper cut swing that drives a grounder to 3B or SS

saboforthird
06-03-2006, 10:37 PM
Multiple games
3-7 .429 CARDINALS (.618)
4-9 .444 PIRATES (.364)
2-9 .222 BREWERS (.473)
2-10 .200 CUBS (.407)
1-6 .167 DIAMONDBACKS (.593)
-----------------------------
13-41 .317 (134-139 .491)

Single games/pinch-hits
1-1 1.000 ASTROS (.491)
1-2 .500 TIGERS (.655)
1-3 .333 MARLINS (.346)
1-4 .250 NATIONALS (.418)
--------------------
4-10 .400 (104-113 .479)

Against division
1-1 1.000 ASTROS (.491)
3-7 .429 CARDINALS (.618)
4-9 .444 PIRATES (.364)
2-9 .222 BREWERS (.473)
2-10 .200 CUBS (.407)
----------------------
12-36 .333 (129-145 .471)


This guy just performs, and without looking at the numbers for Larue and Valentin, he's the guy you want to run with to make a playoff push in the NL Central. Can't go wrong if your star pitcher (Arroyo) makes Ross his "personal catcher". :)

Edit: Any thoughts on this? I prefer Ross, then Valentin, then Larue. Larue must feel like Casey right about now.

Edit 2: Mods, please delete my thread about Ross, my post is more appropriate here.

KronoRed
06-03-2006, 10:38 PM
If Larue could be traded he would have been.

DFA'ing is not an option.

Redsfanao
06-04-2006, 12:02 AM
You can't trade LaRue before the July 2nd giveaway. -Jason LaRue John Deere Hat Day- The fans will be knocking down the doors to get this one. Take a look: http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/cin/images/schedule/2006/ph_larue_hat.jpg

captainmorgan07
06-04-2006, 12:18 AM
ross handles teh staff better and his raking the ball lately

jnwohio
06-04-2006, 12:41 AM
Who knows Jason might be one of those players that don't fare too well when there is competition for the position he plays.

He seemed to thrive on the situation he was in the 2nd half of last year; and I thought that seemed pretty much an open competition for the most PT. However there were only 2 of them then; having the 3rd man and figuring one is going to be moved eventually could make a difference.

In general though, I would think nobody on a major league roster would be there if they couldn't compete well becasue competing for one of an always dwindling number of spots is what they do from the first day they sign a pro contract (and actually even before).

Proabably what is different for LaRue now is that in the past, he was always pretty much the fair haired boy at his position in the Reds organization. From the time LaRue came up to the Reds until the 2nd half of last season, only Corky Miller and Dane Sardinha ever got any notice and neither of them could hit even as much as LaRue. Now there are not one but two other guys right on the MLB roster that mgmnt seems inclined to favor over him.

I'll bet about now he is thanking his agents and the lucky stars that DanO handed out that $9 million guarenteed deal to him.

billy117
06-04-2006, 01:43 AM
Who in the Major Leagues (or the world) would want a catcher hitting .173 making 3.9 mil.? Unless we're giving away good players just to get a team to take LaRue's salary I don't see a trade involving LaRue happening.

pedro
06-04-2006, 03:25 AM
Larue isn't playing too well right now and I'd be happy if the Reds were able to trade him for pitching but honestly as good as David Ross has played, and he has played well, I really think a lot of folks are setting themselves up for a fall if they think he's going to perform anywhere close to this level offensively over a
full season. Lots of guys can look good for 53 ab's.

saboforthird
06-04-2006, 03:53 AM
He seemed to thrive on the situation he was in the 2nd half of last year; and I thought that seemed pretty much an open competition for the most PT. However there were only 2 of them then; having the 3rd man and figuring one is going to be moved eventually could make a difference.

In general though, I would think nobody on a major league roster would be there if they couldn't compete well becasue competing for one of an always dwindling number of spots is what they do from the first day they sign a pro contract (and actually even before).

Proabably what is different for LaRue now is that in the past, he was always pretty much the fair haired boy at his position in the Reds organization. From the time LaRue came up to the Reds until the 2nd half of last season, only Corky Miller and Dane Sardinha ever got any notice and neither of them could hit even as much as LaRue. Now there are not one but two other guys right on the MLB roster that mgmnt seems inclined to favor over him.

I'll bet about now he is thanking his agents and the lucky stars that DanO handed out that $9 million guarenteed deal to him.

I think you agreed with me, and I don't think you intended to. ;) Nobody said that professional baseball players can't compete, or that they don't like to compete. What I said was that Larue might not be faring well with the competition. I *love* competition, in general. That doesn't make me a person that performs well under pressure, though. :D

saboforthird
06-04-2006, 03:59 AM
Larue isn't playing too well right now and I'd be happy if the Reds were able to trade him for pitching but honestly as good as David Ross has played, and he has played well, I really think a lot of folks are setting themselves up for a fall if they think he's going to perform anywhere close to this level offensively over a
full season. Lots of guys can look good for 53 ab's.

It's all about perspective, Pedro. Some would say 53AB's is too small a sample size. Others would say the same thing about 600AB's, claiming that it's only been one season. Whatever one's agenda is, there can always be found a magic "sample size" figure to go with it. :laugh:

Jpup
06-04-2006, 05:10 AM
I'll take Jason Larue over David Ross everyday of the week and twice on Tuesdays. He's had a rough start, big deal, he isn't the problem. For his production last year, he was well worth the contract. He may have came back from his injury too soon as well. The Yankees would love to have him right now and I'm sure they are not alone.

redsfanmia
06-04-2006, 07:07 AM
I'll take Jason Larue over David Ross everyday of the week and twice on Tuesdays. He's had a rough start, big deal, he isn't the problem. For his production last year, he was well worth the contract. He may have came back from his injury too soon as well. The Yankees would love to have him right now and I'm sure they are not alone.

I am not so sure about this. Ross is better defensively and his offense isnt much below what LaRue could put up. LaRue is 32 and is clearly on the down turn.

Newman4
06-04-2006, 08:17 AM
I'll take Jason Larue over David Ross everyday of the week and twice on Tuesdays. He's had a rough start, big deal, he isn't the problem. For his production last year, he was well worth the contract. He may have came back from his injury too soon as well. The Yankees would love to have him right now and I'm sure they are not alone.

Again, what is the cut off here? I have heard the argument for him being a "slow starter" and the like. When does his current performance outweigh his career numbers?

Newman4
06-04-2006, 08:26 AM
You can't trade LaRue before the July 2nd giveaway. -Jason LaRue John Deere Hat Day- The fans will be knocking down the doors to get this one. Take a look: http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/cin/images/schedule/2006/ph_larue_hat.jpg

That's what I'm talking about! I'll be right there with you for hat day. I could care less if it has Larue's name on it though.

Ltlabner
06-04-2006, 08:30 AM
I am not so sure about this. Ross is better defensively and his offense isnt much below what LaRue could put up. LaRue is 32 and is clearly on the down turn.

I'm pretty hot on Ross right now too, however, the above is not a true statement. As of last week, with the exception of pass balls, lifetime LaRue has a better FPCT (.990), CS% (.395) and lower errors as a percentage of games played (6.3%) than Ross.

Offensivley, lifetime, (again as of last week) LaRue has a better lifetime BA and OBP. As much as LaRue strikes out, as of last week, Ross struck out 31% of the time, compared to LaRue's 29%. Thoese numbers prob changed slightly in the last week, but the point is they both strike out alot. Javi V struck out 18% of the time as a comparison.

I really like Ross also, but lets be accurate in our assessments before making any radical changes behind the plate.

MaineRed
06-04-2006, 08:54 AM
He seemed to thrive on the situation he was in the 2nd half of last year; and I thought that seemed pretty much an open competition for the most PT. However there were only 2 of them then; having the 3rd man and figuring one is going to be moved eventually could make a difference.

In general though, I would think nobody on a major league roster would be there if they couldn't compete well becasue competing for one of an always dwindling number of spots is what they do from the first day they sign a pro contract (and actually even before).

Proabably what is different for LaRue now is that in the past, he was always pretty much the fair haired boy at his position in the Reds organization. From the time LaRue came up to the Reds until the 2nd half of last season, only Corky Miller and Dane Sardinha ever got any notice and neither of them could hit even as much as LaRue. Now there are not one but two other guys right on the MLB roster that mgmnt seems inclined to favor over him.

I'll bet about now he is thanking his agents and the lucky stars that DanO handed out that $9 million guarenteed deal to him.

The competetion might force him to press some but Valentin never plays. It seems (without looking it up) that Larue is the catcher, Ross is Arroyo's catcher and Javier is saved for late game PH situations. Last year Larue seemed to be getting more heat from Javy than he is this year from Javy AND Ross.

Jason has earned some patience from the fans in Cincy. He has been a dependable, solid catcher for the last 7 years in the Queen City and he has never been in a lick of trouble. I'm not saying he is immune from critism but comments like, "TRADE LARUE," are unfair. What happens if they do trade Larue and Ross gets hurt? Do the Reds have any chance in the Central with Javy Valentin as their lead catcher? The guy can hit, yes but is he an everyday defensive catcher?

If the Reds unload Larue and weaken the catching corps I hope there is an upgrade somewhere besides the pocket of ownership. If your going to make such a trade with the intent on adding 4-5 million in salary as a result in another move, fine, but trading Larue just because he is struggling so far doesn't make a lot of sense to me, not when it is the defense and the handling of the pitching staff that we are after anyways. .270 would be better than .170 but the Reds were horrible with .270 and 14 dingers from Larue and now he is hitting below .200 with limited production and the Reds are 3 games out of first in early June. Get rid of Larue, play Javy more and probably the offense will get better production but the D will take a hit and Murphy's law says a hole will open somewhere else. Phillips will go into a funk and lose .50 points on his average. Edwin will forget what an extra base hit looks like. The Reds are never going to have 8 guys raking at the same time. Of course that is what we want but the Reds D is already the worst in baseball. I'm not sure if trading Larue because he isn't hitting is the best idea. On the Reds, is a light hitting, field general backstop really such a bad thing?

Newman4
06-04-2006, 09:47 AM
Phillips will go into a funk and lose .50 points on his average. Edwin will forget what an extra base hit looks like.

I don't see the connection between Phillips' and Edwin's offensive production and trading Larue. Also, I think Ltlabner put the defensive stats up on the other thread for comparison.

Krusty
06-04-2006, 10:14 AM
What is the team's ERA with Ross catching compared to LaRue? That is the tale of the tape.

RedlegJake
06-04-2006, 10:20 AM
I think you CAN trade LaRue for a low level prospect, a pretty good one, too. His current numbers aren't a reflection of his historical trend and reflect lack of playing time as much as anything. He still has a terrific arm, plays hard and while I don;t think you could get a solid ML player at this point you could get a decent prospect a couple years away. I'd do that before trading Javy because losing the contract dollars is more important than the return for either at this point - plus I like the team better with Ross-Javy than I do with Ross-LaRue. Sometimes it's not just trade return but budget. This is one time I'd favor the bottom line over the return to be had.

redsfanmia
06-04-2006, 10:25 AM
I'm pretty hot on Ross right now too, however, the above is not a true statement. As of last week, with the exception of pass balls, lifetime LaRue has a better FPCT (.990), CS% (.395) and lower errors as a percentage of games played (6.3%) than Ross.

Offensivley, lifetime, (again as of last week) LaRue has a better lifetime BA and OBP. As much as LaRue strikes out, as of last week, Ross struck out 31% of the time, compared to LaRue's 29%. Thoese numbers prob changed slightly in the last week, but the point is they both strike out alot. Javi V struck out 18% of the time as a comparison.

I really like Ross also, but lets be accurate in our assessments before making any radical changes behind the plate.


LaRue is 32 and is clearly not the player he was. Ross blocks balls better and is a better receiver imo. Im not basing this on stats Im basing it on what im seeing this season.

Joseph
06-04-2006, 10:40 AM
Folks, didn't David Ross play for [or at least was property of] 3 teams last season? Don't you think there is a reason for that? [no popularity isn't that reason]

Just like his small sample size shows Ross is hitting well, LaRue is only 80 ABs in due to injury and the 3 headed monster. Both sizes are too small to declare we should get rid of a proven commodity for a journeyman.

Making David Ross the starter now and dealing the incumbent is like dealing Coffey and making Yan the closer based on their most recent appearances.

The perception is deceptive, don't get fooled by it.

redsfanmia
06-04-2006, 10:53 AM
[QUOTE=Joseph]Folks, didn't David Ross play for [or at least was property of] 3 teams last season? Don't you think there is a reason for that? [no popularity isn't that reason]

This is true but sometimes its a matter of guys getting into the right situation and the right team. Maybe thats whats happening with Ross just like it seems to be happening with Phillips.

Joseph
06-04-2006, 10:59 AM
Thats very possible, and believe me I hope thats the case. I just don't want to put all of our eggs in one basket and deal LaRue for a case of beer like some are advocating and then find out that Ross is a .210 hitter when he doesn't get 4 days rest between every appearance.

reds1869
06-04-2006, 11:07 AM
What is the team's ERA with Ross catching compared to LaRue? That is the tale of the tape.

Of course Bronson Arroyo has absolutely nothing to do with that, right? ;) This is not the only reason to keep him over LaRue; I could call a quality game too, you know, but I wouldn't even make contact against big league pitchers. That being said, if Arroyo loves him we should keep him even if he starts batting .010 and grounding into double plays on a regular basis. We haven't had a pitcher working like Bronson in a very long time, and Ross is a big part of that equation. Whatever keeps our ace happy is fine with me.

westofyou
06-04-2006, 11:07 AM
Thats very possible, and believe me I hope thats the case. I just don't want to put all of our eggs in one basket and deal LaRue for a case of beer like some are advocating and then find out that Ross is a .210 hitter when he doesn't get 4 days rest between every appearance.
Wait... you have reservations about handing the starting job to a 29 year old, catcher on his 4th organization in 2 years with less than 500 MLB ab's?

Joseph
06-04-2006, 11:30 AM
Wait... you have reservations about handing the starting job to a 29 year old, catcher on his 4th organization in 2 years with less than 500 MLB ab's?

I know, call me crazy.

pedro
06-04-2006, 11:39 AM
What is the team's ERA with Ross catching compared to LaRue? That is the tale of the tape.

Not really. They're largely catching different picthers.

DannyB
06-04-2006, 11:46 AM
If a catcher has to be moved I hope it isnt Larue.Last year was his best year?He did it with a broken hand.

KittyDuran
06-04-2006, 11:47 AM
You can't trade LaRue before the July 2nd giveaway. -Jason LaRue John Deere Hat Day- The fans will be knocking down the doors to get this one. Take a look: http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/cin/images/schedule/2006/ph_larue_hat.jpgI was thinking the same... pretty cool hat (and I'll be there to get). So the trade has to wait until after 7/2 unless the Reds haven't made the order... ;)

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/cin/images/schedule/2006/ph_larue_hat.jpg

MaineRed
06-04-2006, 11:50 AM
I don't see the connection between Phillips' and Edwin's offensive production and trading Larue.

Your right, there is none. My point was that everyone is not going to hit at a rate that pleases the average fan all at the same time. I wasn't stating fact, just the way I see it. Just like when Griff was out and guys like Phillips and Edwin were ripping it up. Then Griff comes back and those guys come back to Earth some. In April Hammond stunk but then he turned it around. But at the same time someone else fell off.

The answer to a guy struggling doesn't have to be or isn't always, just trade him. We can throw Javy in there and get some more pop from the C spot but history seems to point to, "trade Brandon Phillips" cries a month down the road.

Matt700wlw
06-04-2006, 11:54 AM
Who wants him?

reds44
06-04-2006, 12:29 PM
Who wants him?
Nobody. He needs to start hitting before we can trade him.

saboforthird
06-04-2006, 01:27 PM
The competetion might force him to press some but Valentin never plays. It seems (without looking it up) that Larue is the catcher, Ross is Arroyo's catcher and Javier is saved for late game PH situations. Last year Larue seemed to be getting more heat from Javy than he is this year from Javy AND Ross.

Jason has earned some patience from the fans in Cincy. He has been a dependable, solid catcher for the last 7 years in the Queen City and he has never been in a lick of trouble. I'm not saying he is immune from critism but comments like, "TRADE LARUE," are unfair. What happens if they do trade Larue and Ross gets hurt? Do the Reds have any chance in the Central with Javy Valentin as their lead catcher? The guy can hit, yes but is he an everyday defensive catcher?

If the Reds unload Larue and weaken the catching corps I hope there is an upgrade somewhere besides the pocket of ownership. If your going to make such a trade with the intent on adding 4-5 million in salary as a result in another move, fine, but trading Larue just because he is struggling so far doesn't make a lot of sense to me, not when it is the defense and the handling of the pitching staff that we are after anyways. .270 would be better than .170 but the Reds were horrible with .270 and 14 dingers from Larue and now he is hitting below .200 with limited production and the Reds are 3 games out of first in early June. Get rid of Larue, play Javy more and probably the offense will get better production but the D will take a hit and Murphy's law says a hole will open somewhere else. Phillips will go into a funk and lose .50 points on his average. Edwin will forget what an extra base hit looks like. The Reds are never going to have 8 guys raking at the same time. Of course that is what we want but the Reds D is already the worst in baseball. I'm not sure if trading Larue because he isn't hitting is the best idea. On the Reds, is a light hitting, field general backstop really such a bad thing?

So, it's okay for Reds managment to say "trade Larue" (they probably have said that), but not RZ posters? What's so "unfair" about it? It's business, pal. The Reds need to cut their losses. I'd say with the production that Larue has given this year, even if he IS a slow starter, is a real loss considering his salary.

Yes, I agree with you that Larue isn't the worst of the defensive players on this club, but he sees a very small percentage of opportunities to handle the ball in comparison to the rest of the defense.

Again, it's about perspective. What one guy considers a large enough sample size, in terms of plate appearance, another guy will not. You can (edit: not) please everyone. I'd say the majority of posters here agree, though, that Larue's time has passed.

Call it aging, "slow starts", newfound competition at the C spot. The fact is that a $4,000,000 salary + worst overall performance amongst the three catchers on the roster, equals "something has to be done with Larue".

pedro
06-04-2006, 01:30 PM
So, it's okay for Reds managment to say "trade Larue" (they probably have said that), but not RZ posters? What's so "unfair" about it? It's business, pal. The Reds need to cut their losses. I'd say with the production that Larue has given this year, even if he IS a slow starter, is a real loss considering his salary. Yes, I agree with you that Larue isn't the worst of the defensive players on this club, but he sees a very small percentage of opportunities to handle the ball in comparison to the rest of the defense. Again, it's about perspective. What one guy considers a large enough sample size, in terms of plate appearance, another guy will not. You can please everyone. I'd say the majority of posters here agree, though, that Larue's time has passed. Call it aging, "slow starts", newfound competition at the C spot. The fact is that a $4,000,000 salary + worst overall performance amongst the three catchers on the roster, equals "something has to be done with Larue".

The catcher doesn't have as many chances to handle the ball defensively as the rest of the defense? Ummm... OK.

saboforthird
06-04-2006, 01:42 PM
The catcher doesn't have as many chances to handle the ball defensively as the rest of the defense? Ummm... OK.

You're taking my post out of context. I can see why, though, to your credit. What I meant to say is that with balls put in play, the catcher spot doesn't factor as much. How's Larue doing in the passed balls category? ;)

Matt700wlw
06-04-2006, 01:45 PM
Nobody. He needs to start hitting before we can trade him.

Pretty much.

The only way he can hit is to play....the only way to play is to hit. David Ross gives this team the extra pop in the lineup.

Tough situation....but it's about playing the best guys that enables the team to win.

pedro
06-04-2006, 01:55 PM
You're taking my post out of context. I can see why, though, to your credit. What I meant to say is that with balls put in play, the catcher spot doesn't factor as much. How's Larue doing in the passed balls category? ;)


That's an old and tired argument IMO. I'll pass.

MaineRed
06-04-2006, 02:29 PM
So, it's okay for Reds managment to say "trade Larue" (they probably have said that), but not RZ posters? What's so "unfair" about it? It's business, pal. The Reds need to cut their losses. I'd say with the production that Larue has given this year, even if he IS a slow starter, is a real loss considering his salary.

Yes, I agree with you that Larue isn't the worst of the defensive players on this club, but he sees a very small percentage of opportunities to handle the ball in comparison to the rest of the defense.

Again, it's about perspective. What one guy considers a large enough sample size, in terms of plate appearance, another guy will not. You can (edit: not) please everyone. I'd say the majority of posters here agree, though, that Larue's time has passed.

Call it aging, "slow starts", newfound competition at the C spot. The fact is that a $4,000,000 salary + worst overall performance amongst the three catchers on the roster, equals "something has to be done with Larue".

I'm going to start at the bottom of your post. Please tell me how the Reds payroll reducing by 4 million gives them a better shot at the play-offs in 2006? If trading Larue and removing his salary opens the door to acquire a 4-5 million dollar upgrade to say, the pitching staff, I'm all for it. But you seem to be saying the Reds are somehow better because of that 4 million dollars being wasted on Larue. If it is going somewhere else, fine but trading Larue for some crappy prospect is not going to help this team this year.

I think Larue has put up a bigger sample size than 6 weeks. He's been giving his heart to this team for the last 7-8 years. He's a leader on the team. As for his slow start, where were you on Hammond's slow start and what was your perspective on his April sample size? Its baseball man. Guys get off to slow starts. Players have extended funks. If Larue is as bad as he has been, he doesn't belong in baseball. If he comes back to his career norms at some point he is going to go on a tear and hit about .300 for 6 or 8 weeks. He was part of one of the most productive catcher tandems last season. You really believe his career hit the skids that fast?

4256 Hits
06-04-2006, 02:32 PM
Nobody. He needs to start hitting before we can trade him.

Yea because all GM's care about is what a player has done the last 30 days rather then the last 3 years.:rolleyes:

Fans overall over estimate how much a players hot or cold streak has on a players trade value. GM's know that players get hot and cold and look at a larger sample size. Just like w/ every good game that Milton pitches fans say trade him before he starts pitching bad again. Other GM's know based on his career that Milton will is a bad pitcher and have no intrest in trading for him even if he just pitched a shut-out.

westofyou
06-04-2006, 02:32 PM
That's an old and tired argument IMO. I'll pass.

Watch out Pedro... he's talking stats.

saboforthird
06-04-2006, 02:57 PM
Watch out Pedro... he's talking stats.

I suppose that's a good thing, yes? :D BTW, I did make an attempt yesterday to support my cause for Ross.

KronoRed
06-04-2006, 03:46 PM
I know, call me crazy.
Crazy

Obviously we should hand the job to Ross, I mean Valentin had a great year last year and he's repeating it..

Oh wait :evil:

Ltlabner
06-04-2006, 03:48 PM
Wait... you have reservations about handing the starting job to a 29 year old, catcher on his 4th organization in 2 years with less than 500 MLB ab's?

WOY...couldn't agree more. I like Ross and what he brings to the table. I also think LaRue could bring the most in trade. HOWEVER, to just jetison LaRue for "a bag of balls" because of a slump and hand the starting catching duties to Ross who doesn't have any longterm track reccord (and I guess forget Javi?) is just plain silly.


How's Larue doing in the passed balls category?

Saboforthrid....LaRue had a whopping 15 in 2004, 6 in 2005 and 2 thus far in 2006. Some might call that "decreasing" so the old PB argument doesn't hold water anymore. BTW, Ross had 8 PB's in 2005. So by my count Ross had more PB's than LaRue last year. The accurate question in that case would be "How's Ross doing in the passed balls category?


David Ross gives this team the extra pop in the lineup.

He does have a higher lifetime SLG of .441 lifetime versus LaRue's .417. Ross has hit 24 HR's in 408AB's or 5.9%. LaRue has hit 79 in 2117AB's or 3.7%. So Ross does have the edge in that catigory. You know what else Ross has the edge in? Strike outs. Ross has 146K's in 408AB's. Or 36% of his AB's end in a strike out. LaRue has K'd 615 times in 2117AB's or 29% of the time. If Ross is anoited catcher will the fans accept even more strike outs that what they are seeing from LaRue? Or will a "trade Ross for a bag of balls" thread be started?

I'm not dumping on Ross. I'd like to see him get some more playing time to see if he can still produce if he's playing more regularly. But to say he's the next big thing when we are basing everything on one hot start to one season (compared to LaRue's miserable start) is unwise.

westofyou
06-04-2006, 03:59 PM
I'm not dumping on Ross. I'd like to see him get some more playing time to see if he can still produce if he's playing more regularly. But to say he's the next big thing when we are basing everything on one hot start to one season (compared to LaRue's miserable start) is unwise.

Kinda like this eh?


SARASOTA, Fla. - Among them, they hit 88 homers and drove in 289 runs last year. The Reds hope for more now that they'll have the chance to play a full season.

Jon Nunnally, Barry Larkin, Reggie Sanders, Willie Greene, Eddie Taubensee and Eduardo Perez - the meat of what is expected to be a pretty potent batting order - may just be what keeps this team afloat.


http://reds.enquirer.com/1998/02/022298_power.html

saboforthird
06-04-2006, 09:12 PM
WOY...couldn't agree more. I like Ross and what he brings to the table. I also think LaRue could bring the most in trade. HOWEVER, to just jetison LaRue for "a bag of balls" because of a slump and hand the starting catching duties to Ross who doesn't have any longterm track reccord (and I guess forget Javi?) is just plain silly.



Saboforthrid....LaRue had a whopping 15 in 2004, 6 in 2005 and 2 thus far in 2006. Some might call that "decreasing" so the old PB argument doesn't hold water anymore. BTW, Ross had 8 PB's in 2005. So by my count Ross had more PB's than LaRue last year. The accurate question in that case would be "How's Ross doing in the passed balls category?



He does have a higher lifetime SLG of .441 lifetime versus LaRue's .417. Ross has hit 24 HR's in 408AB's or 5.9%. LaRue has hit 79 in 2117AB's or 3.7%. So Ross does have the edge in that catigory. You know what else Ross has the edge in? Strike outs. Ross has 146K's in 146AB's. Or 36% of his AB's end in a strike out. LaRue has K'd 615 times in 2117AB's or 29% of the time. If Ross is anoited catcher will the fans accept even more strike outs that what they are seeing from LaRue? Or will a "trade Ross for a bag of balls" thread be started?

I'm not dumping on Ross. I'd like to see him get some more playing time to see if he can still produce if he's playing more regularly. But to say he's the next big thing when we are basing everything on one hot start to one season (compared to LaRue's miserable start) is unwise.

Dude, practically every game Ross is in he demonstrates (whether at the plate, or behind it) why he needs to start over Larue and Valentin. Arroyo is a hell of a pitcher, and the fact that he chose Ross as his personal catcher ought to say something. I can guarantee you it doesn't have a whole lot to do with being best friends or anything. I've seen enough of Ross to know he's the real deal, strikeouts or not.

Joseph
06-04-2006, 09:36 PM
Dude, practically every game Ross is in he demonstrates (whether at the plate, or behind it) why he needs to start over Larue and Valentin. Arroyo is a hell of a pitcher, and the fact that he chose Ross as his personal catcher ought to say something. I can guarantee you it doesn't have a whole lot to do with being best friends or anything. I've seen enough of Ross to know he's the real deal, strikeouts or not.

I don't think he 'chose' him as his personal catcher. Ross got put out there in the last start of ST against the Red Sox with Arroyo pitching because LaRue was injured and they worked well together. Narron kept running him out there while LaRue was hurt and the results do speak for themself, but saying Arroyo chose him is in error in my estimation. It was random chance, had it been a week earlier Sardhina might have been used in that game and this Ross business might never have come to pass.

George Foster
06-04-2006, 09:54 PM
What is the team's ERA with Ross catching compared to LaRue? That is the tale of the tape.

This point is moot. Neither call their own games. Narron calls the pitches.

Newman4
06-05-2006, 08:38 AM
My fear is that the Reds keep waiting for Larue to snap out of his slump and he doesn't and then has less trade value than he does currently, especially around the trade deadline. Right now, many people (including many of you) look at his career numbers and figure he'll improve over the course of the season. However, there's that big contract (see below) that increases if he's traded in the off season. He needs to be traded before the trade deadline, preferably sooner than later or I'm afraid the Reds will be on the hook for 5.2 million for a catcher next season.

Jason LaRue c
2 years/$9.1M (2006-07)

signed extension 12/05, avoided arbitration
06:$3.9M, 07:$5.2M
$0.25M increase in 2007 salary if traded after 10/15/06

1 year/$3M (2005), avoided arbitration 11/04
1 year/$2.6M (2004), re-signed 12/03
1 year/$1.25M (2003); signed 3/02
1 year/$0.305M (2002)
ML service: 5.150